[gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? Once I set this and rebooted I saw several things that needed fixing that I didn't have a clue about: 1-error loading /etc/.../hostname (I had copied it from openSUSE installation instead of following installation instruction, and without reading or saving the existing one) 2-depending on hostname working, syslog-ng fails to start 3-missing mount points As a consequence of my ineptitude (and prior to reading http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/FQDN) I did emerge -s hostname, found a package by that name, and chose to emerge it. 30 minutes later, it and 3 dep packages were still compiling, lots lots longer than a kernel compile. :-( -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]: Optimal formatting a SDcard (64GB) with partions of diffent sizes and filesystems?
Fernando Rodriguez frodriguez.develo...@outlook.com [15-08-08 05:43]: On Friday, August 07, 2015 9:44:50 PM meino.cra...@gmx.de wrote: Mick michaelkintz...@gmail.com [15-08-07 20:04]: On Friday 07 Aug 2015 04:27:15 Fernando Rodriguez wrote: On Thursday, August 06, 2015 6:18:59 PM meino.cra...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, for my tablet PC I used a used 32GB FAT32 formatted SDcard. The formatting was already done by the manufacturer. Then I screwed it up and had to do the partioning and formatting myself again. No big deal, I thought -- and was wrong. Yes, the thing I got could be read and written. But it was DAMN slow in comparison to the original formatting. I googled and found a description, which described exactly, what I wanted: An optimal formatting for one big FAT32 partion. I did it again ;) and: TADA! The speed was back. LINK:http://zero1-st.blogspot.de/2012/05/formatting-fat32-volumes-larger- than.html Now I need the something identical but explained in a way that it can be successfully applied to any partion layout and any SDcard size. Currently the new SDcard has 64GB (yes, the tablet eats that size well :) and needs at least two partions: One FAT32 and one ext4. May be that I need a different layout later. To what aspect and logic do I have to keep my eyes on, when it comes partioning/formatting any SDcard size with any partion layout and any filesystem? Thank you very much in advance for any help! Best regards, Meino I wrote a long reply to this and it appears to have been swallowed by /dev/null. SD cards don't have 128K blocks. Except for the very early ones (standard capacity), they are divided in allocation units (AU) that are 1MB to 4MB for SDHC and even larger for SDXC. The only way to get that value is by reading a register in the card (so you can't do it in usermode on linux). The AUs are divided into Recording Units (RUs). The size of these can be deduced from the card speed class (that's the number inside the C on the label), and the card capacity. For class 2 and 4 if the card is less than 1GB it's 16KB, otherwise it's 32KB. For class 6 it is 64KB, and for class 10 it's 512KB. After an AU is erased you can write to any of the free RUs in any order in blocks of 512 bytes sequentially (the block size is configurable by the driver but 512 is the most common). But if you write to a nonfree RU then all non- free RU get copied to a new AU. So the performance hit depends on how many non-free RUs are in the AU when this happens. So to get the best performance you need to align the first FAT cluster on an AU boundary and that the RUs used by the reserved sectors after the FAT are free. This is not so easy from usermode because you can't get the AU size and you can't erase the AU to make sure reserved sectors are free. The Windows 7 and later format utility will do it if you don't partition the card. The next best thing is to align it to an RU which should be pretty easy. You could guess the AU size by writting blocks of RU size from the start of the card and timing it. Every time you hit the AU boundary there will be a longer delay. For more details see the SD specification (chapter 4.13). https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/pls/ They also have formatter tools for Windows and OSX. I tried the Windows version years ago but had problems with it (can't remember what). Excellent information Fernando, thank you! So there is no tool for me to use to read the AU/RU on the chip? Hi, sorry for being a little late...was too busy and my sdcard is still not formatted... ;) Thank you very much for the help and all the informations. Currently I start to understand the problems and solutions in formatting ONE partition with a FAT32 filesystem on a sdcard the correct way, but when it comes to more the one partition and filesystems for example like ext4fs I still dont know how to... Just a few minutes before I found this: http://www.bradfordembedded.com/2014/05/flashbenching/ http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_to_Damage_a_FLASH_Storage_Device https://github.com/bradfa/flashbench http://wiki.laptop.org/go/SDCard_Testing https://lists.linaro.org/pipermail/flashbench-results/ https://blogofterje.wordpress.com/2012/01/14/optimizing-fs-on-sd-card/ I am still in the process of reading and hopefully understanding this... Best regards, Meino For partitioning just account for the offset of the 1st partition when calculating the number of reserved sectors and make the FAT partition the first partition. If the MBR pushes the FAT beyond the number of AUs that it would otherwise occupy I would
