subject:"\[Biofuel\] New York \: DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang"

Todd,

Interesting.

It does not seam to be anymore than the white washing that was done several
years ago, just more along the lines of a few recruiters, being more
extreme.

OTOH, I didn't hear of any reciting problems while I was in the service.
I was a bit of a problem for my recruiter, having been stupid when I was
younger I had 1 mistermeaner to my record, but, between the recruiter and my
self, we filled out the necessary paperwork, and it went through the proper
channels.

Of the few issues I heard about, it wasn't the recruiters fault.

One was a rare form of color blindness, that the MD's at the processing
station didn't pick up.

The other was where the Army sent the recruit after the in-processing,
***after the recruiter made the promise of the MOS the recruit was to
enter***.It turned out the recruit had everything in writing and proper
forms, but, someone doing the processing decided to send him someplace else.

Well it wasn't until some 2 months after the end of basic training that the
army decided that neither the recruiter nor the recite was at fault, but
once basic training was over they had to do something with him, so they made
him the battalion gofer.

Because the recruit had the proper forms and the MOS guarantee from the
recruiter, the military gave him a few choices:
1)Stay in the current MOS that he was assigned to ( it would be treated
as a re-up with bonuses that would bring - in addition to the bonuses from
enlisting in the first place ).
2)Wait up to 6 months for a open slot in the MOS that he was guaranteed
in the first place.
3)Allowed to leave the service as if he had finished his enlistment in a
satisfactory manor.

He decided on #1 and said it was the best 6 years he had.


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:41
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


 Greg,

   could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating?

 Are you seeking dictionary definitions or a contextual one relative to
 recruiting tactics?

 You've never been present on a college campus with a ROTC contingent or
 had a family member who once aspired to be a Marine recruiter? Both are
 quite memorable experiences.

 Did you miss the paltry one day stand-down for Army recruiters on May 20
 this year (only two weeks ago) to re-evaluate their recruiting
 practices? The liberal press boiled with stories on that one for a few
 days. Not that anything's changed now that they've moved on.

 Based upon your personal military experience(s) and opinions relative to
 most things military as you've expressed them on-list, I'm more more
 inclined to let you take a look at other sources beyond my own
 disposition or experience(s) on the matter.

 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4648540

 http://www.polytechnic.org/faculty/gfeldmeth/recruiter.html

 And that's just a few of the recent documented cases.

 And then there's always the re-up tactics


http://ventura.fordean.org/ventura/blog/2004/09/new-army-recruiting-tactics-revealed.html

 Surely you're not ready to go round-robin on this one are you Greg? Many
 of the practices of recruitment are not only legend, but vividly and
 insultingly real.

 Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with someone joining any
 branch of service. The only problem I have is with those who manipulate
 others. About the only tactic that military recruiters haven't tried (at
 least physically, to my knowledge) is the impressment of citizens into
 service. But that doesn't mean that impressment is not a tactic at
 levels other than physical (see the re-up link above).

 Todd Swearingen


 Greg Harbican wrote:

 Todd,
 
 could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ?
 
 Greg H.
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
 
 
 
 
 Larry,
 
 Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are
 the policy makers.
 
 All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating
 practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative
 mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a
 theoretically free society.
 
 Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation,
 they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of
 any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a
 nation's citizenry.
 
 Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not
 under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).
 
 Todd Swearingen
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang




No, up till 9/11 most people entered the 
military for one of two reasons.

The first and most popular reason is 
Education.
They think that it will be an easy way the 
get an education, without having to work hard to get a scholarship or the need 
for a loan.

The second reason, is that they want money 
forsomething and they currently don't haveenough.

I have heard some of their complaints, and 
almost always it's along the lines of " When I signed up almost ___ 
yrs ago, there wasn't any war. I did it because I wanted to 
get'an education'or 'the education benefit's or 'to get a job and 
skills for a job when I get out', not to kill people or get 
killed".

Many of themthink that they are using 
the military, for their own purposes/benefit, but, then when they are told that 
they can not get out when the going gets rough, they cry"Not 
fair!"


The facts are:

*The militaryis just like any other company trying to get you to 
join, in that it is going to push the fun exciting stuff, while under 
emphasizing the bad.

*Anyone that thinks they can join the 
military and be subject to the possibility of being killed or having to kill, is 
living a dream that has no connection to reality.

*Anyone that thinks thatthe military 
can't or will not alter their terms of enlistment in a time of crisis 
isdreaming.

*Anyone that does not read the fine print 
on any contractbefore theysign, is a fool.

*All it takes issome checking, to 
find out what being in the military is really like. There are 
to many people in (and now out )of the military to say what it was 
like.

Any person, in anyjob,that 
think that they can take the good and leave the bad, has another think 
coming.

Greg H.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:44
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA 
  Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
  
  
  
  "To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! orI 
  don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp)."
  
  Well Larry, if that were true, we would have an increasing number of 
  "self centered objectors" instead of conscientious objectors. Most people who 
  join the military, do so with a belief (faith) that their commander-in-chief 
  will make the right decisions. When they don't, it is no exaggeration to look 
  at it as a breach of contract. You have every right to object to improper use 
  of the military (that would be YOU, if you are a soldier) due to the fact that 
  your government did not work with you in good faith.
  
  Conscientious objectors are oftenexamples of fearless objectivity 
  and heroism. They seewar during their time asa divisive instrument 
  of policy and not a mechanism for self defense.
  
  Mike
  
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang




It's true, if you have the qualification 
for it and get a MOS guarantee.

It's simple you get the guarantee and you 
read the fine print, before you sign on the dotted line.

Greg H.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Hans Reuchlin 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 14:15
  Subject: RE: [Biofuel] New York : DA 
  Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
  
  "Hey, you too can join the Army, and become a musician...", and other 
  lies that recruitement officers are resorting to in order to fill the 
  quotas..
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang




Check out the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of 
Military Justice ).
Then follow that up with Geneva Convention 
and Hague Convention, and that will give you a good idea of what illegal is to 
the military.

Greg H.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 14:22
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA 
  Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
  
  Robert,
  
  This IMHO, this is another simplification.
  
  Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any 
  exceptions?What's illegal?
  
  Mike
  robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Michael 
Redler wrote: Robert,  "...he or she becomes the 
property of the military and the commanders will do with every 
soldier whatever they deem necessary. " Point taken. But I think 
it's a bit oversimplified.Is it really? Can an army function without 
discipline? When the lieutenant says: "We have orders to secure that 
hilltop and neutralize enemy resistance," does an enlisted soldier have 
the right to disagree?My wife has a young cousin who joined the 
Marines a few years ago. Much to his dismay, and his family's distress, 
the Marine Corps sent him to Fallujah. He tells us that he didn't want 
to go there. He speaks of the situation being horrible and of his life 
being in constant danger. But he couldn't say: "No thanks. I'd rather 
serve in Guam."  Do you mean to say that you (as 
property of the US armed services) would  do "WHATEVER" your 
superior deemed necessary? That's quite a broad  
statement.Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you 
think of any exceptions?robert luis rabello"The Edge of 
Justice"Adventure for Your 
Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger 
Supercharger Project 
Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel 
mailing 
listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel 
at Journey to 
Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the 
combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  
  

  ___Biofuel mailing 
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  Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the 
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-06 Thread Appal Energy


Greg,

 *The military is just like any other company trying to
 get you to join, in that it is going to push the fun exciting
 stuff, while under emphasizing the bad.

The military does far more than just push the fun exciting stuff... to 
net recruits.


I guess you didn't read the references that were provided previously and 
didn't do any searching beyond them on your own?


So is that high-gloss varnish or semi-gloss that you're using there? And 
are you sure you've got enough ventilation in that room?


Todd Swearingen


Greg Harbican wrote:


No, up till 9/11 most people entered the military for one of two reasons.
 
The first and most popular reason is Education.
They think that it will be an easy way the get an education, without 
having to work hard to get a scholarship or the need for a loan.
 
The second reason, is that they want money for something and they 
currently don't have enough. 
 
I have heard some of their complaints, and almost always it's along 
the lines of  When I signed up almost ___  yrs ago, there wasn't 
any war.I did it because I wanted to get 'an education' or 'the 
education benefit's or 'to get a job and skills for a job when I get 
out', not to kill people or get killed.
 
Many of them think that they are using the military, for their own 
purposes/benefit, but, then when they are told that they can not get 
out when the going gets rough, they cry Not fair!
 
 
The facts are:
 
*The military is just like any other company trying to get you to 
join, in that it is going to push the fun exciting stuff, while under 
emphasizing the bad.
 
*Anyone that thinks they can join the military and be subject to the 
possibility of being killed or having to kill, is living a dream that 
has no connection to reality.
 
*Anyone that thinks that the military can't or will not alter their 
terms of enlistment in a time of crisis is dreaming.
 
*Anyone that does not read the fine print on any contract before 
they sign, is a fool.
 
*All it takes is some checking, to find out what being in the military 
is really like.There are to many people in ( and now out ) of the 
military to say what it was like.
  
Any person, in any job, that think that they can take the good and 
leave the bad, has another think coming.
 
Greg H.
 


- Original Message -
*From:* Michael Redler mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Sent:* Friday, June 03, 2005 12:44
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against
Carol Lang

To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! or
I don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp).
 
Well Larry, if that were true, we would have an increasing number

of self centered objectors instead of conscientious objectors.
Most people who join the military, do so with a belief (faith)
that their commander-in-chief will make the right decisions. When
they don't, it is no exaggeration to look at it as a breach of
contract. You have every right to object to improper use of the
military (that would be YOU, if you are a soldier) due to the fact
that your government did not work with you in good faith.
 
Conscientious objectors are often examples of fearless objectivity

and heroism. They see war during their time as a divisive
instrument of policy and not a mechanism for self defense.
 
Mike


 




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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-06 Thread Michael Redler


"...when they are told that they can not get out when the going gets rough, they cry"Not fair!"
How about...
...when they are told that they can not get out when the president:

1.) abuses the war powers act

2.) provokes attacksto manufacture an excuse for war months before any security council resolution is drafted

3.) Bribes a "coalition of the willing" when most of the free world isn't fooled

4.)Coerces government agencies to manufacture evidence to justify an illegal war

5.) Limits inspectors (mostly chemical weapons inspectors) from entering Iraq and works toward the dismissal of the most vocal analysts reporting that there are noWMD's

and you realize that your purpose in the militaryhas changed from that of defender, to that ofconqueror.

...they cry"Not fair!"
Mike

Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




No, up till 9/11 most people entered the military for one of two reasons.

The first and most popular reason is Education.
They think that it will be an easy way the get an education, without having to work hard to get a scholarship or the need for a loan.

The second reason, is that they want money forsomething and they currently don't haveenough.

I have heard some of their complaints, and almost always it's along the lines of " When I signed up almost ___ yrs ago, there wasn't any war. I did it because I wanted to get'an education'or 'the education benefit's or 'to get a job and skills for a job when I get out', not to kill people or get killed".

Many of themthink that they are using the military, for their own purposes/benefit, but, then when they are told that they can not get out when the going gets rough, they cry"Not fair!"


The facts are:

*The militaryis just like any other company trying to get you to join, in that it is going to push the fun exciting stuff, while under emphasizing the bad.

*Anyone that thinks they can join the military and be subject to the possibility of being killed or having to kill, is living a dream that has no connection to reality.

*Anyone that thinks thatthe military can't or will not alter their terms of enlistment in a time of crisis isdreaming.

*Anyone that does not read the fine print on any contractbefore theysign, is a fool.

*All it takes issome checking, to find out what being in the military is really like. There are to many people in (and now out )of the military to say what it was like.

Any person, in anyjob,that think that they can take the good and leave the bad, has another think coming.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Michael Redler 
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:44
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang



"To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! orI don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp)."

Well Larry, if that were true, we would have an increasing number of "self centered objectors" instead of conscientious objectors. Most people who join the military, do so with a belief (faith) that their commander-in-chief will make the right decisions. When they don't, it is no exaggeration to look at it as a breach of contract. You have every right to object to improper use of the military (that would be YOU, if you are a soldier) due to the fact that your government did not work with you in good faith.

Conscientious objectors are oftenexamples of fearless objectivity and heroism. They seewar during their time asa divisive instrument of policy and not a mechanism for self defense.

Mike
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-06 Thread Keith Addison


Check out the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of Military Justice ).
Then follow that up with Geneva Convention and Hague Convention, and 
that will give you a good idea of what illegal is to the military.


Greg H.


The US military honours the Geneva Convention? When they feel like it maybe...

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVFb=79532
Memorandum on the Geneva Conventions - Center for American Progress
Tossing Aside the Geneva Conventions, Bush Decisions Place U.S. 
Troops in Greater Danger
... 'When you say something down the chain of command like, 'The 
Geneva conventions don't apply,' that sets the stage for the kind of 
chaos that we've seen,' said Rear Admiral John Hutson (ret.), who was 
the Navy Judge Advocate General from 1997 to 2000.


http://talkleft.com/new_archives/008443.html
Bush Flip-Flops on Geneva Convention Protections

http://baltimorechronicle.com/geneva_feb02.shtml
U.S. Violates Geneva Conventions

Keith




- Original Message -
From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Michael Redler
To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 14:22
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Robert,

This IMHO, this is another simplification.

Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any exceptions?

What's illegal?

Mike

robert luis rabello mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael Redler wrote:

 Robert,

 ...he or she becomes the property of the military and the
 commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. 
 Point taken. But I think it's a bit oversimplified.

Is it really? Can an army function without discipline? When the
lieutenant says: We have orders to secure that hilltop and neutralize
enemy resistance, does an enlisted soldier have the right to disagree?

My wife has a young cousin who joined the Marines a few years ago.
Much to his dismay, and his family's distress, the Marine Corps sent
him to Fallujah. He tells us that he didn't want to go there. He
speaks of the situation being horrible and of his life being in
constant danger. But he couldn't say: No thanks. I'd rather serve
in Guam.

 Do you mean to say that you (as property of the US armed services) would
 do WHATEVER your superior deemed necessary? That's quite a broad
 statement.

Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any
exceptions?


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-06 Thread Larry Foran

Greg,
  Well said!

Larry

On 6/6/05, Greg  Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 No, up till 9/11 most people entered the military for one of two reasons. 
   
 The first and most popular reason is Education. 
 They think that it will be an easy way the get an education, without having
 to work hard to get a scholarship or the need for a loan. 
   
 The second reason, is that they want money for something and they currently
 don't have enough.  
   
 I have heard some of their complaints, and almost always it's along the
 lines of  When I signed up almost ___  yrs ago, there wasn't any war.  
  I did it because I wanted to get 'an education' or 'the education benefit's
 or 'to get a job and skills for a job when I get out', not to kill people or
 get killed. 
   
 Many of them think that they are using the military, for their own
 purposes/benefit, but, then when they are told that they can not get out
 when the going gets rough, they cry Not fair! 
   
   
 The facts are: 
   
 *The military is just like any other company trying to get you to join, in
 that it is going to push the fun exciting stuff, while under emphasizing the
 bad. 
   
 *Anyone that thinks they can join the military and be subject to the
 possibility of being killed or having to kill, is living a dream that has no
 connection to reality. 
   
 *Anyone that thinks that the military can't or will not alter their terms of
 enlistment in a time of crisis is dreaming. 
   
 *Anyone that does not read the fine print on any contract before they sign,
 is a fool. 
   
 *All it takes is some checking, to find out what being in the military is
 really like.There are to many people in ( and now out ) of the military
 to say what it was like. 

