I'm not sure that "library" or "collection of libraries" is the right term for what we want to be. I think we've been using it because it stands in sharp contrast to "application", which, BTW, isn't exactly what Zope 2 is. I think these terms were useful to make some points, but neither is accurate. FWIW, I have a fairly open mind on this topic. Lots of good points are being made. :)


On Oct 7, 2007, at 5:13 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:

Jim Fulton wrote:
On Oct 7, 2007, at 6:25 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote:
- We need a *realistic* (especially wrt available resources) process
for managing releases.  There are 2 aspects of this.  We shouldn't
make plans for which there aren't enough resources.  We also
shouldn't plan significant tasks that people won't care enough to
work on. I think the classic Zope 3.4 release is a good example of a
large effort that really wouldn't benefit many people, if any.

Do you have a sort explanation on what is the missing resource? Is it,
as it was for 3.3, lack of people-hours with knowledge in fixing the
last bugs?
I'm not entirely sure. I just observe that this doesn't seem to be making much progress.

I think it's one of the drawbacks of taking an ecosystem/libraries approach instead of a application/framework style approach. An application or framework typically is an integrated whole that has a single version number. An ecosystem or set of libraries can be integrated (which Zope 3 is) but everything evolves at different rates and there's no single thing to install or talk about.

I'm not saying an ecosystem approach is bad, if that's what Zope 3 wants to be. I do think that such an approach needs to be supplemented by a framework approach (and I've been putting work into one way to do that).

If Zope 3 is an ecosystem, a "release" of Zope 3 the ecosystem doesn't really make much sense. To follow the comparison with Linux distribution, it's more like a "distribution" of an ecosystem. I'd therefore suggest that the release of Zope 3.4, if it ever actually happens, will be the last release of Zope 3 the application server framework.

I hope that besides Grok, some community will stand up that takes a less radical approach to building an application server on top of the Zope 3 ecosystem. People having existing applications in Zope 3 to maintain (like myself with the Document Library) will have a need for it, and Grok doesn't suit everyone's tastes anyway, especially people comfortable with existing Zope 3 practices. As I said elsewhere, I suggest we call this project not "Zope 3" but something else, to avoid confusion with the Zope ecosystem (and also to avoid implying it's the clear successor to Zope 2. I think we can safely say by now that's not how history went).



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Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation

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