Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Color me pickled, it looks like they decided to make a Linux client after all. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
WAT - ScarT On 24 April 2010 17:10, Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com wrote: Color me pickled, it looks like they decided to make a Linux client after all. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
If your news source is Phoronix, better ignore that tabloid-like webpage. 2010/4/24 Tobias Kammersgaard tobias.kammersga...@gmail.com WAT - ScarT On 24 April 2010 17:10, Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com wrote: Color me pickled, it looks like they decided to make a Linux client after all. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
From what I heard at http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=steam_linux_scriptnum=1, they have found a bash script in the mac beta that adds future support for Linux. And they have also released .so files for Linux in Left 4 Dead once, and so on. There is some evidence but nothing I would consider valid proof of a Linux client coming in the near future. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Also this, apparently: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/butl8/steam_for_linux_testapp_thingy/ On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen hlcod...@maxsi.dk wrote: From what I heard at http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=steam_linux_scriptnum=1 , they have found a bash script in the mac beta that adds future support for Linux. And they have also released .so files for Linux in Left 4 Dead once, and so on. There is some evidence but nothing I would consider valid proof of a Linux client coming in the near future. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
1nsane wrote: Also this, apparently: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/butl8/steam_for_linux_testapp_thingy/ Indeed, from the looks of http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/steam_client_linux it has a version number which currently is version 1272069501 Which if you interpret it as a timestamp you get the date Sat, 24 Apr 2010 00:38:21 GMT, which strongly suggests that Valve is doing nightly builds of their Linux port. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
This is the first hard evidence I've seen. Everything else so far (including the L4D Linux binaries) has been either definitely or potentially related to the dedicated server, but I don't see why you'd needt the graphics, friends or skins folders for that. On 24/04/2010 5:05, 1nsane wrote: Also this, apparently: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/butl8/steam_for_linux_testapp_thingy/ On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen hlcod...@maxsi.dk wrote: From what I heard at http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=steam_linux_scriptnum=1 , they have found a bash script in the mac beta that adds future support for Linux. And they have also released .so files for Linux in Left 4 Dead once, and so on. There is some evidence but nothing I would consider valid proof of a Linux client coming in the near future. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Awesome, thanks for posting. Evil valve for not telling. On 24 April 2010 17:52, Tom Edwards t_edwa...@btinternet.com wrote: This is the first hard evidence I've seen. Everything else so far (including the L4D Linux binaries) has been either definitely or potentially related to the dedicated server, but I don't see why you'd needt the graphics, friends or skins folders for that. On 24/04/2010 5:05, 1nsane wrote: Also this, apparently: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/butl8/steam_for_linux_testapp_thingy/ On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen hlcod...@maxsi.dk wrote: From what I heard at http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=steam_linux_scriptnum=1 , they have found a bash script in the mac beta that adds future support for Linux. And they have also released .so files for Linux in Left 4 Dead once, and so on. There is some evidence but nothing I would consider valid proof of a Linux client coming in the near future. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
The steam_client_linux is now officially 404. :( Thanks, - Saul. On 24 April 2010 19:43, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.comwrote: Awesome, thanks for posting. Evil valve for not telling. On 24 April 2010 17:52, Tom Edwards t_edwa...@btinternet.com wrote: This is the first hard evidence I've seen. Everything else so far (including the L4D Linux binaries) has been either definitely or potentially related to the dedicated server, but I don't see why you'd needt the graphics, friends or skins folders for that. On 24/04/2010 5:05, 1nsane wrote: Also this, apparently: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/butl8/steam_for_linux_testapp_thingy/ On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen hlcod...@maxsi.dk wrote: From what I heard at http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=steam_linux_scriptnum=1 , they have found a bash script in the mac beta that adds future support for Linux. And they have also released .so files for Linux in Left 4 Dead once, and so on. There is some evidence but nothing I would consider valid proof of a Linux client coming in the near future. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Yeah, it 404'd before I grabbed a copy. Somewhere there is a Valve employee laughing at us. On 24 April 2010 19:57, Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: The steam_client_linux is now officially 404. :( Thanks, - Saul. On 24 April 2010 19:43, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.comwrote: Awesome, thanks for posting. Evil valve for not telling. On 24 April 2010 17:52, Tom Edwards t_edwa...@btinternet.com wrote: This is the first hard evidence I've seen. Everything else so far (including the L4D Linux binaries) has been either definitely or potentially related to the dedicated server, but I don't see why you'd needt the graphics, friends or skins folders for that. On 24/04/2010 5:05, 1nsane wrote: Also this, apparently: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/butl8/steam_for_linux_testapp_thingy/ On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen hlcod...@maxsi.dk wrote: From what I heard at http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=steam_linux_scriptnum=1 , they have found a bash script in the mac beta that adds future support for Linux. And they have also released .so files for Linux in Left 4 Dead once, and so on. There is some evidence but nothing I would consider valid proof of a Linux client coming in the near future. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Though it is noted that some if not all of the files are still there, it could be down for massive changes or something On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Yeah, it 404'd before I grabbed a copy. Somewhere there is a Valve employee laughing at us. On 24 April 2010 19:57, Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: The steam_client_linux is now officially 404. :( Thanks, - Saul. On 24 April 2010 19:43, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Awesome, thanks for posting. Evil valve for not telling. On 24 April 2010 17:52, Tom Edwards t_edwa...@btinternet.com wrote: This is the first hard evidence I've seen. Everything else so far (including the L4D Linux binaries) has been either definitely or potentially related to the dedicated server, but I don't see why you'd needt the graphics, friends or skins folders for that. On 24/04/2010 5:05, 1nsane wrote: Also this, apparently: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/butl8/steam_for_linux_testapp_thingy/ On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen hlcod...@maxsi.dk wrote: From what I heard at http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=steam_linux_scriptnum=1 , they have found a bash script in the mac beta that adds future support for Linux. And they have also released .so files for Linux in Left 4 Dead once, and so on. There is some evidence but nothing I would consider valid proof of a Linux client coming in the near future. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
No I saw it on N4G which linked here: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/steam-linux-mac-os-x-half-life-team-fortress,10247.html Back in March I suggested that a Linux port was unlikely and I think that's still the case, especially given that Valve didn't announce one when they announced the Mac port. The fact remains that there's no strong gaming contingent on Linux. However I suppose it seems that Valve is at least testing the waters. Cat's out of the bag now, but perhaps they figured that if the Linux port didn't work out they could always scrap it and not tell anybody that they were working on it. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
