[biofuels-biz] Citing Fire Risk, U.S. to Expand California Logging
I wonder if any of the wood will be relegated to use as biofuel, or if all of it will be used in building? The word last summer was that lumber for building was at a premium in part due to construction in Iraq. [Side-note: one sustainability-minded builder, who often favors steel or concrete or other materials, remarked to me that he thought it was particularly bad to use that lumber in Iraq, given that the climate would shorten the lifespan of it pretty quickly? In any event, given the struggles of the US steel industry, I also sort of wondered why the idea didn't surface to export some steel studs there from the US instead of just building-wood. I know, these ideas of mine don't reflect an accurate view of the present economics of the building industry, but I did want to at least mention them since not much mainstream discussion seemed to occurr at all.] When the topic of forestry and improved sustainability practices comes up in discussions, one of the things that has made an impression on me is that the best-effort solutions from the point of view of advocates of sustainable mature solutions, seem to involve a sort of combined, balanced, maybe even complex, mix of actions, and not just how much do you cut. I am thinking, for example, of an article I read about Flagstaff, a year or two ago, where the (relatively well-to-do) folks in that community made an effort to study and implement better solutions that would help prevent a disaster. As to use of wood as biofuel, I am not saying I know that to be super-adviseable in this situation, I am just questioning whether the idea might have validity here or elsewhere, in addition to its use in the high priced lubmer-building-material dept. MM http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=585e=3u=/nm/20040123/sc_nm/environment_california_logging_dc Citing Fire Risk, U.S. to Expand California Logging Fri Jan 23, 1:25 AM ET Add Science - Reuters to My Yahoo! By Adam Tanner SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - U.S. forestry officials announced on Thursday that they would significantly expand the amount of logging allowed in California's Sierra Nevada mountains in what they described as an effort to curb wildfires. Environmental groups and a California state official attacked the plan as showing disregard for the environment. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (news - web sites)'s Forest Service said it would permit logging of 700,000 acres over the next 20 years. I personally witnessed the human suffering and catastrophic damage caused by those fires, Forest Service Regional Forester Jack Blackwell said. I am personally convinced that future droughts in the Sierra Nevada, coupled with periods of wind and high temperatures, could lead to the same devastation there, he said in a statement. It is my professional responsibility to take decisive action. State Attorney General Bill Lockyer, a Democrat, condemned the decision. Once again, the Bush White House has demonstrated its continued disregard for the environment and willingness to sacrifice natural resources Californians cherish, he said. Under the guise of addressing fire risk, the revised framework will substantially increase commercial logging, endanger wildlife habitats and weaken water quality protections and grazing limitations. The Sierra Nevada region spans 400 miles along the eastern edge of California and is home to grizzly bear, mountain sheep and sequoia, pine, and aspen trees. In December, President Bush (news - web sites) signed into law a plan he said would reduce the risk of wildfires in federal forests. Environmental groups called it a giveaway to the timber industry. Californians were reminded of the dangers of forest fires when blazes in the southern part of the state late last year killed nearly two dozen people and destroyed 3,400 homes. Forest service spokesman Dave Reider said the plans increase the amount of wood that could be harvested four-fold compared to a 2001 plan. He said loggers would be allowed to cut 330 million board feet in the Sierra Nevada per year, up from 70 to 80 million board feet in the earlier plan. Builders use about 15,000 board feet to build a three-bedroom home, he said. These changes are bad news for those of us who live here, said John Brissenden, who owns a resort lodge in Hope Valley. Cutting trees miles away from our homes won't protect us from wildfire. People want to bring their kids to hike, camp and fish in a peaceful place, not a logging project. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http
Re: [biofuel] west texas wind+turbines
x-charset ISO-8859-1Bye! ay, but does it belong here? Tom Leue Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
RE: [biofuel] west texas wind+turbines
: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Florida Power and Light put up most of west texas's wind turbines,i believe. I believe this is a major problem in the renewable energy market. Wind projects built by these utilities, but subsidized by tax payer funds, do not serve the needs of taxpayers. Recently in New Mexico, FPL was granted a $700 million taxpayer subsidy, to build a large wind farm. This means taxpayers dish out $700 million before the first KW gets to their house (even if you can prove KW's do get to the consumer already paying a premium). The laws of physics state electrons travel to the nearest possible load with least resistance. The consumer pays a premium for a service that bleeds moneys from local economies. The DOE has shown a 70-90% leakage rate in disposable income from local economies due to non-local utilities. Locally based and owned renewable energy is the only sane solution. Heath [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: rant F-ing Bosch!