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Saturday 08 Aug 2015 07:57:29 Felix Miata wrote: I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? It used to be the default, but a 4-5 years ago it changed. I think the devs decided to change sysvinit, probably for security reasons. Once I set this and rebooted I saw several things that needed fixing that I didn't have a clue about: 1-error loading /etc/.../hostname (I had copied it from openSUSE installation instead of following installation instruction, and without reading or saving the existing one) 2-depending on hostname working, syslog-ng fails to start 3-missing mount points As a consequence of my ineptitude (and prior to reading http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/FQDN) This is a really old archive, so anything you read there should not be taken as gospel, it may well have been deprecated. The current Gentoo wiki is at: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page I did emerge -s hostname, found a package by that name, and chose to emerge it. 30 minutes later, it and 3 dep packages were still compiling, lots lots longer than a kernel compile. :-( -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Saturday, August 08, 2015 2:57:29 AM Felix Miata wrote: I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? Because it's your choice (and your job) to set it or not. Gentoo is not a distro per se, it' more of a set of tools to help you build your own system. In most cases it provides whatever upstream ships with only patches and fixes as needed. There's also a logging setting on rc.conf that logs the boot process. The rest of your problems where due to failure to follow the handbook. Once I set this and rebooted I saw several things that needed fixing that I didn't have a clue about: 1-error loading /etc/.../hostname (I had copied it from openSUSE installation instead of following installation instruction, and without reading or saving the existing one) 2-depending on hostname working, syslog-ng fails to start 3-missing mount points As a consequence of my ineptitude (and prior to reading http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/FQDN) I did emerge -s hostname, found a package by that name, and chose to emerge it. 30 minutes later, it and 3 dep packages were still compiling, lots lots longer than a kernel compile. :-( -- Fernando Rodriguez
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
Fernando Rodriguez composed on 2015-08-08 03:43 (UTC-0400): Felix Miata wrote: I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? Because it's your choice (and your job) to set it or not. Gentoo is not a distro per se, it' more of a set of tools to help you build your own system. In most cases it provides whatever upstream ships with only patches and fixes as needed. Understood, but there were actually two questions posed. You seem to have answered only the second. Maybe Mick's answer addresses the first. There's also a logging setting on rc.conf that logs the boot process. That's not an automatic tickler, only a log. Clearing tty1's init messages has never ever made sense to me. IOW, they get put there by default, so why not leave them there by default? If upstream's responsible for the default clearing, why did it so choose? The rest of your problems where due to failure to follow the handbook. But did I need to emerge dev-haskell/hostname, or was another hostname function already part of the base, and the haskell one something more or different from built in? -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Saturday, August 08, 2015 4:45:06 AM Felix Miata wrote: Fernando Rodriguez composed on 2015-08-08 03:43 (UTC-0400): Felix Miata wrote: I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? Because it's your choice (and your job) to set it or not. Gentoo is not a distro per se, it' more of a set of tools to help you build your own system. In most cases it provides whatever upstream ships with only patches and fixes as needed. Understood, but there were actually two questions posed. You seem to have answered only the second. Maybe Mick's answer addresses the first. There's also a logging setting on rc.conf that logs the boot process. That's not an automatic tickler, only a log. Clearing tty1's init messages has never ever made sense to me. IOW, they get put there by default, so why not leave them there by default? If upstream's responsible for the default clearing, why did it so choose? Actually that one's provided by gentoo, point was it's just a preference, I like it the way it is. Maybe some consider it a security issue as Mick stated (I don't think it is). The rest of your problems where due to failure to follow the handbook. But did I need to emerge dev-haskell/hostname, or was another hostname function already part of the base, and the haskell one something more or different from built in? No, you just needed to set it like you did (if you followed the wiki that you posted, it's also in the handbook). I believe that file is part of openrc but it doesn't get overwritten if you reinstall the package (none of the files on /etc do). You need to run etc-update after emerging to update those files. -- Fernando Rodriguez
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Saturday, August 08, 2015 4:55:03 AM Fernando Rodriguez wrote: On Saturday, August 08, 2015 4:45:06 AM Felix Miata wrote: Fernando Rodriguez composed on 2015-08-08 03:43 (UTC-0400): Felix Miata wrote: I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? Because it's your choice (and your job) to set it or not. Gentoo is not a distro per se, it' more of a set of tools to help you build your own system. In most cases it provides whatever upstream ships with only patches and fixes as needed. Understood, but there were actually two questions posed. You seem to have answered only the second. Maybe Mick's answer addresses the first. There's also a logging setting on rc.conf that logs the boot process. That's not an automatic tickler, only a log. Clearing tty1's init messages has never ever made sense to me. IOW, they get put there by default, so why not leave them there by default? If upstream's responsible for the default clearing, why did it so choose? Actually that one's provided by gentoo, point was it's just a preference, I like it the way it is. Maybe some consider it a security issue as Mick stated (I don't think it is). The rest of your problems where due to failure to follow the handbook. But did I need to emerge dev-haskell/hostname, or was another hostname function already part of the base, and the haskell one something more or different from built in? No, you just needed to set it like you did (if you followed the wiki that you posted, it's also in the handbook). I believe that file is part of openrc but it doesn't get overwritten if you reinstall the package (none of the files on /etc do). You need to run etc-update after emerging to update those files. To remove safely now you should run: emerge --deselect dev-haskell/hostname followed by: emerge --depclean That will remove it only if it's not needed by some other package. -- Fernando Rodriguez
