Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles [Summary]
On 5/15/04 6:42 AM, Scott Haneda wrote: I wanted to post in detail my experience and what I consider to be a acceptable solution to me in regards to anti-aliased issued with Entourage 2004. I have summarized in this link: http://newgeo.com/monaco/ Thanks to everyone who helped me on this one! Perhaps a short snip of all this could be put to the MVP pages so others can figure out how to deal with this if they are the type to care. For future reference, the entire thread is here: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg14106.html You mention that now my folder listings and other stuff in Entourage are not anti-aliased and look horrible. Can you add some screenshots of the rest of the Entourage UI with the best message font settings? (Best seems to be ProFontLatin 9 and Sys Prefs smoothing threshold set to 9) Also, are the fonts used in the rest of the UI customizable and independent of the message font? -John -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
On 5/15/04 1:01 AM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I should also mention, I have tried going into System Pref and telling font smoothing to not be on for fonts 9 point and below, this removed the anti-aliasing, but it made the characters very chunky. Have you tried looking at your fonts in FontBook and disabling one of the many Geneva fonts you may have installed? It's possible that Office installed one. I must say, I cannot sympathize with your problems when trying to read such a tiny, ugly font... :-) I wouldn't be able to read anything at that size on screen Best, Kirk Co-author of Microsoft Office v. X Inside Out http://www.mcelhearn.com/insideout.html . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France . . -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
On 5/15/04 3:57 AM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its not that simple, I wish it were, perhaps this can illustrate the problem better: http://newgeo.com/e/ And actually, now that I compare them, why is office 2004 not only smoothing the font, but also altering its representation of what 9 point used to be? What's weird is how the spacing is different in your examples as well... You might want to try, as some suggested, to find another Geneva font with wider spacing. Kirk My latest book: How to Do Everything with Mac OS X Panther http://www.mcelhearn.com/htde.html . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France . . -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles [Summary]
I wanted to post in detail my experience and what I consider to be a acceptable solution to me in regards to anti-aliased issued with Entourage 2004. I have summarized in this link: http://newgeo.com/monaco// Thanks to everyone who helped me on this one! Perhaps a short snip of all this could be put to the MVP pages so others can figure out how to deal with this if they are the type to care. For future reference, the entire thread is here: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg14106.htm l -- - Scott HanedaTel: 415.898.2602 http://www.newgeo.com Fax: 313.557.5052 [EMAIL PROTECTED]Novato, CA U.S.A. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles [Summary]
On 5/15/04 6:42 AM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wanted to post in detail my experience and what I consider to be a acceptable solution to me in regards to anti-aliased issued with Entourage 2004. I have summarized in this link: http://newgeo.com/monaco// Thanks to everyone who helped me on this one! Perhaps a short snip of all this could be put to the MVP pages so others can figure out how to deal with this if they are the type to care. For future reference, the entire thread is here: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg14106.htm l Scott, I tried to view your page but I think that the URL above (http://newgeo.com/monaco//) is wrong or you haven't posted it yet. I am using an old imac G3 and old eyes. With the resolution set to 1024 x 768 (to get more info on the screen), I've had to set the size of my plain text display to Monaco 14. In fact, when I viewed the web page that you had set up to show the differences in the Monaco 9 display (newgeo.com/e), I had real trouble seeing those differences. What I'm saying is, not everybody will select Monaco 9, so this will not be a universal issue. Since the display differences cannot be easily changed, could I recommend Lucida Sans Typewriter as a possible replacement? It is monospaced and has the same width as Monaco, but the height is slightly less. Using a size 10 font would not be that different in size than the Monaco 9, and perhaps this would help. Please report the URL for your solution, as I'm curious about how you resolved this issue. -- Bruce B R U C E K. klutch-at-erols.com -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles [Summary]
On 5/15/04 6:42 AM, Scott Haneda wrote: I wanted to post in detail my experience and what I consider to be a acceptable solution to me in regards to anti-aliased issued with Entourage 2004. I have summarized in this link: http://newgeo.com/monaco// Where is the Profont Latin font? URL? -John -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles [Summary]