There was this mission underground, so they sent some explorers down! I mean... Yea, steam is pretty cool. Consoles in general are far worse, ultimate DRM right there. On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com wrote: No I saw it on N4G which linked here: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/steam-linux-mac-os-x-half-life-team-fortress,10247.html Back in March I suggested that a Linux port was unlikely and I think that's still the case, especially given that Valve didn't announce one when they announced the Mac port. The fact remains that there's no strong gaming contingent on Linux. However I suppose it seems that Valve is at least testing the waters. Cat's out of the bag now, but perhaps they figured that if the Linux port didn't work out they could always scrap it and not tell anybody that they were working on it. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Nick wrote: Steam is for gamers. Gamers know about it. Most gamers like it, or at least consider it the least evil DRM available. What could work, then, is selling game-related media. ??? Offline mode is a frozen bird poop in july joke. Steam only works on windows. Do you really expect anyone to buy anything but cheap and popular games? You must either be joking or out of your mind for you to think anyone with half a brain would buy movies from steam. Nothing on steam is yours, your games are just a small bit on valve servers. If valve servers go offline or someone steals your account you have nothing. You cannot even sell your account or unlink purchased games. Digital restrictions management is all about big corporations restricting your rights to do what you paid for. I wish some of you noobcakes would look around once in a while .. So, wake up, noobcaks. Wake up and smell the ashes. STEAM IS A RIPOFF THAT BARELY WORKS. While I'm not as staunch as Nick... there does seem to be a lot of fan boys regarding Steam's delivery service. I've never really cared for Steam as a system, too heavy, too unstable, too many security vulnerabilities. But from a business stand point the logistics of doing pure digital delivery over hardcopy is pretty hard to beat. It is the way software will be sold, so VALVe did a good job taking that bet and getting in early. The Mac market won't be so forgiving of buggy software. On Windows you're just used to stuff not working quite right. So perhaps we will see a more stable platform out of this transition. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Changing the rendering engine is one thing. Rewriting the entire code base to work on 7 cores is quite another. On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 01:07, Allan Button abut...@netaccess.ca wrote: Maybe the Mac is a good test platform for OpenGL, then they are going to springboard off this, and jump into PS3 development. Also, I'd buy a dozen copies of TF2 for the iPhone, so I could play with the people I work with. ;) Allan -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Jansen Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:42 PM To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac Two things: First, I completely agree with Adam's analysis. From what I see, Valve makes most of it's money from Steam, not games. I wouldn't be surprised if some of their games actually failed to make a profit, given how long their dev times are. Further, the Mac has nothing to compete with Steam, while the PC has several dozen competitors. What I'm hoping is that this Mac port signals a Linux port as well. The systems are sufficiently similar that it wouldn't be difficult, and Linux has absolutely no competition. Even Mac!Steam has to deal with retail. Second, I don't think moving into general movie sales would work for Valve. They don't really have first-hand experience making and selling movies, so they won't be able to be as developer- (or the film equivalent) and consumer-friendly as they are with games. Besides the fact that they would be up against some fierce competition, and don't have nearly the brand recognition many of the movie-digital-distribution players have. Steam is for gamers. Gamers know about it. Most gamers like it, or at least consider it the least evil DRM available. What could work, then, is selling game-related media. Put the Source modding tutorial DVDs on. Put game soundtracks on. Heck, I'd buy Advent Children if it was on Steam. Of course, watch all my predictions turn out wrong. I'm guessing a Team Fortress feature film, and a port of Steam to the iPhone, just to make my predictions look stupid. Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:36:33 -0600 From: Nathan Voge hl2fr...@msn.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac To: hlcoders hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: col116-w380923eee8badc081a07588...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Don't forget that Steam not only works for digital distribution of games. Sure that is mostly what they have now, but I'm guessing that somewhere at Valve they are thinking about digital distribution of other things. Movies (There was/is that one Zombie Movie. BTW the site www.2chums.com is now for sale), songs, professional software... Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:51:58 + From: harry101jeff...@googlemail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It also re-asserts Steams position as the best digital distribution system available. Stopping other new platforms such as impulse that support mac from taking control is a wise move. On 11 March 2010 19:08, Kerry Dorsey kdor...@dorseyinc.com wrote: Adam, you're absolutely right...as I see it. This is much less about platform game support than it is about platform distribution support. But the latter is useless without the former. You accurately described the Mac dev food-chain so I won't be redundant, but the other key aspect of current ports to the Mac involves the code itself...native versus virtualization. The latest Sims 3 port for Mac is emulated. It's PC code thrown on top of a resource hungry virt environment (that's an over simplification, so don't get too upset) that runs horribly on all but the latest and strongest machines. So while some see support for the Mac means that it will run on all Macs, that ain't so. In fact, I'm venturing a guess that EA's support costs for the average Mac release is INSANE, all because of performance issues. If said code were native, most of the problems probably wouldn't exist. So I see Valve's decision to port, natively, their OB engine product to the Mac to be an effort to a.) throw more sand in Activision's distribution eyes, (go Steam!!) , develop a previously untapped market segment (Mac), and head off support nightmares with a little preventative research and development. It shows how Valve's business model and management have matured in a very short time. Good job! -Kerry On 3/11/10 10:43 AM, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02: I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Valve only ported the games because they had to. The real motive here is Steam. Selling Mac software is very different to selling PC software. For PC games, it makes
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Agreed. Also, while the PS3 does support OpenGL via a wrapper, it's not the native library. The PS3 uses a hybrid system based on OpenGL ES and Cg. On 15 March 2010 07:26, Zach Kanzler they4k...@gmail.com wrote: Changing the rendering engine is one thing. Rewriting the entire code base to work on 7 cores is quite another. On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 01:07, Allan Button abut...@netaccess.ca wrote: Maybe the Mac is a good test platform for OpenGL, then they are going to springboard off this, and jump into PS3 development. Also, I'd buy a dozen copies of TF2 for the iPhone, so I could play with the people I work with. ;) Allan -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Jansen Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:42 PM To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac Two things: First, I completely agree with Adam's analysis. From what I see, Valve makes most of it's money from Steam, not games. I wouldn't be surprised if some of their games actually failed to make a profit, given how long their dev times are. Further, the Mac has nothing to compete with Steam, while the PC has several dozen competitors. What I'm hoping is that this Mac port signals a Linux port as well. The systems are sufficiently similar that it wouldn't be difficult, and Linux has absolutely no competition. Even Mac!Steam has to deal with retail. Second, I don't think moving into general movie sales would work for Valve. They don't really have first-hand experience making and selling movies, so they won't be able to be as developer- (or the film equivalent) and consumer-friendly as they are with games. Besides the fact that they would be up against some fierce competition, and don't have nearly the brand recognition many of the movie-digital-distribution players have. Steam is for gamers. Gamers know about it. Most gamers like it, or at least consider it the least evil DRM available. What could work, then, is selling game-related media. Put the Source modding tutorial DVDs on. Put game soundtracks on. Heck, I'd buy Advent Children if it was on Steam. Of course, watch all my predictions turn out wrong. I'm guessing a Team Fortress feature film, and a port of Steam to the iPhone, just to make my predictions look stupid. Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:36:33 -0600 From: Nathan Voge hl2fr...@msn.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac To: hlcoders hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: col116-w380923eee8badc081a07588...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Don't forget that Steam not only works for digital distribution of games. Sure that is mostly what they have now, but I'm guessing that somewhere at Valve they are thinking about digital distribution of other things. Movies (There was/is that one Zombie Movie. BTW the site www.2chums.com is now for sale), songs, professional software... Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:51:58 + From: harry101jeff...@googlemail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It also re-asserts Steams position as the best digital distribution system available. Stopping other new platforms such as impulse that support mac from taking control is a wise move. On 11 March 2010 19:08, Kerry Dorsey kdor...@dorseyinc.com wrote: Adam, you're absolutely right...as I see it. This is much less about platform game support than it is about platform distribution support. But the latter is useless without the former. You accurately described the Mac dev food-chain so I won't be redundant, but the other key aspect of current ports to the Mac involves the code itself...native versus virtualization. The latest Sims 3 port for Mac is emulated. It's PC code thrown on top of a resource hungry virt environment (that's an over simplification, so don't get too upset) that runs horribly on all but the latest and strongest machines. So while some see support for the Mac means that it will run on all Macs, that ain't so. In fact, I'm venturing a guess that EA's support costs for the average Mac release is INSANE, all because of performance issues. If said code were native, most of the problems probably wouldn't exist. So I see Valve's decision to port, natively, their OB engine product to the Mac to be an effort to a.) throw more sand in Activision's distribution eyes, (go Steam!!) , develop a previously untapped market segment (Mac), and head off support nightmares with a little preventative research and development. It shows how Valve's business model and management have matured in a very short time. Good job! -Kerry On 3/11/10 10:43 AM, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02: I think a lot