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 05:13:06 -0400, Fernando Rodriguez wrote: To remove safely now you should run: emerge --deselect dev-haskell/hostname followed by: emerge --depclean That will remove it only if it's not needed by some other package. Or emerge --depclean --ask --verbose dev-haskell/hostname easier to type version emerge -cav dev-haskell/hostname -- Neil Bothwick A printer consists of three main parts: the case, the jammed paper tray and the blinking red light. pgp21oPEpE61G.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 02:57:29 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? It doesn't matter, it's just a default. This is Gentoo, it works how you tell it to work. That particular setting is even mentioned n the elog output. Once I set this and rebooted I saw several things that needed fixing that I didn't have a clue about: You really should enable logging to /var/log/rc.log and get into the habit of checking it when rebooting after a change. I always check it after booting a new kernel for instance. -- Neil Bothwick Dyslexics of the world, untie! pgpIPyrXFB_DH.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On 08/08/2015 14:23, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 05:13:06 -0400, Fernando Rodriguez wrote: To remove safely now you should run: emerge --deselect dev-haskell/hostname followed by: emerge --depclean That will remove it only if it's not needed by some other package. Or emerge --depclean --ask --verbose dev-haskell/hostname easier to type version emerge -cav dev-haskell/hostname Then install eix to hugely simplify the search process that should have been done as step 1. eix hostname would have immediately shown that it is a Haskell package and unsuitable. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 20:32:48 -0500, J. Rutkowski wrote: There was no installer other than the handbook. There was the former Gentoo installer project [1] but it was discontinued in 2009. The source is still available [2] You have taken my statement out of context. It looks like I was saying there was no installer at all, when the original post was clearly discussing installation from the old GRP discs, which did not have an installer. -- Neil Bothwick Beware! The end is... aaarrgh! pgpZU18Q4GRUv.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On 08/08/2015 14:26, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 02:57:29 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? It doesn't matter, it's just a default. This is Gentoo, it works how you tell it to work. That particular setting is even mentioned n the elog output. I think Felix still has quite a bit of the SuSE/RHEL/Fedora/Ubuntu mindset. Those distros do a lot of hand-holding, a lot of trying to figure out what you mean, and take pride in delivering a full complete consistent experience (whatever that is). Gentoo has no truck with such things. The software is what it is, and if the user doesn't like what is provided, the user must change it because the dev ain't gonna. Just like Slackware come to think of it. The Gentoo approach is that the user already knows what he/she wants and knows how to get it. This is a perfectly valid approach - Gentoo users rapidly move from n00b status to a different status of having a good idea what they want. So the vast majority of Gentoo usage is done with that knowledge in place, and very little usage is done in a state of I don't yet know what I'm doing. This is what amuses me so much about efforts to make Gentoo more user-friendly - whatever that is. Our devs cater to the overwhelming majority case, and helpful guides on how to get there are at a minimum. I like this approach for the same reason I prefer Linux over Windows. Gentoo assumes I have a brain and can use it, and do not need to be treated like a clueless n00b form now till the end of time. I find that very validative and empowering, even though the prove I had to pay was 6 weeks of being mostly confused while getting up to speed. And that was 10 years ago. Once I set this and rebooted I saw several things that needed fixing that I didn't have a clue about: You really should enable logging to /var/log/rc.log and get into the habit of checking it when rebooting after a change. I always check it after booting a new kernel for instance. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
[gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
J. Rutkowski jrtk at kow.io writes: There was no installer other than the handbook. OOppssee there was I have several images:: livecd-amd64-installer-2008.0-r1.iso There was the former Gentoo installer project [1] but it was discontinued in 2009. The source is still available [2] [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Installer/Old [2] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/gli.git/about/ Yes the second link look to have some/all(?) the sources. My GIT (kunf_fu) is more like Kung_pow_chicken. I doubt that archive was origially on GIT? Anyway could somebody post the steps to download/replicate the entire rep0, say into a dir (/usr/local/portage/app-install/) Just to make sure I dont screw things up a bit. I also have many old (iso) images I found squirrelled away on my systems. I do not know about these images, but they seem to be OK? http://www.filewatcher.com/m/livecd-i686-installer-2008.0-r1.iso.721944576-0.html Also, if you read muffblaster's pages, another dev was working on the installer as recent at june 2015, in bash. He announced as the other dev stopped working on the installer. J. Rutkowski THANKS! James
[gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On 2015-08-08, Felix Miata mrma...@earthlink.net wrote: I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? Yep, I find it infuriating that by default all distros seem to go to great effort to hide as much information about the boot/startup process as possible. WTF? Do they think that stuff is top secret or something? Are they afraid they'll lose their jobs if that info gets out? -- Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 16:00:29 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: Yep, I find it infuriating that by default all distros seem to go to great effort to hide as much information about the boot/startup process as possible. WTF? Do they think that stuff is top secret or something? Are they afraid they'll lose their jobs if that info gets out? No, they think that the type of user they are trying to attract is likely to be scared off by all that cryptic text scrolling by. They are probably right. Gentoo doesn't hide it, it merely clears the screen once the boot has completed successfully. If the boot halts, you can see where and, usually, why it stopped. Try that with openUbundora. -- Neil Bothwick If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is he homeless or naked? pgpxwUxuKdmXU.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 19:41:27 -0400 Rich Freeman ri...@gentoo.org wrote: The next big change is likely to be virtualizing openrc so that it can be uninstalled, and possibly not including it in the stage3, but that hasn't really even been seriously discussed. (Virtualizing it seems almost certain to happen (IMHO) once the blockers are fixed, I just noticed that net-misc/netifrc installs two systemd service files, which puzzled me. Is this in preparation for virtualizing openrc?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Saturday 08 Aug 2015 18:02:00 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 16:00:29 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: Yep, I find it infuriating that by default all distros seem to go to great effort to hide as much information about the boot/startup process as possible. WTF? Do they think that stuff is top secret or something? Are they afraid they'll lose their jobs if that info gets out? No, they think that the type of user they are trying to attract is likely to be scared off by all that cryptic text scrolling by. They are probably right. Gentoo doesn't hide it, it merely clears the screen once the boot has completed successfully. If the boot halts, you can see where and, usually, why it stopped. Try that with openUbundora. Also on a server console you may not want anyone walking by to see what services you're running, what your IP address is, what NFS it's connecting to, etc. Of course, for a home PC with a single user these concerns do not apply. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards at gmail.com writes: I don't get why any distro leaves this out, why anyone wouldn't like to automatically notice while booting any announcement that something failed, especially someone who has just gotten a new installation up for the first times. Why isn't --noclear set by default? +1 Yep, I find it infuriating that by default all distros seem to go to great effort to hide as much information about the boot/startup process as possible. WTF? Do they think that stuff is top secret or something? Are they afraid they'll lose their jobs if that info gets out? ++1 It's even worse than you guys have stated. There is code often referred to as netconsol:: I was/is wonderful for streaming concurrent detail about a system during install, as soon as the ethernet interface is set:: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/networking/netconsole.txt I'm not sure why it's not part of most installation semenatics:: I have posted numerous times to numerous forums about it and nothing ever happens. So now I have just decided to develop my own gentoo installation semantics. Dont misunderstand my position:: I think all those folks that have writen/removed coded from the kernel and the distros are well intentioned and honest folks. But, when you add up the entire ecosystem of what's going on (insert your favorite conspiracy theories, as you like) the days of average users being able to efficiently use open source *nix technologies is fading fast. So like Alan has said (and many others) there is *no we* in nix unless your or I step up. Fair enough! :: git clone --bare https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/gli.gitCloning into bare repository 'gli.git'... fatal: repository 'https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/gli.git/' not found It'd be wonderfully appreciated if somebody (anybody) has those old installer sources anywhere I can replicate them for tweaking. Note:: I intend to work on a variety of install semantics. ALL are welcome to help, guide, critisize and encourage me on this journey! Beware:: I'm old, crotchitee, dumb, dense etc etc, and those are my better qualities. My intentions are well intentioned. (off to hoop_it_up to relieve some stress!) If/when we get an installer(s) working for the commoners, we should start a gentoo-install reflector so as to not hassle the gentoo_user experts that do not believe in automated gentoo installs. These 'experts' are really wonderful folks that have answered thosands of questions over the years for folks:: and I thank them for that. But supporting the noob installers is more a job for the post_noob_installers who just maybe are able to present a kinder_gentler_mo_practical face on automated installation support. PEACE, James sincerely, James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 1:05 PM, walt w41...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 19:41:27 -0400 Rich Freeman ri...@gentoo.org wrote: The next big change is likely to be virtualizing openrc so that it can be uninstalled, and possibly not including it in the stage3, but that hasn't really even been seriously discussed. (Virtualizing it seems almost certain to happen (IMHO) once the blockers are fixed, I just noticed that net-misc/netifrc installs two systemd service files, which puzzled me. Is this in preparation for virtualizing openrc? I doubt there is any relationship with that. I imagine it is so that you can still use netifrc to manage your interfaces under systemd. -- Rich
[gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
James wireless at tampabay.rr.com writes: there is *no we* in nix unless your or I step up. Fair enough! :: git clone --bare https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/gli.gitCloning into bare repository 'gli.git'... fatal: repository 'https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/gli.git/' not found It'd be wonderfully appreciated if somebody (anybody) has those old installer sources anywhere I can replicate them for tweaking. SVEN created a wonderful repositor of old portage snapshots:: http://blog.siphos.be/2013/12/upgrading-old-gentoo-installations/ But, alas it has disappeared too? Granted the posted reason is a failure of guidexml: Resource unavailable The requested resource uses Gentoo's retired web publication system GuideXML. As support for GuideXML was disabled on May 18, 2015, the resource can not be displayed. We hope the author provides an updated version soon. So there is no other way to publish archived portage tree snapshots? Really? Gentoo devs should at least appreciate the frustration the gentoo_commoners experience:: since it looks like the only automated installer we're going to get on gentoo is DYI I'm ok with that but the simplest path (IMHO) is to just start off where the 2009 installer left off. After all, all the brilliant minds say that it cannot be be or should not be done (create and automated gentoo installer). James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Fri, Aug 07, 2015 at 07:41:27PM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote: So, I don't know if that makes you more or less worried, but nothing has really changed in the last year on the systemd front. The next big change is likely to be virtualizing openrc so that it can be uninstalled, and possibly not including it in the stage3, but that hasn't really even been seriously discussed. (Virtualizing it seems almost certain to happen (IMHO) once the blockers are fixed, removing it may or may not happen, and probably isn't all that important, though I'd argue that people running chroots or containers might not want an init implementation inside.) -- Rich The virtual already exists (virtual/service-manager). I personally have openrc and netifrc masked and uninstalled on my machines due to my Ivory Tower purist nature. Alec
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
2015-08-08 11:02 GMT-06:00 Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk: Gentoo doesn't hide it, it merely clears the screen once the boot has completed successfully. If the boot halts, you can see where and, usually, why it stopped. Try that with openUbundora. Most splash screens I've seen, can change back to the init boot log by pressing Tab or Alt+Tab(One of those), this has worked for me across 'openUbundora'.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Mick michaelkintz...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday 08 Aug 2015 18:02:00 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 16:00:29 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: Yep, I find it infuriating that by default all distros seem to go to great effort to hide as much information about the boot/startup process as possible. WTF? Do they think that stuff is top secret or something? Are they afraid they'll lose their jobs if that info gets out? No, they think that the type of user they are trying to attract is likely to be scared off by all that cryptic text scrolling by. They are probably right. Gentoo doesn't hide it, it merely clears the screen once the boot has completed successfully. If the boot halts, you can see where and, usually, why it stopped. Try that with openUbundora. Also on a server console you may not want anyone walking by to see what services you're running, what your IP address is, what NFS it's connecting to, etc. Of course, for a home PC with a single user these concerns do not apply. -- Regards, Mick There's no viable security benefit from not having it visible. On a server console, there shouldn't be anyone with physical access to the display, the rack it's mounted in, and for that matter, the data center itself, that can't be trusted with being aware of a general sense of what a given server runs. If someone can stand and read your server console without garnering any notice, they can plug a USB in, reboot to it, and have half your files before you figure out why your web server stopped answering. For that matter, all they *have* to do is plug that in, reboot to it, and have it built to load *their* kernel and *your* user space, with patched kernel that slowly siphons off data at a rate you don't notice, from within the kernel. If you don't trust the people who have physical access to your systems, you cannot trust your systems, period. Yes, there are ways to prevent even that attack, but the most viable one is a locked door, requiring more authentication than a simple mechanical lock, between them and the system. If it's shared hosting, lock your rack when you're not in front of it, padlock the server case itself closed (and buy a server that has a proper, functional, user-space watchable chassis intrusion switch), run uefi/secureboot with only your key white-listed, lock down booting to only your privately signed kernel, and for the sake of paranoia... turn off your monitor when you're not in front of it. Hiding warnings and errors from yourself during boot that might tip you off to a real security issue does more to cause risk than mitigate it. Since shared hosting means the network itself (unless you have a completely captive network within your, locked, rack) is