On 5/15/04 6:32 AM, Bruce Klutchko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, I tried to view your page but I think that the URL above (http://newgeo.com/monaco//) is wrong or you haven't posted it yet. Just remove the extra / at the end. -- Paul Berkowitz -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
On 5/15/04 1:03 AM, the following spewed forth from John Siracusa's keyboard: Ah, my old nemesis: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/02q3/macosx-10.2/macosx-10.2-13.html#terminal I've been using Entourage since embarrassingly early versions of Emailer [like a lot of the listers here], and I must say, I'm with Scott and John on this one. I *really* like Monaco 9, and while I haven't upgraded to '04 yet, it looks like this really is a problem. I'm glad John pointed out his articles. I *knew* someone had complained about OSX's goofy rendering of Monaco in Terminal. For me, the biggest problem is the letter spacing [not the anti-aliasing]. Most of use Monaco because it's a consistent, ubiquitous monospaced font. Whether the fault lies in WASTE, TextEdit, or ATSUI [I'm not sure how TextEdit and ATSUI relate to each other], it's really lame that 80 characters of Monaco is now going to look a lot shorter! BUT...I'll live. I'm not as grouchy about this as Scott, prolly 'cause I haven't upgraded yet. :) Anyway, I just wanted to point out some Monaco alternatives: I'm quite fond of BitStream's Vera family. It was developed and released under the GPL for use in Gnome applications, and it's monospaced sans variant is quite usable. More info, and a download link: http://www.bitstream.com/categories/products/fonts/vera/ http://www.gnome.org/fonts/ http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/ttf-bitstream-vera/1.10/ Another option is the old standby ProFont. It was originally created as a more code-friendly Monaco. There's a lot of info/background as well as download links here: http://www.tobiasjung.net/profont/ FontBook should handle both without too much fuss. -- ___ / jordan friedman /I'll tell you something; I'd date John / / --- / Rocker before I was a Yankees fan. / / [EMAIL PROTECTED] /--Matt Damon/ /_// -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles [Summary]
on 05/15/2004 06:46 AM, Paul Berkowitz at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/15/04 6:32 AM, Bruce Klutchko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, I tried to view your page but I think that the URL above (http://newgeo.com/monaco//) is wrong or you haven't posted it yet. Just remove the extra / at the end. Any idea whats going on here? There is no // in my url, why is it getting a // when clicked on, even in source mode it is correct? -- - Scott HanedaTel: 415.898.2602 http://www.newgeo.com Fax: 313.557.5052 [EMAIL PROTECTED]Novato, CA U.S.A. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
on 05/14/2004 04:01 PM, Scott Haneda at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please tell me there is some way to make this behave how it used to, I would be so happy. I am seriously about to revert to E-rage X because of it. I know so many of you will never notice this as you use HTML email, or have never used that font, myself as well as pretty much all the people I communicate with use Monaco 9, we may be a minority, I am not sure. I am pretty sure I call this a bug. Source mode of a email also has this trouble, and that certainly should not be anti-aliased at all. For those of you interested, It is possible to revert back to a older version of E-rage, I simply dragged all my new messages from the sent items and other folders to the desktop, then, launched the old version of E-rage and dropped them back in, other than them being marked as un-read, they were accepted just fine. -- - Scott HanedaTel: 415.898.2602 http://www.newgeo.com Fax: 313.557.5052 [EMAIL PROTECTED]Novato, CA U.S.A. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
Scott, it's not your vision. I have 20/20 vision and I also had to bump up the font size so I could read it. 9 point anti-aliased type is just too small to read on a 19 LCD display with a fixed resolution of 1280 x 1024. on 5/14/04 6:01 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First, the major show stopper for me. In Outlook and Entourage, all previous versions, the display font of Monaco 9 was not anti-aliased, in E-rage 2004, it now is. At 9 point, which is what I want to use, it is unreadable. Perhaps someone with better eyes would say they can more easily read it, I would say that even the crispest eyes would still have trouble. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
on 05/14/2004 04:41 PM, Mark Goodman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, it's not your vision. I have 20/20 vision and I also had to bump up the font size so I could read it. 9 point anti-aliased type is just too small to read on a 19 LCD display with a fixed resolution of 1280 x 1024. Well, good to know it is not my vision going :-) I just went and tried out a few other email apps to see how they all dealt with this behavior, the 3 others I tested were able to show my nice plain monaco 9. I am just not willing to bump it up to 10 point, since it is still tough to read and just looks blurry to me, for as much time as I spend in email, 9 point was always just right for me the way it was in the past. -- - Scott HanedaTel: 415.898.2602 http://www.newgeo.com Fax: 313.557.5052 [EMAIL PROTECTED]Novato, CA U.S.A. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