 Any person, in any job, that think that they can take the good and leave the
 bad, has another think coming. 
   
 Greg H. 
   
  
 - Original Message - 
 From: Michael Redler 
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
 Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:44 
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang 
 
  
  
  
 To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! or
 I don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp). 
   
 Well Larry, if that were true, we would have an increasing number of self
 centered objectors instead of conscientious objectors. Most people who join
 the military, do so with a belief (faith) that their commander-in-chief will
 make the right decisions. When they don't, it is no exaggeration to look at
 it as a breach of contract. You have every right to object to improper use
 of the military (that would be YOU, if you are a soldier) due to the fact
 that your government did not work with you in good faith. 
   
 Conscientious objectors are often examples of fearless objectivity and
 heroism. They see war during their time as a divisive instrument of policy
 and not a mechanism for self defense. 
   
 Mike 
 
   
 ___
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 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-06 Thread Michael Redler

Thanks Greg.

That's kinda what I was getting at.

MikeGreg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Check out the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of Military Justice ).
Then follow that up with Geneva Convention and Hague Convention, and that will give you a good idea of what illegal is to the military.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Michael Redler 
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 14:22
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Robert,

This IMHO, this is another simplification.

Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any exceptions?What's illegal?

Mike
robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Redler wrote: Robert,  "...he or she becomes the property of the military and the commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. " Point taken. But I think it's a bit oversimplified.Is it really? Can an army function without discipline? When the lieutenant says: "We have orders to secure that hilltop and neutralize enemy resistance," does an enlisted soldier have the right to disagree?My wife has a young cousin who joined the Marines a few years ago. Much to his dismay, and his family's distress, the Marine Corps sent him to Fallujah. He tells us that he didn't want to go there. He speaks of the situation being horrible and of his life being in constant danger. But he couldn't say: "No thanks. I'd rather serve in Guam."  Do you mean to say that you (as
 property of the US armed services) would  do "WHATEVER" your superior deemed necessary? That's quite a broad  statement.Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any exceptions?robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-06 Thread capt3d

sorry terry, but no.  you are not addressing my observations in good faith.

As you imply,there are those who would make it in or out.

this is your one comment which is relatively faithful to my meaning.  only, 
it seeks to downplay the fact that *most* who enlist make it through the 
military, hopefully none the worse for wear and usncarred by war.  and i was 
not 
implying that they would make it in civilian society.  i said:

the fact that these individuals enlist is a pretty good indication that, 
were they to remain in civilian life, they would *not* be. . .engaged [in 
selling drugs,robbing and stealing in my neighborhood]

does *not* selling drugs [etc.] constitute 'making it'?  not necessarily.  
they could still be arrested for driving/walking while black; beaten and 
sodomized by the arresting officers; condemned by a justice system which is at 
best 
indifferent, and at worst genocidally racist, to an unduly harsh mandatory 
minimum sentence--a truly horrible fate when you consider that they might be 
beaten or sodomized or killed by their fellow inmates; or the fact, almost 
ignored by our 'liberal media', that abu ghreib-style 'abuse' of prison inmates 
has 
become widespread in american jails; or the fact that now they will not only 
have to survive in our society as a poor minority, but as a poor minority 
ex-con; and above all, in light of all this, when you consider the fact that, 
if 
you're hispanic or, especially, black, the odds are far greater than for any 
other group that you didn't actually commit the crime.  

of cousrse, they might not make it that far, because a trigger-happy 
policeman might just decide to shoot them on the spot.  or they could be killed 
by a 
stray gangbanger's bullet, or in a drive-by because the gangbangers mistook 
them for someone else.  or, they could somehow weave their way through this 
minefield, and live in poverty; as most african-americans and many, if not 
most, 
hispanics/hispanic-americans still do.

there are a fair number of poor whites who also enlist.  while the deck is 
not so severely stacked against them socio-economically, crime and drugs and 
gangs do exist in poor white areas, and the fact remains that most poor whites 
are born into poverty, and will never rise out of poverty.

which, again, is why so many enlist. but what if we offered them an 
alternative?  what if we told them you can join the army/navy/air 
force/marines and 
earn so much per month for so many years, as well as college tuition, and 
perhaps also learn a trade or acquire job skills which will be meaningful in 
civilian life; as well as, of course, risk being killed or maimed, and/or 
psychologically scarred for the rest of your life. . .OR. . .you could earn the 
two 
thirds as much salary and tuition credits, with the same potential for learning 
opportunities, in a heirarchical organization structured similarly to the 
military, all while staying in or near your home area as part of an economical 
development project.  sort of a modern day wpa; an anti-poverty brigade, if 
you 
like.

how many potential enlistees would choose the second alternative?  what if we 
offered only three-quarters as much financial compensation?  how many then?  
or 100% as much?

-chris

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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-06 Thread capt3d

no, greg, the military is not just any other company.  although it is sort 
of like some companies, except that those mercenaries are *extremely* well 
compensated and, at least in practice, pretty much outside the law, military or 
civil.

the armed forces are an organ of the government charged with defending the 
country.  cheap, deceptive sales tactics when asking one to potentially make 
'the ultimate sacrifice' for their country, are nothing short of unethical, 
immoral and unacceptable, if not criminal.

-chris

In a message dated 6/6/05 10:15:42 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 No, up till 9/11 most people entered the military for one of two reasons.


The first and most popular reason is Education.

They think that it will be an easy way the get an education, without having 
to work hard to get a scholarship or the need for a loan.


The second reason, is that they want money for something and they currently 
don't have enough. 


I have heard some of their complaints, and almost always it's along the lines 
of  When I signed up almost ___  yrs ago, there wasn't any war.I did 
it because I wanted to get 'an education' or 'the education benefit's or 'to 
get a job and skills for a job when I get out', not to kill people or get 
killed.


Many of them think that they are using the military, for their own 
purposes/benefit, but, then when they are told that they can not get out when 
the going 
gets rough, they cry Not fair!



The facts are:


*The military is just like any other company trying to get you to join, in 
that it is going to push the fun exciting stuff, while under emphasizing the 
bad.


*Anyone that thinks they can join the military and be subject to the 
possibility of being killed or having to kill, is living a dream that has no 
connection to reality.


*Anyone that thinks that the military can't or will not alter their terms of 
enlistment in a time of crisis is dreaming.


*Anyone that does not read the fine print on any contract before they sign, 
is a fool.


*All it takes is some checking, to find out what being in the military is 
really like.There are to many people in ( and now out ) of the military to 
say what it was like.

  

Any person, in any job, that think that they can take the good and leave the 
bad, has another think coming.


Greg H. 

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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-06 Thread Keith Addison


Hello Chris


sorry terry, but no.  you are not addressing my observations in good faith.

As you imply,there are those who would make it in or out.

this is your one comment which is relatively faithful to my meaning.  only,
it seeks to downplay the fact that *most* who enlist make it through the
military, hopefully none the worse for wear and usncarred by war. 
and i was not

implying that they would make it in civilian society.  i said:

the fact that these individuals enlist is a pretty good indication that,
were they to remain in civilian life, they would *not* be. . .engaged [in
selling drugs,robbing and stealing in my neighborhood]

does *not* selling drugs [etc.] constitute 'making it'?  not necessarily.
they could still be arrested for driving/walking while black; beaten and
sodomized by the arresting officers; condemned by a justice system 
which is at best

indifferent, and at worst genocidally racist, to an unduly harsh mandatory
minimum sentence--a truly horrible fate when you consider that they might be
beaten or sodomized or killed by their fellow inmates; or the fact, almost
ignored by our 'liberal media', that abu ghreib-style 'abuse' of 
prison inmates has

become widespread in american jails; or the fact that now they will not only
have to survive in our society as a poor minority, but as a poor minority
ex-con; and above all, in light of all this, when you consider the 
fact that, if

you're hispanic or, especially, black, the odds are far greater than for any
other group that you didn't actually commit the crime.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8451.htm
Torture Inc. Americas Brutal Prisons
By Deborah Davies
Savaged by dogs, Electrocuted With Cattle Prods, Burned By Toxic 
Chemicals, Does such barbaric abuse inside U.S. jails explain the 
horrors that were committed in Iraq?


They are just some of the victims of wholesale torture taking place 
inside the U.S. prison system that we uncovered during a four-month 
investigation for BBC Channel 4 . It's terrible to watch some of the 
videos and realise that you're not only seeing torture in action but, 
in the most extreme cases, you are witnessing young men dying.]

[more, with video]

http://www.alternet.org/rights/22155/
Castro Strikes a Nerve
By Jill Soffiyah Elijah, AlterNet. Posted June 3, 2005.
''... My more than 20 years as a criminal defense lawyer and 
professor of criminal defense advocacy confirm the widely known 
assessment that every aspect of the criminal justice system is ripe 
for criticism and laden with hypocrisy...


The United States incarcerates more people per capita than any other 
developed nation on earth. The population of the United States 
comprises 5% of the world's population but its incarcerated 
population is equal to more than 25% of the world's prisoners.


According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, based on current 
rates of first incarceration, an estimated 32% of black males will 
enter state or federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 17% 
of Hispanic males and 5.9% of white males. In other words, one third 
of black men can expect to be incarcerated during their life times if 
they live in the United States.


Incarceration in the U.S. is a growing industry. In 2001, an 
estimated 2.7% of adults in the U.S. had served time in prison, up 
from 1.8% in 1991 and 1.3% in 1974.  The BJS reports that as of 
December 31, 2001, there were an estimated 5.6 million adults who had 
ever served time in state or federal prison, including 4.3 million 
former prisoners and 1.3 million adults in prison. 

At every stage of the criminal justice system in the U.S., blacks, 
Latinos, Chicanos and other people of color and the poor are 
disproportionately impacted...


The millions who have had their lives interrupted by the criminal 
justice system know that fairness is usually an illusion discussed 
widely in classrooms but not mentioned in courtrooms. They know it's 
unjust.


See also:

http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read.html?id=3942
Republican senator says US prisons best in the world
WASHINGTON, June 5 (AFP)


of cousrse, they might not make it that far, because a trigger-happy
policeman might just decide to shoot them on the spot.  or they 
could be killed by a

stray gangbanger's bullet, or in a drive-by because the gangbangers mistook
them for someone else.  or, they could somehow weave their way through this
minefield, and live in poverty; as most african-americans and many, 
if not most,

hispanics/hispanic-americans still do.

there are a fair number of poor whites who also enlist.  while the deck is
not so severely stacked against them socio-economically, crime and drugs and
gangs do exist in poor white areas, and the fact remains that most poor whites
are born into poverty, and will never rise out of poverty.

which, again, is why so many enlist. but what if we offered them an
alternative?  what if we told them you can join the army/navy/air 
force/marines and

earn

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-06 Thread capt3d

greetings, keith.

you were right there with the appropriate citations to the subject at hand.  
it's beginning to look like that is as per usual.  i don't know how you do 
it.

In a message dated 6/6/05 10:31:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The share of the nation's income earned by those in this uppermost 
category has more than doubled since 1980, to 7.4 percent in 2002. 
The share of income earned by the rest of the top 10 percent rose far 
less, and the share earned by the bottom 90 percent fell... 

yep.  as u.s. population approaches 300 million, around 8% of national income 
went to fewer than 150,000 individuals.  quantitative proof that, in the 
immortal words of a recent president, the state of our economy is strong.  
clearly our didn't mean all of ours.

Does such barbaric abuse inside U.S. jails explain the 
horrors that were committed in Iraq?

this was beyond a doubt already widespread within our borders since before 
the current conflict.  i'm so glad you cited this source; it's important to 
draw 
this link.

The population of the United States comprises 5% of
the world's population but its incarcerated population is
equal to more than 25% of the world's prisoners.

iirc our comsumption of the world's energy supply is similarly 
disproportionate.  as is our share of greenhouse gas output.  then that 
explains it, because 
it sure takes a lot of resources to deal with all those bad elements. . . .

well, it's back to the regular work routine for me.  maybe i'll have a chance 
to drop in during the week.  otherwise, until the weekend.

best,

-chris
oh, no you DI-in't!
superman

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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-05 Thread capt3d

In a message dated 6/3/05 12:45:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I agree that a military recruiter will paint as rosey a picture of

service as possible, but no one has to volunteer.

sorry, larry, but many, many, many enlisted men sign up because from their 
perspective, at the time they put their name on the dotted line, that was their 
only viable option.  the military is keenly aware that the socio-economic 
realities of our country do most of the recruiting for them (why else do you 
think 
they gave up the draft?).  sure, the recruiter may reel in a few good souls 
who were tipping in the other direction, but for the most part his job is that 
of making sure that those who come to his or her office (who for the most part 
have already made up their minds) fill out the forms properly, and 
acknowledge whatever disclaimers/full disclosure statements the recruiter may 
be 
required to utter.

It is interesting the much of the activism against the Military 
is located. . .w[h]ere discourse and discussion is supposted to
be applauded, but the military which defends those rights are not
allowed to have free expression. . .protesting a member wearing a
Military uniform is dishonorable and violates that individuals right
to free speech.

oh lord.  where does this mind set come from?  do you not see the mental 
short-circuit necessary to accept this thought process?

yes, centers of higher learning champion discourse and debate, the exchange 
of ideas.  and for the military--an institution to which, as has been amply 
discussed in this thread already, free discourse and exchange of ideas is 
anathema--to seek recruits therein is itself an attack on higher learning and 
what it 
represents.

the concept of a civilian nation, a civilian society, was central to our (the 
u.s.) constitution.  civilian, representative government is clearly and 
unmistakably placed in charge of the armed forces.  the military as a culture 
or 
member of society in itself, is in no way recognized.  in fact, implicit to 
this 
formula is that the military has no role, nor right to a voice, in 
society/the civil forum.  therefore, to argue that a person in uniform (in the 
literal 
sense, not figuratively) has a right to free speech, stands on shaky ground if 
you're suggesting that the wearing of the uniform (and in so doing, acting as 
a representative of or spokesman for the military) is itself the speech or a 
central component of it.

furthermore, all this claptrap about defending 'those rights' is no more than 
a political artifact.  in reality, not since the war of 1812 has the u.s. 
been engaged in a conflict where personal liberties could be construed as being 
directly attacked, seeing that britain was trying to take back the colonies 
which had won their independence and, ion the process had taken the ideas of 
personal and political liberties to a new level (not, i should add, that the 
american revolution was exactly about 'those rights').

this isn't to say there weren't other occasions where 'those rights' were 
indirectly threatened, certainly.  but come on, let's be honest.  wwII, for 
example, wasn't really about defending personal liberties, not primarily.  if 
it 
were, the u.s would have gotten involved much sooner.  it was really a war 
against aggression and economic competition (particularly in the pacific 
theatre).  
and it takes a mental contortion of titanic proportions to accept the idea 
that slaughtering thousands and thousands of an indegenous people all the way 
on 
the other side of the globe, as the u.s. did when taking the phillipines from 
spain, or bloodily dismembering a nation, as we are still in the process of 
doing in iraq, constitutes a defense of 'those rights'.

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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-05 Thread Michael Redler




"the military is keenly aware that the socio-economic realities of our country do most of the recruiting for them"

Absolutely!

Although the behavior of many recruitershas beenan embarrassment to the uniform, they are only part of the problem.There is the new draft happening under our noses.Many appropriately call itthe poverty draft.

A significant number(some estimates are as high as 40,000)of America's frontline soldiers are not US citizens. 