uncontrolled, details like what services you're running and what NFS shares you're connecting to are as good as public knowledge anyhow. As for when/where/why it was introduced, it showed up in agetty in the util-linux github in May 2011 [1], and included in the release of agetty 2.20 or so, and there's a mention of it in a mailing list [2], to which the reasoning is given as: I've backported this from our mingetty due to several bug reports from data protection officers of our customers. - Dr. Werner Fink | 2 Sep 12:43 2011 So it was prompted by a perceived security issue, but I would happily sit down with any of the DPOs involved in that to hear just how that little bandaid fixes any of the real security issues involved ;) [1] https://github.com/karelzak/util-linux/commit/e85281a8ac887a35a78f4b43e4755a44aecc2fb7 [2] http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.utilities.util-linux-ng/4685 -- Joshua M. Murphy
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
Neil Bothwick composed on 2015-08-08 18:02 (UTC+0100): On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 16:00:29 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: Yep, I find it infuriating that by default all distros seem to go to great effort to hide as much information about the boot/startup process as possible. WTF? Do they think that stuff is top secret or something? Are they afraid they'll lose their jobs if that info gets out? No, they think that the type of user they are trying to attract is likely to be scared off by all that cryptic text scrolling by. They are probably right. Gentoo doesn't hide it, it merely clears the screen once the boot has completed successfully. Clear happens so quickly the messages may as well have never been there. I get to see first maybe 4 or 5 if I don't blink at the wrong time. If the boot halts, you can see where and, usually, why it stopped. Try that with openUbundora. I'm not sure Fedostemdtering hasn't incorporated noclear for tty1 by default. I dislike Anaconda, so don't install it often, preferring to upgrade with Yum-DNF. I just booted an F23 installation that didn't clear, but I can't say that wasn't because I long ago reconfigured systemd. openSUSE has been my distro of choice since before it was born, as SuSE 8.2. Except for a period of transitioning from sysvinit to systemd[1], noclear has been always its default for *getty on tty1. To actually have all the init messages reach tty1 requires eliminating splash=silent and/or quiet from boot stanza, but that's easy rote during its installer's bootloader configuration step, and easily doable on the fly in Grub GFXboot if overlooked during installation. [1] https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=721660 -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
[gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 08/08/2015 01:37 PM, James wrote: James wireless at tampabay.rr.com writes: there is *no we* in nix unless your or I step up. Fair enough! :: git clone --bare https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/gli.gitCloning into bare repository 'gli.git'... fatal: repository 'https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/gli.git/' not found It'd be wonderfully appreciated if somebody (anybody) has those old installer sources anywhere I can replicate them for tweaking. SVEN created a wonderful repositor of old portage snapshots:: http://blog.siphos.be/2013/12/upgrading-old-gentoo-installations/ But, alas it has disappeared too? Granted the posted reason is a failure of guidexml: Resource unavailable The requested resource uses Gentoo's retired web publication system GuideXML. As support for GuideXML was disabled on May 18, 2015, the resource can not be displayed. We hope the author provides an updated version soon. So there is no other way to publish archived portage tree snapshots? Really? Gentoo devs should at least appreciate the frustration the gentoo_commoners experience:: since it looks like the only automated installer we're going to get on gentoo is DYI I'm ok with that but the simplest path (IMHO) is to just start off where the 2009 installer left off. After all, all the brilliant minds say that it cannot be be or should not be done (create and automated gentoo installer). James Until Sven updates his code to not use GuideXML, I have linked to his snapshots in my own devspace, under http://dev.gentoo.org/~jcallen/snapshots/. The snapshots go back to 2008-01-20, and are current to 2015-07-20. - -- Jonathan Callen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVxlRSAAoJEEIQbvYRB3mgTZkQAM5uYkuMIb9EETwv2U/AVcij c3VBLrd7pjC0IuN2f3sf4mMKJ7FG712Ixo1tO0Kwxzz0Mxr++99Gt3nk5cqcHkIj tnde8Gr5LeVfExkF78xoVtSaVxtowsr84Ntynn+qgu9SuoFdhS6QtFvlalI5SeYG QASs+Q6ABrcmmE+Uw1hFk3sSzn5M3/VBxsgdxbGQac75CXPz2Kj2sUk7edBNakIa aG5z+pn7m9yxSWRslK/zv/y3E7s26gXXJQNXbOMeG1iY8PW7PQw8PfzZh14RiQGU 4LKW7YRCGlLxGW4D5o7XMI4rluMe9MjY/yWPiFx9re0PgxGLHe84nrtxa17Barbv swfrO4OdRTAR6Rl3Pb5RNlI52Ir5AkLA7eiyOgfxioAgaLITRA4qHx72rft4sb+P f97BxdXq4Bpp6sj1hOsqOS2vuYELx+5ijyUNS7yU4tH2QWyjmM7IBRP2AxKREr9x kHHz8bZQ0VIfMmITF3ajpaC8CGhewVXKywWCPzeCfuXpN0C3xr1s0tz64e9Xi1UR tYGI13Lo/89s2Q7DoeAFWU2Y+McMuqwmn4qCAGuRYqqkM3KO5Aqn3Zf7+rliDKs8 vvPnhQdB60KezYU74YGOngT6NtbBmsRFiCi1gpjlhi4SIbULWDDLN5mylNzca93H 0xb/yMdQv3BejipWNyLk =gdnT -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Poison BL. poiso...@gmail.com wrote: So it was prompted by a perceived security issue, but I would happily sit down with any of the DPOs involved in that to hear just how that little bandaid fixes any of the real security issues involved ;) -- Joshua M. Murphy Actually, now I recall what the actual issue is/was that prompted it. While there's no reasonable security issue from the information left over by the startup script output, the change was (if I recall from reading about it back then) addressing the data left on screen after a user session, which very much would fall under the scope of the data protection officers mentioned above. When launched from init, as agetty is, there's no sensible way to track whether it's being launched the first time after boot, or relaunched after the end of a previous session, hence the terminal clear by default. -- Joshua M. Murphy