Scott Haneda wrote: on 05/14/2004 04:41 PM, Mark Goodman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, it's not your vision. I have 20/20 vision and I also had to bump up the font size so I could read it. 9 point anti-aliased type is just too small to read on a 19 LCD display with a fixed resolution of 1280 x 1024. Well, good to know it is not my vision going :-) I just went and tried out a few other email apps to see how they all dealt with this behavior, the 3 others I tested were able to show my nice plain monaco 9. I am just not willing to bump it up to 10 point, since it is still tough to read and just looks blurry to me, for as much time as I spend in email, 9 point was always just right for me the way it was in the past. As part of our switch to the ATSUI APIs, due to some limitations in ATSUI, we could not display non-anti-aliased Monaco with the correct spacing and also show anti-aliased text correctly. I tried very hard to find a way to do this, and talked to the ATSUI developers at Apple, but I couldn't come up with a solution. I don't know of any workaround. Dan -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
on 05/14/2004 05:54 PM, Dan Crevier at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott Haneda wrote: on 05/14/2004 04:41 PM, Mark Goodman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, it's not your vision. I have 20/20 vision and I also had to bump up the font size so I could read it. 9 point anti-aliased type is just too small to read on a 19 LCD display with a fixed resolution of 1280 x 1024. Well, good to know it is not my vision going :-) I just went and tried out a few other email apps to see how they all dealt with this behavior, the 3 others I tested were able to show my nice plain monaco 9. I am just not willing to bump it up to 10 point, since it is still tough to read and just looks blurry to me, for as much time as I spend in email, 9 point was always just right for me the way it was in the past. As part of our switch to the ATSUI APIs, due to some limitations in ATSUI, we could not display non-anti-aliased Monaco with the correct spacing and also show anti-aliased text correctly. I tried very hard to find a way to do this, and talked to the ATSUI developers at Apple, but I couldn't come up with a solution. I don't know of any workaround. Hmm, I have to say, this is a real bummer for me, I don't quite know what I am going to do. I wonder if I may ask you a question... I do not know the details of what ATSUI is, other than a quick google on it. I am curious how other apps are able to deal with this issue. For example, TextEdit, which has Unicode support, can do a Monaco 9 with no smoothing and it looks just like it did in E-rage X. I have to assume they use ATSUI as well? Safari's view source mode has no trouble with this also. Other apps, for which I have no idea how the ATSUI stuff works, also are able to pull this off. Just curious. Can someone offer any other font suggestions to me to test out that would perhaps allow me to get closer to my desired display, as it is now, I downgraded cause of this, I really would love to upgrade, at this point, I am kinda stuck. -- - Scott HanedaTel: 415.898.2602 http://www.newgeo.com Fax: 313.557.5052 [EMAIL PROTECTED]Novato, CA U.S.A. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
Hi Scott, Try Andale Mono but you'll have to bump it to at least 10 pt to get it to a comparable size with Monaco 9. Note: I can't try this in Entourage 2004 since I'm in Entourage 2001, but at least it's a similar font. Otherwise, do a Google search using monospace fonts macintosh for more possibilities. Good luck. Beth On 5/14/04 6:08 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone offer any other font suggestions to me to test out that would perhaps allow me to get closer to my desired display, as it is now, I downgraded cause of this, I really would love to upgrade, at this point, I am kinda stuck. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
On 5/14/04 4:01 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I should also mention, I have tried going into System Pref and telling font smoothing to not be on for fonts 9 point and below, this removed the anti-aliasing, but it made the characters very chunky. I don't understand. Do you want anti-aliasing ON or OPFF? If you want it off, turn it off for 9 pts and below. It was new in Panther to include anti-aliasing by default 6 pts and up, It used to be higher in Jaguar. -- Paul Berkowitz MVP Entourage Entourage FAQ Page: http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html AppleScripts for Entourage: http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/ PLEASE always state which version of Entourage you are using - **2004**, X or 2001. It's often impossible to answer your questions otherwise. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