"The proportion of blacks in the army was 40%, while in the US population, the number of blacks was a quarter of that"-- MP George GallowayWell, I could only think of three possible reasons why this might be true -- and a couple of them seem pretty ridiculous:

1.) Blacks and hispanics are more patriotic
2.) Blacks and hispanics areeasily persuaded by arecruiter'sslick sales pitch
3.) Blacks and hispanics have fewer options for advancement

Did I miss any?

Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/3/05 12:45:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree that a military recruiter will paint as "rosey" a picture ofservice as possible, but no one has to volunteer.sorry, larry, but many, many, many enlisted men sign up because from their perspective, at the time they put their name on the dotted line, that was their only viable option. the military is keenly aware that the socio-economic realities of our country do most of the recruiting for them (why else do you think they gave up the draft?). sure, the recruiter may reel in a few good souls who were tipping in the other direction, but for the most part his job is that of making sure that those who come to his or her office (who for the most part have already made up their minds) fill out the forms properly, and acknowledge whatever
 disclaimers/full disclosure statements the recruiter may be required to utter.is located. . .w[h]ere discourse and discussion is supposted tobe applauded, but the military which defends those rights are notallowed to have free _expression_. . .protesting a member wearing aMilitary uniform is dishonorable and violates that individuals rightto free speech.oh lord. where does this mind set come from? do you not see the mental short-circuit necessary to accept this thought process?yes, centers of higher learning champion discourse and debate, the exchange of ideas. and for the military--an institution to which, as has been amply discussed in this thread already, free discourse and exchange of ideas is anathema--to seek recruits therein is itself an attack on higher learning and what it represents.the concept of a civilian nation, a civilian
 society, was central to our (the u.s.) constitution. civilian, representative government is clearly and unmistakably placed in charge of the armed forces. the military as a culture or member of society in itself, is in no way recognized. in fact, implicit to this formula is that the military has no role, nor right to a voice, in society/the civil forum. therefore, to argue that a person in uniform (in the literal sense, not figuratively) has a right to free speech, stands on shaky ground if you're suggesting that the wearing of the uniform (and in so doing, acting as a representative of or spokesman for the military) is itself the speech or a central component of it.furthermore, all this claptrap about defending 'those rights' is no more than a political artifact. in reality, not since the war of 1812 has the u.s. been engaged in a conflict where personal liberties could be construed as being directly attacked, seeing that
 britain was trying to take back the colonies which had won their independence and, ion the process had taken the ideas of personal and political liberties to a new level (not, i should add, that the american revolution was exactly about 'those rights').this isn't to say there weren't other occasions where 'those rights' were indirectly threatened, certainly. but come on, let's be honest. wwII, for example, wasn't really about defending personal liberties, not primarily. if it were, the u.s would have gotten involved much sooner. it was really a war against aggression and economic competition (particularly in the pacific theatre). and it takes a mental contortion of titanic proportions to accept the idea that slaughtering thousands and thousands of an indegenous people all the way on the other side of the globe, as the u.s. did when taking the phillipines from spain, or bloodily dismembering a nation, as we are still in the process
 of doing in iraq, constitutes a defense of 'those rights'.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-05 Thread Terry DeSimone

How about it's a good place to get a start in a career field,learn useful skills,be exposed to other people from other backgrounds,get to travel and see places that they would never normally get to see? Opportunity is opportunity no matter where you find it. Dangerous? So is waking up and walking out the door each day. We're all gonna die of something someday,that's just the way it is. I applaud those who go in,even if it's for socio-economic reasons. They could be in your neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing,that would be much easier than making a commitment to improving their lives.
TerryMichael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

"the military is keenly aware that the socio-economic realities of our country do most of the recruiting for them"

Absolutely!

Although the behavior of many recruitershas beenan embarrassment to the uniform, they are only part of the problem.There is the new draft happening under our noses.Many appropriately call itthe poverty draft.

A significant number(some estimates are as high as 40,000)of America's frontline soldiers are not US citizens.

"The proportion of blacks in the army was 40%, while in the US population, the number of blacks was a quarter of that"-- MP George GallowayWell, I could only think of three possible reasons why this might be true -- and a couple of them seem pretty ridiculous:

1.) Blacks and hispanics are more patriotic
2.) Blacks and hispanics areeasily persuaded by arecruiter'sslick sales pitch
3.) Blacks and hispanics have fewer options for advancement

Did I miss any?

Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/3/05 12:45:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree that a military recruiter will paint as "rosey" a picture ofservice as possible, but no one has to volunteer.sorry, larry, but many, many, many enlisted men sign up because from their perspective, at the time they put their name on the dotted line, that was their only viable option. the military is keenly aware that the socio-economic realities of our country do most of the recruiting for them (why else do you think they gave up the draft?). sure, the recruiter may reel in a few good souls who were tipping in the other direction, but for the most part his job is that of making sure that those who come to his or her office (who for the most part have already made up their minds) fill out the forms properly, and acknowledge whatever
disclaimers/full disclosure statements the recruiter may be required to utter.is located. . .w[h]ere discourse and discussion is supposted tobe applauded, but the military which defends those rights are notallowed to have free _expression_. . .protesting a member wearing aMilitary uniform is dishonorable and violates that individuals rightto free speech.oh lord. where does this mind set come from? do you not see the mental short-circuit necessary to accept this thought process?yes, centers of higher learning champion discourse and debate, the exchange of ideas. and for the military--an institution to which, as has been amply discussed in this thread already, free discourse and exchange of ideas is anathema--to seek recruits therein is itself an attack on higher learning and what it represents.the concept of a civilian nation, a civilian
society, was central to our (the u.s.) constitution. civilian, representative government is clearly and unmistakably placed in charge of the armed forces. the military as a culture or member of society in itself, is in no way recognized. in fact, implicit to this formula is that the military has no role, nor right to a voice, in society/the civil forum. therefore, to argue that a person in uniform (in the literal sense, not figuratively) has a right to free speech, stands on shaky ground if you're suggesting that the wearing of the uniform (and in so doing, acting as a representative of or spokesman for the military) is itself the speech or a central component of it.furthermore, all this claptrap about defending 'those rights' is no more than a political artifact. in reality, not since the war of 1812 has the u.s. been engaged in a conflict where personal liberties could be construed as being directly attacked, seeing that
britain was trying to take back the colonies which had won their independence and, ion the process had taken the ideas of personal and political liberties to a new level (not, i should add, that the american revolution was exactly about 'those rights').this isn't to say there weren't other occasions where 'those rights' were indirectly threatened, certainly. but come on, let's be honest. wwII, for example, wasn't really about defending personal liberties, not primarily. if it were, the u.s would have gotten involved much sooner. it was really a war against aggression and economic competition (particularly in the pacific theatre). and it takes a mental contortion of titanic proportions to accept the idea that slaughtering thousands and thousands of an indegenous people all the way on the

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-05 Thread Appal Energy


Terry,

You forgot to include with your military sales pitch/brochure travel to 
exotic places, meet interesting people and then kill them.


And come on. On a per capita basis no more military personel than 
civilians die each day from walking out the front door of their 
domiciles. It's what they walk into shortly thereafter that increases 
their mortality ratio.


If your going to sling red herring and strawmen, at least aim for the 
fireplace where they can both be appropriately toasted.


Todd Swearingen


Terry DeSimone wrote:

How about it's a good place to get a start in a career field,learn 
useful skills,be exposed to other people from other backgrounds,get to 
travel and see places that they would never normally get to see? 
Opportunity is opportunity no matter where you find it. Dangerous? So 
is waking up and walking out the door each day. We're all gonna die of 
something someday,that's just the way it is. I applaud those who go 
in,even if it's for socio-economic reasons. They could be in your 
neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing,that would be much 
easier than making a commitment to improving their lives.

Terry

*/Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

the military is keenly aware that the socio-economic realities of
our country do most of the recruiting for them
 
Absolutely!
 
Although the behavior of many recruiters has been an embarrassment

to the uniform, they are only part of the problem. There is the
new draft happening under our noses. Many appropriately call
it the poverty draft.
 
A significant number (some estimates are as high as 40,000) of

America's frontline soldiers are not US citizens.
 
The proportion of blacks in the army was 40%, while in the US

population, the number of blacks was a quarter of that -- MP
George Galloway

Well, I could only think of three possible reasons why this might
be true -- and a couple of them seem pretty ridiculous:
 
1.) Blacks and hispanics are more patriotic

2.) Blacks and hispanics are easily persuaded by
a recruiter's slick sales pitch
3.) Blacks and hispanics have fewer options for advancement
 
Did I miss any?
 
Mike  


*/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

In a message dated 6/3/05 12:45:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I agree that a military recruiter will paint as rosey a
picture of

service as possible, but no one has to volunteer.

sorry, larry, but many, many, many enlisted men sign up
because from their
perspective, at the time they put their name on the dotted
line, that was their
only viable option. the military is keenly aware that the
socio-economic
realities of our country do most of the recruiting for them
(why else do you think
they gave up the draft?). sure, the recruiter may reel in a
few good souls
who were tipping in the other direction, but for the most part
his job is that
of making sure that those who come to his or her office (who
for the most part
have already made up their minds) fill out the forms properly,
and
acknowledge whatever disclaimers/full disclosure statements
the recruiter may be
required to utter.


is located. . .w[h]ere discourse and discussion is supposted to
be applauded, but the military which defends those rights are not
allowed to have free expression. . .protesting a member wearing a
Military uniform is dishonorable and violates that individuals
right
to free speech.

oh lord. where does this mind set come from? do you not see
the mental
short-circuit necessary to accept this thought process?

yes, centers of higher learning champion discourse and debate,
the exchange
of ideas. and for the military--an institution to which, as
has been amply
discussed in this thread already, free discourse and exchange
of ideas is
anathema--to seek recruits therein is itself an attack on
higher learning and what it
represents.

the concept of a civilian nation, a civilian society, was
central to our (the
u.s.) constitution. civilian, representative government is
clearly and
unmistakably placed in charge of the armed forces. the
military as a culture or
member of society in itself, is in no way recognized. in fact,
implicit to this
formula is that the military has no role, nor right to a
voice, in
society/the civil forum. therefore, to argue that a person in
uniform (in the literal
sense, not figuratively) has a right to free speech, stands on
shaky ground if
you're suggesting that the wearing

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-05 Thread capt3d


In a message dated 6/5/05 5:05:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 They could be in your neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing,that 
would be much easier than making a commitment to improving their lives. 

oh my, terry.  enough with the ad hominim.  the fact that these individuals 
enlist is a pretty good indication that, were they to remain in civilian life, 
they would *not* be so engaged.  which is all the greater shame, for if more 
effort were made to help them help themselves. . . .

-chris

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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-05 Thread Michael Redler

"If your going to sling red herring and strawmen, at least aim for the fireplace where they can both be appropriately toasted." OK -- that was pretty cool Todd.Somebody wrote: "They could be in your neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing,that would be much easier than making a commitment to improving their lives."Let me understand this. If such a large portion of "them" are in the military and "they" would otherwise be "in your neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing" in significant numbers (if I understand you correctly), then we have an army of drug dealers and thieves.Apparently,this immoral minority also likes to torture prisoners when in the right environment. Although,wait a minute, the ones on trial are whitemust be a fluke.

Anyway,the bigots and xenophobes in this group seem to be interested in formulating a final solution to kick "them" out, keep "them" out, or otherwise send "them" away. This reminds me of a little town inGermany called Potsdam where similar discussions took place.

Mike

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/5/05 5:05:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They could be in your neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing,that would be much easier than making a commitment to improving their lives. oh my, terry. enough with the ad hominim. the fact that these individuals enlist is a pretty good indication that, were they to remain in civilian life, they would *not* be so engaged. which is all the greater shame, for if more effort were made to help them help themselves. . . .-chris___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-05 Thread Terry DeSimone

What you say has validity,could go either way. But since this is all hypothetical in that we're not talking about a certain individual,we're both speculating. Many individuals wash out of the military at some point due to drugs or some type of mental instability (not percentage wise,but many). Some join the military because of the $$$ or to further their nefarious ways. I've been in the navy and marine corps and have seen all types. As you imply,there are those who would make it in or out. Enlistment is not a prequalifier of an upstanding individual however.
Regards,
Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/5/05 5:05:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They could be in your neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing,that would be much easier than making a commitment to improving their lives. oh my, terry. enough with the ad hominim. the fact that these individuals enlist is a pretty good indication that, were they to remain in civilian life, they would *not* be so engaged. which is all the greater shame, for if more effort were made to help them help themselves. . . .-chris___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-05 Thread Terry DeSimone

Not exactly sure what you're trying to read into this or where you're trying to take it,but if this is the way you feel,this is the way you feel.
 Regards,
 TerryMichael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



"If your going to sling red herring and strawmen, at least aim for the fireplace where they can both be appropriately toasted." OK -- that was pretty cool Todd.Somebody wrote: "They could be in your neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing,that would be much easier than making a commitment to improving their lives."Let me understand this. If such a large portion of "them" are in the military and "they" would otherwise be "in your neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing" in significant numbers (if I understand you correctly), then we have an army of drug dealers and thieves.Apparently,this immoral minority also likes to torture prisoners when in the right environment. Although,wait a minute, the ones on trial are whitemust be a fluke.

Anyway,the bigots and xenophobes in this group seem to be interested in formulating a final solution to kick "them" out, keep "them" out, or otherwise send "them" away. This reminds me of a little town inGermany called Potsdam where similar discussions took place.

Mike

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/5/05 5:05:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They could be in your neighborhood selling drugs,robbing and stealing,that would be much easier than making a commitment to improving their lives. oh my, terry. enough with the ad hominim. the fact that these individuals enlist is a pretty good indication that, were they to remain in civilian life, they would *not* be so engaged. which is all the greater shame, for if more effort were made to help them help themselves. . . .-chris___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
 archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-04 Thread Keith Addison


Hello Ron


I can see this is going


You think so? I don't. I think you can see where you aren't going.


no where so I will leave it with one final bit of food for thought


As such... Some food for thought might be that you haven't responded 
to anything in the message you're responding to, simply dismissing it 
out of hand because you find it unappetising. You don't want your 
views challenged because you're unable to defend them. Sorry about 
your dyspepsia, but we've had more than enough people trying such 
transparent tactics here over the years for everyone to recognise 
them for what they are, except perhaps for you. They sure aren't 
going to put your blinkers on just for your sake.


. If it were not for the US defense budget and over a million 
American lives, there would only be 2 languages spoken it all of 
Europe, German and Russian. And all of Asia would be speaking 
Japanese. Oh How soon they forget. Nuff said.


LOL! Hm. I commend you to the list archives young man, as previous 
discussions (and debunkings akin to sheer rout) of just this myth 
have been there longer than you've been here. Now go on, tell me I 
have no gratitude! :-)


Keith




Keith Addison wrote:

Well, well...

I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but 
I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.


This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us 
(that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who 
demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service 
will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he 
ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very opposite 
of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even 
mean he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as 
easily mean he's incapable of seeing it straight.


Where else in the world is military service placed on such a 
pedestal of pride? Where else is the military held in such high 
esteem? I don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities 
that come to mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe 
South Korea to an extent, because of North Korea - but at least 
they have a real enemy (and the last thing they want is to fight it 
out). Food for thought, no?


One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get 
such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?) 
Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15 
years ago. Grotesque?



... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08

Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets 
of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1


Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31

Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36



Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?

Look at these figures:

Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between 
US $5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth 
bomber.


Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
- $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United States alone.

Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion 
plus some annual costs;

- $11 billion is spent annually on ice cream in Europe.

Reproductive health services for all women would cost $12 billion a year;
- $12 billion a year is spent on perfumes in Europe and the United States.

Basic health care and nutrition would cost $13 billion;
- $17 billion a year is spent on pet food in Europe and the United States.

$35 billion is spent on business entertainment in Japan;
$50 billion on cigarettes in Europe;
$105 billion on alcoholic drinks in Europe;
$400 billion on narcotic drugs around the world; and
$780 billion on the world's militaries.

-- From: Globalization Facts and Figures
http://learningpartnership.org/facts/global.phtml

It's not something to be admired. Yet Americans are so proud of it.

A majority of Americans thinks the US spends 24% of its budget on 
foreign aid instead of the actual figure, less than 1% - and most 
of that is tied to direct US benefit. And then there's this:


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article.htm
$1 trillion missing : Military waste under fire
05/18/05 San Francisco Chronicle
(Among other things, they LOST 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36 
Javelin missile command launch-units.)


Grotesque and bizarre.

I'm not bashing the US, I'm not even trying to stop the 
discussion - please, go ahead, thrash it out, no problem. But 
please be aware of how peculiarly American it is. Pondering that a 
bit might add some perspective which might otherwise be lacking.


A couple of other things to ponder. Vietnam vets, or some of them 
anyway, seem to have a rather different view of military service. 
I'm reminded of a previous discussion here involving Vietnam vets 
when one of them boasted about the

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-04 Thread dwoodard

That was then. This is now, when those in control of the United States
are using the methods and following the principles of Hitler and Stalin,
though on a smaller scale so far.

Remember that the United States was dragged into World War II by the
Japanese, after having been given the jet engine and the key to modern
radar (the cavity magnetron) by Britain. The development of the atom bomb
in the U.S. was possible because foreign scientists and foreign
governments had confidence in the good sense of the American government
and people. Oppressed people of other countries looked on the United
States as a haven of law, order and safety. No one trusts the United
States any more. Nowadays oppressed foreigners feel safer in Europe.
In the United States they are at the mercy of the secret police.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, ron wrote:

 I can see this is going no where so I will leave it with one final bit
 of food for thought

 . If it were not for the US defense budget and over a million American
 lives, there would only be 2 languages spoken it all of Europe, German
 and Russian. And all of Asia would be speaking Japanese. Oh How soon
 they forget. Nuff said.

[snip]

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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-04 Thread brian king

Hi All,
Hum -- long lines at the ballot box, people turned away, no accountability... 
the UN should observe US elections.
Hum -- family farms annexed by the city, fining the family $1000/day for having 
livestock, charging the family for the demolition of the home and barn.  what 
happen to majority rule with minority rights?  I should mention the owner of 
the farm was a combat vet.
Hum -- why is it that I can not get news by listening to the news?  why is it 
that I get more information about the US from BBC the NBC or CBS?  Is that 
because in order to have a working democracy 51% have to be able to make an 
informed vote.
Why is it that the Republicans in the US push democracy on the rest of the 
world when the US is truly a republic.
-

I have to get some sleep
brian

Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Jun 3, 2005 1:29 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Hello Larry

Keith,
  I knew, from previous veiwing on this list, that I would definetly
be in the minority.

We are all in the minority, we are all in the majority too.

However, discussion and sharing opinions is the
best part of living in any democracy.

Yes... it's the essence of what we're all doing here. But you could 
have left out the last three words. Here on the Internet, it doesn't 
much matter where you live or under what sort of regime.

How else would we ever get new
ideas, solutions.

How else indeed.

  I guess it is just the Red State in me,

I'm sorry Larry, I don't know what that means.

but I am proud of the US
and its existing positions within the world community.

But the world community rejects these positions by a truly massive, 
unprecedented, majority (as do very many Americans). Yet you talk of 
democracy. It is contradictory. Not much sharing to be done if you're 
the only one in step, and insist on it, at everyone else's expense.

I have
experienced life in other countries and found some to be very
enjoyable, others however were very repressive.

Not to doubt or to disparage, but it depends how you did it. Were you 
there on your terms or theirs? There are people who say that, having 
lived in the local Hilton, corporate executives who say that but 
they've lived a life entirely buffered from the local conditions and 
experienced essentially nothing. And others who just muck in at 
street level with everyone else, live in an ordinary neighbourhood, 
get an ordinary job on local conditions. They've all experienced life 
in other countries - or have they?

There are so many Americans now who find the US very repressive. They 
liken it to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, yet I don't think they love 
their country any less than you do. Some of them write to me, they're 
anguished about it. There are quite a few of them here. Discussing 
and sharing opinions means accepting this diversity, IMHO, even 
relishing it.

  I do enjoy the discussion an look forward to more and others.

Good, and most welcome. All views are welcome, the more diverse the 
better. I guess the only view that isn't welcome is a refusal to 
accept those of others when they differ. That is truly sterile, I'm 
sure you'll agree.

Best wishes

Keith


Larry

On 6/3/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Well, well...
 
  I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but
  I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.
 
  This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us
  (that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who
  demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service
  will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he
  ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very opposite
  of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean
  he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean
  he's incapable of seeing it straight.
 
  Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal
  of pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I
  don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to
  mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an
  extent, because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy
  (and the last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought,
  no?
 
  One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get
  such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?)
  Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15
  years ago. Grotesque?
 
  ... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08
  
  Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of
  Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1
  
  Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31
  
  Percentage of U.S. share of total global military

Re[2]: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-04 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Ron,

Turn your question around on yourself brother.  Let's say you have all
the  military  experience  in the world but you are content to believe
the  hogwash  dumped  into  your  consciousness  by a blatantly biased
government  working  hand-in-hand with a blatantly biased big business
community and then you, without checking to see whether or not you are
getting  the  truth,  all  the truth not just the parts which make one
thing look like another, and you go out and act on that information as
if it were from the mouth of GOD, and that is what a good many people,
particularly  those in the military, are doing then how does that make
it  any  better  or different to those who believe a blatantly biased
anti military press?

The  press is mainly just a dis-information service for the government
in  most  things.   Did you ever wonder why some of the press might be
anti  military?   Have  you  noticed  that  in  My  Lai it was a lowly
lieutenant  who  bit  the  bullet?   Did  you  notice that it is a few
enlisted  and  a female reserve general who bent over for the military
while  those  in  actual  control who dictated the actions are merrily
whistling  on  their  way?   Do you understand that in actual fact you
have  to carry out an unlawful act and report it after the fact?  That
isn't the way it is written but that is how it works.

Are  you  aware  that Richard Clarke, Colin Powell's intel chief, told
Powell  FOUR  MONTHS  before his UN presentation that not only had the
intel  not  shown  the info Powell was going to give to be true it had
shown  it to be false? Are you aware that Lt. Col. Kwaitkowski who was
an  intel  analyst  in  the Near East South Asia section of the Middle
East  Policy  Directorate  of  the  Pentagon  reports  that  political
appointees  with  political agendas were installed in the Pentagon and
that  all  intelligence was run through them to the president and that
bits  and  pieces  of  the  intel were  woven  together  to  support a
preconceived and false conclusion?

Todd  does his homework brother.  If the first hand experience you are
speaking  of is sighting down a barrel and pulling the trigger on some
poor  bastard  you don't even know then he doesn't need it and neither
does  anyone  else.   What they don't tell you when you enlist is that
when  that happens you have to live with yourself for the rest of your
life with the knowledge of what you have done and sooner or later that
will  come  back  and  bite  you in the ass.  You can take that to the
bank.   I'm living with that 40 years later.  My uncle lived with that
from  the  first world war on.  My father from the second world war on
and my cousin from Korea on.  And these poor kids in Iraq are going to
bring  that back home with them and carry that in their hearts for the
rest  of  their  lives.   Thank  God  Todd doesn't have any first hand
experience.   It  is  unfortunate  that so many of us do and will.  My
kids  won't.   They  may die for their country but they won't kill for
it.  When people talk about rendering unto Caesar they should remember
that  Caesar  may  have given them a place to live but not their lives
and  Caesar  has  no  right to force one to render someone else's life
unto him.

Happy Happy,

Gustl

Saturday, 04 June, 2005, 05:01:04, you wrote:

r So what you are saying is, you have NO first hand experience. That you 
r are content to spread second hand info spewed out by a  blatantly
r biased anti military press. And bases on NO first hand info you are 
r content to accept all the flotsam they give you and pass it along as if 
r it were from the mouth of GOD. Does that about sum it up?
r Ron

r Appal Energy wrote:
 Ron,
 
 Why would you find it necessary to try and delve into personal 
 exeriences when the public record and the dis-service to America is 
 blatantly and patently apparent?
-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-04 Thread Appal Energy

It goes nowhere Ron, because you take it nowhere. By all appearances, or 
at least in this instance, you seem to be the type of person who would 
boil the kettle dry and still think and try to persuade others that 
what's at the bottom of the pot is still tea.


There's a far greater bit to life's picture than what you narrowly present.

Normally when people work on a jigsaw puzzle, their disappointment comes 
when they find the last piece to be missing. You, on the other hand, 
appear to be more like the last piece in search of the rest of the puzzle.


That should concern not only you, but the rest of the world.

Todd Swearingen

ron wrote:

I can see this is going no where so I will leave it with one final bit 
of food for thought


. If it were not for the US defense budget and over a million American 
lives, there would only be 2 languages spoken it all of Europe, German 
and Russian. And all of Asia would be speaking Japanese. Oh How soon 
they forget. Nuff said.


Keith Addison wrote:


Well, well...

I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but 
I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.


This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us 
(that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who 
demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service 
will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he 
ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very opposite 
of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean 
he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean 
he's incapable of seeing it straight.


Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal 
of pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I 
don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to 
mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an 
extent, because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy 
(and the last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought, no?


One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get 
such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?) 
Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15 
years ago. Grotesque?



... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08

Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of 
Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1


Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31

Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36




Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?

Look at these figures:

Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between US 
$5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth bomber.


Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
- $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United States alone.

Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion 
plus some annual costs;

- $11 billion is spent annually on ice cream in Europe.

Reproductive health services for all women would cost $12 billion a 
year;
- $12 billion a year is spent on perfumes in Europe and the United 
States.


Basic health care and nutrition would cost $13 billion;
- $17 billion a year is spent on pet food in Europe and the United 
States.


$35 billion is spent on business entertainment in Japan;
$50 billion on cigarettes in Europe;
$105 billion on alcoholic drinks in Europe;
$400 billion on narcotic drugs around the world; and
$780 billion on the world's militaries.

-- From: Globalization Facts and Figures
http://learningpartnership.org/facts/global.phtml

It's not something to be admired. Yet Americans are so proud of it.

A majority of Americans thinks the US spends 24% of its budget on 
foreign aid instead of the actual figure, less than 1% - and most of 
that is tied to direct US benefit. And then there's this:


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article.htm
$1 trillion missing : Military waste under fire
05/18/05 San Francisco Chronicle
(Among other things, they LOST 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36 Javelin 
missile command launch-units.)


Grotesque and bizarre.

I'm not bashing the US, I'm not even trying to stop the discussion 
- please, go ahead, thrash it out, no problem. But please be aware of 
how peculiarly American it is. Pondering that a bit might add some 
perspective which might otherwise be lacking.


A couple of other things to ponder. Vietnam vets, or some of them 
anyway, seem to have a rather different view of military service. I'm 
reminded of a previous discussion here involving Vietnam vets when 
one of them boasted about the Purple Heart he'd won. Have a look in 
the archives if you like.


Why are benefits for soldiers' families being cut, and those for 
disabled soldiers too, IIRC, even as their numbers are

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-04 Thread Michael Redler

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, ron wrote:"If it were not for the US defense budget and over a million American lives, there would only be 2 languages spoken it all of Europe, German and Russian."

Ron! Hello! What language does the entire world feel pressured to learn today. What cultures are being effected by (injected with)American culture. Every time I visit my Mother'schildhood home city of Bern Switzerland, I see wonderfully preserved 700+ year oldarchitecture...right next to a McDonald's.

Our "army" takes many forms and economic pressure is oftenas effective aspolitical or military pressure when it comes to building material wealth and power. Today, "We" encroach on other countries (militarily, politically and economically) as if it's our God-given right.

Mike[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That was then. This is now, when those in control of the United Statesare using the methods and following the principles of Hitler and Stalin,though on a smaller scale so far.Remember that the United States was dragged into World War II by theJapanese, after having been given the jet engine and the key to modernradar (the cavity magnetron) by Britain. The development of the atom bombin the U.S. was possible because foreign scientists and foreigngovernments had confidence in the good sense of the American governmentand people. Oppressed people of other countries looked on the UnitedStates as a haven of law, order and safety. No one trusts the UnitedStates any more. Nowadays oppressed foreigners feel safer in Europe.In the United States they are at the mercy of the secret police.Doug WoodardSt. Catharines, Ontario,
CanadaOn Sat, 4 Jun 2005, ron wrote: I can see this is going no where so I will leave it with one final bit of food for thought . If it were not for the US defense budget and over a million American lives, there would only be 2 languages spoken it all of Europe, German and Russian. And all of Asia would be speaking Japanese. Oh How soon they forget. Nuff said.[snip]___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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RE: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-04 Thread dermot

 Of ron
Sent: 04 June 2005 10:13
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

I can see this is going no where so I will leave it with one final bit
of food for thought

. If it were not for the US defense budget and over a million American
lives, there would only be 2 languages spoken it all of Europe, German
and Russian. And all of Asia would be speaking Japanese. Oh How soon
they forget. Nuff said.

Keith Addison wrote:
 Well, well...

 I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but I'm
 undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.

 This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us (that
 is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who demands
 respect for his views on the basis of his military service will not get
 that respect from the majority of list members, and he ought to be aware
 of that. From some he might get the very opposite of respect. For me,
 it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean he necessarily knows
 better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean he's incapable of
 seeing it straight.

 Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal of
 pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I don't wish
 to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to mind are
 perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an extent,
 because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy (and the
 last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought, no?

 One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get such
 a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?) Especially
 of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15 years ago.
Grotesque?

 ... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08

 Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of
 Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1

 Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31

 Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36

 Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?

 Look at these figures:

 Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between US
 $5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth bomber.

 Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
 - $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United States alone.

 Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion plus
 some annual costs;
 - $11 billion is spent annually on ice cream in Europe.

 Reproductive health services for all women would cost $12 billion a year;
 - $12 billion a year is spent on perfumes in Europe and the United States.

 Basic health care and nutrition would cost $13 billion;
 - $17 billion a year is spent on pet food in Europe and the United States.

 $35 billion is spent on business entertainment in Japan;
 $50 billion on cigarettes in Europe;
 $105 billion on alcoholic drinks in Europe;
 $400 billion on narcotic drugs around the world; and
 $780 billion on the world's militaries.

 -- From: Globalization Facts and Figures
 http://learningpartnership.org/facts/global.phtml

 It's not something to be admired. Yet Americans are so proud of it.

 A majority of Americans thinks the US spends 24% of its budget on
 foreign aid instead of the actual figure, less than 1% - and most of
 that is tied to direct US benefit. And then there's this:

 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article.htm
 $1 trillion missing : Military waste under fire
 05/18/05 San Francisco Chronicle
 (Among other things, they LOST 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36 Javelin
 missile command launch-units.)

 Grotesque and bizarre.