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
And PS3 game devs I use bare driver and not OpenGL from what I've heard. Porting to PS3 is totally different thing than porting to Mac. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
It doesn't help that Sony is run by a megalomaniac who insists on giving the PS3 8 cores even though the designers believed having only 6 would be more practical/efficient. To get something done right it generally needs to be collaborative. Take open source software and Valve as examples. Anyways, I'm sure there are some real PS3 developers reading this mailing list now that valve have stolen some PS3 devs from Naughty Dog. On 15 March 2010 14:07, Marek Sieradzki marek.sierad...@gmail.com wrote: And PS3 game devs I use bare driver and not OpenGL from what I've heard. Porting to PS3 is totally different thing than porting to Mac. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Oh dear. How many people read that article? Elan Ruskin and Alex Vlachos have been at Valve since 2006. That writer doesn't have a clue On 15 Mar 2010, at 18:25, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: It doesn't help that Sony is run by a megalomaniac who insists on giving the PS3 8 cores even though the designers believed having only 6 would be more practical/efficient. To get something done right it generally needs to be collaborative. Take open source software and Valve as examples. Anyways, I'm sure there are some real PS3 developers reading this mailing list now that valve have stolen some PS3 devs from Naughty Dog. On 15 March 2010 14:07, Marek Sieradzki marek.sierad...@gmail.com wrote: And PS3 game devs I use bare driver and not OpenGL from what I've heard. Porting to PS3 is totally different thing than porting to Mac. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
I need to read google news less. _ On 15 March 2010 19:20, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: Oh dear. How many people read that article? Elan Ruskin and Alex Vlachos have been at Valve since 2006. That writer doesn't have a clue On 15 Mar 2010, at 18:25, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: It doesn't help that Sony is run by a megalomaniac who insists on giving the PS3 8 cores even though the designers believed having only 6 would be more practical/efficient. To get something done right it generally needs to be collaborative. Take open source software and Valve as examples. Anyways, I'm sure there are some real PS3 developers reading this mailing list now that valve have stolen some PS3 devs from Naughty Dog. On 15 March 2010 14:07, Marek Sieradzki marek.sierad...@gmail.com wrote: And PS3 game devs I use bare driver and not OpenGL from what I've heard. Porting to PS3 is totally different thing than porting to Mac. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
One time google brought up a old news article about some Airline declaring bankruptcy from like 2000. In 2008 or 2009. The stock went weee-splat (-95%), and then immediately recovered. Some good deals there yar. - voogru. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:22 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac I need to read google news less. _ On 15 March 2010 19:20, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: Oh dear. How many people read that article? Elan Ruskin and Alex Vlachos have been at Valve since 2006. That writer doesn't have a clue On 15 Mar 2010, at 18:25, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: It doesn't help that Sony is run by a megalomaniac who insists on giving the PS3 8 cores even though the designers believed having only 6 would be more practical/efficient. To get something done right it generally needs to be collaborative. Take open source software and Valve as examples. Anyways, I'm sure there are some real PS3 developers reading this mailing list now that valve have stolen some PS3 devs from Naughty Dog. On 15 March 2010 14:07, Marek Sieradzki marek.sierad...@gmail.com wrote: And PS3 game devs I use bare driver and not OpenGL from what I've heard. Porting to PS3 is totally different thing than porting to Mac. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Steam is for gamers. Gamers know about it. Most gamers like it, or at least consider it the least evil DRM available. What could work, then, is selling game-related media. ??? Offline mode is a frozen bird poop in july joke. Steam only works on windows. Do you really expect anyone to buy anything but cheap and popular games? You must either be joking or out of your mind for you to think anyone with half a brain would buy movies from steam. Nothing on steam is yours, your games are just a small bit on valve servers. If valve servers go offline or someone steals your account you have nothing. You cannot even sell your account or unlink purchased games. Digital restrictions management is all about big corporations restricting your rights to do what you paid for. I wish some of you noobcakes would look around once in a while .. So, wake up, noobcaks. Wake up and smell the ashes. STEAM IS A RIPOFF THAT BARELY WORKS. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Says the guy on their Coder's mailing list... Who's probably got a significant investment... Probably doesn't know much about account security. I can make it work perfectly if you give me your credit card details, pin number, steam account/password, email password, etc. Trust me, look! I have pen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o8XMlL8rqY On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Nick xnicho...@gmail.com wrote: Steam is for gamers. Gamers know about it. Most gamers like it, or at least consider it the least evil DRM available. What could work, then, is selling game-related media. ??? Offline mode is a frozen bird poop in july joke. Steam only works on windows. Do you really expect anyone to buy anything but cheap and popular games? You must either be joking or out of your mind for you to think anyone with half a brain would buy movies from steam. Nothing on steam is yours, your games are just a small bit on valve servers. If valve servers go offline or someone steals your account you have nothing. You cannot even sell your account or unlink purchased games. Digital restrictions management is all about big corporations restricting your rights to do what you paid for. I wish some of you noobcakes would look around once in a while .. So, wake up, noobcaks. Wake up and smell the ashes. STEAM IS A RIPOFF THAT BARELY WORKS. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Don't forget that Steam not only works for digital distribution of games. Sure that is mostly what they have now, but I'm guessing that somewhere at Valve they are thinking about digital distribution of other things. Movies (There was/is that one Zombie Movie. BTW the site www.2chums.com is now for sale), songs, professional software... Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:51:58 + From: harry101jeff...@googlemail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It also re-asserts Steams position as the best digital distribution system available. Stopping other new platforms such as impulse that support mac from taking control is a wise move. On 11 March 2010 19:08, Kerry Dorsey kdor...@dorseyinc.com wrote: Adam, you're absolutely right...as I see it. This is much less about platform game support than it is about platform distribution support. But the latter is useless without the former. You accurately described the Mac dev food-chain so I won't be redundant, but the other key aspect of current ports to the Mac involves the code itself...native versus virtualization. The latest Sims 3 port for Mac is emulated. It's PC code thrown on top of a resource hungry virt environment (that's an over simplification, so don't get too upset) that runs horribly on all but the latest and strongest machines. So while some see support for the Mac means that it will run on all Macs, that ain't so. In fact, I'm venturing a guess that EA's support costs for the average Mac release is INSANE, all because of performance issues. If said code were native, most of the problems probably wouldn't exist. So I see Valve's decision to port, natively, their OB engine product to the Mac to be an effort to a.) throw more sand in Activision's distribution eyes, (go Steam!!) , develop a previously untapped market segment (Mac), and head off support nightmares with a little preventative research and development. It shows how Valve's business model and management have matured in a very short time. Good job! -Kerry On 3/11/10 10:43 AM, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02: I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Valve only ported the games because they had to. The real motive here is Steam. Selling Mac software is very different to selling PC software. For PC games, it makes perfect sense to put a boxed copy on a shelf where people can go to a shop and buy it. For the Mac, however, their users are much more spread out, and therefore putting a boxed copy on a shelf isn't such a good idea. Most Mac software houses realised this a long time ago and sell their software via digital distribution instead. Most don't even make boxed copies. Mac games however have never quite got there and still sell mainly boxed copies. The current state of Mac ports of games (with a few exceptions) is that a developer will develop a game for Windows, release it, and then pass their code to a third-party developer (Aspyr is an example), who will then port the game to OS X and sell it. The problem here is that it can take a team such as the one at Aspyr a year to port a game to OS X, by which time the game's hype is almost non-existant, and because the porter, the original developer, and the publisher all need to make a profit, the game is sold at full-price, while the prices of the other platforms is significantly reduced, making the OS X port very unattractive. While it make take a third-party porting company a year to port the game to another platform, the original developer could port the game much faster and for a much lower cost, especially if the Mac is a release platform. Problem is, they don't bother because they don't want to have to deal with trying desperately to distribute it digitally themselves. Valve have spotted an opportunity here. What they're doing is they're bringing a digital distribution platform that is mature and one that many developers already have experience using to the Mac. By doing this, they will (hopefully) entice many other developers to move their games to the Mac themselves because a distribution method that still gives them a higher-than-normal (compared to boxed copies) profit margin is available. So, why have Valve moved their games to OS X and not just Steam? Well, there's a number of reasons 1) They need something to launch Steam on the Mac with!! 2) If they didn't, other developers would have no reason to have any confidence in Steam for Mac. 3) Valve now have some valuable knowledge and experience in porting to OS X that they can use to help other developers in porting their games to OS X. This is useful because while Valve are giving away techniques that they've spent considerable money trying to develop, more Mac games on Steam = more profit! So