On 5/14/04 4:17 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 05/14/2004 04:01 PM, Scott Haneda at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please tell me there is some way to make this behave how it used to, I would be so happy. I am seriously about to revert to E-rage X because of it. I know so many of you will never notice this as you use HTML email, or have never used that font, myself as well as pretty much all the people I communicate with use Monaco 9, we may be a minority, I am not sure. I am pretty sure I call this a bug. Source mode of a email also has this trouble, and that certainly should not be anti-aliased at all. For those of you interested, It is possible to revert back to a older version of E-rage, I simply dragged all my new messages from the sent items and other folders to the desktop, then, launched the old version of E-rage and dropped them back in, other than them being marked as un-read, they were accepted just fine. I can't imagine anyone else will want go back to X after upgrading to 2004, but yes, that's how to do it. -- Paul Berkowitz MVP Entourage Entourage FAQ Page: http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html AppleScripts for Entourage: http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/ PLEASE always state which version of Entourage you are using - **2004**, X or 2001. It's often impossible to answer your questions otherwise. -- Paul Berkowitz -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
on 05/14/2004 06:49 PM, Paul Berkowitz at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/14/04 4:01 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I should also mention, I have tried going into System Pref and telling font smoothing to not be on for fonts 9 point and below, this removed the anti-aliasing, but it made the characters very chunky. I don't understand. Do you want anti-aliasing ON or OPFF? If you want it off, turn it off for 9 pts and below. It was new in Panther to include anti-aliasing by default 6 pts and up, It used to be higher in Jaguar. Its not that simple, I wish it were, perhaps this can illustrate the problem better: http://newgeo.com/e/ And actually, now that I compare them, why is office 2004 not only smoothing the font, but also altering its representation of what 9 point used to be? -- - Scott HanedaTel: 415.898.2602 http://www.newgeo.com Fax: 313.557.5052 [EMAIL PROTECTED]Novato, CA U.S.A. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
on 05/14/2004 06:50 PM, Paul Berkowitz at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/14/04 4:17 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 05/14/2004 04:01 PM, Scott Haneda at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please tell me there is some way to make this behave how it used to, I would be so happy. I am seriously about to revert to E-rage X because of it. I know so many of you will never notice this as you use HTML email, or have never used that font, myself as well as pretty much all the people I communicate with use Monaco 9, we may be a minority, I am not sure. I am pretty sure I call this a bug. Source mode of a email also has this trouble, and that certainly should not be anti-aliased at all. For those of you interested, It is possible to revert back to a older version of E-rage, I simply dragged all my new messages from the sent items and other folders to the desktop, then, launched the old version of E-rage and dropped them back in, other than them being marked as un-read, they were accepted just fine. I can't imagine anyone else will want go back to X after upgrading to 2004, but yes, that's how to do it. I really did not want to either, I thought it would be only a temp thing and that this font display issue would be able to be worked out. Now that I have found out that this is just how it is, which is surprising to me since I don't have any other apps that have this problem, and I use Monaco 9 in all of them, I suppose I will just have to find some pretty font that is easy for me to read and work with. I have a feeling a once the bulk of people update, there will be a lot of people who really have issue with this, then again, I could be totally wrong and everyone will just start using html email and not plain text, who knows :-) -- - Scott HanedaTel: 415.898.2602 http://www.newgeo.com Fax: 313.557.5052 [EMAIL PROTECTED]Novato, CA U.S.A. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
On 5/14/04 7:04 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't imagine anyone else will want go back to X after upgrading to 2004, but yes, that's how to do it. I really did not want to either, I thought it would be only a temp thing and that this font display issue would be able to be worked out. Now that I have found out that this is just how it is, which is surprising to me since I don't have any other apps that have this problem, and I use Monaco 9 in all of them, I suppose I will just have to find some pretty font that is easy for me to read and work with. I have a feeling a once the bulk of people update, there will be a lot of people who really have issue with this, then again, I could be totally wrong and everyone will just start using html email and not plain text, who knows :-) I think that most people who are discomfited by it will be just a wee bit more adaptable than you, and will either go to 10 pts or will find a font that's close in appearance to Monaco and doesn't have the problem. Like the Andale Mono Beth suggested. I mean we're not talking about functionality here, nor anything that can't be adjusted (unless someone keeps sending you HTML messages in Monaco 9, which is not very likely). I do not think that most people will find that their liking of Monaco 9 is so absolute that a slight change in appearance to another plain text font is not outweighed by the 2000 or so other improvements in Office 2004. -- Paul Berkowitz MVP Entourage Entourage FAQ Page: http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html AppleScripts for Entourage: http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/ PLEASE always state which version of Entourage you are using - **2004**, X or 2001. It's often impossible to answer your questions otherwise. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