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 08.08.2015 um 19:05 schrieb walt: I just noticed that net-misc/netifrc installs two systemd service files, which puzzled me. Is this in preparation for virtualizing openrc? This is to provide systemd users with the corresponding service files like OpenRC users get the necessary init scripts. Both are installed by netifrc and other packages. That's why I set: INSTALL_MASK=/lib/systemd /lib32/systemd /lib64/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib32/systemd /usr/lib64/systemd /etc/systemd I don't use systemd, so I don't need and want those files. That said, I don't mind if systemd users get their service files like OpenRC users get their init scripts, but I don't let portage install the systemd related files on my system. I think this should actually be handled by USE=-systemd, and not by INSTALL_MASK. On the other hand maybe there should be a USE flag openrc which handles the installation of init scripts and OpenRC related stuff for people who want to use systemd instead of OpenRC.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: I think this should actually be handled by USE=-systemd, and not by INSTALL_MASK. This was the subject of extensive discussion and a council decision. The rationale for not configuring the installing of small files via a USE flag is that it would greatly increase the number of packages that would depend on that flag, and then when a user swtiches their configuration they're rebuilding half their system just for the sake of a few dozen single-inode files. If people want to set install masks they can. However, this will come at the cost of having to rebuild half your system later if you change your mind. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 08.08.2015 um 21:30 schrieb Rich Freeman: This was the subject of extensive discussion and a council decision. The rationale for not configuring the installing of small files via a USE flag is that it would greatly increase the number of packages that would depend on that flag, and then when a user swtiches their configuration they're rebuilding half their system just for the sake of a few dozen single-inode files. If people want to set install masks they can. However, this will come at the cost of having to rebuild half your system later if you change your mind. And what's the difference if I have to rebuild half my system because of a USE flag or because of an INSTALL_MASK? The USE flag has the advantage that the necessary packages are automatically re-emerged by emerge -uDN @world if I would change my mind later.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: Am 08.08.2015 um 21:30 schrieb Rich Freeman: This was the subject of extensive discussion and a council decision. The rationale for not configuring the installing of small files via a USE flag is that it would greatly increase the number of packages that would depend on that flag, and then when a user swtiches their configuration they're rebuilding half their system just for the sake of a few dozen single-inode files. If people want to set install masks they can. However, this will come at the cost of having to rebuild half your system later if you change your mind. And what's the difference if I have to rebuild half my system because of a USE flag or because of an INSTALL_MASK? It is recommended that users not set an INSTALL_MASK, so you won't have to rebuild anything if you don't do that. If you care that much about inodes I'd probably get rid of /usr/portage before /usr/lib/systemd. :) On the other hand, setting USE=systemd when you don't intend to use systemd is going to be more invasive in general for the packages that use that flag. So, you probably wouldn't want to do that. I'm sure there were about 85 posts on the lists taking your side when this was debated before. I'd suggest looking up the threads (about two years ago I think) rather than recreating them. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On 08/08/2015 22:02, Rich Freeman wrote: On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: Am 08.08.2015 um 21:30 schrieb Rich Freeman: This was the subject of extensive discussion and a council decision. The rationale for not configuring the installing of small files via a USE flag is that it would greatly increase the number of packages that would depend on that flag, and then when a user swtiches their configuration they're rebuilding half their system just for the sake of a few dozen single-inode files. If people want to set install masks they can. However, this will come at the cost of having to rebuild half your system later if you change your mind. And what's the difference if I have to rebuild half my system because of a USE flag or because of an INSTALL_MASK? It is recommended that users not set an INSTALL_MASK, so you won't have to rebuild anything if you don't do that. If you care that much about inodes I'd probably get rid of /usr/portage before /usr/lib/systemd. :) On the other hand, setting USE=systemd when you don't intend to use systemd is going to be more invasive in general for the packages that use that flag. So, you probably wouldn't want to do that. I'm sure there were about 85 posts on the lists taking your side when this was debated before. I'd suggest looking up the threads (about two years ago I think) rather than recreating them. Two years? Was it that long ago? Feels like yesterday. I recall the discussion well, and it was not pleasant. The only real voice of sanity throughout was the final statement by the Council, who very wisely shut up right until the end when it was obvious a definitive decision was needed. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Saturday, August 08, 2015 2:26:50 PM Alan McKinnon wrote: On 08/08/2015 14:23, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 05:13:06 -0400, Fernando Rodriguez wrote: To remove safely now you should run: emerge --deselect dev-haskell/hostname followed by: emerge --depclean That will remove it only if it's not needed by some other package. Or emerge --depclean --ask --verbose dev-haskell/hostname easier to type version emerge -cav dev-haskell/hostname Then install eix to hugely simplify the search process that should have been done as step 1. eix hostname would have immediately shown that it is a Haskell package and unsuitable. And don't forget gentoolkit, so next time you screw up a config file instead of guessing it, you can easily find out which package provides it with: equery belongs file -- Fernando Rodriguez