 I'm not bashing the US, I'm not even trying to stop the discussion -
 please, go ahead, thrash it out, no problem. But please be aware of how
 peculiarly American it is. Pondering that a bit might add some
 perspective which might otherwise be lacking.

 A couple of other things to ponder. Vietnam vets, or some of them
 anyway, seem to have a rather different view of military service. I'm
 reminded of a previous discussion here involving Vietnam vets when one
 of them boasted about the Purple Heart he'd won. Have a look in the
 archives if you like.

 Why are benefits for soldiers' families being cut, and those for
 disabled soldiers too, IIRC, even as their numbers are soaring? Does the
 government they serve accord them the same respect their fellow
 Americans do? Are they perhaps just dispensable cannon-fodder, to be
 cashed in for a few votes or for the sake of a suspect ideology or
 perhaps for Haliburton's bottom line? Is all this respect perhaps making
 such things a lot easier than they should be? Is it misplaced? Is the
 military and military service a false sacred cow? How many US lawmakers
 have sons or daughters serving with the military in Iraq? One, wasn't

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Mike,
  I agree that anyone should be allowed to PEACEFULLY protest, but I
find it disturbing that individuals would protest military recruiters
on college campuses(sp).  I am retired military and feel a strong bond
with our military.
  Feel free to protest the administrations positions/policies, but
protesting military recruitment is dishonoring those who place their
lives on the line in defence of the freedoms  we enjoy each day. 
Military personnel are following the orders of elected civilian
officials.  Military personnel do not have the latitude to dissent
(unless those orders are unlawful).
  
  If students, teacher, or other professionals want to protest the
government, then protest against the government, not the Military
which is following the orders of the Government which was elected by
those students, teachers, and/or professionals.

Larry

On 6/2/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 
 Every once in a while, there is some good news about those who struggle
 against the current administration and their policies. Since we touch on the
 crisis in this forum, I thought some of you might be a little encouraged by
 this small victory. 
 
 Mike
 _ 
 
 DISTRICT ATTORNEY DROPS CHARGES AGAINST THE CITY FOUR 
 CITY COLLEGE STAFF MEMBER TO DEFEND HERSELF IN STEP II HEARING 
 
 At a peaceful protest against military recruitment on the City College of
 New York (CCNY) campus on March 9, 2005, campus security arrested three
 students and a staff member, and beat two of the students, and the college
 President, Gregory Williams, suspended the protesters without any
 investigation or hearing. Williams broadcast a statement claiming that all
 were guilty and that the College wouldn't tolerate violence. But after a
 month's suspension, all four returned to the College when the charges were
 dropped. On May 19, the District Attorney (DA) moved to dismiss the charges
 within 6 month's time through an Adjournment in Contemplation of Dismissal
 (ACD). 
 
 Clearly, there was no evidence to try the four. The massive outpouring of
 support for the City Four and the outrage at City College's attempt to
 stifle dissent has helped return the four to their rightful place in the
 College community, where they will continue to organize against military
 recruitment on campus. 
 
 Carol Lang, the Theater Department's secretary, still faces disciplinary
 charges at a Step II hearing at 10 AM on Thursday, June 2, at the
 University's Central Office, 535 E. 80th St. (at York Avenue). A strong show
 of support for Carol is important to remind CCNY that the charges against
 her are unfounded and that she is entitled to receive back pay for days she
 was wrongfully forced to miss work. Lang should not lose pay or be punished
 for charges that, according to the DA, have no merit. 
 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 
 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 
 Search the full Biofuel list archives (46,000 messages):
 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
 
 Search the Biofuels-biz list archives:
 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/
 
 
 


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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Hi Larry,

I'm sorry if I offended you. I have a lot of respect for our military. I'm careful not to forget that it is their duty as professional soldiers to performtasksgiven to them by their commander-in-chief with the utmost professionalism. I also understand the dilemma created when/if the commander-in-chief assigns tasks that are ethically questionable (put politely). Most of the protesters feel the same way. I know this because I've participated in these demonstrations at local campuses.

It is not an attack on the men and women in uniform. It couldn't be, since so many of us have friends and relatives who are serving.

As a former soldier, you might appreciate the fact thatactivists willdo their best to organize and use whatever peaceful means necessary to gain a tactical advantage. That said, the demonstrationsare meantto do two things (in my experience). First,it follows the logic that if people aren't willing to fight in a war they don't believe in, they shouldn't. The resulting lack of personnel raises the stakes and puts pressure on the government to withdraw -- and yes, most of the protesters I've met are already prepared for a political fight against adraft. Second, it is meant to raise awareness of a double standard. Federal funding to colleges and universities require strict adherence to anti-discrimination laws. This is a direct contradiction to the military's"don't ask, don't tell" policy. Many colleges and universities have already fought and won in court to keep recruiters off campus specifically for this reason.

With all due respect, Inever let myself forget the lifetime ofphysical and emotionalsuffering a soldier endures long after the war is over.War is said to be a "necessary evil". If that is true, it is my ambition to do what I can to make sure that when we are at war, EVERY POSSIBLE AVENUE to avoid it has been explored.

Peace,

Mike
Larry Foran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Mike,I agree that anyone should be allowed to PEACEFULLY protest, but Ifind it disturbing that individuals would protest military recruiterson college campuses(sp). I am retired military and feel a strong bondwith our military.Feel free to protest the administrations positions/policies, butprotesting military recruitment is dishonoring those who place theirlives on the line in defence of the freedoms we enjoy each day. Military personnel are following the orders of "elected" civilianofficials. Military personnel do not have the latitude to dissent(unless those orders are unlawful).If students, teacher, or other professionals want to protest thegovernment, then protest against the government, not the Militarywhich is following the orders of the Government which was elected bythose students, teachers, and/or
professionals.LarryOn 6/2/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Every once in a while, there is some good news about those who struggle against the current administration and their policies. Since we touch on the crisis in this forum, I thought some of you might be a little encouraged by this small victory. Mike _ DISTRICT ATTORNEY DROPS CHARGES AGAINST THE "CITY FOUR" CITY COLLEGE STAFF MEMBER TO DEFEND HERSELF IN STEP II HEARING At a peaceful protest against military recruitment on the City College of New York (CCNY) campus on March 9, 2005, campus security arrested three students and a staff member, and beat two of the students, and the college President, Gregory Williams, suspended the protesters without any investigation or hearing. Williams broadcast a statement
claiming that all were guilty and that the College wouldn't tolerate "violence." But after a month's suspension, all four returned to the College when the charges were dropped. On May 19, the District Attorney (DA) moved to dismiss the charges within 6 month's time through an Adjournment in Contemplation of Dismissal (ACD). Clearly, there was no evidence to try the four. The massive outpouring of support for the "City Four" and the outrage at City College's attempt to stifle dissent has helped return the four to their rightful place in the College community, where they will continue to organize against military recruitment on campus. Carol Lang, the Theater Department's secretary, still faces disciplinary charges at a Step II hearing at 10 AM on Thursday, June 2, at the University's Central Office, 535 E. 80th St. (at York Avenue). A strong show of
support for Carol is important to remind CCNY that the charges against her are unfounded and that she is entitled to receive back pay for days she was wrongfully forced to miss work. Lang should not lose pay or be punished for charges that, according to the DA, have no merit. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the full

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Larry,

Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are 
the policy makers.


All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating 
practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative 
mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a 
theoretically free society.


Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation, 
they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of 
any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a 
nation's citizenry.


Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not 
under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).


Todd Swearingen


Mike,
 I agree that anyone should be allowed to PEACEFULLY protest, but I
find it disturbing that individuals would protest military recruiters
on college campuses(sp).  I am retired military and feel a strong bond
with our military.
 Feel free to protest the administrations positions/policies, but
protesting military recruitment is dishonoring those who place their
lives on the line in defence of the freedoms  we enjoy each day. 
Military personnel are following the orders of elected civilian

officials.  Military personnel do not have the latitude to dissent
(unless those orders are unlawful).
 
 If students, teacher, or other professionals want to protest the

government, then protest against the government, not the Military
which is following the orders of the Government which was elected by
those students, teachers, and/or professionals.

Larry

On 6/2/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 




Every once in a while, there is some good news about those who struggle
against the current administration and their policies. Since we touch on the
crisis in this forum, I thought some of you might be a little encouraged by
this small victory. 


Mike
_ 

DISTRICT ATTORNEY DROPS CHARGES AGAINST THE CITY FOUR 
CITY COLLEGE STAFF MEMBER TO DEFEND HERSELF IN STEP II HEARING 


At a peaceful protest against military recruitment on the City College of
New York (CCNY) campus on March 9, 2005, campus security arrested three
students and a staff member, and beat two of the students, and the college
President, Gregory Williams, suspended the protesters without any
investigation or hearing. Williams broadcast a statement claiming that all
were guilty and that the College wouldn't tolerate violence. But after a
month's suspension, all four returned to the College when the charges were
dropped. On May 19, the District Attorney (DA) moved to dismiss the charges
within 6 month's time through an Adjournment in Contemplation of Dismissal
(ACD). 


Clearly, there was no evidence to try the four. The massive outpouring of
support for the City Four and the outrage at City College's attempt to
stifle dissent has helped return the four to their rightful place in the
College community, where they will continue to organize against military
recruitment on campus. 


Carol Lang, the Theater Department's secretary, still faces disciplinary
charges at a Step II hearing at 10 AM on Thursday, June 2, at the
University's Central Office, 535 E. 80th St. (at York Avenue). A strong show
of support for Carol is important to remind CCNY that the charges against
her are unfounded and that she is entitled to receive back pay for days she
was wrongfully forced to miss work. Lang should not lose pay or be punished
for charges that, according to the DA, have no merit. 
___

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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-03 Thread Greg Harbican

Todd, 

could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

 Larry,

 Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are 
 the policy makers.

 All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating 
 practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative 
 mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a 
 theoretically free society.

 Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation, 
 they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of 
 any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a 
 nation's citizenry.

 Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not 
 under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).

 Todd Swearingen

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RE: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-03 Thread Tim Ferguson

Hello Larry, Todd and All,

I must say that I agree with Todd on the way recruitment is done. And that I 
also believe that they are fair game to protest as
well. I served six years in the military and I am proud of my service and of 
the men and women with whom I served. But not one of us
had full disclosure of what we were getting into upon enlisting. I was raised 
in a military family and knew what the lifestyle was
about but there were many surprises that awaited me on active duty. I believe 
that the dishonest recruitment is one of the primary
reason for the retention problem in the military. Young men and women get in 
and find that they've been misled and immediately begin
counting the days until they get out. Honest recruitment will produce a better 
quality military with higher retention rates. And if
the we (people of the United States) can elect a government that is less prone 
to war then we won't need such a large military
force.
The money spent on foreign military deployment in peace time is staggering much 
less wartime. The United States' true enemies are
not of mankind but rather greed, excess, waste, inequality, social class and 
etc. These social and economic issue (as well as
others) are the true root of the problem and regretfully our country 
continually addresses the symptoms that are manifested rather
than the root problem. Oh sure we have congressional committees that 
investigate the who, what, where, when and how of issues like
the 9/11 attack. But they forget the why. Why would another nation, country or 
group of people feel the need to attack the United
States. Answer and address the why and many of the symptoms go away.
Just my opinion,

Best wishes,
Tim


Larry,

Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are
the policy makers.

All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating
practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative
mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a
theoretically free society.

Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation,
they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of
any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a
nation's citizenry.

Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not
under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).

Todd Swearingen

Mike,
  I agree that anyone should be allowed to PEACEFULLY protest, but I
find it disturbing that individuals would protest military recruiters
on college campuses(sp).  I am retired military and feel a strong bond
with our military.
  Feel free to protest the administrations positions/policies, but
protesting military recruitment is dishonoring those who place their
lives on the line in defence of the freedoms  we enjoy each day.
Military personnel are following the orders of elected civilian
officials.  Military personnel do not have the latitude to dissent
(unless those orders are unlawful).

  If students, teacher, or other professionals want to protest the
government, then protest against the government, not the Military
which is following the orders of the Government which was elected by
those students, teachers, and/or professionals.

Larry

On 6/2/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Every once in a while, there is some good news about those who struggle
against the current administration and their policies. Since we touch on the
crisis in this forum, I thought some of you might be a little encouraged by
this small victory.

Mike
_

DISTRICT ATTORNEY DROPS CHARGES AGAINST THE CITY FOUR
CITY COLLEGE STAFF MEMBER TO DEFEND HERSELF IN STEP II HEARING

At a peaceful protest against military recruitment on the City College of
New York (CCNY) campus on March 9, 2005, campus security arrested three
students and a staff member, and beat two of the students, and the college
President, Gregory Williams, suspended the protesters without any
investigation or hearing. Williams broadcast a statement claiming that all
were guilty and that the College wouldn't tolerate violence. But after a
month's suspension, all four returned to the College when the charges were
dropped. On May 19, the District Attorney (DA) moved to dismiss the charges
within 6 month's time through an Adjournment in Contemplation of Dismissal
(ACD).

Clearly, there was no evidence to try the four. The massive outpouring of
support for the City Four and the outrage at City College's attempt to
stifle dissent has helped return the four to their rightful place in the
College community, where they will continue to organize against military
recruitment on campus.

Carol Lang, the Theater Department's secretary, still faces disciplinary
charges at a Step II hearing at 10 AM on Thursday, June 2, at the
University's Central Office, 535 E. 80th St. (at York Avenue). A strong show
of support for Carol is important to

RE: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-03 Thread Tim Ferguson

Hello Greg,

I know you addressed this to Todd but I thought I would give you a first hand 
account. As mentioned before I was in the military.

Deceptive - On the day I was out processed I discovered that all those young 
men and women who had served less than three years,
would have to serve a minimum one year in the national guard or reserves. None 
of them were informed of this when they signed up on
the two year enlistment program nor were they told during their 2 years of 
active duty. Then we were all informed that if you did
not serve a minimum of six years that we would all be placed on inactive ready 
reserve and could be called back at any time by the
military should our service be required. Again there was never any mention of 
this in recruitment or while on active duty. Because I
did serve six years, it didn't affect me but it all came as a great surprise 
just the same. Quite Deceptive.

Predatory - I was recruited from High School. The military is composed mostly 
of 18 - 24 year old men and women. And knowing that
many young 18 year old boys and girls lack life experiences to make the most 
informed decisions (especially when deceptive means are
employed) then I would consider that predatory.

Intimidating - Well, I don't see that I was intimidating except for the 
mountain of legalese and paperwork that was involved in my
signing the dotted line.

Maybe Todd can elaborate more eloquently but this was my experience.

Best wishes,
Tim




Todd,

could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ?

Greg H.


- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


 Larry,

 Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are
 the policy makers.

 All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating
 practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative
 mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a
 theoretically free society.

 Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation,
 they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of
 any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a
 nation's citizenry.

 Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not
 under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).

 Todd Swearingen




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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Mike,
  I understand your position but I must still disagree with the method
being employed to reach the goal.

Todd,
  I must agressively disagree with your perception.  As someone who
has been there gone through the enlistment process and served for 21
years.  I know what goes on inside.

  I agree that a military recruiter will paint as rosey a picture of
service as possible, but no one has to volunteer.  No one is holding a
gun to your head and forcing you to enlist/accept a commision.  It is
interesting the much of the activism against the Military is located
at Institutions of Higher Learning were discourse and discussion is
supposted to be applauded, but the military which defends those rights
are not allowed to have free expression.

  I am sure that every job/position/employment you accepted was void
of manipulation.  The only difference would be that you could simply
leave.

  To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! or
I don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp).