Scott Haneda wrote: on 05/14/2004 05:54 PM, Dan Crevier at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott Haneda wrote: on 05/14/2004 04:41 PM, Mark Goodman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, good to know it is not my vision going :-) I just went and tried out a few other email apps to see how they all dealt with this behavior, the 3 others I tested were able to show my nice plain monaco 9. I am just not willing to bump it up to 10 point, since it is still tough to read and just looks blurry to me, for as much time as I spend in email, 9 point was always just right for me the way it was in the past. As part of our switch to the ATSUI APIs, due to some limitations in ATSUI, we could not display non-anti-aliased Monaco with the correct spacing and also show anti-aliased text correctly. I tried very hard to find a way to do this, and talked to the ATSUI developers at Apple, but I couldn't come up with a solution. I don't know of any workaround. Hmm, I have to say, this is a real bummer for me, I don't quite know what I am going to do. I wonder if I may ask you a question... I do not know the details of what ATSUI is, other than a quick google on it. I am curious how other apps are able to deal with this issue. For example, TextEdit, which has Unicode support, can do a Monaco 9 with no smoothing and it looks just like it did in E-rage X. I have to assume they use ATSUI as well? Safari's view source mode has no trouble with this also. Other apps, for which I have no idea how the ATSUI stuff works, also are able to pull this off. Just curious. TextEdit uses Cocoa's text engine, which doesn't have this limitation. Entourage X used QuickDraw, which doesn't have this limitation, but does not support Unicode text. Can someone offer any other font suggestions to me to test out that would perhaps allow me to get closer to my desired display, as it is now, I downgraded cause of this, I really would love to upgrade, at this point, I am kinda stuck. Andale Mono is nice, although I use 12 point. Dan -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
on 05/14/2004 07:16 PM, Paul Berkowitz at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/14/04 7:04 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't imagine anyone else will want go back to X after upgrading to 2004, but yes, that's how to do it. I really did not want to either, I thought it would be only a temp thing and that this font display issue would be able to be worked out. Now that I have found out that this is just how it is, which is surprising to me since I don't have any other apps that have this problem, and I use Monaco 9 in all of them, I suppose I will just have to find some pretty font that is easy for me to read and work with. I have a feeling a once the bulk of people update, there will be a lot of people who really have issue with this, then again, I could be totally wrong and everyone will just start using html email and not plain text, who knows :-) I think that most people who are discomfited by it will be just a wee bit more adaptable than you, and will either go to 10 pts or will find a font that's close in appearance to Monaco and doesn't have the problem. Like the Andale Mono Beth suggested. I think I have to agree with you on this one, I know I am being a little strict about this one issue, it just happens to matter a whole lot to me. Second to Bbedit, I spend most of my time in E-rage. Its this contrast of toggling from a font view in Bbedit then back to E-rage that just announces to me that something is not how I want it :-) I will try a few other fonts and hopefully come to some semi-happy medium. However, I know there are some who will feel as strong about this as I, I even think that Dan Crevier, whom I assume is a developer feels almost similar, since he mentioned that he spend quite some time trying to resolve this as well. I am not fully convinced it can not be remedied, there are too many modern OS X apps that do not have this issue, I can not see that E-rage is the only one that has adopted ATSUI. I mean we're not talking about functionality here, nor anything that can't be adjusted (unless someone keeps sending you HTML messages in Monaco 9, which is not very likely). I do not think that most people will find that their liking of Monaco 9 is so absolute that a slight change in appearance to another plain text font is not outweighed by the 2000 or so other improvements in Office 2004. I tend to agree, for most it is has nothing to do with functionality, for me it certainly does :-) I am yet to find something in E-rage I could not work around or script around, this just happens to be one of those things with me. I am sure I will live. :-) If there are 2000 or so improvements to Office 2004, I was wondering, can someone shed some light on what is improved in E-rage specifically? I don't use the other parts of Office 2004 other than the really occasional copy and paste from Word or Excel. I am in no way trying to diminish the efforts of E-rage, I really think I must be missing some of the grander features, in my limited one day use of E-rage 2004, other than the Project Management and the addition of a new way of viewing stuff via grouping, I can not seem to find anything that screams out wow to me. I am sure I just have not had the time to locate all the little bells and whistles, perhaps you can share with me some of the new things you really like. -- - Scott HanedaTel: 415.898.2602 http://www.newgeo.com Fax: 313.557.5052 [EMAIL PROTECTED]Novato, CA U.S.A. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