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Alan McKinnon wrote: On 08/08/2015 22:02, Rich Freeman wrote: It is recommended that users not set an INSTALL_MASK, so you won't have to rebuild anything if you don't do that. If you care that much about inodes I'd probably get rid of /usr/portage before /usr/lib/systemd. :) On the other hand, setting USE=systemd when you don't intend to use systemd is going to be more invasive in general for the packages that use that flag. So, you probably wouldn't want to do that. I'm sure there were about 85 posts on the lists taking your side when this was debated before. I'd suggest looking up the threads (about two years ago I think) rather than recreating them. Two years? Was it that long ago? Feels like yesterday. I recall the discussion well, and it was not pleasant. The only real voice of sanity throughout was the final statement by the Council, who very wisely shut up right until the end when it was obvious a definitive decision was needed. I think I found it. The thread's subject line appears to be: Making systemd more accessible to normal users The date is about May 2013. At least that is the only thread I can find here locally. My archives go back to around June 2009. I searched for both phrases INSTALL_MASK and USE=systemd. If someone wants to go dig on Gmane or something, at least you know the subject line to search for and a somewhat good time frame. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:28:00 PM Mick wrote: On Saturday 08 Aug 2015 18:02:00 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 16:00:29 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: Yep, I find it infuriating that by default all distros seem to go to great effort to hide as much information about the boot/startup process as possible. WTF? Do they think that stuff is top secret or something? Are they afraid they'll lose their jobs if that info gets out? No, they think that the type of user they are trying to attract is likely to be scared off by all that cryptic text scrolling by. They are probably right. Gentoo doesn't hide it, it merely clears the screen once the boot has completed successfully. If the boot halts, you can see where and, usually, why it stopped. Try that with openUbundora. Also on a server console you may not want anyone walking by to see what services you're running, what your IP address is, what NFS it's connecting to, etc. Of course, for a home PC with a single user these concerns do not apply. Besides the point that a server don't usually have a display attached and don't sit somewhere where people can just walk by, most of that data is network discoverable. Plus if you want to intrude you don't really target a specific box but specific services. So I don't see the security problem. I do see the privacy issue that Poison mentioned but I think it's the user reponsibility not to leave sensitive data on screen. I like it the way it is but that's only because it looks prettier :) -- Fernando Rodriguez
[gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 15:21:07 -0400 Poison BL. poiso...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Poison BL. poiso...@gmail.com wrote: So it was prompted by a perceived security issue, but I would happily sit down with any of the DPOs involved in that to hear just how that little bandaid fixes any of the real security issues involved ;) -- Joshua M. Murphy Actually, now I recall what the actual issue is/was that prompted it. While there's no reasonable security issue from the information left over by the startup script output, the change was (if I recall from reading about it back then) addressing the data left on screen after a user session, which very much would fall under the scope of the data protection officers mentioned above. When launched from init, as agetty is, there's no sensible way to track whether it's being launched the first time after boot, or relaunched after the end of a previous session, hence the terminal clear by default. That's why I added this file (can't remember where I got the idea): cat ~/.bash_logout clear I suppose some equivalent mechanism could be added for every possible shell, which would be a headache for someone :)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:21:12 -0600, Jc García wrote: Gentoo doesn't hide it, it merely clears the screen once the boot has completed successfully. If the boot halts, you can see where and, usually, why it stopped. Try that with openUbundora. Most splash screens I've seen, can change back to the init boot log by pressing Tab or Alt+Tab(One of those), this has worked for me across 'openUbundora'. Yes you can, Esc also works, but how many of their target uses know that? All they see is a pretty splash screen and nothing happening. Having discovered that Linux doesn't work, they scurry back to Windows. -- Neil Bothwick Women live longer than men because they have so many clothes that they wouldn't be caught dead in. pgpgnU0HHPDkf.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-user] Re: why --noclear not set on tty1 in default /etc/inittab?
Jonathan Callen jcallen at gentoo.org writes: Until Sven updates his code to not use GuideXML, I have linked to his snapshots in my own devspace, under http://dev.gentoo.org/~jcallen/snapshots/. The snapshots go back to 2008-01-20, and are current to 2015-07-20. downloading now. thx James