  Protest the Government, Protest its policies, Work through your
elected officials, but protesting a member wearing a Military uniform
is dishonorable and violates that individuals right to free speech.

Larry

On 6/3/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Larry,
 
 Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are
 the policy makers.
 
 All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating
 practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative
 mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a
 theoretically free society.
 
 Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation,
 they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of
 any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a
 nation's citizenry.
 
 Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not
 under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).
 
 Todd Swearingen
 
 Mike,
   I agree that anyone should be allowed to PEACEFULLY protest, but I
 find it disturbing that individuals would protest military recruiters
 on college campuses(sp).  I am retired military and feel a strong bond
 with our military.
   Feel free to protest the administrations positions/policies, but
 protesting military recruitment is dishonoring those who place their
 lives on the line in defence of the freedoms  we enjoy each day.
 Military personnel are following the orders of elected civilian
 officials.  Military personnel do not have the latitude to dissent
 (unless those orders are unlawful).
 
   If students, teacher, or other professionals want to protest the
 government, then protest against the government, not the Military
 which is following the orders of the Government which was elected by
 those students, teachers, and/or professionals.
 
 Larry
 
 On 6/2/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
 
 Every once in a while, there is some good news about those who struggle
 against the current administration and their policies. Since we touch on the
 crisis in this forum, I thought some of you might be a little encouraged by
 this small victory.
 
 Mike
 _
 
 DISTRICT ATTORNEY DROPS CHARGES AGAINST THE CITY FOUR
 CITY COLLEGE STAFF MEMBER TO DEFEND HERSELF IN STEP II HEARING
 
 At a peaceful protest against military recruitment on the City College of
 New York (CCNY) campus on March 9, 2005, campus security arrested three
 students and a staff member, and beat two of the students, and the college
 President, Gregory Williams, suspended the protesters without any
 investigation or hearing. Williams broadcast a statement claiming that all
 were guilty and that the College wouldn't tolerate violence. But after a
 month's suspension, all four returned to the College when the charges were
 dropped. On May 19, the District Attorney (DA) moved to dismiss the charges
 within 6 month's time through an Adjournment in Contemplation of Dismissal
 (ACD).
 
 Clearly, there was no evidence to try the four. The massive outpouring of
 support for the City Four and the outrage at City College's attempt to
 stifle dissent has helped return the four to their rightful place in the
 College community, where they will continue to organize against military
 recruitment on campus.
 
 Carol Lang, the Theater Department's secretary, still faces disciplinary
 charges at a Step II hearing at 10 AM on Thursday, June 2, at the
 University's Central Office, 535 E. 80th St. (at York Avenue). A strong show
 of support for Carol is important to remind CCNY that the charges against
 her are unfounded and that she is entitled to receive back pay for days she
 was wrongfully forced to miss work. Lang should not lose pay or be punished
 for charges that, according to the DA, have no merit.
 ___
 Biofuel mailing list

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

I too am interested in hearing about it. And I would like to here what 
the recruiters did to you that was so bad.


Greg Harbican wrote:
Todd, 


could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang




Larry,

Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are 
the policy makers.


All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating 
practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative 
mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a 
theoretically free society.


Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation, 
they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of 
any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a 
nation's citizenry.


Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not 
under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).


Todd Swearingen






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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Greg,

 could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating?

Are you seeking dictionary definitions or a contextual one relative to 
recruiting tactics?


You've never been present on a college campus with a ROTC contingent or 
had a family member who once aspired to be a Marine recruiter? Both are 
quite memorable experiences.


Did you miss the paltry one day stand-down for Army recruiters on May 20 
this year (only two weeks ago) to re-evaluate their recruiting 
practices? The liberal press boiled with stories on that one for a few 
days. Not that anything's changed now that they've moved on.


Based upon your personal military experience(s) and opinions relative to 
most things military as you've expressed them on-list, I'm more more 
inclined to let you take a look at other sources beyond my own 
disposition or experience(s) on the matter.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4648540

http://www.polytechnic.org/faculty/gfeldmeth/recruiter.html

And that's just a few of the recent documented cases.

And then there's always the re-up tactics

http://ventura.fordean.org/ventura/blog/2004/09/new-army-recruiting-tactics-revealed.html

Surely you're not ready to go round-robin on this one are you Greg? Many 
of the practices of recruitment are not only legend, but vividly and 
insultingly real.


Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with someone joining any 
branch of service. The only problem I have is with those who manipulate 
others. About the only tactic that military recruiters haven't tried (at 
least physically, to my knowledge) is the impressment of citizens into 
service. But that doesn't mean that impressment is not a tactic at 
levels other than physical (see the re-up link above).


Todd Swearingen


Greg Harbican wrote:

Todd, 


could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


 


Larry,

Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are 
the policy makers.


All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating 
practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative 
mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a 
theoretically free society.


Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation, 
they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of 
any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a 
nation's citizenry.


Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not 
under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).


Todd Swearingen

   





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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Larry,

I must agressively disagree with your perception. As someone who
has been there gone through the enlistment process and served for 21
years. I know what goes on inside.

That's a ratio of understanding approaching what, Larry? 1 to
???,???,. One good experience does not an all encompassing truth make.

It is interesting the much of the activism against
the Military is located at Institutions of Higher
Learning were discourse and discussion is
supposted to be applauded, but the military which
defends those rights are not allowed to have free
expression

It's equally interesting that one finds ROTC offices at the same institutions. And
there's a bit of a disconnect with the rest. It's not the military which defends the
rights afforded by a constitution - it's Americans (and on the cusp
Americans). You make it sound as if the two are completely separate. And hey, in this
supposedly free society, there's virtually nothing preventing ROTC recruits or recruiters
from expressing themselves and protesting whatever they wish. Free and unmitigated
deception on the other hand? That's all together another matter.

I am sure that every job/position/employment you accepted was void
of manipulation. The only difference would be that you could simply
leave.

I was speaking of the manipulation of potential recruits being
symptomatic and in many ways mirroring the deceptive practices of the
administration. (Let's forget for the moment that the military is an
enforcement arm of an administration's policies. And in case you're not
familiar with the tactics of oppostion/war, if addressing the brain
doesn't work, then any apendage of Frankenstein's monster is fair game.)

To enter military service and then say, I dont
want to go there! or I don't want to do that!
is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp).

That was neither said or implied on this person's part. Buy your're certainly implying that it was and throwing it out as a new strawman.

but protesting a member wearing a Military uniform
is dishonorable and violates that individuals right
to free speech.

I believe it would serve the interests of accurate discussion if you went back to the root of
where your comments are coming from. The article read At a peaceful protest against
military recruitment... It did not say 'at a peaceful protest against a military
person.

Apples to apples, please.

Todd Swearingen

Larry Foran wrote:

Mike,
I understand your position but I must still disagree with the method
being employed to reach the goal.

Todd,
I must agressively disagree with your perception. As someone who
has been there gone through the enlistment process and served for 21
years. I know what goes on inside.

I agree that a military recruiter will paint as rosey a picture of
service as possible, but no one has to volunteer. No one is holding a
gun to your head and forcing you to enlist/accept a commision. It is
interesting the much of the activism against the Military is located
at Institutions of Higher Learning were discourse and discussion is
supposted to be applauded, but the military which defends those rights
are not allowed to have free expression.

I am sure that every job/position/employment you accepted was void
of manipulation. The only difference would be that you could simply
leave.

To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! or
I don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp).

Protest the Government, Protest its policies, Work through your
elected officials, but protesting a member wearing a Military uniform
is dishonorable and violates that individuals right to free speech.

Larry

On 6/3/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Larry,

Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are
the policy makers.

All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating
practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative
mentality that must be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a
theoretically free society.

Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation,
they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of
any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a
nation's citizenry.

Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not
under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).

Todd Swearingen

Mike,
I agree that anyone should be allowed to PEACEFULLY protest, but I
find it disturbing that individuals would protest military recruiters
on college campuses(sp). I am retired military and feel a strong bond
with our military.
Feel free to protest the administrations positions/policies, but
protesting military recruitment is dishonoring those who place their
lives on the line in defence of the freedoms we enjoy each day.
Military personnel are following the orders of elected civilian
officials. Military personnel do

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


GO LARRY!

Larry Foran wrote:

Mike,
  I understand your position but I must still disagree with the method
being employed to reach the goal.

Todd,
  I must agressively disagree with your perception.  As someone who
has been there gone through the enlistment process and served for 21
years.  I know what goes on inside.

  I agree that a military recruiter will paint as rosey a picture of
service as possible, but no one has to volunteer.  No one is holding a
gun to your head and forcing you to enlist/accept a commision.  It is
interesting the much of the activism against the Military is located
at Institutions of Higher Learning were discourse and discussion is
supposted to be applauded, but the military which defends those rights
are not allowed to have free expression.

  I am sure that every job/position/employment you accepted was void
of manipulation.  The only difference would be that you could simply
leave.

  To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! or
I don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp).

  Protest the Government, Protest its policies, Work through your
elected officials, but protesting a member wearing a Military uniform
is dishonorable and violates that individuals right to free speech.

Larry



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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Ron,

Why would you find it necessary to try and delve into personal 
exeriences when the public record and the dis-service to America is 
blatantly and patently apparent?


This isn't about me anymore than it would be about you or any single 
person. It's about propriety and impropriety. Those are standards that 
need no buttressing.


Todd Swearingen

I too am interested in hearing about it. And I would like to here what 
the recruiters did to you that was so bad.


Greg Harbican wrote:


Todd,
could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ?

Greg H.


- Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol 
Lang





Larry,

Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as 
are the policy makers.


All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and 
intimidating practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the 
manipulative mentality that must  be well guarded against in all 
ranks/levels of a theoretically free society.


Until recruitment practices across the board are void of 
manipulation, they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or 
any segment of any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and 
deceives a nation's citizenry.


Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, 
not under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).


Todd Swearingen






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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Tim, Greg, Todd, et al.

I remember the day I enlisted and the process, guess it just pays to
ask questions.  I knew about the reserve requirement if I did not
complete 6 years on active duty.  (I enlisted for 4 years active, two
reserve).  I also knew what the guys who enlisted for three years
would have to serve.

Predatory,
  Come on, the recruiter comes and tries to sale the military.  He
paints a rosey picture.  If you ask do some research (kick the tires,
look under the hood) you can get a pretty good picture of what life
will be like and it is not that bad of a life. (of course you may have
to fight in a war, but Duh! that is what a military is for)

Intimidating,
  Of Course, any new experience is going to be intimidating.

Larry

On 6/3/05, Tim Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello Greg,
 
 I know you addressed this to Todd but I thought I would give you a first hand 
 account. As mentioned before I was in the military.
 
 Deceptive - On the day I was out processed I discovered that all those 
 young men and women who had served less than three years,
 would have to serve a minimum one year in the national guard or reserves. 
 None of them were informed of this when they signed up on
 the two year enlistment program nor were they told during their 2 years of 
 active duty. Then we were all informed that if you did
 not serve a minimum of six years that we would all be placed on inactive 
 ready reserve and could be called back at any time by the
 military should our service be required. Again there was never any mention of 
 this in recruitment or while on active duty. Because I
 did serve six years, it didn't affect me but it all came as a great surprise 
 just the same. Quite Deceptive.
 
 Predatory - I was recruited from High School. The military is composed mostly 
 of 18 - 24 year old men and women. And knowing that
 many young 18 year old boys and girls lack life experiences to make the most 
 informed decisions (especially when deceptive means are
 employed) then I would consider that predatory.
 
 Intimidating - Well, I don't see that I was intimidating except for the 
 mountain of legalese and paperwork that was involved in my
 signing the dotted line.
 
 Maybe Todd can elaborate more eloquently but this was my experience.
 
 Best wishes,
 Tim
 
 
 
 
 Todd,
 
 could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ?
 
 Greg H.
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
 
 
  Larry,
 
  Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are
  the policy makers.
 
  All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating
  practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative
  mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a
  theoretically free society.
 
  Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation,
  they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of
  any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a
  nation's citizenry.
 
  Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not
  under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).
 
  Todd Swearingen
 
 
 
 
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 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

"To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! orI don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp)."

Well Larry, if that were true, we would have an increasing number of "self centered objectors" instead of conscientious objectors. Most people who join the military, do so with a belief (faith) that their commander-in-chief will make the right decisions. When they don't, it is no exaggeration to look at it as a breach of contract. You have every right to object to improper use of the military (that would be YOU, if you are a soldier) due to the fact that your government did not work with you in good faith.

Conscientious objectors are oftenexamples of fearless objectivity and heroism. They seewar during their time asa divisive instrument of policy and not a mechanism for self defense.

Mike
Larry Foran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Mike,I understand your position but I must still disagree with the methodbeing employed to reach the goal.Todd,I must agressively disagree with your perception. As someone whohas been there gone through the enlistment process and served for 21years. I know what goes on inside.I agree that a military recruiter will paint as "rosey" a picture ofservice as possible, but no one has to volunteer. No one is holding agun to your head and forcing you to enlist/accept a commision. It isinteresting the much of the activism against the Military is locatedat "Institutions of Higher Learning" were discourse and discussion issupposted to be applauded, but the military which defends those rightsare not allowed to have free _expression_.I am sure that every job/position/employment you accepted was "voidof manipulation". The only
difference would be that you could simplyleave.To enter military service and then say, I dont want to go there! orI don't want to do that! is simply childish selfcenterdness (sp).Protest the Government, Protest its policies, Work through yourelected officials, but protesting a member wearing a Military uniformis dishonorable and violates that individuals right to free speech.LarryOn 6/3/05, Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Larry, Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are the policy makers. All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative mentality that must be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a theoretically free society. Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation, they are as
much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a nation's citizenry. Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s). Todd Swearingen Mike, I agree that anyone should be allowed to PEACEFULLY protest, but I find it disturbing that individuals would protest military recruiters on college campuses(sp). I am retired military and feel a strong bond with our military. Feel free to protest the administrations positions/policies, but protesting military recruitment is dishonoring those who place their lives on the line in defence of the freedoms we enjoy each day. Military personnel are following the orders of "elected" civilian officials.
Military personnel do not have the latitude to dissent (unless those orders are unlawful). If students, teacher, or other professionals want to protest the government, then protest against the government, not the Military which is following the orders of the Government which was elected by those students, teachers, and/or professionals. Larry On 6/2/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Every once in a while, there is some good news about those who struggle against the current administration and their policies. Since we touch on the crisis in this forum, I thought some of you might be a little encouraged by this small victory. Mike _
DISTRICT ATTORNEY DROPS CHARGES AGAINST THE "CITY FOUR" CITY COLLEGE STAFF MEMBER TO DEFEND HERSELF IN STEP II HEARING At a peaceful protest against military recruitment on the City College of New York (CCNY) campus on March 9, 2005, campus security arrested three students and a staff member, and beat two of the students, and the college President, Gregory Williams, suspended the protesters without any investigation or hearing. Williams broadcast a statement claiming that all were guilty and that the College wouldn't tolerate "violence." But after a month's suspension, all four returned to the College when the charges were dropped. On May 19, the District Attorney (DA) moved to dismiss the charges within 6 month's time through an Adjournment in Contemplation of Dismissal
(ACD). Clearly, there was no evidence to try the four. The massive outpouring of support for the "City Four" and the outrage at City College's attempt to

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Well, well...

I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but 
I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.


This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us 
(that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who 
demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service 
will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he 
ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very opposite 
of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean 
he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean 
he's incapable of seeing it straight.


Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal 
of pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I 
don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to 
mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an 
extent, because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy 
(and the last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought, 
no?


One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get 
such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?) 
Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15 
years ago. Grotesque?



... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08

Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of 
Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1


Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31

Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36


Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?

Look at these figures:

Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between US 
$5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth 
bomber.


Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
- $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United States alone.

Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion 
plus some annual costs;

- $11 billion is spent annually on ice cream in Europe.

Reproductive health services for all women would cost $12 billion a year;
- $12 billion a year is spent on perfumes in Europe and the United States.

Basic health care and nutrition would cost $13 billion;
- $17 billion a year is spent on pet food in Europe and the United States.

$35 billion is spent on business entertainment in Japan;
$50 billion on cigarettes in Europe;
$105 billion on alcoholic drinks in Europe;
$400 billion on narcotic drugs around the world; and
$780 billion on the world's militaries.

-- From: Globalization Facts and Figures
http://learningpartnership.org/facts/global.phtml

It's not something to be admired. Yet Americans are so proud of it.

A majority of Americans thinks the US spends 24% of its budget on 
foreign aid instead of the actual figure, less than 1% - and most of 
that is tied to direct US benefit. And then there's this:


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article.htm
$1 trillion missing : Military waste under fire
05/18/05 San Francisco Chronicle
(Among other things, they LOST 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36 Javelin 
missile command launch-units.)


Grotesque and bizarre.

I'm not bashing the US, I'm not even trying to stop the discussion 
- please, go ahead, thrash it out, no problem. But please be aware of 
how peculiarly American it is. Pondering that a bit might add some 
perspective which might otherwise be lacking.


A couple of other things to ponder. Vietnam vets, or some of them 
anyway, seem to have a rather different view of military service. I'm 
reminded of a previous discussion here involving Vietnam vets when 
one of them boasted about the Purple Heart he'd won. Have a look in 
the archives if you like.


Why are benefits for soldiers' families being cut, and those for 
disabled soldiers too, IIRC, even as their numbers are soaring? Does 
the government they serve accord them the same respect their fellow 
Americans do? Are they perhaps just dispensable cannon-fodder, to be 
cashed in for a few votes or for the sake of a suspect ideology or 
perhaps for Haliburton's bottom line? Is all this respect perhaps 
making such things a lot easier than they should be? Is it misplaced? 
Is the military and military service a false sacred cow? How many US 
lawmakers have sons or daughters serving with the military in Iraq? 
One, wasn't it?


Best wishes

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Michael Redler wrote:


Well Larry, if that were true, we would have an increasing number of 
self centered objectors instead of conscientious objectors. Most 
people who join the military, do so with a belief (faith) that their 
commander-in-chief will make the right decisions. When they don't, it is 
no exaggeration to look at it as a breach of contract. You have every 
right to object to improper use of the military (that would be YOU, if 
you are a soldier) due to the fact that your government did not work 
with you in good faith.


	Here we disagree, Michael.  When a young person signs up for military 
service, he or she becomes the property of the military and the 
commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. 
Aside from defiance of illegal orders given by a direct superior, an 
enlistee has NO right to object.  Soldiers do what they are told to do.


 
Conscientious objectors are often examples of fearless objectivity and 
heroism. They see war during their time as a divisive instrument of 
policy and not a mechanism for self defense.


	Conscientious objectors have no place in an all volunteer army.  I'm 
old enough to have registered for the draft, and had I been called, 
military service would have contravened my Christian faith and I would 
have declined to serve as a combat soldier.  However, I was never 
drafted.  Therefore, my objection to military service has been a moot 
point.  Anyone who signs on the dotted line in the recruiting office 
agrees to support the armed services, with his life, if necessary.


	I have NO sympathy for anyone who agrees to soldier, then finds the 
duty distasteful.


	Todd brings up some strong points about coercion in recruiting, but 
the root of the issue lies in a societal glorification of bloodshed 
that is often mistaken for heroism.


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



___
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Keith,
  I knew, from previous veiwing on this list, that I would definetly
be in the minority.  However, discussion and sharing opinions is the
best part of living in any democracy.  How else would we ever get new
ideas, solutions.

  I guess it is just the Red State in me, but I am proud of the US
and its existing positions within the world community.  I have
experienced life in other countries and found some to be very
enjoyable, others however were very repressive.

  I do enjoy the discussion an look forward to more and others.

Larry

On 6/3/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well, well...
 
 I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but
 I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.
 
 This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us
 (that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who
 demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service
 will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he
 ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very opposite
 of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean
 he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean
 he's incapable of seeing it straight.
 
 Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal
 of pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I
 don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to
 mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an
 extent, because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy
 (and the last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought,
 no?
 
 One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get
 such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?)
 Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15
 years ago. Grotesque?
 
 ... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08
 
 Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of
 Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1
 
 Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31
 
 Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36
 
 Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?
 
 Look at these figures:
 
 Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between US
 $5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth
 bomber.
 
 Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
 - $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United States alone.
 
 Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion
 plus some annual costs;
 - $11 billion is spent annually on ice cream in Europe.
 
 Reproductive health services for all women would cost $12 billion a year;
 - $12 billion a year is spent on perfumes in Europe and the United States.
 
 Basic health care and nutrition would cost $13 billion;
 - $17 billion a year is spent on pet food in Europe and the United States.
 
 $35 billion is spent on business entertainment in Japan;
 $50 billion on cigarettes in Europe;
 $105 billion on alcoholic drinks in Europe;
 $400 billion on narcotic drugs around the world; and
 $780 billion on the world's militaries.
 
 -- From: Globalization Facts and Figures
 http://learningpartnership.org/facts/global.phtml
 
 It's not something to be admired. Yet Americans are so proud of it.
 
 A majority of Americans thinks the US spends 24% of its budget on
 foreign aid instead of the actual figure, less than 1% - and most of
 that is tied to direct US benefit. And then there's this:
 
 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article.htm
 $1 trillion missing : Military waste under fire
 05/18/05 San Francisco Chronicle
 (Among other things, they LOST 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36 Javelin
 missile command launch-units.)
 
 Grotesque and bizarre.
 
 I'm not bashing the US, I'm not even trying to stop the discussion
 - please, go ahead, thrash it out, no problem. But please be aware of
 how peculiarly American it is. Pondering that a bit might add some
 perspective which might otherwise be lacking.
 
 A couple of other things to ponder. Vietnam vets, or some of them
 anyway, seem to have a rather different view of military service. I'm
 reminded of a previous discussion here involving Vietnam vets when
 one of them boasted about the Purple Heart he'd won. Have a look in
 the archives if you like.
 
 Why are benefits for soldiers' families being cut, and those for
 disabled soldiers too, IIRC, even as their numbers are soaring? Does
 the government they serve accord them the same respect their fellow
 Americans do? Are they perhaps just dispensable cannon-fodder, to be
 cashed in for a few votes or for the sake of a suspect ideology or
 perhaps for Haliburton's bottom line? Is all this respect perhaps
 making such things a lot easier than they should be? Is it misplaced?
 Is the military

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Robert,

"...he or she becomes the property of the military and the commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. "
Point taken. But I think it's a bit oversimplified.

Do you mean to say that you (as property of the US armed services) would do"WHATEVER" your superior deemed necessary? That's quite a broad statement.

If your answer is yes, Then, I respectfullydisagree.

Mikerobert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Redler wrote: Well Larry, if that were true, we would have an increasing number of "self centered objectors" instead of conscientious objectors. Most people who join the military, do so with a belief (faith) that their commander-in-chief will make the right decisions. When they don't, it is no exaggeration to look at it as a breach of contract. You have every right to object to improper use of the military (that would be YOU, if you are a soldier) due to the fact that your government did not work with you in good faith.Here we disagree, Michael. When a young person signs up for military service, he or she becomes the property of the military and the commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. Aside from defiance of illegal orders given by a direct
superior, an enlistee has NO right to object. Soldiers do what they are told to do. Conscientious objectors are often examples of fearless objectivity and heroism. They see war during their time as a divisive instrument of policy and not a mechanism for self defense.Conscientious objectors have no place in an all volunteer army. I'm old enough to have registered for the draft, and had I been called, military service would have contravened my Christian faith and I would have declined to serve as a combat soldier. However, I was never drafted. Therefore, my objection to military service has been a moot point. Anyone who signs on the dotted line in the recruiting office agrees to support the armed services, with his life, if necessary.I have NO sympathy for anyone who agrees to soldier, then finds the duty distasteful.Todd brings up some strong points about coercion in recruiting, but the
root of the issue lies in a societal glorification of bloodshed that is often mistaken for heroism.robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Michael Redler wrote:


Robert,
 
...he or she becomes the property of the military and the

commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. 
Point taken. But I think it's a bit oversimplified.


	Is it really?  Can an army function without discipline?  When the 
lieutenant says: We have orders to secure that hilltop and neutralize 
enemy resistance, does an enlisted soldier have the right to disagree?


	My wife has a young cousin who joined the Marines a few years ago. 
Much to his dismay, and his family's distress, the Marine Corps sent 
him to Fallujah.  He tells us that he didn't want to go there.  He 
speaks of the situation being horrible and of his life being in 
constant danger.  But he couldn't say: No thanks.  I'd rather serve 
in Guam.
 
Do you mean to say that you (as property of the US armed services) would 
do WHATEVER your superior deemed necessary? That's quite a broad 
statement.


	Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any 
exceptions?



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Robert,

After giving your position some thought, I had a scary vision. An army, comprised of men and women who are willing to suppress their conscience and serve blindly, following the orders of whatever government is in power, irrespective it's motivation --effectively becominga political tool,indifferent toit's (your)purpose as either conqueror or defender.

No thanks. I'd rather go to my grave, labeled a traitor than betray my conscience if push comes to shove.

Maybe that's (partly) why recruiters are having so much trouble. Why volunteer to be put in such an ethical dilemma. Our motivation for being in Iraqis suspicious enough to raise a lot ofquestions that address this issue.
Mike
robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Redler wrote: Well Larry, if that were true, we would have an increasing number of "self centered objectors" instead of conscientious objectors. Most people who join the military, do so with a belief (faith) that their commander-in-chief will make the right decisions. When they don't, it is no exaggeration to look at it as a breach of contract. You have every right to object to improper use of the military (that would be YOU, if you are a soldier) due to the fact that your government did not work with you in good faith.Here we disagree, Michael. When a young person signs up for military service, he or she becomes the property of the military and the commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. Aside from defiance of illegal orders given by a direct
superior, an enlistee has NO right to object. Soldiers do what they are told to do. Conscientious objectors are often examples of fearless objectivity and heroism. They see war during their time as a divisive instrument of policy and not a mechanism for self defense.Conscientious objectors have no place in an all volunteer army. I'm old enough to have registered for the draft, and had I been called, military service would have contravened my Christian faith and I would have declined to serve as a combat soldier. However, I was never drafted. Therefore, my objection to military service has been a moot point. Anyone who signs on the dotted line in the recruiting office agrees to support the armed services, with his life, if necessary.I have NO sympathy for anyone who agrees to soldier, then finds the duty distasteful.Todd brings up some strong points about coercion in recruiting, but the
root of the issue lies in a societal glorification of bloodshed that is often mistaken for heroism.robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Robert,

This IMHO, this is another simplification.

Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any exceptions?What's illegal?

Mike
robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Redler wrote: Robert, "...he or she becomes the property of the military and the commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. " Point taken. But I think it's a bit oversimplified.Is it really? Can an army function without discipline? When the lieutenant says: "We have orders to secure that hilltop and neutralize enemy resistance," does an enlisted soldier have the right to disagree?My wife has a young cousin who joined the Marines a few years ago. Much to his dismay, and his family's distress, the Marine Corps sent him to Fallujah. He tells us that he didn't want to go there. He speaks of the situation being horrible and of his life being in constant danger. But he couldn't say: "No thanks. I'd rather serve in Guam." Do you mean to say that you (as
property of the US armed services) would do "WHATEVER" your superior deemed necessary? That's quite a broad statement.Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any exceptions?robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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RE: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-03 Thread Hans Reuchlin

"Hey,
you too can join the Army, and become a musician...", and other lies that
recruitement officers are resorting to in order to fill the
quotas..
It is
that kind of behavior that is reprehemsible.
Once
you sign up, you're done for I agree, but the blatant sexing up and
lies??
How
easy it is indeed, to fool an 18-year old.
Re-instate the draft I say, and see how many people suddenly have an
opinion.!!
Must
be Bush's nightmare...

-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Michael
RedlerSent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:45 PMTo:
Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA
Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Robert,

"...he or she becomes the property of the military and the commanders
will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. "
Point taken. But I think it's a bit oversimplified.

Do you mean to say that you (as property of the US armed services) would
do"WHATEVER" your superior deemed necessary? That's quite a broad
statement.

If your answer is yes, Then, I respectfullydisagree.

Mikerobert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Michael
Redler wrote: Well Larry, if that were true, we would have
an increasing number of "self centered objectors" instead of
conscientious objectors. Most people who join the military, do so
with a belief (faith) that their commander-in-chief will make the
right decisions. When they don't, it is no exaggeration to look at
it as a breach of contract. You have every right to object to
improper use of the military (that would be YOU, if you are a
soldier) due to the fact that your government did not work with you
in good faith.Here we disagree, Michael. When a young person signs
up for military service, he or she becomes the property of the military
and the commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem
necessary. Aside from defiance of illegal orders given by a direct
superior, an enlistee has NO right to object. Soldiers do what they are
told to do. Conscientious objectors are often examples
of fearless objectivity and heroism. They see war during their time
as a divisive instrument of policy and not a mechanism for self
defense.Conscientious objectors have no place in an all volunteer
army. I'm old enough to have registered for the draft, and had I been
called, military service would have contravened my Christian faith and I
would have declined to serve as a combat soldier. However, I was never
drafted. Therefore, my objection to military service has been a moot
point. Anyone who signs on the dotted line in the recruiting office
agrees to support the armed services, with his life, if
necessary.I have NO sympathy for anyone who agrees to soldier, then
finds the duty distasteful.Todd brings up some strong points
about coercion in recruiting, but the root of the issue lies in a
societal glorification of bloodshed that is often mistaken for
heroism.robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure
for Your
Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger
Supercharger Project
Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel
mailing
listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel
at Journey to
Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the
combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Hello Larry


Keith,
 I knew, from previous veiwing on this list, that I would definetly
be in the minority.


We are all in the minority, we are all in the majority too.


However, discussion and sharing opinions is the
best part of living in any democracy.


Yes... it's the essence of what we're all doing here. But you could 
have left out the last three words. Here on the Internet, it doesn't 
much matter where you live or under what sort of regime.



How else would we ever get new
ideas, solutions.


How else indeed.


 I guess it is just the Red State in me,


I'm sorry Larry, I don't know what that means.


but I am proud of the US
and its existing positions within the world community.


But the world community rejects these positions by a truly massive, 
unprecedented, majority (as do very many Americans). Yet you talk of 
democracy. It is contradictory. Not much sharing to be done if you're 
the only one in step, and insist on it, at everyone else's expense.



I have
experienced life in other countries and found some to be very
enjoyable, others however were very repressive.


Not to doubt or to disparage, but it depends how you did it. Were you 
there on your terms or theirs? There are people who say that, having 
lived in the local Hilton, corporate executives who say that but 
they've lived a life entirely buffered from the local conditions and 
experienced essentially nothing. And others who just muck in at 
street level with everyone else, live in an ordinary neighbourhood, 
get an ordinary job on local conditions. They've all experienced life 
in other countries - or have they?