Scott Haneda wrote: on 05/14/2004 07:16 PM, Paul Berkowitz at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/14/04 7:04 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't imagine anyone else will want go back to X after upgrading to 2004, but yes, that's how to do it. I really did not want to either, I thought it would be only a temp thing and that this font display issue would be able to be worked out. Now that I have found out that this is just how it is, which is surprising to me since I don't have any other apps that have this problem, and I use Monaco 9 in all of them, I suppose I will just have to find some pretty font that is easy for me to read and work with. I have a feeling a once the bulk of people update, there will be a lot of people who really have issue with this, then again, I could be totally wrong and everyone will just start using html email and not plain text, who knows :-) I think that most people who are discomfited by it will be just a wee bit more adaptable than you, and will either go to 10 pts or will find a font that's close in appearance to Monaco and doesn't have the problem. Like the Andale Mono Beth suggested. I think I have to agree with you on this one, I know I am being a little strict about this one issue, it just happens to matter a whole lot to me. Second to Bbedit, I spend most of my time in E-rage. Its this contrast of toggling from a font view in Bbedit then back to E-rage that just announces to me that something is not how I want it :-) I will try a few other fonts and hopefully come to some semi-happy medium. However, I know there are some who will feel as strong about this as I, I even think that Dan Crevier, whom I assume is a developer feels almost similar, since he mentioned that he spend quite some time trying to resolve this as well. I am not fully convinced it can not be remedied, there are too many modern OS X apps that do not have this issue, I can not see that E-rage is the only one that has adopted ATSUI. Yes, it did admittedly bother me at first, but I found a font I liked, and there were no complaints about this from others including the beta testers, so I made peace with it :-) Dan -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
On 5/14/04 9:31 PM, Scott Haneda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will try a few other fonts and hopefully come to some semi-happy medium. However, I know there are some who will feel as strong about this as I, I even think that Dan Crevier, whom I assume is a developer feels almost similar, since he mentioned that he spend quite some time trying to resolve this as well. I am not fully convinced it can not be remedied, there are too many modern OS X apps that do not have this issue, I can not see that E-rage is the only one that has adopted ATSUI. No, but almost all of the the other apps which have adopted ATSUI are Cocoa apps, and the Cocoa text engine does not have the problem, as Dan said. Entourage uses the WASTE text engine. A lot of Mac Carbon apps also use WASTE: as far as I know, none of them implements ATSUI because the standard WASTE 2 engine can't do it. Dan (who in fact contributed to earlier versions of WASTE and is credited as such in the copyright) devised a modification to WASTE, especially for Entourage 2004, that does implement ATSUI. This is the text engine that has the problem with Monaco. Some day, Entourage may change text engines (which would be a HUGE endeavour) or maybe Apple will fix whatever this problem is conflicting with ATSUI. I mean we're not talking about functionality here, nor anything that can't be adjusted (unless someone keeps sending you HTML messages in Monaco 9, which is not very likely). I do not think that most people will find that their liking of Monaco 9 is so absolute that a slight change in appearance to another plain text font is not outweighed by the 2000 or so other improvements in Office 2004. I tend to agree, for most it is has nothing to do with functionality, for me it certainly does :-) I am yet to find something in E-rage I could not work around or script around, this just happens to be one of those things with me. I am sure I will live. :-) If there are 2000 or so improvements to Office 2004, I was wondering, can someone shed some light on what is improved in E-rage specifically? I don't use the other parts of Office 2004 other than the really occasional copy and paste from Word or Excel. I am in no way trying to diminish the efforts of E-rage, I really think I must be missing some of the grander features, in my limited one day use of E-rage 2004, other than the Project Management and the addition of a new way of viewing stuff via grouping, I can not seem to find anything that screams out wow to me. I am sure I just have not had the time to locate all the little bells and whistles, perhaps you can share with me some of the new things you really like. Those who know (beta-testers and MS employees) are not yet allowed to do so, as per NDA agreements. 