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Two things: First, I completely agree with Adam's analysis. From what I see, Valve makes most of it's money from Steam, not games. I wouldn't be surprised if some of their games actually failed to make a profit, given how long their dev times are. Further, the Mac has nothing to compete with Steam, while the PC has several dozen competitors. What I'm hoping is that this Mac port signals a Linux port as well. The systems are sufficiently similar that it wouldn't be difficult, and Linux has absolutely no competition. Even Mac!Steam has to deal with retail. Second, I don't think moving into general movie sales would work for Valve. They don't really have first-hand experience making and selling movies, so they won't be able to be as developer- (or the film equivalent) and consumer-friendly as they are with games. Besides the fact that they would be up against some fierce competition, and don't have nearly the brand recognition many of the movie-digital-distribution players have. Steam is for gamers. Gamers know about it. Most gamers like it, or at least consider it the least evil DRM available. What could work, then, is selling game-related media. Put the Source modding tutorial DVDs on. Put game soundtracks on. Heck, I'd buy Advent Children if it was on Steam. Of course, watch all my predictions turn out wrong. I'm guessing a Team Fortress feature film, and a port of Steam to the iPhone, just to make my predictions look stupid. Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:36:33 -0600 From: Nathan Voge hl2fr...@msn.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac To: hlcoders hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: col116-w380923eee8badc081a07588...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Don't forget that Steam not only works for digital distribution of games. Sure that is mostly what they have now, but I'm guessing that somewhere at Valve they are thinking about digital distribution of other things. Movies (There was/is that one Zombie Movie. BTW the site www.2chums.com is now for sale), songs, professional software... Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:51:58 + From: harry101jeff...@googlemail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It also re-asserts Steams position as the best digital distribution system available. Stopping other new platforms such as impulse that support mac from taking control is a wise move. On 11 March 2010 19:08, Kerry Dorsey kdor...@dorseyinc.com wrote: Adam, you're absolutely right...as I see it. This is much less about platform game support than it is about platform distribution support. But the latter is useless without the former. You accurately described the Mac dev food-chain so I won't be redundant, but the other key aspect of current ports to the Mac involves the code itself...native versus virtualization. The latest Sims 3 port for Mac is emulated. It's PC code thrown on top of a resource hungry virt environment (that's an over simplification, so don't get too upset) that runs horribly on all but the latest and strongest machines. So while some see support for the Mac means that it will run on all Macs, that ain't so. In fact, I'm venturing a guess that EA's support costs for the average Mac release is INSANE, all because of performance issues. If said code were native, most of the problems probably wouldn't exist. So I see Valve's decision to port, natively, their OB engine product to the Mac to be an effort to a.) throw more sand in Activision's distribution eyes, (go Steam!!) , develop a previously untapped market segment (Mac), and head off support nightmares with a little preventative research and development. It shows how Valve's business model and management have matured in a very short time. Good job! -Kerry On 3/11/10 10:43 AM, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02: I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Valve only ported the games because they had to. The real motive here is Steam. Selling Mac software is very different to selling PC software. For PC games, it makes perfect sense to put a boxed copy on a shelf where people can go to a shop and buy it. For the Mac, however, their users are much more spread out, and therefore putting a boxed copy on a shelf isn't such a good idea. Most Mac software houses realised this a long time ago and sell their software via digital distribution instead. Most don't even make boxed copies. Mac games however have never quite got there and still sell mainly boxed copies. The current state of Mac ports of games (with a few exceptions) is that a developer will develop a game for Windows, release it, and then pass their code to a third-party developer (Aspyr is an example), who will then port the game to OS X and sell
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Maybe the Mac is a good test platform for OpenGL, then they are going to springboard off this, and jump into PS3 development. Also, I'd buy a dozen copies of TF2 for the iPhone, so I could play with the people I work with. ;) Allan -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Jansen Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:42 PM To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac Two things: First, I completely agree with Adam's analysis. From what I see, Valve makes most of it's money from Steam, not games. I wouldn't be surprised if some of their games actually failed to make a profit, given how long their dev times are. Further, the Mac has nothing to compete with Steam, while the PC has several dozen competitors. What I'm hoping is that this Mac port signals a Linux port as well. The systems are sufficiently similar that it wouldn't be difficult, and Linux has absolutely no competition. Even Mac!Steam has to deal with retail. Second, I don't think moving into general movie sales would work for Valve. They don't really have first-hand experience making and selling movies, so they won't be able to be as developer- (or the film equivalent) and consumer-friendly as they are with games. Besides the fact that they would be up against some fierce competition, and don't have nearly the brand recognition many of the movie-digital-distribution players have. Steam is for gamers. Gamers know about it. Most gamers like it, or at least consider it the least evil DRM available. What could work, then, is selling game-related media. Put the Source modding tutorial DVDs on. Put game soundtracks on. Heck, I'd buy Advent Children if it was on Steam. Of course, watch all my predictions turn out wrong. I'm guessing a Team Fortress feature film, and a port of Steam to the iPhone, just to make my predictions look stupid. Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:36:33 -0600 From: Nathan Voge hl2fr...@msn.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac To: hlcoders hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: col116-w380923eee8badc081a07588...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Don't forget that Steam not only works for digital distribution of games. Sure that is mostly what they have now, but I'm guessing that somewhere at Valve they are thinking about digital distribution of other things. Movies (There was/is that one Zombie Movie. BTW the site www.2chums.com is now for sale), songs, professional software... Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:51:58 + From: harry101jeff...@googlemail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It also re-asserts Steams position as the best digital distribution system available. Stopping other new platforms such as impulse that support mac from taking control is a wise move. On 11 March 2010 19:08, Kerry Dorsey kdor...@dorseyinc.com wrote: Adam, you're absolutely right...as I see it. This is much less about platform game support than it is about platform distribution support. But the latter is useless without the former. You accurately described the Mac dev food-chain so I won't be redundant, but the other key aspect of current ports to the Mac involves the code itself...native versus virtualization. The latest Sims 3 port for Mac is emulated. It's PC code thrown on top of a resource hungry virt environment (that's an over simplification, so don't get too upset) that runs horribly on all but the latest and strongest machines. So while some see support for the Mac means that it will run on all Macs, that ain't so. In fact, I'm venturing a guess that EA's support costs for the average Mac release is INSANE, all because of performance issues. If said code were native, most of the problems probably wouldn't exist. So I see Valve's decision to port, natively, their OB engine product to the Mac to be an effort to a.) throw more sand in Activision's distribution eyes, (go Steam!!) , develop a previously untapped market segment (Mac), and head off support nightmares with a little preventative research and development. It shows how Valve's business model and management have matured in a very short time. Good job! -Kerry On 3/11/10 10:43 AM, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02: I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Valve only ported the games because they had to. The real motive here is Steam. Selling Mac software is very different to selling PC software. For PC games, it makes perfect sense to put a boxed copy on a shelf where people can go to a shop and buy it. For the Mac, however, their users are much more spread out, and therefore putting
