-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 yuppie wrote:
> Tres Seaver wrote: >> Chris Withers wrote: >>> By all means, document virtualenv as an option, but blessing it as "the >>> one true way" is a bit much... > > I'm also surprised that you propose to make this *the* recommended way. > >> Here's my rationale: >> >> - - The docs are intended primarily for folks who want to install and >> run Zope, rather than hack on it. > > So you recommend virtualenv for administrators and buildout for > developers? Or where do you draw the line? And when do you recommend to > switch from one setup to the other? Or do you always recommend virtualenv? I recommend virtualenv to anybody who just wants to install and run the Zope2 appserver, without needing to drink a lot of "kool-aid": just install it from PyPI, run 'mkzopeinstance', and you're done. Note that I specifically remomve the non-virtualenv easy_install docs: I don't want us *ever* to encourage the use of easy_install outside a virtualenv. > I thought zc.buildout is preferred by most people in the Zope community. buildout works for *developers*: it is completely strange for people who just want to install and run Zope. Mixing the buildout version of the installation in with the non-buildout version was a disaster, from a readability standpoint. >> - - zc.buildout is *super* heavyweight compared to virtualenv >> >> - - zc.buildout creates an environment which is puzzling as hell for >> anybody who hasn't already drunk the koolaid ('parts'? 'eggs'? >> WTF?) > > virtualenv is also puzzling if you are not familiar with it. Using > activate and deactivate or the right paths isn't much easier to learn > than using zc.buildout. The environment itself is much closer to what people expect: libraries installed under 'lib/pythonX.Y', scripts in 'bin', headers in 'include', no funky 'parts' or 'eggs' directories, no idea that config files might get blown away just because you update software. I know that some of that is due to popular recipes, but that argument is specious: buildout's value proposition derives in part from the network effect of having those recipes available and widely used. Activate is a completely unnecessary attractive nuisacne: I *never* use it, and I routinely see people who *do* use it end up running from different environments than the ones they think they are running. >> - - virtualenv, or something damn near it, is likely to land in Python >> itself. >> >> - - Nearly anybody else in the Python world is more likely to be >> familiar with the virtualenv stuff than with buildout. > > But not everybody in the Python world is familiar with virtualenv. Why > should we encourage people to make themselves familiar with virtualenv > instead of zc.buildout? I would bet that, outside the Zope community, virtualenv's mindshare is ten times that of buildout. Adding it to the stdlib was actually a topic on the agenda of the pre-PyCon language summit, for instance. >> - - We have two alternate zc.buildout scenarios (install Zope + run >> mkzopeinstance vs. self-contained environment). The first has no >> real advantage over the virtualenv one, except being able to >> run buildout to update the software (heaven help you if you forget >> to configure the index properly!). The second leaves you without >> the annotated config file, a *major* faux pas. > > I consider the self-contained scenario still as experimental. Following > the instructions requires much more typing than the other scenarios. But > I'm optimistic it can and will be improved. The self-contained mode is likely *perfect* for developers who produce a highly-customized bundle o Zope, 3rd party software, and custom code. It just isn't right as the "first choice" for somebody installing Zope for the first time. Tres. - -- =================================================================== Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkuOxiAACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ4UhwCgyb5BGFZD1Lz/9rYLng10ekx8 sk4An2pmynQ8PUZagq1CAbd6+tasXyIj =B00w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )