Captain Internet Responds
Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes statements like (sorry for the rough translation): lately there was a huge improvement with the Hebrew support, many people are happy with it but also: Linux still can't replace Windows as a single operating system and no matter how fed up you are with Windows (well he should come to my office for a visit, then). So we may have won the battle for attention, but not the war. Still, I'l sure that next time the Captain will think twice before publishing half-truths and incorrect information about Linux Unfortunately, despite several attempts by Shachar and Ira, we couldn't get the Captain to meet Hamakor face to face for further explanations. However, we're very happy with the community support and the wave of responses that came to Hamakor and the various Linux forums. We were notified on 50 responses sent to Ha'aretz in protest of the article - this excluding the large number of responses in walla's comments section (who syndicated the Ha'aretz article) and excluding those who responded but didn't tell us. Many of those responses were very creative and well-put, although we were just as happy with the plain support emails that showed there are a lot of people that care. Now, enough with the protests, lets get ready to party... -- - Aviram Hamakor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
Aviram Jenik wrote: Unfortunately, despite several attempts by Shachar and Ira, we couldn't get the Captain to meet Hamakor face to face for further explanations. However, we're very happy with the community support and the wave of responses that came to Hamakor and the various Linux forums. Is there really such a person? Usually there are several people who write those columns, all under the same name. It's done to save money. The newspaper can pay the minimum rate for the column and if you don't like it, quit. Who would know? They also use it to hire low volume writers, e.g. someone with a day job who writes one column a month or less. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 972-54-608-069 Do sysadmins count networked sheep? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 10:22, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: Aviram Jenik wrote: Unfortunately, despite several attempts by Shachar and Ira, we couldn't get the Captain to meet Hamakor face to face for further explanations. However, we're very happy with the community support and the wave of responses that came to Hamakor and the various Linux forums. Is there really such a person? Usually there are several people who write those columns, all under the same name. It's done to save money. Judging from their web site, there is one person (Yami Glik) who consolidates the answers, and possibly acts as an editor for the column. If he's not the editor, than there must be an editor for the computer section as a whole - in any event there's one person who is responsible for what's being published there, if not technically than at least for the opinions expressed there. -- - Aviram = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with PASV ftp
Quoting Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm afraid that this command line does not leave enough info in the parsed output to say anything about the result. Can you please add a -w filename to the command line, and then send (at least me) the file? In the case of FTP, the content of the communication stream is extremely important. OK. I created a file, and a transcript of the session, and a similar tcpdump from my work computer where it works OK (for comparison). To avoid attachments, I placed them all at: http://192.115.21.202/pasv/ Sorry if it's slow, ADSL upstream speed being what it is... Also, I did not understand if the machine you cannot connect with is the gateway itself, or a machine behind it. The gateway itself. Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 09:56:45AM +0300, Aviram Jenik wrote: Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes statements like (sorry for the rough translation): lately there was a huge improvement with the Hebrew support, many people are happy with it but also: Linux still can't replace Windows as a single operating system and no matter how fed up you are with Windows (well he should come to my office for a visit, then). So we may have won the battle for attention, but not the war. Still, I'l sure that next time the Captain will think twice before publishing half-truths and incorrect information about Linux Wow! Great! May I remind us all that this fury was about a remark in simple ask the expert column? Does this Captain have any official rank? Any so special respect among people? Have you seen any other replies there? Instead of polite replies correcting him, he got a flood of replies, all from the same source basically. So now He knows that there are some tens (or maybe houndreds) os people that don't think highly of his opinion. Wow! And for the record: I did write a polite reply, but didn't bother CC-ing it to the pr address. I wanted to educate the guy, if possible, but the whole press event, blaming, and such seems pomposic. -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 10:22:35AM +0300, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: Aviram Jenik wrote: Unfortunately, despite several attempts by Shachar and Ira, we couldn't get the Captain to meet Hamakor face to face for further explanations. However, we're very happy with the community support and the wave of responses that came to Hamakor and the various Linux forums. Is there really such a person? Usually there are several people who write Your assumption sounds reasonable to me, but whether it's a single person or a group of ten writers, I think it could be VERY beneficial for the community if someone (Hamakor being the obvious candidate) could invite these people for a well-though-out demonstration. It reminds me of what we did at our gliding club - the air controllers used to give u order we couldn't do (get up over 6000 feet within the next 5 minutes). So the club invited them for a flight and a lecture and since then they mostly understand our limitations and are more flexible with our needs. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
like the budkim in universaty say if you don't take out grades people doesn't bother reading your comments. Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 09:56:45AM +0300, Aviram Jenik wrote: Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes statements like (sorry for the rough translation): lately there was a huge improvement with the Hebrew support, many people are happy with it but also: Linux still can't replace Windows as a single operating system and no matter how fed up you are with Windows (well he should come to my office for a visit, then). So we may have won the battle for attention, but not the war. Still, I'l sure that next time the Captain will think twice before publishing half-truths and incorrect information about Linux Wow! Great! May I remind us all that this fury was about a remark in simple ask the expert column? Does this Captain have any official rank? Any so special respect among people? Have you seen any other replies there? Instead of polite replies correcting him, he got a flood of replies, all from the same source basically. So now He knows that there are some tens (or maybe houndreds) os people that don't think highly of his opinion. Wow! And for the record: I did write a polite reply, but didn'tbother CC-ing it to the pr address. I wanted to educate the guy, if possible,but the whole press event, blaming, and such seems pomposic. -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes URL: http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=310854objNo=10045returnParam=Y -- Idan = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Captain Internet Responds
-Original Message- From: Idan Sofer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes URL: http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=31085 4objNo=10045returnParam=Y It seems to me that the Haaretz has a link to Whatsup. If the powers-that-be behind whatsup will rearrange the FAQ such that the first question will be Is linux ready for the avarage user today? - it could help. -- Arik ** This email and attachments have been scanned for potential proprietary or sensitive information leakage. Vidius, Inc. Protecting Your Information from the Inside Out. www.vidius.com ** To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
Aviram Jenik wrote: Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes statements like (sorry for the rough translation): lately there was a huge improvement with the Hebrew support, many people are happy with it but also: Linux still can't replace Windows as a single operating system and no matter how fed up you are with Windows (well he should come to my office for a visit, then). Though I adore Linux OS and the concept behind it, it still not ready for the masses in Israel. Windows is out of the box while linux still need tuning and settings that will stun most of the people in Israel. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Captain Internet Responds