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
I'm not so sure that a Mac port makes sense financially. According to NPD (October 2009)... http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_091005.html 12% of U.S. households owning a computer, own an Apple computer. Lets assume all of those are Macs with OSX and not Apple IIs. :) Of those Apple users, 85% *also* own a Windows PC. This means that many of those Mac customers who wanted to buy Portal or Half-Life2 or Left 4 Dead probably already own it, which means that you aren't going to have much of an increase in sales by supporting OSX. Any customers that bought it on PC who instead buy it on OSX just reduce the total sales numbers for the PC (because they are buying it for a different platform now). I really like the Mac and OSX. I've done some iPhone development on the Mac... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4HZT-gKDVU ...so I'm not an Apple hater or Mac hater. I think OSX is really neat. It is *very* user friendly and has a lot of really nice features (which Windows Vista and Windows 7 clearly borrowed from), but I just don't see supporting OSX as making much sense financially. Here's the way I think things went down... About 6 or 8 months ago, Gabe was looking to buy a new computer. Gabe is a Microsoft guy from *way* back, and had never really messed around much with Macs, but this time he decided to get a Mac running Snow Leopard. After a few minutes of playing around with it, Gabe goes running down the hall to grab people and tell them how AWESOME the Mac was!!! Gabe said OMG! We HAVE to port our games to this platform!!1!11!. Some people replied and said But Gabe, we're not going to be able to make any money selling games on Macs and it's going to cost us money to port our engine and all of our old games to OSX. Gabe said I don't care. We make enough money from Left 4 Dead, Counter-Strike and revenue from all the Steam sales to cover it. I want to see some of our games running on a Mac within a year. So a small team was formed to look into what it would take to port all of the engine DirectX and shader stuff to OpenGL and get the engine game code ported to OSX. Gabe decided they should pick something smaller that would appear more to Think Different type people and everyone agreed that Portal was the one game that would most appeal to Mac-types. As I said above, I like OSX, but Valve's decision to support Macs still has me scratching my head. Maybe Valve is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, or maybe Valve sees it as more of a public relations benefit. It still doesn't seem like a money making venture to me. Maybe it will encourage other engine and game developers (I'm looking at you Epic) to support OSX, but I doubt it. On 3/10/2010 4:49 PM, Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen wrote: Well, Mac support makes a lot of sense really. According to wikipedia Windows covers 88% of all desktop computers, and Mac OS X 6%. GNU/Linux only is only 1%. If you look at this pie chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Operating_system_usage_share.svg you can clearly see that if Valve supports Windows and Mac, they support almost every desktop computer able to run their games. I am really glad Valve are expanding the market for digital distribution to other platforms as well - personally I see Steam-like systems as the future of gaming. So whether how much I would like a linux port, I can perfectly see why they should focus on a Mac OS X port first. As for the whole no gaming on GNU/Linux thingey - the main reason developers don't make games for the platform is because gamers don't use it, and the main reason gamers doesn't use the platform is because the huge games don't get ports for the platform. If Valve shipped their Source games for GNU/Linux-based operating systems I am sure it would cause more gamers to use the platform, including myself. Again, I am really glad Valve is doing a Mac OS X port of Steam and Source and I appreiciate their efforts put into this. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Jeffrey botman Broome wrote: I'm not so sure that a Mac port makes sense financially. According to NPD (October 2009)... The indie game Overgrowth (sequel to Lugaru) supports Windows, Mac, and Linux. While most of thier points to do so don't apply to a large game studio like Valve, some do, and I am fairly sure Valve has a few reasons of their own. I highly suggest indie programmers read this: http://blog.wolfire.com/2008/12/why-you-should-support-mac-os-x-and-linux/ Plus, a proper port is a one-time-task, and then if you design all new features with cross-platformness in mind, your games would be a cross platform for a long time. Of course, crossplatformness is expensive, but lets be honest, Valve couldn't be richer and they are known for their very very successful high-risk projects. I think Valve wants Steam to be the platform for game distribution in the future, so they have to go crossplatform to make sure this happens. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Jeffrey, I think what Valve is hoping to do is grow the Mac market with Steam and at the same time take control as the dominant force in that market. While there are a lot of households that have Macs and PC's, I think the data may be betraying you. How many of those dual-computer households are ones in which the family has a PC but the kid has a Mac of his own? Why else would a family have two computers? There are plenty of Mac people who dual boot to Windows in order to play video games (like, every college student I know,) and I think that if Valve plays their cards right, they could actually help grow the Mac market, as lack of games is the Mac's single biggest drawback, in my opinion. (Hell I might own a Mac if it weren't for lack of games.) Games are going to come to Macs eventually and Valve is trying to control the market when that happens. It has a good chance of working. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
My $0.02: I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Valve only ported the games because they had to. The real motive here is Steam. Selling Mac software is very different to selling PC software. For PC games, it makes perfect sense to put a boxed copy on a shelf where people can go to a shop and buy it. For the Mac, however, their users are much more spread out, and therefore putting a boxed copy on a shelf isn't such a good idea. Most Mac software houses realised this a long time ago and sell their software via digital distribution instead. Most don't even make boxed copies. Mac games however have never quite got there and still sell mainly boxed copies. The current state of Mac ports of games (with a few exceptions) is that a developer will develop a game for Windows, release it, and then pass their code to a third-party developer (Aspyr is an example), who will then port the game to OS X and sell it. The problem here is that it can take a team such as the one at Aspyr a year to port a game to OS X, by which time the game's hype is almost non-existant, and because the porter, the original developer, and the publisher all need to make a profit, the game is sold at full-price, while the prices of the other platforms is significantly reduced, making the OS X port very unattractive. While it make take a third-party porting company a year to port the game to another platform, the original developer could port the game much faster and for a much lower cost, especially if the Mac is a release platform. Problem is, they don't bother because they don't want to have to deal with trying desperately to distribute it digitally themselves. Valve have spotted an opportunity here. What they're doing is they're bringing a digital distribution platform that is mature and one that many developers already have experience using to the Mac. By doing this, they will (hopefully) entice many other developers to move their games to the Mac themselves because a distribution method that still gives them a higher-than-normal (compared to boxed copies) profit margin is available. So, why have Valve moved their games to OS X and not just Steam? Well, there's a number of reasons 1) They need something to launch Steam on the Mac with!! 2) If they didn't, other developers would have no reason to have any confidence in Steam for Mac. 3) Valve now have some valuable knowledge and experience in porting to OS X that they can use to help other developers in porting their games to OS X. This is useful because while Valve are giving away techniques that they've spent considerable money trying to develop, more Mac games on Steam = more profit! So, to sum up, the people who are looking at existing market figures shouldn't be. Valve aren't trying to move in on the existing market. They're trying to create one. On 11 March 2010 14:38, Jeffrey botman Broome botman.hlcod...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not so sure that a Mac port makes sense financially. According to NPD (October 2009)... http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_091005.html 12% of U.S. households owning a computer, own an Apple computer. Lets assume all of those are Macs with OSX and not Apple IIs. :) Of those Apple users, 85% *also* own a Windows PC. This means that many of those Mac customers who wanted to buy Portal or Half-Life2 or Left 4 Dead probably already own it, which means that you aren't going to have much of an increase in sales by supporting OSX. Any customers that bought it on PC who instead buy it on OSX just reduce the total sales numbers for the PC (because they are buying it for a different platform now). I really like the Mac and OSX. I've done some iPhone development on the Mac... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4HZT-gKDVU ...so I'm not an Apple hater or Mac hater. I think OSX is really neat. It is *very* user friendly and has a lot of really nice features (which Windows Vista and Windows 7 clearly borrowed from), but I just don't see supporting OSX as making much sense financially. Here's the way I think things went down... About 6 or 8 months ago, Gabe was looking to buy a new computer. Gabe is a Microsoft guy from *way* back, and had never really messed around much with Macs, but this time he decided to get a Mac running Snow Leopard. After a few minutes of playing around with it, Gabe goes running down the hall to grab people and tell them how AWESOME the Mac was!!! Gabe said OMG! We HAVE to port our games to this platform!!1!11!. Some people replied and said But Gabe, we're not going to be able to make any money selling games on Macs and it's going to cost us money to port our engine and all of our old games to OSX. Gabe said I don't care. We make enough money from Left 4 Dead, Counter-Strike and revenue from all the Steam sales to cover it. I want to see some of our games running on a Mac within a year. So a small team was formed to look into what it would take to port all of the engine