x-charset ISO-8859-1That's right, it could be because it is a big corporation, with a few bitter employees whose positions are protected by the union, or it could be a bosch thing, we don't know. But I believe it is beyond unfair to say that it is because they are german! It is not ethnic origin that mads your experiences so negative. Let us not forget that in the US, the largest ethnic origin, by far, is German, (nearly 60 million!) - English is a very distant 3rd at around 23 million (US bureau of statistics website) - The germans have brought enormous creativity, ingenuity and their vision of culture and intellectual pursuit to the US. The US would be a very different place today were it not for them. Pierre (not German) --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know, Hakan. It's an unfair generalization. It's just that on the, admittedly few, occasions that I've had to deal with German businesses it's been like beating my head against a wall. It could just be that they've been big corporations, and they're just behaving like big corporations everywhere. It was that enviro-crackpots crack that really got me, though. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
RE: [biofuel] west texas wind+turbines
I believe that of all the wind farms in Texas, FPL was the co-developer on Southwest Mesa only (a 75 MW farm near McCamey), but they do own King Mountain and Woodward Mountain wind farms totaling around 440 MW. This is about a third of all installed wind power capacity in Texas. The way the wind business works is that a developer buys the land and/or secures the leases and obtains easements, commissions all of the environmental impact, interconnection, FAA, avian, archeological, and meteorological studies and surveys, negotiates the purchase of the turbines from the manufacturer, negotiates the sales of power or energy credits with utility and power companies, secures the financing to build the project, acts as general contractor during the construction, and then sells the project to an energy company (the developer will often sell operations and management services to the buyer as well). The way that projects are named (or renamed) is often confusing and sometimes misleading. The reality of the situation is that there are a limited number of entities involved in the wind business, and at around $1 M per MW it's too expensive for a single company to build a large project on its own. Most projects are joint ventures of some kind, and more often than not, the future owners want their name on the project before it's built. Additionally, projects are sometimes resold. To see a list of who owns what in Texas, go here: http://www.awea.org/projects/texas.html -BRAH -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:01 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] west texas wind+turbines The wind rarely stops blowing out here for very long.We now have some large turbine farms streching from near abilene west to iraan-rankin and other areas.We could put up a million of them out here without counting new mexico,arizona or california.They even make our small mountains more scenic to me![you can see plum into next week out here and there are areas where you may not even see a plane fly over for several days]I believe that Tesla found ways to store and transfer electricity that were deemed too usefull for little peopleby the dragon system[it will be a real beast soon] Florida Power and Light put up most of west texas's wind turbines,i believe. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] west texas wind+turbines
x-charset ISO-8859-1I'm being provocative again. Is the otherwise interesting topic of wind energy appropriate on a biofuels mailing list? If so, will this list also cover hydroelectric power, geothermal power, wave energy, etc.? I just dropped the energyresources Yahoo group because of the unrelenting number of posts was too much to handle for long. It may be good data in its own way, but does it belong here? Tom Leue In a message dated 1/22/04 3:34:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The wind rarely stops blowing out here for very long.We now have some large turbine farms streching from near abilene west to iraan-rankin and other areas.We could put up a million of them out here without counting new mexico,arizona or california.They even make our small mountains more scenic to me![you can see plum into next week out here and there are areas where you may not even see a plane fly over for several days]I believe that Tesla found ways to store and transfer electricity that were deemed too usefull for little peopleby the dragon system[it will be a real beast soon]Florida Power and Light put up most of west texas's wind turbines,i believe. - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
RE: [biofuel] rant F-ing Bosch!
What a great idea! I just looked, and www.envirocrackpots.com http://www.envirocrackpots.com/ is available. It could just be set up as a redirect to some other website (either friend or foe), or perhaps a page of links. Imagine how funny it would be if after typing that url, surfers were directed to www.bosch.com http://www.bosch.com/ . You could tell that Bosch rep I went to www.envirocrackpots.com http://www.crackpots.com/ , and it sent me to you! -BRAH -Original Message- From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:52 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] rant F-ing Bosch! I think it is just the nature of large organizations in general, but to honour the dude at Bosch, maybe we should start enviro-crackpots.com and then populate it with stories of things that are actually the antithesis of crackpotism...i.e. the many times the crackpots ended up being vindicated to date, with more instances to follow, surely. E On Thursday, January 22, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Alan Petrillo wrote: Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: Good to know. Thanks for correcting. No problem. This is really what I hate about dealing with international conglomerates. Conglomerate: Oh we didn't build that. It was built by our Subsidiary, and you'll have to contact them directly for support. Subsidiary: Yes, we built it, but we built it for Conglomerate, and you'll have to contact them for support. Repeat ad nauseum. For some reason it just seems like most international conglomerates, like Bosch, seem to set up their corporate structures for maximum obfuscation. It really makes one wonder what they're trying to hide. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Free and Green
On the issue of storage, you have side-stepped that such solutions are part of the enviro-impact analysis of such power-generation schemes as solar and wind. Even if, as you propose, one does not engage in such solutions as batteries and such, sticking with ready-made-stored-energy until we're ready for such solutions as biofuels, this also has its own enviro impact. I didn't sidestep anything; I merely stated that conventional electrical storage systems would increase the cost and complexity of WTG systems. As it stands now, and for a long time to come, wind can easily replace a great deal of traditional power generation without the added cost or environmental impact of storage systems. We won't really have problems until we get 30% of our power from the wind. At that time, we'll have to address the possibility of not meeting peak demand, finding a good way to store electricity, or having a cheap replacement for fossil fuels to fill the gap. Besides batteries and capacitors, there are actually non-electric power storage systems that have been used successfully, but these are less than ideal. One that comes to mind is hydro-pumping; this is similar to hydroelectric, except the system is closed. That is electricity from the WTG is used to pump water up a grade into a storage tank, and that water is released to turn a hydroelectric turbine during peak periods. All those mechanical and electro-mechanical exchanges aren't very efficient though. Another option would be to use the excess electricity to split hydrogen, and then use that to power a fuel cell during peak load. This isn't very efficient either. A third option is just to overbuild and disperse your capacity, and bet on the fact that the wind is always blowing SOMEWHERE. The point of all this is that no matter how great wind power is to the environment, we'll have difficulty relying on it as our sole source of electricity. Perhaps large solar plants are the solution to supplement wind, but for now they're too expensive. Typically wind generated electricity costs between 2.5 and 4 cents per kWh while the few utility scale PV plants generate electricity for 5 to 10 cents per kWh. For comparison coal plants generate electricity for 1 to 3 cents per kWh. Maybe when those cheap organic PV modules hit the market... Comparing wind to hydroelectric is irrational. I think I made clear that the odd comparison I was trying to draw was pretty much basic physics... one of trying to corral a previously uncorralled force of nature that is relatively massive and has great potential. I stand by the comparison, sloppy as it may be. You've said nothing to dissuade. I saw your analogy, I just don't think it fits. If you have water corralled you can let some of it out when you need power. Traditional hydroelectric has the advantage of being available when needed. Corralling wind is what we're talking about. As far as I know, there isn't a cheap or efficient way to store wind or the energy generated by wind for later use. Gravity is constant and predictable, but the wind is not. Speaking of predictable, someone needs to put a WTG and a heat exchanger on Capitol Hill to take advantage of all that hot air. -BRAH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First aid for house owners. final draft
Actually, Glenn, much of the transpiration that pops off your adobe's outer surface comes from the opposite direction...from the inside of the adobe to the outside. The adobe needs to be able to breath on both the inside and the outside because moisture from the inside of the building passes through the adobe to the outside. If this moisture hits a barrier like an impermeable paint or sealant, it collects behind the film of paint carrying solubles (salts etc.) from the adobe itself and compromises the outer surface of the adobe. Then, with changes of temperature and associated expansion and contraction, this compromised area can pop off. Here in St. Louis, Missouri, we have many houses that are built on rubble foundations...literally stacks of limestone piled up and then, on the interior, tuckpointed and parged. If homeowners make the mistake of using a rubberized paint on these rubble foundations, they find that the limestone starts popping off on the inside because the moisture is passing through from the outside and having the same effect even though the interior is warmer than the exterior. No matter where you're located, you're more than welcome to join the Rehabbers Club list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rehabbersclub. We're a St. Louis organization dedicated to rehabbing/restoring buildings in our city, but we have many members who are from other areas and countries and a wealth of knowledge to share. You may find some ideas for roof repair/replacement there. Maud St. Louis, Missouri Hakan, Thanks for your comment. Yes, I am sure you are right. The problem in the past has been the wrong choice of paint, not allowing moisture to penetrate through the paint. Most of the damage happened before I got the house, and I need to make sure the next paint chosen will allow moisture penetration. Glenn I take the adobe surface problem first, are you sure that you used suitable paint for it. To me it sounds like the paint seals up at the surface and this would then be an expected problem. The choice of paint is very critical and it must allow the humidity to pass through, any collection of water on the back side of the paint will give you the problems you describe. Many historical buildings have been destroyed by modern paints and other techniques. I had a 350 year old farmhouse in Sweden and restoring that meant a lot of study in old building techniques and understanding of how and why they were done that way. To understand old traditional buildings is not always easy, but most of the techniques have a rational explanation. I saw a lot of failed renovations and almost all of them was because of sealing the construction too much, but not totally, with modern materials and especially unsuitable paint. Hakan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] re: First aid for house owners. final draft
Thor- I don't know if you know of it, but there is an organization called BuildingGreen, Inc (www.BuildingGreen.com) that publishes a monthly, Environmental Building News Subscriptions are not cheap, especially if you add in the cost of online access to their separate Product Specifications guide that actually does much of the analysis that you are suggesting. However, you get a great deal of information that makes it a bit easier for us to make informed choices. Apropos of a discussion from a month or so ago, the January issue of EBN was devoted to analysis of modern lo-flo toilets. -Curt From: Thor Skov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:36:24 -0800 (PST) To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] re: First aid for house owners. final draft Hakan, Great work! It looks quite comprehensive. I have not yet read this all the way through, just skimmed it, but I do have one comment so far. I am in the process of designing my house rebuild, and so have spent a lot of time in the past year learning about green building. Although the article is about energy savings, I feel that these should be done in as environmentally friendly/safe a manner as possible. For example, are the low-e paint, or the aluminum flakes non-toxic? Are they save to use and to dispose of? If the low-e paint is not low-VOC paints as well, should it be used? It is difficult to cover all bases of green building, as it is such a vast and rapidly evolving field, but I am wary of a focus on one aspect that ignores others. As in anything, there are always trade-offs, but they should at least be explicit. If the use of one material to reduce a specific environmental impact precludes the use of another material to mitigate a different impact, that is something the homeowner should take into consideration, imo. This is perhaps more a philosophical/holistic quibble than a criticism of your effort, which I greatly appreciate and admire. But when thinking about sustainability it is always good to keep in mind the big picture. sincerely, thor skov Message: 4 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:58:36 +0100 From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: First aid for house owners. final draft I am ready with a final draft of First aid for house owners. As many know, I strongly believe that alternative energy sources and energy conservation are two sides of the same coin. I would like comments and suggestions as usual and hope that it would be close to the subject this time. First aid for house owners. Final draft, Jan. 2004. http://www.energysavingnow.com/firstaid/ Hakan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] west texas wind+turbines
Hello Tom I'm being provocative again. Is the otherwise interesting topic of wind energy appropriate on a biofuels mailing list? Yes it is. If so, will this list also cover hydroelectric power, geothermal power, wave energy, etc.? Yes, as indeed it occasionally does, and much more besides. I just dropped the energyresources Yahoo group because of the unrelenting number of posts was too much to handle for long. This is a medium-volume list, not high volume. Messages have subject lines, nobody's forcing you to read anything you don't want to read. I presume you know how to use email filters? If not, you might find this helpful: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21700list=BIOFUEL It may be good data in its own way, but does it belong here? Yes it belongs here. First it's a Biofuel list, not a biodiesel list for instance, which could be confined to making and using biodiesel. Biofuels is a very wide-ranging subject and the list has a wide-ranging membership, with members from many different cultures and more than a hundred countries - what has nothing to do with biofuels is very much a matter of opinion and varies widely. The discussion here is open. It's been found many times that what might appear at first to be digressions end up yielding on-topic information that would not otherwise have arisen. For instance, Heath's post today in this current wind thread starts like this: I believe this is a major problem in the renewable energy market. What he then describes is relevant not only to wind but also to biodiesel or ethanol - unless biofuels are simply to be a replacement of fossil fuels, which will not work. It might make motors go round, but it's often said here that mere replacement is not the answer and will not lead to a sustainable energy future. What's also needed is great reduction in fuel and energy use, great improvement in energy efficiency, and probably most important, decentralisation, localisation of supply to the community- or farm-scale level. Big Biofuels may not turn out to be much or any better than Big Oil. If you just swap fuels instead of changing the entire disaster you'll end up with wall-to-wall industrialized monocrops of GMO soy and canola. Silly thing about it is that industrialized monocropping of biofuels crops would be (is) just as fossil-fuel-dependent as industrialized monocropping of anything else is. So now we have for comparison a specific example in the US wind energy sector of how not to do it. For a further comparison, the previous wind discussion here was on small, single household-level wind turbines. People who have environmental concern and encourage wind energy, any wind energy, might now ask more specific questions about the type of wind energy implementation. Same with biodiesel, for instance: we long ago abandoned the idea that biodiesel, any biodiesel, is good and therefore we should promote it. Does a particular project qualify as Appropriate Technology? ADM isn't exactly Appropriate Technology, eh? So yes, Tom, it all belongs right here. One more thing. There aren't many rules here, beyond the usual rules of abuse, obscenity, dishonesty, etc, but these are two of them: NO TOPIC COPS. NO CALLS FOR RESTRICTED DISCUSSION. Those rules were developed by the list as a whole over time and through a host of difficult problems, and I do enforce them. I run the list according to continuous ongoing and accumulated input both onlist and off - I do what the majority of list members wants, and this is what they want: open discussion, and no topic-cops. These are mature people, they don't need to be told how to behave. If you know how to use email properly these more widely ranging discussions don't in any way obstruct discussion of direct biofuels issues. That goes on all the time, alongside the more diverse threads: this list has been most successful at encouraging the making and using of biofuels and at developing the technology available for small-scale operations. If you have specific biofuels questions, go ahead and ask, if there's something you want to discuss, nothing's stopping you, if you have information to offer please do so. But please don't try to tell 2100 list members from all over the world what's appropriate for them to discuss here. Best wishes Keith Addison List owner Tom Leue In a message dated 1/22/04 3:34:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The wind rarely stops blowing out here for very long.We now have some large snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo!
Re: [biofuel] 4TH Batch
Hi again, Well it took 4 trys but I think I got it this time. It has been blended for about 3 hrs so far and I have seperation at the bottom. I have it in a glass jar that just holds my 1 liter plus Methonal and it has about 1/2 inch on the bottom that is different than the rest so far. I got 3 Great batches of Glop from the first trys. But I figured out what was wrong. I am embarassed to say what was the problem. In my defense I am a Truck Mechnic by trade. I work in quarts and gallons not GRAMS!!! I had no idea how small 3.5 grams really is. The little scales I was using apparently didn't either. When I used my office electronic letter scales I found out I was using 22.5 grams of lye for 1 litre of oil. GO FIGURE Now how do I see how good the biodiesel is? What kind of test can I do? Thanks for all the help so far Rick M Brownstown, Mi. Won't be good until you wash it. Even then it won't be good unless you've processed it properly, and I'm not sure you have. After your first message I referred you to this: Start here: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start I don't think you read it though, or I don't see how you could have said this in your previous post: No I did not heat the oil. I did the test in my shop at room temp. I would say the room is about 55 degrees F. Should I warm the oil first? Anyway, once you've figured out how to make the stuff, there are tests here: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Diesel MPV
Hello!!! I am picking up a 1991 Mazda MPV mini van tomorrow. The body is in good shape, but the cylinder head has a hole in it (these things are notorious for that, I've heard), and a new head will cost me about $1 200, if I do the installation work myself. (This I will do because I hardly have money to fix the vehicles I already own!) Has anyone dropped a 2.3 liter turbo diesel into one of these things before? I'm wondering if doing that might actually be cheaper than installing a new head on the gas engine. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: rant F-ing Bosch!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's right, it could be because it is a big corporation, with a few bitter employees whose positions are protected by the union, or it could be a bosch thing, we don't know. But I believe it is beyond unfair to say that it is because they are german! It is not ethnic origin that mads your experiences so negative. Unfair generalization, agreed. Let us not forget that in the US, the largest ethnic origin, by far, is German, (nearly 60 million!) - English is a very distant 3rd at around 23 million (US bureau of statistics website) - The germans have brought enormous creativity, ingenuity and their vision of culture and intellectual pursuit to the US. The US would be a very different place today were it not for them. So they are, and so it would be. Indeed, the number of Germans over here probably explains why the Guvmint, and some pig headed biggots, failed to wipe out German cultural influences here during the Second World War. One statement that I can make without reservation is that all of the Germans that I know personally, and by that I mean German nationals, are good upstanding people. It is just Bosch and BundesTelekom that I have problems with. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] rant F-ing Bosch!
Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: I think it is just the nature of large organizations in general, but to honour the dude at Bosch, maybe we should start enviro-crackpots.com and then populate it with stories of things that are actually the antithesis of crackpotism...i.e. the many times the crackpots ended up being vindicated to date, with more instances to follow, surely. I rather like that idea. What the heck, domains are cheap, and it just so happens that one is available. I might just go and register it. Not that I'm going to do anything with it personally, but to keep it out of the hands of those who would do bad things with it. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] rant F-ing Bosch!
Bryan Brah wrote: What a great idea! I just looked, and www.envirocrackpots.com http://www.envirocrackpots.com/ is available. It could just be set up as a redirect to some other website (either friend or foe), or perhaps a page of links. Imagine how funny it would be if after typing that url, surfers were directed to www.bosch.com http://www.bosch.com/ . You could tell that Bosch rep I went to www.envirocrackpots.com http://www.crackpots.com/ , and it sent me to you! chuckle And then make sure the site shows up on Slashdot and Metafilter. If I could find the guy's correct email address I'd even provide a mailto link. Then he could explain to his IT department why he has 10,000 email messages in his inbox. That would be fun to watch. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: west texas wind+turbines
x-charset ISO-8859-1On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:08 am, srshb wrote: Hi, As for the group, I agree it is one of the best thing that has happened to me, not just about energy but lot of other things that also matter in life. Best regards, Suresh. I agree. I have found some of the discussions incredibly enlightening. I would really love to meet Hakan, Keith, ... (really too many to mention so sorry I have left you out) I find the emails a bit overwhelming at times, but you need to learn to scan, then if the email seems irrelevant, hit delete. I wish people would edit the email they are answering to the relevant portions (but not as much as I did to the poor newcomer a few days ago who felt the topics were drifting.) My second wish is that people would edit or change the heading once the topic leaves the stream it started on. Often if the topic has turned to pure drivel, I start deleting on heading, so sometimes perhaps miss pertinent discussion I would like to take part in. (an example was when the comments got personal, and there was a train on anti-anti-US, when the redneck was banned.) I do like to see all sides of a discussion, as it helps me broaden my world perspective. regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] Vegoil viscosity
Is there a reference anywhere that lists the kinematic viscosity of vegetable oil? AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] rant F-ing Bosch!
Uh-oh On Friday, January 23, 2004, at 12:25 AM, Alan Petrillo wrote: Bryan Brah wrote: What a great idea! I just looked, and www.envirocrackpots.com http://www.envirocrackpots.com/ is available. It could just be set up as a redirect to some other website (either friend or foe), or perhaps a page of links. Imagine how funny it would be if after typing that url, surfers were directed to www.bosch.com http://www.bosch.com/ . You could tell that Bosch rep I went to www.envirocrackpots.com http://www.crackpots.com/ , and it sent me to you! chuckle And then make sure the site shows up on Slashdot and Metafilter. If I could find the guy's correct email address I'd even provide a mailto link. Then he could explain to his IT department why he has 10,000 email messages in his inbox. That would be fun to watch. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] west texas wind+turbines
Tom, The biofuel list is by far the best list that I encountered, not only for biofuels, but also for general energy discussions. I think that this is natural, if you really read through the JTF and its very worthy goals. Why is it the best and have no match, - A clear vision and excellent management by Keith. It has been expressed by so many lately, so I have not much to add. - A very good and qualified membership and truly international, with no dominating nationality. It is very rare and difficult to create this and it is an achievement that Keith have all the rights to be proud of. - It is the list of JTF and not a list of a biofuel organization. It is a list for furthering goals for people and not an organization or corporation. The list is for the members and not one or more special interests. It is a vibrant and living mirror of people and what concern them in questions of life and its sustainability. Of course it is mostly biofuel because it represent all of it. I gone through a few list to try to find similar good discussion groups in different fields, that I could recommend to the visitors on my web site. It is a few good ones, I have not found any with the membership profile as the biofuel list. On some you only have to say hello, to end up in a discussion about nuclear power, which seem to be the answer to everything from composting toilets to home design. I have been told that I am ignorant and bad engineer, because my English is bad and not my native language, to be a good engineer you have to be American, with perfect spelling and grammar. If I am not interested in a subject on biofuel list, I do not read the mails and delete them, it is not my goal to have people to only discuss what I am interested in. To try to limit the communication on the biofuel list or have views about its right to existence is not constructive. If you look at the Internet situation today, were more than 80% of a normal persons emails are SPAM, I think that it is not fruitful or serve nothing to do topic limitations on the biofuel list. LOL Hakan At 21:59 22/01/2004, you wrote: I'm being provocative again. Is the otherwise interesting topic of wind energy appropriate on a biofuels mailing list? If so, will this list also cover hydroelectric power, geothermal power, wave energy, etc.? I just dropped the energyresources Yahoo group because of the unrelenting number of posts was too much to handle for long. It may be good data in its own way, but does it belong here? Tom Leue In a message dated 1/22/04 3:34:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The wind rarely stops blowing out here for very long.We now have some large turbine farms streching from near abilene west to iraan-rankin and other areas.We could put up a million of them out here without counting new mexico,arizona or california.They even make our small mountains more scenic to me![you can see plum into next week out here and there are areas where you may not even see a plane fly over for several days]I believe that Tesla found ways to store and transfer electricity that were deemed too usefull for little peopleby the dragon system[it will be a real beast soon] Florida Power and Light put up most of west texas's wind turbines,i believe. - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] west texas wind+turbines
Thank you for clarifying the list purpose. I had just joined from the biofuel-biz list, as that list was ending, and had not completely understood the much wider scope of this list. It was a question, afterall, not a complaint. Tom Leue - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Vegoil viscosity
There is no single reference for this because there are no standards per se. Soy may have one viscosity at a particular temperature, but is not part of a standard. When it is partially or fully hydrogenated, this viscosity changes a lot. Other types of oils, hydrogenated or not, have their own particular viscosities, but these are not spec'ed. Even with biodiesel, the viscosity standard under the ASTM D-6751 standard is such a wide range that it has the only footnote in the standard, stating that the higher end of the range exceeds most engine manufacturer's requirements. This does not mean that viscosity does not matter, and I have been pushing using viscosity as the simplest measure of the completion of the biodiesel reaction, suitable for appropriate feedback for quality control purposes. Tom Leue In a message dated 1/23/04 3:35:36 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there a reference anywhere that lists the kinematic viscosity of vegetable oil? AP - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Vegoil viscosity
on 1/23/04 12:33 AM, Alan Petrillo at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a reference anywhere that lists the kinematic viscosity of vegetable oil? http://www.chanco.unima.mw/physics/biodieselanaly.html Google search on kinematic viscosity vegetable oil. This is just one of 861 hits. Google is great for these kinds of compact questions. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: west texas wind+turbines
x-charset ISO-8859-1Hi, I have one suggestion to those of you who can access yahoo easily. You can select not to receive e-mails. This way your mail box won't get flooded with msgs and you can access and read msgs that you like. You don't even have to delete msgs :-) As for the group, I agree it is one of the best thing that has happened to me, not just about energy but lot of other things that also matter in life. Best regards, Suresh. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, The biofuel list is by far the best list that I encountered, not only for biofuels, but also for general energy discussions. I think that this is natural, if you really read through the JTF and its very worthy goals. Why is it the best and have no match, - A clear vision and excellent management by Keith. It has been expressed by so many lately, so I have not much to add. - A very good and qualified membership and truly international, with no dominating nationality. It is very rare and difficult to create this and it is an achievement that Keith have all the rights to be proud of. - It is the list of JTF and not a list of a biofuel organization. It is a list for furthering goals for people and not an organization or corporation. The list is for the members and not one or more special interests. It is a vibrant and living mirror of people and what concern them in questions of life and its sustainability. Of course it is mostly biofuel because it represent all of it. I gone through a few list to try to find similar good discussion groups in different fields, that I could recommend to the visitors on my web site. It is a few good ones, I have not found any with the membership profile as the biofuel list. On some you only have to say hello, to end up in a discussion about nuclear power, which seem to be the answer to everything from composting toilets to home design. I have been told that I am ignorant and bad engineer, because my English is bad and not my native language, to be a good engineer you have to be American, with perfect spelling and grammar. If I am not interested in a subject on biofuel list, I do not read the mails and delete them, it is not my goal to have people to only discuss what I am interested in. To try to limit the communication on the biofuel list or have views about its right to existence is not constructive. If you look at the Internet situation today, were more than 80% of a normal persons emails are SPAM, I think that it is not fruitful or serve nothing to do topic limitations on the biofuel list. LOL Hakan At 21:59 22/01/2004, you wrote: I'm being provocative again. Is the otherwise interesting topic of wind energy appropriate on a biofuels mailing list? If so, will this list also cover hydroelectric power, geothermal power, wave energy, etc.? I just dropped the energyresources Yahoo group because of the unrelenting number of posts was too much to handle for long. It may be good data in its own way, but does it belong here? Tom Leue In a message dated 1/22/04 3:34:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The wind rarely stops blowing out here for very long.We now have some large turbine farms streching from near abilene west to iraan-rankin and other areas.We could put up a million of them out here without counting new mexico,arizona or california.They even make our small mountains more scenic to me![you can see plum into next week out here and there are areas where you may not even see a plane fly over for several days]I believe that Tesla found ways to store and transfer electricity that were deemed too usefull for little peopleby the dragon system[it will be a real beast soon] Florida Power and Light put up most of west texas's wind turbines,i believe. - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
RE: [biofuel] Re: rant F-ing Bosch!
You have to admit though that there are distinct differences between people from different nations. My experience with German nationals is pretty limited so I can't pretend to be an expert, but I can say that the handful of Germans I have met and known in my life all shared distinct behavioral characteristics and philosophical points of view regardless of their social position or the context I knew them in. Likewise Germany as a nation is renowned for high craftsmanship and over engineered products. Is this just random chance or due to real cultural differences? Like any other stereotype, there is a kernel of truth within. But what this thread was originally talking about, that is poor customer service from Bosch, may or may not be due to the fact that it is a German company. I own a classic German automobile, and my experiences with German parts manufacturers and distributors is utterly unlike those with American companies, yet strangely similar to the Bosch story related on this list. It has been my experience that if you don't ask Germans pointed questions, they get pissed off because they feel that you're wasting their time. Whereas Americans will BS with you to help you figure out exactly what you need. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Alan Petrillo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 2:13 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: rant F-ing Bosch! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's right, it could be because it is a big corporation, with a few bitter employees whose positions are protected by the union, or it could be a bosch thing, we don't know. But I believe it is beyond unfair to say that it is because they are german! It is not ethnic origin that mads your experiences so negative. Unfair generalization, agreed. Let us not forget that in the US, the largest ethnic origin, by far, is German, (nearly 60 million!) - English is a very distant 3rd at around 23 million (US bureau of statistics website) - The germans have brought enormous creativity, ingenuity and their vision of culture and intellectual pursuit to the US. The US would be a very different place today were it not for them. So they are, and so it would be. Indeed, the number of Germans over here probably explains why the Guvmint, and some pig headed biggots, failed to wipe out German cultural influences here during the Second World War. One statement that I can make without reservation is that all of the Germans that I know personally, and by that I mean German nationals, are good upstanding people. It is just Bosch and BundesTelekom that I have problems with. AP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Diesel MPV
Hello Robert, The first thing I would do is make sure that the rest of the engine is in very good condition before paying $1200 for a head. If you have any friends that do custom automotive work, maybe you could adapt another engine to fit. This is normally done with rear wheel drive vehicles, but it isn't impossible with a front wheel drive. Major electrical work would have to be done unless you decide to use an older VW diesel. Let us know what you do, either way. -- Martin Klingensmith infoarchive.net nnytech.net On Fri, 2004-01-23 at 01:48, robert luis rabello wrote: Hello!!! I am picking up a 1991 Mazda MPV mini van tomorrow. The body is in good shape, but the cylinder head has a hole in it (these things are notorious for that, I've heard), and a new head will cost me about $1 200, if I do the installation work myself. (This I will do because I hardly have money to fix the vehicles I already own!) Has anyone dropped a 2.3 liter turbo diesel into one of these things before? I'm wondering if doing that might actually be cheaper than installing a new head on the gas engine. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fuel from Pine roots?
While I was discussing WW2 with some people on line, this comment was made. The Japanese are also reported to have refined aviation fuel from pine roots very late in the war. Does anyone know how valid this comment is and if it is, how it was done? Greg H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Vegoil viscosity
There is no single reference for this because there are no standards per se. Soy may have one viscosity at a particular temperature, but is not part of a standard. When it is partially or fully hydrogenated, this viscosity changes a lot. Other types of oils, hydrogenated or not, have their own particular viscosities, but these are not spec'ed. Even with biodiesel, the viscosity standard under the ASTM D-6751 standard is such a wide range that it has the only footnote in the standard, stating that the higher end of the range exceeds most engine manufacturer's requirements. This does not mean that viscosity does not matter, and I have been pushing using viscosity as the simplest measure of the completion of the biodiesel reaction, suitable for appropriate feedback for quality control purposes. Tom Leue Hello Tom I'll refer you to the last time we discussed viscosity testing, at the Biofuels-biz list: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUELS-BIZ/3816/ Re: Viscosity - was Re: Fuel Quality Test for Small Producers Best wishes Keith In a message dated 1/23/04 3:35:36 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there a reference anywhere that lists the kinematic viscosity of vegetable oil? AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Citing Fire Risk, U.S. to Expand California Logging
I wonder if any of the wood will be relegated to use as biofuel, or if all of it will be used in building? The word last summer was that lumber for building was at a premium in part due to construction in Iraq. [Side-note: one sustainability-minded builder, who often favors steel or concrete or other materials, remarked to me that he thought it was particularly bad to use that lumber in Iraq, given that the climate would shorten the lifespan of it pretty quickly? In any event, given the struggles of the US steel industry, I also sort of wondered why the idea didn't surface to export some steel studs there from the US instead of just building-wood. I know, these ideas of mine don't reflect an accurate view of the present economics of the building industry, but I did want to at least mention them since not much mainstream discussion seemed to occurr at all.] When the topic of forestry and improved sustainability practices comes up in discussions, one of the things that has made an impression on me is that the best-effort solutions from the point of view of advocates of sustainable mature solutions, seem to involve a sort of combined, balanced, maybe even complex, mix of actions, and not just how much do you cut. I am thinking, for example, of an article I read about Flagstaff, a year or two ago, where the (relatively well-to-do) folks in that community made an effort to study and implement better solutions that would help prevent a disaster. As to use of wood as biofuel, I am not saying I know that to be super-adviseable in this situation, I am just questioning whether the idea might have validity here or elsewhere, in addition to its use in the high priced lubmer-building-material dept. MM http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=585e=3u=/nm/20040123/sc_nm/environment_california_logging_dc Citing Fire Risk, U.S. to Expand California Logging Fri Jan 23, 1:25 AM ET Add Science - Reuters to My Yahoo! By Adam Tanner SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - U.S. forestry officials announced on Thursday that they would significantly expand the amount of logging allowed in California's Sierra Nevada mountains in what they described as an effort to curb wildfires. Environmental groups and a California state official attacked the plan as showing disregard for the environment. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (news - web sites)'s Forest Service said it would permit logging of 700,000 acres over the next 20 years. I personally witnessed the human suffering and catastrophic damage caused by those fires, Forest Service Regional Forester Jack Blackwell said. I am personally convinced that future droughts in the Sierra Nevada, coupled with periods of wind and high temperatures, could lead to the same devastation there, he said in a statement. It is my professional responsibility to take decisive action. State Attorney General Bill Lockyer, a Democrat, condemned the decision. Once again, the Bush White House has demonstrated its continued disregard for the environment and willingness to sacrifice natural resources Californians cherish, he said. Under the guise of addressing fire risk, the revised framework will substantially increase commercial logging, endanger wildlife habitats and weaken water quality protections and grazing limitations. The Sierra Nevada region spans 400 miles along the eastern edge of California and is home to grizzly bear, mountain sheep and sequoia, pine, and aspen trees. In December, President Bush (news - web sites) signed into law a plan he said would reduce the risk of wildfires in federal forests. Environmental groups called it a giveaway to the timber industry. Californians were reminded of the dangers of forest fires when blazes in the southern part of the state late last year killed nearly two dozen people and destroyed 3,400 homes. Forest service spokesman Dave Reider said the plans increase the amount of wood that could be harvested four-fold compared to a 2001 plan. He said loggers would be allowed to cut 330 million board feet in the Sierra Nevada per year, up from 70 to 80 million board feet in the earlier plan. Builders use about 15,000 board feet to build a three-bedroom home, he said. These changes are bad news for those of us who live here, said John Brissenden, who owns a resort lodge in Hope Valley. Cutting trees miles away from our homes won't protect us from wildfire. People want to bring their kids to hike, camp and fish in a peaceful place, not a logging project. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more
Re: [biofuel] Fuel from Pine roots?
x-charset ISO-8859-1I wouldn't be surprised. turpentine, from pine trees, is a mixture of hydrocarbons which could be catalytically converted into fuel Greg and April wrote: While I was discussing WW2 with some people on line, this comment was made. The Japanese are also reported to have refined aviation fuel from pine roots very late in the war. Does anyone know how valid this comment is and if it is, how it was done? Greg H. -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] welcome to biofuels list
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:07:24 EST, you wrote: Thank you for clarifying the list purpose. I had just joined from the biofuel-biz list, as that list was ending, and had not completely understood the much wider scope of this list. It was a question, afterall, not a complaint. Tom Leue - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com And welcome to the list, and a very valid question on your part I think, even if there are those of us who have different uses of the list than you might. We are all pressed for time, and many of us have had experiences where there are just too many lists with too much to offer, with often quite a bit of overlap in topics, and many of the lists get out of control in one way or another. I often feel emboldened to discuss not-directly-on-biofuel topics here on this list because the moderator seems to encourage that by his own posting decisions, up to a point. He is interested to discuss various topics involving sustainability, and he also includes some current-political-events discussion in his decision-making. I do try hard to vet my topics to energy-policy-related and biofuel-related. I also have made an effort over the years to tone down some of my crossposting, to bcc now instead of just cc'ing (because the cc'ing can get disorienting), and to try to bear in mind that even if one group moderator encourages these somewhat wide-ranging discussions, that does not mean that all list participants are that interested in non-biofuel-directly-related. The way Keith has set up this list, integrating it so aggressively with the archives and with his web pages, I think that (hopefully) somewhat alleviates the difficulties caused by the robust not-directly-on-biofuel-making-topic