-Original Message- From: Ben-Nes Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] Though I adore Linux OS and the concept behind it, it still not ready for the masses in Israel. Windows is out of the box while linux still need tuning and settings that will stun most of the people in Israel. That's why we need... (drums please!) Preinstalled, Preconfigured, Pretested, Internet-ready, Hebrew-inside, Turn-key, Comprehensive Linux machines! Whew. If someone gets to sell these, I'll buy. -- Arik ** This email and attachments have been scanned for potential proprietary or sensitive information leakage. Vidius, Inc. Protecting Your Information from the Inside Out. www.vidius.com ** To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 09:56, Aviram Jenik wrote: Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes statements like (sorry for the rough translation): lately there was a huge improvement with the Hebrew support, many people are happy with it but also: Linux still can't replace Windows as a single operating system and no matter how fed up you are with Windows (well he should come to my office for a visit, then). It may be mild (in comparison to the harsher things he may have written), but it's definitely not an apology (which he owns us for publishing incorrect facts, not for a hostile opinion) and he doesn't take any of his words back. What he says is (more or less accurate translation): I've received many replies from Linuxers angry at my doubting Linux's support for Office programs and browsers [I still don't know if he means support for _some_ office suites or for msoffice]. To clarify, lately there has been impressive progress wrt Hebrew support with which quite a few people are happy, but Linux still can't replace Windows as the only OS on your computer, no matter how fed up you are with Windows. That said, I definitely recommend installing Linux as a second OS to whoever wants to pressure MS into improving Windows, or is interested in seeing an alternative to Windows come to exist one day. [Link to whatsup FAQ follows; no link to hamakor's reply though.] What's he basically saying is that he acknowledges our anger but stands by his words. Linux still can't replace Windows as the primary/only OS _no matter how you want it_. This despite recent improvements (in other words, it's not good, but it used to be even worse). The only reasons for using linux he mentions are to affect MS policy, and hoping that _someday_ a real alternative OS will exist. The only good thing is that he supplies a link to the whatsup FAQ, which I suppose says much the opposite of what he does :-) For people who don't know anything about linux, I doubt this response being published will improve their opinion of linux and of the linux community, unless they take the time to read that FAQ. So we may have won the battle for attention, but not the war. Still, I'l sure that next time the Captain will think twice before publishing half-truths and incorrect information about Linux Everything's relative; this probably _is_ a victory compared to what the mainstream (==non-linux-affiliated) press sometimes publishes about linux (such as Scope's recent SCO comments). Ah well, making progress by small steps... This rant isn't by any means against hamakor and the people who helped reply to the Captain (I did so too). It's just a rant about what we consider to be a victory - a rather sad state of affairs. Here's to a better future. -- Dan Armak Matan, Israel Public GPG key: http://cvs.gentoo.org/~danarmak/danarmak-gpg-public.key Fingerprint: DD70 DBF9 E3D4 6CB9 2FDD 0069 508D 9143 8D5F 8951 pgp0.pgp Description: signature
What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Since the Linux for masses issue is up again, here's my little food for thought: What's wrong with the situation as it is? What's wrong with Linux not being in every home? Why do we care if our grandmother pays for her operating system? There are, of course, a few things that I would like to have changed. For example: * M$ Word documents being a common way to distribute papers. But that's wrong even in itself, since Word isn't even self-compatible across versions. * Young computer fans not knowing about Linux, thus missing their opportunity to get a good environment to learn from. * Lack of drivers for some hardware. More, anyone? Can we be focused on the things we want changed, rather than making other people miserable by convincing them to install an OS that they can't handle? As for the moral wrongdoing of software not being free: Please spend a day watching BBC World, and convince yourselves that there are more acute problems to be solved. Let's take our own issues in proportion. And if you don't agree with the can't handle thing, please pick any random family member, and let him or her try using Linux *without* your assistance. Connect to the internet (kppp, wasn't that obvious?), manipulate some images (gimp, everyone would have guessed) or whatever. Keep in mind: If Linux, or to be more precise, the main distros of Linux, will be aimed for everyone, they will also be adapted to that level. Which means that we'll all find a paperclip helper in Openoffice very soon. Eli = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 13:30, Dan Armak wrote: It may be mild (in comparison to the harsher things he may have written), but it's definitely not an apology (which he owns us for publishing incorrect facts, not for a hostile opinion) and he doesn't take any of his words back. What he says is (more or less accurate translation): I've received many replies from Linuxers angry at my doubting Linux's support for Office programs and browsers [I still don't know if he means support for _some_ office suites or for msoffice]. Well, turns out that in my anger and haste I didn't read his response correctly after all. He actually says, doubting Linux's support _for Hebrew_ in Office programs and browsers (my emphasis). That makes more sense, of course, and in light of that everything he says later on (Linux not being a viable OS independant of Windows) also seems to be about Hebrew support only. Well, I confess I'm not really uptodate wrt the status of Hebrew suport in things other than kde and lyx, so I'll leave others to judge how wrong he is on this score. Sorry for my original wrong misleading translation... -- Dan Armak Matan, Israel Public GPG key: http://cvs.gentoo.org/~danarmak/danarmak-gpg-public.key Fingerprint: DD70 DBF9 E3D4 6CB9 2FDD 0069 508D 9143 8D5F 8951 pgp0.pgp Description: signature
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 01:40:49PM +0200, Eli Billauer wrote: Keep in mind: If Linux, or to be more precise, the main distros of Linux, will be aimed for everyone, they will also be adapted to that level. Which means that we'll all find a paperclip helper in Openoffice very soon. amor ? -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. While for now most of us can avoid the problem, how much time do we have till we are forced to write MFC under C#? (Instead of C under Linux/posix?) You seem to forget the MS is not only targeting Linux... it is targeting the Open Source concept. B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:40, Eli Billauer wrote: Since the Linux for masses issue is up again, here's my little food for thought: What's wrong with the situation as it is? What's wrong with Linux not being in every home? Why do we care if our grandmother pays for her operating system? There are, of course, a few things that I would like to have changed. For example: * M$ Word documents being a common way to distribute papers. But that's wrong even in itself, since Word isn't even self-compatible across versions. * Young computer fans not knowing about Linux, thus missing their opportunity to get a good environment to learn from. * Lack of drivers for some hardware. More, anyone? Can we be focused on the things we want changed, rather than making other people miserable by convincing them to install an OS that they can't handle? As for the moral wrongdoing of software not being free: Please spend a day watching BBC World, and convince yourselves that there are more acute problems to be solved. Let's take our own issues in proportion. And if you don't agree with the can't handle thing, please pick any random family member, and let him or her try using Linux *without* your assistance. Connect to the internet (kppp, wasn't that obvious?), manipulate some images (gimp, everyone would have guessed) or whatever. Keep in mind: If Linux, or to be more precise, the main distros of Linux, will be aimed for everyone, they will also be adapted to that level. Which means that we'll all find a paperclip helper in Openoffice very soon. Eli = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? The fact is that we already have one ISP which is Linux-aware: Actcom. They may not be cheapest, but from my own experience with several ISPs, when you work with an ISP for the masses, you can't expect much of the services that you would like with or without Linux. For example, I recall that Barak's mail relay server denied me to send mails unless the sender was explicitly a Barak domain (this may have changed). And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Have you tried Wine? Eli = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:40, Eli Billauer wrote: Since the Linux for masses issue is up again, here's my little food for thought: What's wrong with the situation as it is? What's wrong with Linux not being in every home? Why do we care if our grandmother pays for her operating system? There are, of course, a few things that I would like to have changed. For example: * M$ Word documents being a common way to distribute papers. But that's wrong even in itself, since Word isn't even self-compatible across versions. * Young computer fans not knowing about Linux, thus missing their opportunity to get a good environment to learn from. * Lack of drivers for some hardware. More, anyone? Can we be focused on the things we want changed, rather than making other people miserable by convincing them to install an OS that they can't handle? Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. While for now most of us can avoid the problem, how much time do we have till we are forced to write MFC under C#? (Instead of C under Linux/posix?) You seem to forget the MS is not only targeting Linux... it is targeting the Open Source concept. But open-source developers always choose their own tools. We had djgpp, now cygwin / mingw, python, perl... If you are talking of managers who know better than the developers, that's tough - but is not specific to MS tools. I don't see the threat here, developers are the last people to use bad tools. B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. That Haaretz site with the response uses visual hebrew, with embarrassing line wrap. I presume it was made with windows tools ;-). Yep, the web standards situation is really bad in Israel. C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? True. Putting our money with the few ISPs that have linux clue should change this sooner or later. And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Loki, Loki, where are you? -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the documentation I felt like a kid in a toy shop. -- Phil Thompson on Python's standard library = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Eli Billauer wrote on 2003-06-24: Gilboa Davara wrote: B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? Yes, very much and not only because that would still be inconvenient. It would only entrench the tradition of writing bad sites. Do you want Haaretz to stay with visual-order hebrew? Do you want all this to break when Microsoft changes some bug in IE? Do you want people with disabilities to keep suffering? If the developers argument has any point, it's with this specific sub-community: web developres. -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the documentation I felt like a kid in a toy shop. -- Phil Thompson on Python's standard library = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:45, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. Umm... But that's a chicken and an egg situation. If developers (specifically) and most other computer geeks are exposed to MS products and none other, what we've witnessed with Captain (yeah right) Internet will return ten fold... FUD o'plenty. In the long run this may kill the Open Source movement. (Let alone Linux). B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? ran as nobody, jailed with chroot under User-mode Linux, right? :-) C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? The fact is that we already have one ISP which is Linux-aware: Actcom. They may not be cheapest, but from my own experience with several ISPs, when you work with an ISP for the masses, you can't expect much of the services that you would like with or without Linux. For example, I recall that Barak's mail relay server denied me to send mails unless the sender was explicitly a Barak domain (this may have changed). Last time I checked... still there. I should add that at least NV (which I use @home and @work) has improved considerably in this respect. No longer must I hear the tech-support gasp or faint when I say I'm using Linux!... And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Have you tried Wine? Wine is too early in its development cycle to run games. (Direct3D support is shaky at best) WineX is a nice option... but the performance hit is still a major problem. (And less important [at least for me] it's not free) BTW, while not important for most, if ever aim at killing Microsoft, multimedia and gaming support is crucial. If a 14 y/o kid can play games on Linux, by the time he's 30, he won't touch Windows with a 30ft pole. Gilboa Eli = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? No, the problem is not sites only work with IE, but with sites not adhering to web standards. If we enable users to use some clone of IE (which will report itself as IE under windows ofcourse), we just worsen the problem of sites denying non-IE browsers. If we use window$-IE under wine, what will stop websites from requring a complete window$ install with some M$ DRM junk to work. Another problem, is that these sites might not work with newer versions of IE as well as not working with Mozilla. If we let M$ invent the `standards' without documenting them, we open the door for M$ redefining other established standards, which the are already in the process of (i.e. JAVA and HTTP). C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? The fact is that we already have one ISP which is Linux-aware: Actcom. They may not be cheapest, but from my own experience with several ISPs, when you work with an ISP for the masses, you can't expect much of the services that you would like with or without Linux. For example, I recall that Barak's mail relay server denied me to send mails unless the sender was explicitly a Barak domain (this may have changed). I don't know of an ISP today that you cannot connect to using a GNU/Linux system. There is the problem of no GNU/Linux support, which is fair on the side of the ISP. The real problem is that they blame the users because they use linux for their mishaps, and refuse to fix until you say demonstrate it not working under window$ as well. And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Have you tried Wine? Or even better (maybe): WineX. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- They will only cause the lower classes to move about needlessly. -- The Duke of Wellington, on early steam railroads. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:43, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:40, Eli Billauer wrote: Since the Linux for masses issue is up again, here's my little food for thought: What's wrong with the situation as it is? What's wrong with Linux not being in every home? Why do we care if our grandmother pays for her operating system? There are, of course, a few things that I would like to have changed. For example: * M$ Word documents being a common way to distribute papers. But that's wrong even in itself, since Word isn't even self-compatible across versions. * Young computer fans not knowing about Linux, thus missing their opportunity to get a good environment to learn from. * Lack of drivers for some hardware. More, anyone? Can we be focused on the things we want changed, rather than making other people miserable by convincing them to install an OS that they can't handle? Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. While for now most of us can avoid the problem, how much time do we have till we are forced to write MFC under C#? (Instead of C under Linux/posix?) You seem to forget the MS is not only targeting Linux... it is targeting the Open Source concept. But open-source developers always choose their own tools. We had djgpp, now cygwin / mingw, python, perl... If you are talking of managers who know better than the developers, that's tough - but is not specific to MS tools. I don't see the threat here, developers are the last people to use bad tools. Don't discount the SF (Stupidity and FUD [Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt]) factors. Seen anyone using OS/2 lately? BeOS? Both were vastly superior over anything MS. But lack of developer support killed them in the end. Granted, both were closed source (and at least in IBM's case, had uber-expensive development tools and SDKs), but neither lost due to being bad. Sticking the idea of Open Source and Linux in each and every developer's brain can have huge benefits in the long run. (Or the lack of my be devastating.) B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. That Haaretz site with the response uses visual hebrew, with embarrassing line wrap. I presume it was made with windows tools ;-). Yep, the web standards situation is really bad in Israel. C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? True. Putting our money with the few ISPs that have linux clue should change this sooner or later. One must wonder what the ISPs are using on their backbone... Somehow I can't see them using Windows 2K3 Server as the dial-up server... And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Loki, Loki, where are you? Dead :-( At least Epic, Id and Activision take the time to port to Linux. Yippie! Gilboa = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[JOBSEEK] Looking for a job
Hello, I'm looking for some system and/or Java and/or C/C++ and/or network programming job. My resume is available in multiple formats under: http://picton.bard.org.il/Resume-li (MS Word, OpenOffice, RTF and HTML) Thanks for any pointers, --Amos Shapira = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. But the developers don't call the shots. Their managers do. You want Free development tools? good, we need to get to the managers and this goes through the public. B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? I would, because it isn't Free Software (or Open Sourced one) and so should you - because you can't fix bugs in IE, because you can't give IE to your friends legally (for those not following the news - future versions of IE will no longer be free-as-in-beer downloads but parts of the OS, updated via OS service packs with all that entails), because MS will continue to embrrace and distort web standarts until they will not be standarts and use this power to make *Apache* a non viable option. In short - because it wont stop with this one single app. And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Have you tried Wine? Have you tried Freedom? :-) Gilad = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Quoting Eli Billauer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Keep in mind: If Linux, or to be more precise, the main distros of Linux, will be aimed for everyone, they will also be adapted to that level. Which means that we'll all find a paperclip helper in Openoffice very soon. Bt... Faulty thinking here. One of the faulty thoughts that bog Linux Desktop is the belief that Windows is the right way to cater for the common people, and therefore, if we cater to those people, we have to do it the Windows way. Thus, both Gnome and KDE look surprisingly like Windows, and OpenOffice looks not-so-surprisingly like MS-Office. Well, it ain't necessarily so. Have you heard of an operating system called MacOS X? Surprisingly, it's very simple to use for lay users - it has a cool attractive GUI, simple utilities every grandmother can understand, and no annoying paperclip icons. But it also has a Unixish core, which basically means that almost every application you know in the Linux world has been or can be adapted to MacOS X. You can access the command line and do everything you need. So, basically, all the power is in, but the hassle has been spared from the lay people. I'm not trying to do an Apple commercial here - the point is that this is the example we need to learn from. Maybe adopt the old Apple slogan (Think Different, and I also support the new one - Switch). MacOS X is a proof that you can make an OS which is easy on the user and powerful enough for the power user. If you manage to combine that with the obvious Linux benefits (everything is transparent, no secret holes kept from the users, etc.), then you hit the target. The bottom line is that when we state a goal of Conquering the Desktop, it's not synonymous with Being Like Windows. I want the former, I would like to get away from the latter. Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Other Truetype fonts in RH9
I just upgraded to RH9, and although xfontsel will see my other, locally installed TT fonts, mainly MS webfonts, qt and kde will have none of it. How come? Arie -- It is absurd to seek to give an account of the matter to a man who cannot himself give an account of anything; for insofar as he is already like this, such a man is no better than a vegetable. -- Book IV of Aristotle's Metaphysics = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Other Truetype fonts in RH9
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 02:37:48PM +0200, Arie Folger wrote: I just upgraded to RH9, and although xfontsel will see my other, locally installed TT fonts, mainly MS webfonts, qt and kde will have none of it. How come? Add those fonts to your fontconfig. Take a look at /etc/fonts/fonts.conf . See how existing directories are configured, and add. Though you should generqally change only /etc/fonts/local.conf -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:45, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. Umm... But that's a chicken and an egg situation. If developers (specifically) and most other computer geeks are exposed to MS products and none other, what we've witnessed with Captain (yeah right) Internet will return ten fold... FUD o'plenty. In the long run this may kill the Open Source movement. (Let alone Linux). Let me doubt the Captian being a programmer :-). I stipulate that the percent of programmers exposed to unix is much higher than the percent of users exposed to them. I'd guess that more than half of all programmers in the world have written something for unix in their life (God bless the universities ;). Granted, this depends on the definition of developer, I don't mean people after 3-month courses. Now, do you remember your feeling when you had to use some MS develoment tool (no matter which)? Compare that to the feeling of using any linux development tool. There is precisely one reason for Unix's outstanding success: it's an OS created by hackers, for hackers. And it's almost perfect for them. MS can't compete with that, no matter how hard it tries. -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the documentation I felt like a kid in a toy shop. -- Phil Thompson on Python's standard library = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:55, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:45, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. Umm... But that's a chicken and an egg situation. If developers (specifically) and most other computer geeks are exposed to MS products and none other, what we've witnessed with Captain (yeah right) Internet will return ten fold... FUD o'plenty. In the long run this may kill the Open Source movement. (Let alone Linux). Let me doubt the Captian being a programmer :-). I stipulate that the percent of programmers exposed to unix is much higher than the percent of users exposed to them. I'd guess that more than half of all programmers in the world have written something for unix in their life (God bless the universities ;). Granted, this depends on the definition of developer, I don't mean people after 3-month courses. But the percentage is getting lower and lower. My guess it that in general close to 80% of the programmers getting out to the workforce today, will 'do' java/C#/VB most of their professional life... and with design (YUCK!) tools getting better and better, most developers are on their way to become (Winders only) apes. (And stupid ones. Heck, I heard some big chief from a big company a couple of weeks ago stating that you can't write 'real' servers in C [C++?]... only in... wait... it's coming... VB.ant! I pity the man working under this wastebasket) Now, do you remember your feeling when you had to use some MS develoment tool (no matter which)? Compare that to the feeling of using any linux development tool. There is precisely one reason for Unix's outstanding success: it's an OS created by hackers, for hackers. And it's almost perfect for them. MS can't compete with that, no matter how hard it tries. Actually, I'm using GDB/DDD as I write this and I just wish someone would port the text mode Watcom debugger (DOS/Win/OS2) to Linux :-) Hey... But that's me... As for editor. Thank god, I don't see VI or Kate crashing on me every 5 seconds. (VC1.5/3/4/4.2/5/6 style) Gilboa = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 12:19:39PM +0300, Ely Levy wrote: like the budkim in universaty say if you don't take out grades people doesn't bother reading your comments. This isn't true. I wish they were not saying that. -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 12:46:37PM +0300, Idan Sofer wrote: Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes URL: http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=310854objNo=10045returnParam=Y Although an exact URL to haaretz site is better then none, I prefer the walla URL, like the one that Boaz posted for the original article. It is much more convenient: no signing or passwords are required. Since I didn't bother to sign to haaretz I can't supply the corresponding walla URL. Beside, haaretz signing facility isn't Linux friendly, is it? -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 09:56:45AM +0300, Aviram Jenik wrote: Unfortunately, despite several attempts by Shachar and Ira, we couldn't get the Captain to meet Hamakor face to face for further explanations. 1. You might consider inviting the press to Aug 1st, whatever it is going to be. I haven't a clue for what is planned. 2. You might initiate a press conference regardless of the captain, or some other external event, writing. The fact that you are creating news, like Aug 1st or gathering press conferences might mean something. On the other hand, it could be that Tzafrir is right and other then increasing the noise level it doesn't count much. Yet since you seem to prefer the other way you might want to be consistent and get it that way. -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with PASV ftp
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 11:14:09AM +0300, Herouth Maoz wrote: As a last resort you might consider doing some chroot installation of Mandrake or some other Linux distribution. The intention is to get a minimal Linux installation that would use the ADSL and have passive ftp working without breaking your main installation. Hopefully it will give you a clue to for why passive ftp is not working in your main installation. Alternatively you might exploit /tmp, if it is a separate partition or some other scratch space you might have, to get such a non chroot minimal installation. Just an idea. I wonder myself how useful it is. -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Other Truetype fonts in RH9
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 14:51, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: Add those fonts to your fontconfig. Take a look at /etc/fonts/fonts.conf . See how existing directories are configured, and add. Though you should generqally change only /etc/fonts/local.conf Thanks. It worked, but I do wonder why ussuch a relatively complex system. I find the old plaintext so much more attractive. If we must have XML, shouldn't it come with a handy documentation and a tool to make editing easy AND A BIG FAT WARNING: YOUR EXISTING FONTSETTINGS WILL BE LOST. Or, for the ones who prefer small type, simply a conversion utility so that, the first time around, the info will be saved in a local.conf file. All the best, Arie -- It is absurd to seek to give an account of the matter to a man who cannot himself give an account of anything; for insofar as he is already like this, such a man is no better than a vegetable. -- Book IV of Aristotle's Metaphysics = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
Shaul Karl wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 12:46:37PM +0300, Idan Sofer wrote: Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes URL: http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=310854objNo=10045returnParam=Y Although an exact URL to haaretz site is better then none, I prefer the walla URL, like the one that Boaz posted for the original article. It is much more convenient: no signing or passwords are required. Since I didn't bother to sign to haaretz I can't supply the corresponding walla URL. Beside, haaretz signing facility isn't Linux friendly, is it? This one needs no registration (works for me). -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the documentation I felt like a kid in a toy shop. -- Phil Thompson on Python's standard library = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with PASV ftp
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 11:14, Herouth Maoz wrote: Quoting Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm afraid that this command line does not leave enough info in the parsed output to say anything about the result. Can you please add a -w filename to the command line, and then send (at least me) the file? In the case of FTP, the content of the communication stream is extremely important. OK. I created a file, and a transcript of the session, and a similar Hmm, it's a bit hard to see the sequence of commands in the packets - did you use -s to increase the part of the packets which gets snapped? (-s 0 should capture the entire packet). But even from the transcript it looks like ftp does some things before it gives you the prompt - do you have a .netrc file? What does it contain (remove passwords if required)? Does ftp -n makes a difference? And what does ftp -v show? And finally - can someone with access to IGLU's ftp daemon's log let us take a look at them? Cheers, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:55, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Let me doubt the Captian being a programmer :-). I stipulate that the percent of programmers exposed to unix is much higher than the percent of users exposed to them. I'd guess that more than half of all programmers in the world have written something for unix in their life (God bless the universities ;). Granted, this depends on the definition of developer, I don't mean people after 3-month courses. But the percentage is getting lower and lower. I wasn't aware of that, but then I never checked any real data. I do see that the number of open-source programmers is constantly increasing. My guess it that in general close to 80% of the programmers getting out to the workforce today, will 'do' java/C#/VB most of their professional life... Do is less important. I will 'do' these things if I'm forced too (well, except VB ;) but I'll run away at the first opportunity. The more he makes me use them, the faster I'll run away! And I will try to import my favorite tools into any given environment, DJGPP/cygwin/jython style. and with design (YUCK!) tools getting better and better, most developers are on their way to become (Winders only) apes. (And stupid ones. Heck, I heard some big chief from a big company a couple of weeks ago stating that you can't write 'real' servers in C [C++?]... only in... wait... it's coming... VB.ant! I pity the man working under this wastebasket) Paul Graham's essays, in particular `Beating the Averages`__ argue that this chief and his company will lose. A person not working under such a wastebasket will outperform his programmers, strongly enough that sooner or later he will lose. He is not releveant because with such attitudes, he will not design the future. Writing linux programs is easier than writing equivallent windows programs, so in the long run linux will define the future. No matter how big is MicroSoft's momentum, once linux passes a certain threshold, there is only one long-run result: MS will lose. Yes, I'm optimistic. __ http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Now, do you remember your feeling when you had to use some MS develoment tool (no matter which)? Compare that to the feeling of using any linux development tool. There is precisely one reason for Unix's outstanding success: it's an OS created by hackers, for hackers. And it's almost perfect for them. MS can't compete with that, no matter how hard it tries. Actually, I'm using GDB/DDD as I write this and I just wish someone would port the text mode Watcom debugger (DOS/Win/OS2) to Linux :-) Hey... But that's me... Well, it's notable that you hunger for a text-mode debugger ;-). And that it's not written by MS. I've never used Watcom products but I heard they were popular with hackers. My point is that developers are the last concern about GNU/Linux's future because they are the ones who brought it to be. -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the documentation I felt like a kid in a toy shop. -- Phil Thompson on Python's standard library = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Captain Internet Responds
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 04:24:58PM +0300, Shaul Karl wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 12:46:37PM +0300, Idan Sofer wrote: Today Ha'aretz published a response from Captain Internet to the Angry Linuxers (as they called it). The response is mild - it includes URL: http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=310854objNo=10045returnParam=Y Although an exact URL to haaretz site is better then none, I prefer the walla URL This one is for you, then, http://computers.walla.co.il/ts.cgi?tsscript=itempath=4id=404435 It's in the bottom of the page -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 19:43, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:55, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Let me doubt the Captian being a programmer :-). I stipulate that the percent of programmers exposed to unix is much higher than the percent of users exposed to them. I'd guess that more than half of all programmers in the world have written something for unix in their life (God bless the universities ;). Granted, this depends on the definition of developer, I don't mean people after 3-month courses. But the percentage is getting lower and lower. I wasn't aware of that, but then I never checked any real data. I do see that the number of open-source programmers is constantly increasing. Funny enough... I know a lot of programmers with brain the size of small planet (AKA not me) that write children stuff using VB/C# at work... and the only way for them to survive mentally is to participate in open projects. Go Microsoft! My guess it that in general close to 80% of the programmers getting out to the workforce today, will 'do' java/C#/VB most of their professional life... Do is less important. I will 'do' these things if I'm forced too (well, except VB ;) but I'll run away at the first opportunity. The more he makes me use them, the faster I'll run away! And I will try to import my favorite tools into any given environment, DJGPP/cygwin/jython style. cygwin can't do ole/com/com+/dcom/activex/non-activex/really-active-x can it? :-) Ever tried using the VC's active X code designer? (that automated thingie that writes stupid ActiveX code for you) I know a man who almost committed suicide cause of it... (Well, in his case it's wasn't a great loss if he would have succeeded...) and with design (YUCK!) tools getting better and better, most developers are on their way to become (Winders only) apes. (And stupid ones. Heck, I heard some big chief from a big company a couple of weeks ago stating that you can't write 'real' servers in C [C++?]