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Adam, you're absolutely right...as I see it. This is much less about platform game support than it is about platform distribution support. But the latter is useless without the former. You accurately described the Mac dev food-chain so I won't be redundant, but the other key aspect of current ports to the Mac involves the code itself...native versus virtualization. The latest Sims 3 port for Mac is emulated. It's PC code thrown on top of a resource hungry virt environment (that's an over simplification, so don't get too upset) that runs horribly on all but the latest and strongest machines. So while some see support for the Mac means that it will run on all Macs, that ain't so. In fact, I'm venturing a guess that EA's support costs for the average Mac release is INSANE, all because of performance issues. If said code were native, most of the problems probably wouldn't exist. So I see Valve's decision to port, natively, their OB engine product to the Mac to be an effort to a.) throw more sand in Activision's distribution eyes, (go Steam!!) , develop a previously untapped market segment (Mac), and head off support nightmares with a little preventative research and development. It shows how Valve's business model and management have matured in a very short time. Good job! -Kerry On 3/11/10 10:43 AM, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02: I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Valve only ported the games because they had to. The real motive here is Steam. Selling Mac software is very different to selling PC software. For PC games, it makes perfect sense to put a boxed copy on a shelf where people can go to a shop and buy it. For the Mac, however, their users are much more spread out, and therefore putting a boxed copy on a shelf isn't such a good idea. Most Mac software houses realised this a long time ago and sell their software via digital distribution instead. Most don't even make boxed copies. Mac games however have never quite got there and still sell mainly boxed copies. The current state of Mac ports of games (with a few exceptions) is that a developer will develop a game for Windows, release it, and then pass their code to a third-party developer (Aspyr is an example), who will then port the game to OS X and sell it. The problem here is that it can take a team such as the one at Aspyr a year to port a game to OS X, by which time the game's hype is almost non-existant, and because the porter, the original developer, and the publisher all need to make a profit, the game is sold at full-price, while the prices of the other platforms is significantly reduced, making the OS X port very unattractive. While it make take a third-party porting company a year to port the game to another platform, the original developer could port the game much faster and for a much lower cost, especially if the Mac is a release platform. Problem is, they don't bother because they don't want to have to deal with trying desperately to distribute it digitally themselves. Valve have spotted an opportunity here. What they're doing is they're bringing a digital distribution platform that is mature and one that many developers already have experience using to the Mac. By doing this, they will (hopefully) entice many other developers to move their games to the Mac themselves because a distribution method that still gives them a higher-than-normal (compared to boxed copies) profit margin is available. So, why have Valve moved their games to OS X and not just Steam? Well, there's a number of reasons 1) They need something to launch Steam on the Mac with!! 2) If they didn't, other developers would have no reason to have any confidence in Steam for Mac. 3) Valve now have some valuable knowledge and experience in porting to OS X that they can use to help other developers in porting their games to OS X. This is useful because while Valve are giving away techniques that they've spent considerable money trying to develop, more Mac games on Steam = more profit! So, to sum up, the people who are looking at existing market figures shouldn't be. Valve aren't trying to move in on the existing market. They're trying to create one. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
It also re-asserts Steams position as the best digital distribution system available. Stopping other new platforms such as impulse that support mac from taking control is a wise move. On 11 March 2010 19:08, Kerry Dorsey kdor...@dorseyinc.com wrote: Adam, you're absolutely right...as I see it. This is much less about platform game support than it is about platform distribution support. But the latter is useless without the former. You accurately described the Mac dev food-chain so I won't be redundant, but the other key aspect of current ports to the Mac involves the code itself...native versus virtualization. The latest Sims 3 port for Mac is emulated. It's PC code thrown on top of a resource hungry virt environment (that's an over simplification, so don't get too upset) that runs horribly on all but the latest and strongest machines. So while some see support for the Mac means that it will run on all Macs, that ain't so. In fact, I'm venturing a guess that EA's support costs for the average Mac release is INSANE, all because of performance issues. If said code were native, most of the problems probably wouldn't exist. So I see Valve's decision to port, natively, their OB engine product to the Mac to be an effort to a.) throw more sand in Activision's distribution eyes, (go Steam!!) , develop a previously untapped market segment (Mac), and head off support nightmares with a little preventative research and development. It shows how Valve's business model and management have matured in a very short time. Good job! -Kerry On 3/11/10 10:43 AM, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02: I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Valve only ported the games because they had to. The real motive here is Steam. Selling Mac software is very different to selling PC software. For PC games, it makes perfect sense to put a boxed copy on a shelf where people can go to a shop and buy it. For the Mac, however, their users are much more spread out, and therefore putting a boxed copy on a shelf isn't such a good idea. Most Mac software houses realised this a long time ago and sell their software via digital distribution instead. Most don't even make boxed copies. Mac games however have never quite got there and still sell mainly boxed copies. The current state of Mac ports of games (with a few exceptions) is that a developer will develop a game for Windows, release it, and then pass their code to a third-party developer (Aspyr is an example), who will then port the game to OS X and sell it. The problem here is that it can take a team such as the one at Aspyr a year to port a game to OS X, by which time the game's hype is almost non-existant, and because the porter, the original developer, and the publisher all need to make a profit, the game is sold at full-price, while the prices of the other platforms is significantly reduced, making the OS X port very unattractive. While it make take a third-party porting company a year to port the game to another platform, the original developer could port the game much faster and for a much lower cost, especially if the Mac is a release platform. Problem is, they don't bother because they don't want to have to deal with trying desperately to distribute it digitally themselves. Valve have spotted an opportunity here. What they're doing is they're bringing a digital distribution platform that is mature and one that many developers already have experience using to the Mac. By doing this, they will (hopefully) entice many other developers to move their games to the Mac themselves because a distribution method that still gives them a higher-than-normal (compared to boxed copies) profit margin is available. So, why have Valve moved their games to OS X and not just Steam? Well, there's a number of reasons 1) They need something to launch Steam on the Mac with!! 2) If they didn't, other developers would have no reason to have any confidence in Steam for Mac. 3) Valve now have some valuable knowledge and experience in porting to OS X that they can use to help other developers in porting their games to OS X. This is useful because while Valve are giving away techniques that they've spent considerable money trying to develop, more Mac games on Steam = more profit! So, to sum up, the people who are looking at existing market figures shouldn't be. Valve aren't trying to move in on the existing market. They're trying to create one. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