2004 is not yet officially released. When it is, we will be able to do so - it won't be too long now. In the meantime those of you who have already received 2004 are perfectly free to discuss it, and we're allowed to correct you in some cases... -- Paul Berkowitz MVP Entourage Entourage FAQ Page: http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html AppleScripts for Entourage: http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/ PLEASE always state which version of Entourage you are using - **2004**, X or 2001. It's often impossible to answer your questions otherwise. -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
On 5/14/04 7:01 PM, Scott Haneda wrote: First, the major show stopper for me. In Outlook and Entourage, all previous versions, the display font of Monaco 9 was not anti-aliased, in E-rage 2004, it now is. At 9 point, which is what I want to use, it is unreadable. Gah! Good thing I read this thread! On 5/14/04 8:54 PM, Dan Crevier wrote: I am just not willing to bump it up to 10 point, since it is still tough to read and just looks blurry to me, for as much time as I spend in email, 9 point was always just right for me the way it was in the past. As part of our switch to the ATSUI APIs, due to some limitations in ATSUI, we could not display non-anti-aliased Monaco with the correct spacing and also show anti-aliased text correctly. I tried very hard to find a way to do this, and talked to the ATSUI developers at Apple, but I couldn't come up with a solution. I don't know of any workaround. Ah, my old nemesis: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/02q3/macosx-10.2/macosx-10.2-13.html#terminal Also, slightly ironically related: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q4/macosx-10.1/macosx-10.1-9.html#fonts Dan: for a possible work-around for this seemingly eternal bug, look here: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/003/panther/macosx-10.3-3.html It's a hack, but if you can special-case some 1.003 font spacing when Monaco 9 is in use, it will make a lot of people happy... :) -John -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
On 5/15/04 12:57 AM, Paul Berkowitz wrote: Dan (who in fact contributed to earlier versions of WASTE and is credited as such in the copyright) devised a modification to WASTE, especially for Entourage 2004, that does implement ATSUI. This is the text engine that has the problem with Monaco. Oh, you're using WASTE? Well ATS itself has a bug that causes Monaco 9 to have messed up spacing too (see the links in my last post). -John -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
Re: What to do about this new Entourage and some of my troubles
John Siracusa wrote: On 5/14/04 7:01 PM, Scott Haneda wrote: First, the major show stopper for me. In Outlook and Entourage, all previous versions, the display font of Monaco 9 was not anti-aliased, in E-rage 2004, it now is. At 9 point, which is what I want to use, it is unreadable. Gah! Good thing I read this thread! On 5/14/04 8:54 PM, Dan Crevier wrote: I am just not willing to bump it up to 10 point, since it is still tough to read and just looks blurry to me, for as much time as I spend in email, 9 point was always just right for me the way it was in the past. As part of our switch to the ATSUI APIs, due to some limitations in ATSUI, we could not display non-anti-aliased Monaco with the correct spacing and also show anti-aliased text correctly. I tried very hard to find a way to do this, and talked to the ATSUI developers at Apple, but I couldn't come up with a solution. I don't know of any workaround. Ah, my old nemesis: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/02q3/macosx-10.2/macosx-10.2-13.html#terminal Also, slightly ironically related: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q4/macosx-10.1/macosx-10.1-9.html#fonts Dan: for a possible work-around for this seemingly eternal bug, look here: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/003/panther/macosx-10.3-3.html It's a hack, but if you can special-case some 1.003 font spacing when Monaco 9 is in use, it will make a lot of people happy... :) I hesitate to go into the details because it's been over a year since I worked on this and I don't remember them all... But, the basic problem is that anti-aliased text only looks good with the kATSLineUseDeviceMetrics flag turned on, and non-anti-aliased text only looks good with the flag turned off. The problem is that you can only turn this flag on for an entire layout at time. You can't turn it on for runs of Monaco 9 within a larger layout of text. You might be thinking that we could just turn this on for plain text messages, but it's not quite that simple. There are lots of time plain text gets mixed with proportional text, and it would be really inconsistent if it sometimes looked good and sometimes didn't. Dan -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.letterrip.com/ old-archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/entourage-talk%40lists.boingo.com/