... only in... wait... it's coming... VB.ant! I pity the man working under this wastebasket) Paul Graham's essays, in particular `Beating the Averages`__ argue that this chief and his company will lose. A person not working under such a wastebasket will outperform his programmers, strongly enough that sooner or later he will lose. He is not releveant because with such attitudes, he will not design the future. Writing linux programs is easier than writing equivallent windows programs, so in the long run linux will define the future. No matter how big is MicroSoft's momentum, once linux passes a certain threshold, there is only one long-run result: MS will lose. Yes, I'm optimistic. So am I. MS has managed to make every possible mistake. Europe (gasp) is riding the anti-U.S. wave into Linus' hands. The U.S is riding the anti-MS wave going the same direction. Only in Israel, people, I mean so-called computer experts are proud of never touching a non-MS product... Oh well, who said we're the chosen people? __ http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Now, do you remember your feeling when you had to use some MS develoment tool (no matter which)? Compare that to the feeling of using any linux development tool. There is precisely one reason for Unix's outstanding success: it's an OS created by hackers, for hackers. And it's almost perfect for them. MS can't compete with that, no matter how hard it tries. Actually, I'm using GDB/DDD as I write this and I just wish someone would port the text mode Watcom debugger (DOS/Win/OS2) to Linux :-) Hey... But that's me... Well, it's notable that you hunger for a text-mode debugger ;-). And that it's not written by MS. I've never used Watcom products but I heard they were popular with hackers. Best debugger I ever used. OS symbols out of the box, assembly, good release mode debugging, hardware breakpoints... you name it. My point is that developers are the last concern about GNU/Linux's future because they are the ones who brought it to be. My point: In the world. But in Israel you still tell a fellow developer that you don't do Windows and he faints on the spot. (Or worse, asks you if you can run VB.something on it!) Gilboa = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with PASV ftp
At 18:35 +0300 on 24/6/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, it's a bit hard to see the sequence of commands in the packets - did you use -s to increase the part of the packets which gets snapped? (-s 0 should capture the entire packet). OK, I recreated the files. First, I added -s 0 to tcpdump. Second, I ran ftp with -u and -n. It appears the authentication information is disabled by -u, and automatic login is disabled by -n. So it should now be pretty much bare bones. I changed the transcript accordingly. Reminder: the URL is http://192.115.21.202/pasv/ I also noticed that ftp has a -t option which is supposed to enable packet tracing. I wouldn't know what this means, but I tried another tcpdump with this option turned on. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but you judge. I saw no difference in the output of ftp -v relative to normal output. Herouth -- EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HOME PAGE: http://herouth.port5.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? YES!!! I don't want to use sucky explorer I don't want to need to open that program not on windows and certanly not on linux! Ely = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
kde
Well maybe it just me who missing something, but I was looking at kde site today and so the annoncment for kde 3.1.2 http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelogs/changelog3_1_1to3_1_2.php while looking around I saw that kdelibs * https authentication through proxy fixed. * KZip failed for some .zip archives. * Fixed a bug in socket code that made KDEPrint crash. * kspell: Support for Hebrew spell checking using hspell (requires hspell 0.5). so anyone can tell me how well integrated it is? in what program can one use it? would it also be included with koffice 1.3? Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
Greetings, On Tuesday 24 June 2003 22:42, Ely Levy wrote: Well maybe it just me who missing something, but I was looking at kde site today and so the annoncment for kde 3.1.2 http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelogs/changelog3_1_1to3_1_2.php while looking around I saw that kdelibs * kspell: Support for Hebrew spell checking using hspell (requires hspell 0.5). so anyone can tell me how well integrated it is? in what program can one use it? would it also be included with koffice 1.3? From KDE 3.1.2 and above it should work well in all KDE programs that have spell checking, e.g. KEdit. Just go to your spell-checking configuration dialog through KControl or the specific app's Configuration dialog and choose HSpell as your speller. KDE 3.2 will also have as-you-type spell checking in KMail and text boxes in forms in Konqueror, and Hebrew works nicely in those too in KDE CVS (see the hspell site for a screenshot). It currently doesn't work with koffice 1.2.x apps, but it should be in koffice 1.3. Regards. -- Meni Livne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
Dear Eli, I am using kde3.1.2 from texstar rpms. In those rpms there is some kind of as you write spell checking and I am using it even in hebrew. , ? ? Those three words are displayed here in red, as misspelled. I can also you HSpell in the spell checker dialog as you can in english (which is the default behavior in kde3.1.x) and for the test for HSpell: it guessed right only , even it did not guess (the closest I got was ) . All the other I got were, really too far away guesses. , 24 2003, 22:52, Meni Livne : Greetings, On Tuesday 24 June 2003 22:42, Ely Levy wrote: Well maybe it just me who missing something, but I was looking at kde site today and so the annoncment for kde 3.1.2 http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelogs/changelog3_1_1to3_1_2.php while looking around I saw that kdelibs * kspell: Support for Hebrew spell checking using hspell (requires hspell 0.5). There is support in kde, but remember that hspell can work only when the locales are set to C. In the package I made for Mandrake (which is found in iglu) I have put the main perl script wraped inside a bash script which sets the locales to C and calls the original perl script. A nice a hack until HSpell will be fixed. I must admit that it is kinda slow, but it does work, even here in kmail 3.1.2-texstar. You can try it in kedit where it works out of the box if you specify the spell checker correctly. so anyone can tell me how well integrated it is? in what program can one use it? would it also be included with koffice 1.3? Koffice 1.2.1 cannot use hspell, btw. From KDE 3.1.2 and above it should work well in all KDE programs that have spell checking, e.g. KEdit. Just go to your spell-checking configuration dialog through KControl or the specific app's Configuration dialog and choose HSpell as your speller. KDE 3.2 will also have as-you-type spell checking in KMail and text boxes in forms in Konqueror, and Hebrew works nicely in those too in KDE CVS (see the hspell site for a screenshot). It currently doesn't work with koffice 1.2.x apps, but it should be in koffice 1.3. We have our hopes high... I hope that it will not go down... -- - diego _ / As usual, this being a 1.3.x release, I \ | haven't even compiled this kernel yet. | | So if it works, you should be doubly| | impressed. (Linus Torvalds, announcing | | kernel 1.3.3 on the linux-kernel| \ mailing list.) / - \ ^__^ \ (xx)\___ (__)\ )\/\ U ||w | || || Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003, Diego Iastrubni wrote about Re: kde: it guessed right only , even ??? it did not guess (the closest I got was ?) . All the other I got were, really too far away guesses. , 24 ?? 2003, 22:52, Meni Livne ?: Hspell's current correction algorithm is very simplistic: it tries to correct problematic Hebrew spelling mistakes - not typos (which anybody can correct on their own). Those mistakes include writing and extra vav or yud or missing one, replacing chet with chaf and all the similar mistakes, and so on. It also assumes only one mistake per word when correcting, so don't expect it to find a word that is off by two letters. This was not only laziness on our part - there's a reason behind this madness. The problem is that in Hebrew, more than in English, many seemingly random words turn out to be correct words. If you take a mispelled word and look for all the words that have any 2 letters changed, you might end up with dozens of useless suggestions. Anyway, it should be very easy to modify hspell to use a different correction algorithm. If anybody can suggest other things the corrector should try, I'll gladly consider them. If anybody can point me to existing research on this topic, it would also be nice. By the way, further into the forseeable future, Hspell will be smarter about recognizing valid uses of prefixes, and you'll no longer see some of the silly suggestions you saw like (+, a non-sensical prefix for this verb). I must admit that it is kinda slow, but it does work, even here in kmail 3.1.2-texstar. You can try it in kedit where it works out of the box if you specify the spell checker correctly. The announcement I'm going to make now is a little premature, but I'll make it anyway: the next version of Hspell (0.6) will include a new hspell -a front-end written in C. This new front-end is already working quite well and I now started testing it and completing the last missing features before we can send it to some of you people for alpha-testing. The performance difference between the new hspell -a and the old one is staggering: Startup time is about 30 (!) times faster (down to only 1/3 second on my slow Pentium 500) and memory consumption is about 6 times smaller (an hspell process now takes less memory than an xterm process, on my system). The Hspell installation remains a tiny 100K :) The new version will hopefully be released sometime next month, but no firm release date has been set yet. Koffice 1.2.1 cannot use hspell, btw. Why? Can it use an ispell -a-like program for doing spell-checking? If it can use ispell -a and not hspell -a, maybe hspell -a is still missing necessary features. I'd be happy to know what these are. Note that Dan and I (the Hspell developers) do not use all the countless editors, word-processors, mailers, and other systems that could use Hebrew spell-checking, so we very much appreciate when somebody takes it upon themselves to make sure that some application could make use of Hspell - like Meni Livne has been doing with KDE. It currently doesn't work with koffice 1.2.x apps, but it should be in koffice 1.3. We have our hopes high... I hope that it will not go down... Not if I and Dan (on the Hspell side) and Meni (on the KDE side) can help it :) -- Nadav Har'El|Wednesday, Jun 25 2003, 25 Sivan 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |A language is a dialect with an army. http://nadav.harel.org.il | To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with PASV ftp