And it was about time! This move should have been done when intel decided to go with mac. Envoyé de mon BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:51:58 To: Discussion of Half-Life Programminghlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It also re-asserts Steams position as the best digital distribution system available. Stopping other new platforms such as impulse that support mac from taking control is a wise move. On 11 March 2010 19:08, Kerry Dorsey kdor...@dorseyinc.com wrote: Adam, you're absolutely right...as I see it. This is much less about platform game support than it is about platform distribution support. But the latter is useless without the former. You accurately described the Mac dev food-chain so I won't be redundant, but the other key aspect of current ports to the Mac involves the code itself...native versus virtualization. The latest Sims 3 port for Mac is emulated. It's PC code thrown on top of a resource hungry virt environment (that's an over simplification, so don't get too upset) that runs horribly on all but the latest and strongest machines. So while some see support for the Mac means that it will run on all Macs, that ain't so. In fact, I'm venturing a guess that EA's support costs for the average Mac release is INSANE, all because of performance issues. If said code were native, most of the problems probably wouldn't exist. So I see Valve's decision to port, natively, their OB engine product to the Mac to be an effort to a.) throw more sand in Activision's distribution eyes, (go Steam!!) , develop a previously untapped market segment (Mac), and head off support nightmares with a little preventative research and development. It shows how Valve's business model and management have matured in a very short time. Good job! -Kerry On 3/11/10 10:43 AM, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02: I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Valve only ported the games because they had to. The real motive here is Steam. Selling Mac software is very different to selling PC software. For PC games, it makes perfect sense to put a boxed copy on a shelf where people can go to a shop and buy it. For the Mac, however, their users are much more spread out, and therefore putting a boxed copy on a shelf isn't such a good idea. Most Mac software houses realised this a long time ago and sell their software via digital distribution instead. Most don't even make boxed copies. Mac games however have never quite got there and still sell mainly boxed copies. The current state of Mac ports of games (with a few exceptions) is that a developer will develop a game for Windows, release it, and then pass their code to a third-party developer (Aspyr is an example), who will then port the game to OS X and sell it. The problem here is that it can take a team such as the one at Aspyr a year to port a game to OS X, by which time the game's hype is almost non-existant, and because the porter, the original developer, and the publisher all need to make a profit, the game is sold at full-price, while the prices of the other platforms is significantly reduced, making the OS X port very unattractive. While it make take a third-party porting company a year to port the game to another platform, the original developer could port the game much faster and for a much lower cost, especially if the Mac is a release platform. Problem is, they don't bother because they don't want to have to deal with trying desperately to distribute it digitally themselves. Valve have spotted an opportunity here. What they're doing is they're bringing a digital distribution platform that is mature and one that many developers already have experience using to the Mac. By doing this, they will (hopefully) entice many other developers to move their games to the Mac themselves because a distribution method that still gives them a higher-than-normal (compared to boxed copies) profit margin is available. So, why have Valve moved their games to OS X and not just Steam? Well, there's a number of reasons 1) They need something to launch Steam on the Mac with!! 2) If they didn't, other developers would have no reason to have any confidence in Steam for Mac. 3) Valve now have some valuable knowledge and experience in porting to OS X that they can use to help other developers in porting their games to OS X. This is useful because while Valve are giving away techniques that they've spent considerable money trying to develop, more Mac games on Steam = more profit! So, to sum up, the people who are looking at existing market figures shouldn't be. Valve aren't trying to move in on the existing market. They're trying to create one. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.comwrote: Valve aren't trying to move in on the existing market. They're trying to create one. Exactly! Probably they didn't do it when Valve first came out with the Intels because they were busy with other things and the Intel Mac adoption rate wasn't high enough. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
We will be releasing code support for OSX so you can compile your mods for OSX. The timing of that will be shortly after release. - Alfred On Mar 10, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Tom Edwards wrote: Two questions for Valve: * Will there be a Mac SDK release? * Will we be able to fill in Steam's new detail view for our mods? Getting Steam to display our news feeds would be particularly useful. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
My question is, once they make the change to the engine to run on mac, are we going to see current games on the mac aswell? Mac people have money ( look at the cost of a mac ) so I bet you can charge a little more for them ;) . Allan -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of David Kraeutmann Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:41 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac If the mod has Steamworks, yes. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Tom Edwards t_edwa...@btinternet.com wrote: Two questions for Valve: * Will there be a Mac SDK release? * Will we be able to fill in Steam's new detail view for our mods? Getting Steam to display our news feeds would be particularly useful. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
All Source engine games are being ported to Mac too, and if you have them on PC, they'll also work for Mac. Jeez what rock have you been living under for the past week? :p Thanks, - Saul. On 10 March 2010 17:54, Allan Button abut...@netaccess.ca wrote: My question is, once they make the change to the engine to run on mac, are we going to see current games on the mac aswell? Mac people have money ( look at the cost of a mac ) so I bet you can charge a little more for them ;) . Allan -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of David Kraeutmann Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:41 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac If the mod has Steamworks, yes. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Tom Edwards t_edwa...@btinternet.com wrote: Two questions for Valve: * Will there be a Mac SDK release? * Will we be able to fill in Steam's new detail view for our mods? Getting Steam to display our news feeds would be particularly useful. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Yes, its quite cozy. Room for two ;) Thanks, I was waiting for some kind of announcement to the list. Allan -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Saul Rennison Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:27 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac All Source engine games are being ported to Mac too, and if you have them on PC, they'll also work for Mac. Jeez what rock have you been living under for the past week? :p Thanks, - Saul. On 10 March 2010 17:54, Allan Button abut...@netaccess.ca wrote: My question is, once they make the change to the engine to run on mac, are we going to see current games on the mac aswell? Mac people have money ( look at the cost of a mac ) so I bet you can charge a little more for them ;) . Allan -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of David Kraeutmann Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:41 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac If the mod has Steamworks, yes. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Tom Edwards t_edwa...@btinternet.com wrote: Two questions for Valve: * Will there be a Mac SDK release? * Will we be able to fill in Steam's new detail view for our mods? Getting Steam to display our news feeds would be particularly useful. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
It's not a question of how easy it is to port to Linux, it's a question of what kind of market there is for video games on Linux, and the answer to that is not big. Alfred, what engine would that be available on? Will the OSX support be backported to Orange Box or would it require an update to whatever engine Portal 2 is being developed on (which I presume is based on the L4D2 engine?) -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
The Orange Box era engine will be supported for mods on OSX. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders- boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:38 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It's not a question of how easy it is to port to Linux, it's a question of what kind of market there is for video games on Linux, and the answer to that is not big. Alfred, what engine would that be available on? Will the OSX support be backported to Orange Box or would it require an update to whatever engine Portal 2 is being developed on (which I presume is based on the L4D2 engine?) -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Is OpenGL being brought to the PC as an option/as standard? Or is it just on the Mac The only reason I ask is due to shaders, which are currently written in HLSL for DirectX On 10 March 2010 19:50, Alfred Reynolds alf...@valvesoftware.com wrote: The Orange Box era engine will be supported for mods on OSX. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders- boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:38 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It's not a question of how easy it is to port to Linux, it's a question of what kind of market there is for video games on Linux, and the answer to that is not big. Alfred, what engine would that be available on? Will the OSX support be backported to Orange Box or would it require an update to whatever engine Portal 2 is being developed on (which I presume is based on the L4D2 engine?) -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Bucky ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