posting. We seem to get posts here which reflect that a person has been doing a great deal of research in the archives or the web page. And, in the end, no list is perfect. Period. So, sure, a very well-intended discussion participant might find a better biofuel list, for their purposes or personality. Keith takes some risks, based on how he feels like running a list. It's sort of a double-edged sword, in my view. I did try to start an energy-policy-specific discussion group, because I think that's often my specific focus, but it hasn't attracted any members. I do use it though to post to, as it provides a focus for my own thinking. I have started one or two other groups (invention) that have a few members, though there's not much posting. And for general alt-fuel-vehicle discussions, there are actually quite a few other groups (with, in my view, much worse overflow-of-information problems, some of it quite valuable, some of it crap). Also, I ended up starting the evworld.com discussion group, affiliated with Bill Moore's webzine, where pretty much any well-intended discussion of EVs, Hybrids, alt-fuels and energy-policy-related issues is welcome (reflecting the open-ness of the editor's choice of webzine topics). Anyway, on the issue of the biofuels-biz list, one thing I wanted to say is that sometimes (often? always?) the name of the list is of real importance. I have been guilty of joining lists in the past without at first taking a hard look at the charter just really going by the name. And in the case of the biofuels-biz list name, a lot of us say: GOOD! Someone wants to encourage the production and trade of biofuels beyond the scope of Do-It-Yourself-For-Yourself! Or some such, with many other permuations one can put on that hope. So, in a way, it's the existence of the group name which in itself seems to make the ongoing argument for the existence of the field. With such a background in counter-large-business if-you-want-it-done-right-you-have-to-do-it-yourself culture, many biofuels enthusiasts may be intruiged just by the very idea of building the biofuels efforts into a business culture environment. Just a theory. I don't think Keith or anyone else owes it to anyone to continue list-moderation-activities for which they don't have time. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] States Fill Leadership Vacuum on Energy, Environment
EMS Update - Jan. 21, 2004 States Fill Leadership Vacuum on Energy, Environment Energy security and environmental issues were all but absent from the President's State of the Union address last night, as both the White House and Congress have opted not to support measures to diversify the nation's energy supply and reduce the environmental impacts of cars and power plants. Meanwhile, a number of states have stepped forward to fill the void. Maryland's recent passage of appliance efficiency standards and New Jersey's adoption of California's stricter automobile emissions standards are just two recent examples of action at the state level that surpasses federal standards. Maryland's new efficiency provisions may lead other states to follow suit, with considerable benefits for consumers and the economy. If adopted nationwide, according to one proponent of the standards, Americans would save $27 billion on their energy bills through 2020. States have also shown leadership on development of renewable energy sources by adopting Renewable Portfolio Standards. Meanwhile, GOP law makers removed Renewable Portfolio Standards from the pending energy bill last fall despite the urging of a majority (53) of U.S. senators who supported the standards. Find out more about state initiatives: Appliance Standards - http://www.ems.org/states/appliance_standards.html Auto Emissions - http://www.ems.org/states/auto_emissions.html Renewable Portfolio Standards - http://www.ems.org/states/rps.html http://www.ems.org/updates.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] States Fill Leadership Vacuum on Energy, Environment
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 06:26:57 +0900, you wrote: EMS Update - Jan. 21, 2004 States Fill Leadership Vacuum on Energy, Environment Energy security and environmental issues were all but absent from the President's State of the Union address last night, No kidding. :-( as both the White House and Congress have opted not to support measures to diversify the nation's energy supply and reduce the environmental impacts of cars and power plants. Meanwhile, a number of states have stepped forward to fill the void. Maryland's recent passage of appliance efficiency standards and New Jersey's adoption of California's stricter automobile emissions standards are just two recent examples of action at the state level that surpasses federal standards. I'm glad to see states taking such initiatives, though in my view it's a mixed bag. There may be, in some sort of ideal system, a good way to delienate as to what is a state's responsibility and what is the larger national government's responsbility. I don't think, though, that such delienation would involve drawing a line at no federal government employee shall address himself to or create rational policy or guidelines in important national energy policy matters which is pretty close to the federal policy we have now in some ways. Invoking the issue of States' Rights Responsibilities is I think an important sort of discussion, but it's also a discussion that is oft hijacked as a matter of rhetorical or idealogical expediency. By that I mean, if we take issue X, if interest group wants the outcome to be A they may identify the issue to be one of States' Rights *if it seems an expedient way to get what they want*. There are several hotbutton issues that come to mind as examples (reproductive rights, drug laws) but the point isn't what I think on those issues, merely to state that I think issues of States' Rights and States' Responsibilities and Activism, while very important, are hard to define, and hard to get a discussion-on when folks have agendas they may or may not admit to themselves or others. And how sad that we will have to wait for each of the 50 states to establish decent Energy Policies, while Washington does nigh-on-zero. MM Maryland's new efficiency provisions may lead other states to follow suit, with considerable benefits for consumers and the economy. If adopted nationwide, according to one proponent of the standards, Americans would save $27 billion on their energy bills through 2020. States have also shown leadership on development of renewable energy sources by adopting Renewable Portfolio Standards. Meanwhile, GOP law makers removed Renewable Portfolio Standards from the pending energy bill last fall despite the urging of a majority (53) of U.S. senators who supported the standards. Find out more about state initiatives: Appliance Standards - http://www.ems.org/states/appliance_standards.html Auto Emissions - http://www.ems.org/states/auto_emissions.html Renewable Portfolio Standards - http://www.ems.org/states/rps.html http://www.ems.org/updates.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First aid for house owners. final draft
I am ready with a final draft of First aid for house owners. As many know, I strongly believe that alternative energy sources and energy conservation are two sides of the same coin. I would like comments and suggestions as usual and hope that it would be close to the subject this time. First aid for house owners. Final draft, Jan. 2004. http://www.energysavingnow.com/firstaid/ Hakan I enjoyed your section on window shutters. It made sense to me, as I have noticed while staying at a house near Paris that such outdoor shutters were common, even though I had not previously experienced them. I can see how they might have some valuable energy-related properties. I don't think they're realistic though for my present home, because almost all my windows are large sliding glass doors. Do you have any further ideas on window treatments... i.e.: blinds, shades, curtains? The one idea I've heard so far is to go to Home Depot because they apparently have some sort of Aluminum-reflective type blind that is inexpensive and good for summertime to keep the sun's warming out. Also, on one or two sites similar to your own topic (greenbuilder.com, etc.) I did see some mention of shades which have a good high R value which would help in winter. I don't know if it's advisable to try to combine both products. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