Herouth Maoz wrote: At 18:35 +0300 on 24/6/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I recreated the files. First, I added -s 0 to tcpdump. Second, I ran ftp with -u and -n. It appears the authentication information is disabled by -u, and automatic login is disabled by -n. So it should now be pretty much bare bones. I changed the transcript accordingly. Reminder: the URL is http://192.115.21.202/pasv/ May I inquire what FTP client this is? It seems to be severely broken. Your transcript says: ftp ls 227 Entering Passive Mode (192,117,122,34,58,58). ftp: connect: Connection timed out This means that FTP is supposed to connect to port 14906 on iglu. The next thing in the dump, however are SYN packets leaving destined for port zero!! It's not very suprising that no reply is seen. Can you try another FTP client? This may just be a bug in your program. I also noticed that ftp has a -t option which is supposed to enable packet tracing. I wouldn't know what this means, but I tried another tcpdump with this option turned on. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but you judge. I saw no difference in the output of ftp -v relative to normal output. Herouth What client is this? -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
I think it can be done using aspell, they are still stalling the prefix suffix support but if someone would help them add it, it won't be too hard to write a module for aspell that uses hspell's logic/wordlist Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On 24 Jun 2003, Gilboa Davara wrote: I was looking into ways to integrate hspell under Abiword and evolution. Thus far... I found none. Ummm... Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 22:42, Ely Levy wrote: Well maybe it just me who missing something, but I was looking at kde site today and so the annoncment for kde 3.1.2 http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelogs/changelog3_1_1to3_1_2.php while looking around I saw that kdelibs * https authentication through proxy fixed. * KZip failed for some .zip archives. * Fixed a bug in socket code that made KDEPrint crash. * kspell: Support for Hebrew spell checking using hspell (requires hspell 0.5). so anyone can tell me how well integrated it is? in what program can one use it? would it also be included with koffice 1.3? Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 22:57, Gilboa Davara wrote: I was looking into ways to integrate hspell under Abiword and evolution. Thus far... I found none. I would guess they support ispell, don't they? Doing it in KDE was fairly easy since it already has support for ispell, and thanks to hspell's ispell emulation mode (hspell -a), little changes had to be done to KDE's spell checking API for having it be able to use hspell. So if Abiword and Evolution (or in general, what is it called, gtk-spell?) have support for ispell, that's the direction to go in your programs. Ummm... Gilboa Regards. -- Meni Livne [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
Last time I checked the aspell site I saw nothing about Hebrew support. Sure... I'm willing it help. (On the other hand, I doubt that they can use lousy C programmers :p) Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 23:07, Ely Levy wrote: I think it can be done using aspell, they are still stalling the prefix suffix support but if someone would help them add it, it won't be too hard to write a module for aspell that uses hspell's logic/wordlist Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On 24 Jun 2003, Gilboa Davara wrote: I was looking into ways to integrate hspell under Abiword and evolution. Thus far... I found none. Ummm... Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 22:42, Ely Levy wrote: Well maybe it just me who missing something, but I was looking at kde site today and so the annoncment for kde 3.1.2 http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelogs/changelog3_1_1to3_1_2.php while looking around I saw that kdelibs * https authentication through proxy fixed. * KZip failed for some .zip archives. * Fixed a bug in socket code that made KDEPrint crash. * kspell: Support for Hebrew spell checking using hspell (requires hspell 0.5). so anyone can tell me how well integrated it is? in what program can one use it? would it also be included with koffice 1.3? Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
Yeah... I think both are using the gtk-spell module. Maybe we (I) should contact the gtk-spell team and offer them help to adopt the hspell for Hebrew. I should add the for now evolution doesn't even support bidi (or at least I don't seem to find a way to enable it) so maybe this should take precedence. Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 23:08, Meni Livne wrote: On Tuesday 24 June 2003 22:57, Gilboa Davara wrote: I was looking into ways to integrate hspell under Abiword and evolution. Thus far... I found none. I would guess they support ispell, don't they? Doing it in KDE was fairly easy since it already has support for ispell, and thanks to hspell's ispell emulation mode (hspell -a), little changes had to be done to KDE's spell checking API for having it be able to use hspell. So if Abiword and Evolution (or in general, what is it called, gtk-spell?) have support for ispell, that's the direction to go in your programs. Ummm... Gilboa Regards. -- Meni Livne [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with PASV ftp
At 22:43 +0300 on 24/6/2003, Shachar Shemesh wrote: May I inquire what FTP client this is? It seems to be severely broken. Your transcript says: That's the basic ftp client, that comes with every unix system since ftp was invented... Judging by the man page, it's based on the BSD4.2 client, with some enhancements. I'm a bit puzzled at your question - don't you have the same command in your machine? I never encountered a system that didn't have it. The problem, I remind you, exists also in ncftp, curl and wget, but they do their own tricks and I wanted to use a simple client. I added a tcpdump of a similar session done using ncftp, and the ncftp trace as well. As you can see, ncftp does a lot of stuff to check the target server's capabilities before the relevant things. Also, I couldn't run a port attempt after the pasv attempt, because ncftp disconnects after the first failure, as you can see in the trace. Herouth -- EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HOME PAGE: http://herouth.port5.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
it's not hebrew support it suffix/preffix support you need to make hebrew spell checking Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On 24 Jun 2003, Gilboa Davara wrote: Last time I checked the aspell site I saw nothing about Hebrew support. Sure... I'm willing it help. (On the other hand, I doubt that they can use lousy C programmers :p) Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 23:07, Ely Levy wrote: I think it can be done using aspell, they are still stalling the prefix suffix support but if someone would help them add it, it won't be too hard to write a module for aspell that uses hspell's logic/wordlist Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On 24 Jun 2003, Gilboa Davara wrote: I was looking into ways to integrate hspell under Abiword and evolution. Thus far... I found none. Ummm... Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 22:42, Ely Levy wrote: Well maybe it just me who missing something, but I was looking at kde site today and so the annoncment for kde 3.1.2 http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelogs/changelog3_1_1to3_1_2.php while looking around I saw that kdelibs * https authentication through proxy fixed. * KZip failed for some .zip archives. * Fixed a bug in socket code that made KDEPrint crash. * kspell: Support for Hebrew spell checking using hspell (requires hspell 0.5). so anyone can tell me how well integrated it is? in what program can one use it? would it also be included with koffice 1.3? Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