I'd love valve to support linux tbh. Most linux users are tech savvy and as many of them are or have been programmers they all respect software licenses. On windows most people are sick of paying for games and pirate games loads. Either way, thanks for the info about the Mac port, even though I do not think very much of Apple. On 10 March 2010 19:55, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: Is OpenGL being brought to the PC as an option/as standard? Or is it just on the Mac The only reason I ask is due to shaders, which are currently written in HLSL for DirectX On 10 March 2010 19:50, Alfred Reynolds alf...@valvesoftware.com wrote: The Orange Box era engine will be supported for mods on OSX. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders- boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:38 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It's not a question of how easy it is to port to Linux, it's a question of what kind of market there is for video games on Linux, and the answer to that is not big. Alfred, what engine would that be available on? Will the OSX support be backported to Orange Box or would it require an update to whatever engine Portal 2 is being developed on (which I presume is based on the L4D2 engine?) -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Bucky ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
Well, Mac support makes a lot of sense really. According to wikipedia Windows covers 88% of all desktop computers, and Mac OS X 6%. GNU/Linux only is only 1%. If you look at this pie chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Operating_system_usage_share.svg you can clearly see that if Valve supports Windows and Mac, they support almost every desktop computer able to run their games. I am really glad Valve are expanding the market for digital distribution to other platforms as well - personally I see Steam-like systems as the future of gaming. So whether how much I would like a linux port, I can perfectly see why they should focus on a Mac OS X port first. As for the whole no gaming on GNU/Linux thingey - the main reason developers don't make games for the platform is because gamers don't use it, and the main reason gamers doesn't use the platform is because the huge games don't get ports for the platform. If Valve shipped their Source games for GNU/Linux-based operating systems I am sure it would cause more gamers to use the platform, including myself. Again, I am really glad Valve is doing a Mac OS X port of Steam and Source and I appreiciate their efforts put into this. Harry Jeffery wrote: I'd love valve to support linux tbh. Most linux users are tech savvy and as many of them are or have been programmers they all respect software licenses. On windows most people are sick of paying for games and pirate games loads. Either way, thanks for the info about the Mac port, even though I do not think very much of Apple. On 10 March 2010 19:55, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: Is OpenGL being brought to the PC as an option/as standard? Or is it just on the Mac The only reason I ask is due to shaders, which are currently written in HLSL for DirectX On 10 March 2010 19:50, Alfred Reynolds alf...@valvesoftware.com wrote: The Orange Box era engine will be supported for mods on OSX. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders- boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:38 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It's not a question of how easy it is to port to Linux, it's a question of what kind of market there is for video games on Linux, and the answer to that is not big. Alfred, what engine would that be available on? Will the OSX support be backported to Orange Box or would it require an update to whatever engine Portal 2 is being developed on (which I presume is based on the L4D2 engine?) -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Bucky ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
I do agree that Mac Support does make sense, as it really doesn't require you to recompile almost every component, keeping most of their application safe from hacking. -- From: Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen hlcod...@maxsi.dk Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 5:49 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac Well, Mac support makes a lot of sense really. According to wikipedia Windows covers 88% of all desktop computers, and Mac OS X 6%. GNU/Linux only is only 1%. If you look at this pie chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Operating_system_usage_share.svg you can clearly see that if Valve supports Windows and Mac, they support almost every desktop computer able to run their games. I am really glad Valve are expanding the market for digital distribution to other platforms as well - personally I see Steam-like systems as the future of gaming. So whether how much I would like a linux port, I can perfectly see why they should focus on a Mac OS X port first. As for the whole no gaming on GNU/Linux thingey - the main reason developers don't make games for the platform is because gamers don't use it, and the main reason gamers doesn't use the platform is because the huge games don't get ports for the platform. If Valve shipped their Source games for GNU/Linux-based operating systems I am sure it would cause more gamers to use the platform, including myself. Again, I am really glad Valve is doing a Mac OS X port of Steam and Source and I appreiciate their efforts put into this. Harry Jeffery wrote: I'd love valve to support linux tbh. Most linux users are tech savvy and as many of them are or have been programmers they all respect software licenses. On windows most people are sick of paying for games and pirate games loads. Either way, thanks for the info about the Mac port, even though I do not think very much of Apple. On 10 March 2010 19:55, Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com wrote: Is OpenGL being brought to the PC as an option/as standard? Or is it just on the Mac The only reason I ask is due to shaders, which are currently written in HLSL for DirectX On 10 March 2010 19:50, Alfred Reynolds alf...@valvesoftware.com wrote: The Orange Box era engine will be supported for mods on OSX. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders- boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:38 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac It's not a question of how easy it is to port to Linux, it's a question of what kind of market there is for video games on Linux, and the answer to that is not big. Alfred, what engine would that be available on? Will the OSX support be backported to Orange Box or would it require an update to whatever engine Portal 2 is being developed on (which I presume is based on the L4D2 engine?) -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Bucky ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
I am not sure what you mean. Code has to be recompiled for all platforms (unless they are enough alike). From my understanding Mac OS X can't use Windows binaries, so they have to be compiled (does OS X use .so dynamic link libraries like other unix-alike systems?). And hacking? Huh? Matt Lima Faiotto wrote: I do agree that Mac Support does make sense, as it really doesn't require you to recompile almost every component, keeping most of their application safe from hacking. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:49:47PM +0100, Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen wrote: Well, Mac support makes a lot of sense really. According to wikipedia Windows covers 88% of all desktop computers, and Mac OS X 6%. GNU/Linux only is only 1%. It makes sense, yes, but not because of these percentages. It's probably more about Mac vs. PC than about the OS. PCs are already supported today, so any Linux user who wants to play Valve games has a dual boot system that has Windows on one and Linux on the other partition. At least that's my setup - I use Windows for gaming only, Linux for everything else (such as coding and writing this mail). Macs aren't supported yet and Macs usually run Mac OS and nothing else, end of story, so adding support for Mac makes sense because it could actually mean getting a new pool of customers. While I'd love to see Linux support, they wouldn't make any money off me if they added it. It would simply mean that I could delete my Windows partition and use Linux to play the games I already played and bought in Windows. And in reality I'd still have to keep the Windows partition around for other Windows games, so... from the vendors point of view, there is only thing you could gain with adding Linux support: Fame. It would be absolutely, positively, freaking awesome. But sadly, probably no additional income worth mentioning... Regards frostschutz ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
OS X can't open a dll file. You will have to recompile for OS X (I assume Valve are using Xcode as their development environment, so it won't be difficult). To answer Jonas's question, yes OS X does use .so dynamic link libraries, but they're given the less confusing .dylib file extension. On 10 March 2010 22:59, Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen hlcod...@maxsi.dk wrote: I am not sure what you mean. Code has to be recompiled for all platforms (unless they are enough alike). From my understanding Mac OS X can't use Windows binaries, so they have to be compiled (does OS X use .so dynamic link libraries like other unix-alike systems?). And hacking? Huh? Matt Lima Faiotto wrote: I do agree that Mac Support does make sense, as it really doesn't require you to recompile almost every component, keeping most of their application safe from hacking. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Bucky ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac
You understood me wrong hehe. Most of the time, on linux distributions, We tend to have to recompile modules(even IF you aren't the programmer). This is due to different kernal versions and other things that's installed on the compiling machine, and on the users machine. Mac doesn't seem to have this problem with all the time that I've used one. -- From: Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen hlcod...@maxsi.dk Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 5:59 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Steam 2010 mod support and Source for the Mac I am not sure what you mean. Code has to be recompiled for all platforms (unless they are enough alike). From my understanding Mac OS X can't use Windows binaries, so they have to be compiled (does OS X use .so dynamic link libraries like other unix-alike systems?). And hacking? Huh? Matt Lima Faiotto wrote: I do agree that Mac Support does make sense, as it really doesn't require you to recompile almost every component, keeping most of their application safe from hacking. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