the version which is now on development (1.4 it was?) supports bidi. Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On 24 Jun 2003, Gilboa Davara wrote: Yeah... I think both are using the gtk-spell module. Maybe we (I) should contact the gtk-spell team and offer them help to adopt the hspell for Hebrew. I should add the for now evolution doesn't even support bidi (or at least I don't seem to find a way to enable it) so maybe this should take precedence. Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 23:08, Meni Livne wrote: On Tuesday 24 June 2003 22:57, Gilboa Davara wrote: I was looking into ways to integrate hspell under Abiword and evolution. Thus far... I found none. I would guess they support ispell, don't they? Doing it in KDE was fairly easy since it already has support for ispell, and thanks to hspell's ispell emulation mode (hspell -a), little changes had to be done to KDE's spell checking API for having it be able to use hspell. So if Abiword and Evolution (or in general, what is it called, gtk-spell?) have support for ispell, that's the direction to go in your programs. Ummm... Gilboa Regards. -- Meni Livne [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
Doesn't really work. As you see from the above. (Visual Hebrew charset) Am I missing something? (I'm using the 1.4 release.) Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 23:39, Ely Levy wrote: the version which is now on development (1.4 it was?) supports bidi. Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On 24 Jun 2003, Gilboa Davara wrote: Yeah... I think both are using the gtk-spell module. Maybe we (I) should contact the gtk-spell team and offer them help to adopt the hspell for Hebrew. I should add the for now evolution doesn't even support bidi (or at least I don't seem to find a way to enable it) so maybe this should take precedence. Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 23:08, Meni Livne wrote: On Tuesday 24 June 2003 22:57, Gilboa Davara wrote: I was looking into ways to integrate hspell under Abiword and evolution. Thus far... I found none. I would guess they support ispell, don't they? Doing it in KDE was fairly easy since it already has support for ispell, and thanks to hspell's ispell emulation mode (hspell -a), little changes had to be done to KDE's spell checking API for having it be able to use hspell. So if Abiword and Evolution (or in general, what is it called, gtk-spell?) have support for ispell, that's the direction to go in your programs. Ummm... Gilboa Regards. -- Meni Livne [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 11:47:25PM +0300, Gilboa Davara wrote: Doesn't really work. As you see from the above. (Visual Hebrew charset) Am I missing something? (I'm using the 1.4 release.) Might I suggest that you use a charset name that is used with logical Hebrew? ISO-8859-8-i windows-1255 UTF-8 -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with PASV ftp
Herouth Maoz wrote: At 22:43 +0300 on 24/6/2003, Shachar Shemesh wrote: May I inquire what FTP client this is? It seems to be severely broken. Your transcript says: That's the basic ftp client, that comes with every unix system since ftp was invented... Judging by the man page, it's based on the BSD4.2 client, with some enhancements. I'm a bit puzzled at your question - don't you have the same command in your machine? I never encountered a system that didn't have it. The problem, I remind you, exists also in ncftp, curl and wget, but they do their own tricks and I wanted to use a simple client. I added a tcpdump of a similar session done using ncftp, and the ncftp trace as well. As you can see, ncftp does a lot of stuff to check the target server's capabilities before the relevant things. Also, I couldn't run a port attempt after the pasv attempt, because ncftp disconnects after the first failure, as you can see in the trace. Herouth I am without an explanation. The dump, as taken FROM THE MACHINE ITSELF already shows no reason of working. Whatever the problem is, it happens before the packets go out on the network. On the other hand, the applications you use are well standard applications, and there is no reason to think any of them at fault. I have just one more long shot, and then I officially announce giving up on your problem. Can you please try iptables -L -t nat? Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with PASV ftp
Shachar Shemesh wrote: I am without an explanation. The dump, as taken FROM THE MACHINE ITSELF already shows no reason of working. Whatever the problem is, it happens before the packets go out on the network. On the other hand, the applications you use are well standard applications, and there is no reason to think any of them at fault. I have just one more long shot, and then I officially announce giving up on your problem. Can you please try iptables -L -t nat? Shachar As the previous mail claimed these are the last options, call these post last options. First, try to telnet to port 13261 on IGLU, and see with tcpdump what the outgoing packet look like (in particular - what's their destination port). Also, instead of doing iptables -L -t nat, do iptables-save /tmp/tables. Let's see your ENTIRE policy together. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems with PASV ftp
At 00:07 +0300 on 25/6/2003, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Can you please try iptables -L -t nat? Well, with the firewall up, it's: Chain PREROUTING (policy ACCEPT) target prot opt source destination Chain POSTROUTING (policy ACCEPT) target prot opt source destination ppp_masq all -- anywhere anywhere Chain OUTPUT (policy ACCEPT) target prot opt source destination Chain ppp_masq (1 references) target prot opt source destination MASQUERADE all -- 192.168.1.0/24 anywhere But with the firewall down (which is how it was when I created each of the tcpdumps): Chain PREROUTING (policy ACCEPT) target prot opt source destination Chain POSTROUTING (policy ACCEPT) target prot opt source destination Chain OUTPUT (policy ACCEPT) target prot opt source destination I have a strange feeling this problem is at the kernel level, somewhere lower than iptables. Herouth -- EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HOME PAGE: http://herouth.port5.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003, Ely Levy wrote about Re: kde: I think it can be done using aspell, they are still stalling the prefix suffix support but if someone would help them add it, it won't be too hard to write a module for aspell that uses hspell's logic/wordlist Aspell is not likely to have affix-compression anytime soon (they've been working on it for ages) but Ispell and the OpenOffice MySpell do have such support. The harder part is using Hspell's word list, and our knowledge of Hebrew prefixes, to create a much smaller (about 10-fold smaller) affix-compressed list to be used by such spell-checkers. While we have fairly good ideas on how this should be done, it is anything but trivial, and it will be postponed till after Hspell 1.0 unless another developer starts working on Hspell. The existing hspell -a pipe interface seems to be supported by a good variety of applications with only small modifications, so it is a solution for the time being. -- Nadav Har'El|Wednesday, Jun 25 2003, 25 Sivan 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |You may only be one person to the world, http://nadav.harel.org.il |but may also be the world to one person. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hebrew on Evolution (was: kde)
No go. Same problem. They have right justification but I don't see no bidi option. Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 23:59, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 11:47:25PM +0300, Gilboa Davara wrote: Doesn't really work. As you see from the above. (Visual Hebrew charset) Am I missing something? (I'm using the 1.4 release.) Might I suggest that you use a charset name that is used with logical Hebrew? ISO-8859-8-i windows-1255 UTF-8 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 00:48:01 +0300 Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hspell's current correction algorithm is very simplistic: it tries to correct problematic Hebrew spelling mistakes - not typos (which anybody can correct on their own). Those mistakes include writing and extra vav or yud or missing one, replacing chet with chaf and all the similar mistakes, and so on. It also assumes only one mistake per word when correcting, so don't expect it to find a word that is off by two letters. Is there an soundex algorithm for hebrew? If there is than we can precompute soundex values for all dictionary words and store them in some sorted data structure (say, a dbm file). Than we can present all words with same soundex. -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. --Robert Wilensky, University of California = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde
On Wednesday 25 June 2003 00:48, Nadav Har'El wrote: Koffice 1.2.1 cannot use hspell, btw. Why? Can it use an ispell -a-like program for doing spell-checking? If it can use ispell -a and not hspell -a, maybe hspell -a is still missing necessary features. I'd be happy to know what these are. KOffice apps can use 'ispell -a', but the problem is not on hspell's side. They don't use kspell like all other KDE-based apps, but their own library, so they're not affected by the changes done in KDE 3.1.2. So adaptation to hspell has to be done there separately and it'll be there in the next release of KOffice, 1.3, which should be out around September. Regards. -- Meni Livne [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