There are so many Americans now who find the US very repressive. They 
liken it to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, yet I don't think they love 
their country any less than you do. Some of them write to me, they're 
anguished about it. There are quite a few of them here. Discussing 
and sharing opinions means accepting this diversity, IMHO, even 
relishing it.



 I do enjoy the discussion an look forward to more and others.


Good, and most welcome. All views are welcome, the more diverse the 
better. I guess the only view that isn't welcome is a refusal to 
accept those of others when they differ. That is truly sterile, I'm 
sure you'll agree.


Best wishes

Keith



Larry

On 6/3/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well, well...

 I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but
 I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.

 This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us
 (that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who
 demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service
 will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he
 ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very opposite
 of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean
 he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean
 he's incapable of seeing it straight.

 Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal
 of pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I
 don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to
 mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an
 extent, because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy
 (and the last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought,
 no?

 One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get
 such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?)
 Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15
 years ago. Grotesque?

 ... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08
 
 Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of
 Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1
 
 Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31
 
 Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36

 Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?

 Look at these figures:

 Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between US
 $5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth
 bomber.

 Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
 - $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United States alone.

 Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion
 plus some annual costs;
 - $11 billion is spent annually on ice cream in Europe.

 Reproductive health services for all women would cost $12 billion a year;
 - $12 billion a year is spent on perfumes in Europe and the United States.

 Basic health care and nutrition would cost $13 billion;
 - $17 billion a year is spent on pet food in Europe and the United States.

 $35 billion is spent on business entertainment in Japan;
 $50 billion on cigarettes in Europe;
 $105 billion on alcoholic drinks in Europe;
 $400 billion on narcotic drugs around the

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


'Twas not always thus. From an American icon:

... A common and natural result of an undue respect for law is, that 
you may see a file of soldiers, colonel, captain, corporal, privates, 
powder-monkeys, and all, marching in admirable order over hill and 
dale to the wars, against their wills, ay, against their common sense 
and consciences, which makes it very steep marching indeed, and 
produces a palpitation of the heart. They have no doubt that it is a 
damnable business in which they are concerned; they are all peaceably 
inclined. Now, what are they? Men at all? or small movable forts and 
magazines, at the service of some unscrupulous man in power? Visit 
the Navy Yard, and behold a marine, such a man as an American 
government can make, or such as it can make a man with its black 
arts-a mere shadow and reminiscence of humanity, a man laid out alive 
and standing, and already, as one may say, buried under arms with 
funeral accompaniments, though it may be


Not a drum was heard, not a funeral note,
As his corse to the rampart we hurried;
Not a soldier discharged his farewell shot
O'er the grave where our hero we buried.

The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as 
machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the 
militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus, etc. In most cases 
there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral 
sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and 
stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve 
the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw 
or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses 
and dogs. Yet such as these even are commonly esteemed good 
citizens...


-- Civil Disobedience
by Henry David Thoreau - 1849

In the 1940's it was read by the Danish resistance, in the 1950's it 
was cherished by people who opposed McCarthyism, in the 1960's it was 
influential in the struggle against South African apartheid, and in 
the 1970's it was discovered by a new generation of anti-war 
activists. The lesson learned from all this experience is that 
Thoreau's ideas really do work, just as he imagined they would.


when, in the mid-1950's, the United States Information Service 
included as a standard book in all their libraries around the world a 
textbook of American literature which reprinted Thoreau's 'Civil 
Disobedience,' the late Senator Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin 
succeeded in having that book removed from the shelves - specifically 
because of the Thoreau essay. - Walter Harding, in The Variorum 
Civil Disobedience


http://eserver.org/thoreau/civil.html
Thoreau's Civil Disobedience

Best wishes

Keith

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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Michael Redler wrote:


Robert,
 
After giving your position some thought, I had a scary vision. An army, 
comprised of men and women who are willing to suppress their conscience 
and serve blindly, following the orders of whatever government is in 
power, irrespective it's motivation -- effectively becoming a political 
tool, indifferent to it's (your) purpose as either conqueror or defender.


	The problem exists.  When I was a boy, we had a church member who'd 
served in the Wehrmacht on the Russian front.  He told chilling 
stories of having to fight Russians against his will, and the issue of 
whether or not he SHOULD have supported the Nazi regime remained in 
the forefront of his memory as long as the man lived.


Now, he'd been drafted, so he didn't have a lot of choice in the matter.

	The situation with respect to the U.S. military differs 
significantly.  Every enlistee has a choice of whether or not to join. 
 Those who do should be under no illusion that their service will 
involve brutal deeds inflicted upon other human beings.



No thanks. I'd rather go to my grave, labeled a traitor than betray my 
conscience if push comes to shove.


	I've explored this problem in my novel.  It's a vexing one. 
Lieutenant Calley in Vietnam believed he'd been ordered to waste the 
village of My Lai 4 by his superior, Captain Medina.  The lieutenant 
believed that if he didn't follow the order, he would suffer a court 
martial for disobeying a direct order.  An order to kill unarmed 
civilians is, however, illegal.  Doing so is murder.  Lieutenant 
Calley carried out what he believed to be his superior officer's will 
and suffered the consequences for it.


 
Maybe that's (partly) why recruiters are having so much trouble. Why 
volunteer to be put in such an ethical dilemma. Our motivation for being 
in Iraq is suspicious enough to raise a lot of questions that address 
this issue. 



	The simplest solution is to NOT support the policies that put our 
soldiers in harm's way.  I believe Larry was underscoring that protest 
should be directed against the policy makers.



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Michael Redler wrote:


Robert,
 
This IMHO, this is another simplification.


Sigh. . .  Please answer the question!


What's illegal?


	Any action that contravenes United States and International law. 
These include treason, murder, torture, rape, slave labor and a host 
of other indecencies.  That's what courts martial are intended to 
prosecute.



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Well done Kieth.

I especially liked the Thoreau from your the last post.

I would only like to add that IMO, civil discourse is something that needs to be practiced. I find myself looking backto find the flavor of our discussions bothbitter and sweet. I would be troubled if they weren't.My opinions have been received well by some andstrongly criticizedby others and I'm still learning to accept all of it for what it's worth and with the respect that it deserves. I findthe affirmation of my opinionscomforting andheated arguments keepingmy views in perspective. Although difficult to predict, it is a balance that I look for every day because it keeps me both humble and informed.

MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello LarryKeith, I knew, from previous veiwing on this list, that I would definetlybe in the minority.We are all in the minority, we are all in the majority too.However, discussion and sharing opinions is thebest part of living in any democracy.Yes... it's the essence of what we're all doing here. But you could have left out the last three words. Here on the Internet, it doesn't much matter where you live or under what sort of regime.How else would we ever get newideas, solutions.How else indeed. I guess it is just the "Red State" in me,I'm sorry Larry, I don't know what that means.but I am proud of the USand its existing positions within the world community.But the world community rejects these positions by a truly massive,
unprecedented, majority (as do very many Americans). Yet you talk of democracy. It is contradictory. Not much sharing to be done if you're the only one in step, and insist on it, at everyone else's expense.I haveexperienced life in other countries and found some to be veryenjoyable, others however were very repressive.Not to doubt or to disparage, but it depends how you did it. Were you there on your terms or theirs? There are people who say that, having lived in the local Hilton, corporate executives who say that but they've lived a life entirely buffered from the local conditions and experienced essentially nothing. And others who just muck in at street level with everyone else, live in an ordinary neighbourhood, get an ordinary job on local conditions. They've all experienced life in other countries - or have they?There are so many Americans now who find the US very repressive. They liken it
to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, yet I don't think they love their country any less than you do. Some of them write to me, they're anguished about it. There are quite a few of them here. Discussing and sharing opinions means accepting this diversity, IMHO, even relishing it. I do enjoy the discussion an look forward to more and others.Good, and most welcome. All views are welcome, the more diverse the better. I guess the only view that isn't welcome is a refusal to accept those of others when they differ. That is truly sterile, I'm sure you'll agree.Best wishesKeithLarryOn 6/3/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Well, well... I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular. This discussion could only happen in America,
while the rest of us (that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very opposite of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean he's incapable of seeing it straight. Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal of pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an extent, because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy (and
the last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought, no? One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?) Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15 years ago. Grotesque? ... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36 Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired? Look at these figures:
Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between US $5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth bomber. Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year; - $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Sorry Robert. I'm still not with you on this.

Holding prisonerswithout legal representation is illegal.
State sponsored tortureis illegal.
State sponsored assassination is illegal.
Invading a country without provocation or proof of an impending (imminent) attack is illegal.

...and we have loyal Americans zealously carrying out these orders every day with the full knowledge and support of the White House.

If you don't think any of these things are happening right now, I would gamble to say that there are some members in this forum who would be willing to offer some references. One of the manyplaces you can start, is with a Google search on "The School of The Americas". If you want to dig a little deeper, you can find CIA manuals and other documents that have been released through the Freedom of Information Act,listing "acceptable" methods of torture.

We have already determined that the Geneva convention is seen as optional in the eyes of thecurrent administration. So, "...United States and International law." is often mutually exclusive. In fact, what one sees as "legal" and "illegal" in this country, irrespective of whether it's military or civilian law, is becoming blurred. There are over 4000 federal laws in existence and the number is growing fast. If you look at what we consider legal and illegal in this country, one can become very confused. Some actually measure how much freedom/nationalism/democracy a country has by how many laws they have passed. If we're not careful, the Constitution will slowly wither away, thanks to an ever growing number of laws that follow in the footsteps of the Sedition Act,Japanese internment and the USA Patriot Act.

"...papers please"

Mike
robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Redler wrote: Robert, This IMHO, this is another simplification.Sigh. . . Please answer the question! What's illegal?Any action that contravenes United States and International law. These include treason, murder, torture, rape, slave labor and a host of other indecencies. That's what courts martial are intended to prosecute.robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-03 Thread Ken Dunn


Hi all,

I can elaborate on my  personal experience...I was approached, 
aggressively, by 3 of the 4 large branches.  After having taken the 
ASFAB exam and some advanced exams, I eventually decided that the USAF 
was the branch for me because of a particular opening that was 
available.  However, because this position was of high risk, it was 
labeled as Volunteer Only and because of this, I was told that I would 
have to wait until Basic Training to actually request and be slated to 
begin appropriate training.  Regardless of the risk, the position and 
training fit in very well with my long term interests - so I signed the 
dotted line.  My recruiter told me that in the mean time I should select 
a Guaranteed job that way if the positions in the career that I had 
chosen were filled, I would still have an acceptable career path to 
follow.   Still, I was told, because of the conditions of the position 
that I was interested in, I would still be able to persue this Volunteer 
Only position even though I had also select a Guaranteed Job.  I 
talked to my recruiter.  I talked to the folks at the MEPPS stastion.  
Let me tell you,  I asked a ton of questions and thought I knew exactly 
what I was in for.  Obviously, I didn't.  Upon speaking to the Guidance 
Counselor at USAF Basic Military Training, I was told that there was no 
way that I was going to get the position that I really wanted because I 
had agreed to accept a guaranteed position.  I was also told that my 
only recourse was the file a complaint against the MEPPS station.  
Needless to say,  I was furious and powerless and completely crushed 
under my dissappointment.


Now, I don't necessarily think that the recruiter is to blame in this 
situation that is the responsibility of the unrealistic quotas that they 
are expected to meet.  Still the same, I'd love to run into that guy 
sometime.  He has an earful coming.


$.02,
Ken

Greg Harbican wrote:

Todd, 


could you elaborate on deceptive, predatory and intimidating ?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 09:31
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


 


Larry,

Military recruitment/recruiters are as much a part of the problem as are 
the policy makers.


All one has to do is look at the deceptive, predatory and intimidating 
practices of recruitment to gain insight as to the manipulative 
mentality that must  be well guarded against in all ranks/levels of a 
theoretically free society.


Until recruitment practices across the board are void of manipulation, 
they are as much fair game for protest as is anyone or any segment of 
any institution that also manipulates, preys upon and deceives a 
nation's citizenry.


Let those who wish to serve enter into service under no illusions, not 
under fog of promise or incomplete and/or inaccurate premise(s).


Todd Swearingen

   





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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

"Every enlistee has a choice of whether or not to join. Those who do should be under no illusion that their service will involve brutal deeds inflicted upon other human beings."

Absolutely! It's the illusion with which activists havea problem. So, they go where the recruiters are -- to make sure there are NO illusions. Based on diminishing recruitment, I would say that the illusionsare diminishing.

Mikerobert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Redler wrote: Robert, After giving your position some thought, I had a scary vision. An army, comprised of men and women who are willing to suppress their conscience and serve blindly, following the orders of whatever government is in power, irrespective it's motivation -- effectively becoming a political tool, indifferent to it's (your) purpose as either conqueror or defender.The problem exists. When I was a boy, we had a church member who'd served in the Wehrmacht on the Russian front. He told chilling stories of having to fight Russians against his will, and the issue of whether or not he SHOULD have supported the Nazi regime remained in the forefront of his memory as long as the man lived.Now, he'd been drafted, so he didn't have a lot of choice in the matter.The
situation with respect to the U.S. military differs significantly. Every enlistee has a choice of whether or not to join. Those who do should be under no illusion that their service will involve brutal deeds inflicted upon other human beings. No thanks. I'd rather go to my grave, labeled a traitor than betray my conscience if push comes to shove.I've explored this problem in my novel. It's a vexing one. Lieutenant Calley in Vietnam believed he'd been ordered to "waste" the village of My Lai 4 by his superior, Captain Medina. The lieutenant believed that if he didn't follow the order, he would suffer a court martial for disobeying a direct order. An order to kill unarmed civilians is, however, illegal. Doing so is murder. Lieutenant Calley carried out what he believed to be his superior officer's will and suffered the consequences for it. Maybe that's (partly) why recruiters are having so
much trouble. Why volunteer to be put in such an ethical dilemma. Our motivation for being in Iraq is suspicious enough to raise a lot of questions that address this issue. The simplest solution is to NOT support the policies that put our soldiers in harm's way. I believe Larry was underscoring that protest should be directed against the policy makers.robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-03 Thread Garth Kim Travis


Greetings,
This is the kind of story I hear all the time from my friends kids.  It is 
a shame because many of them turn rather bitter towards their country.  The 
worst nightmare a person in our town suffered, was that their son broke his 
neck in basic.  He is not eligible for vet benefits since he had served 
less than one year.  Something they also don't tell you.  I know the public 
reason for the change, but they should have a way of making 
exceptions.  This is a good example of what Keith was talking about, the 
cut in benefits and the way the government is treating the military.


My father was a Highlander, in Canada.  I did basic training, one of the 
first women to do so in Canada.  The military can be a wonderful experience 
and teach you discipline, but I wonder how the much of that is lost when 
recruiters push so hard.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 05:04 PM 6/3/2005, you wrote:

Hi all,

I can elaborate on my  personal experience...I was approached, 
aggressively, by 3 of the 4 large branches.  After having taken the ASFAB 
exam and some advanced exams, I eventually decided that the USAF was the 
branch for me because of a particular opening that was 
available.  However, because this position was of high risk, it was 
labeled as Volunteer Only and because of this, I was told that I would 
have to wait until Basic Training to actually request and be slated to 
begin appropriate training.  Regardless of the risk, the position and 
training fit in very well with my long term interests - so I signed the 
dotted line.  My recruiter told me that in the mean time I should select a 
Guaranteed job that way if the positions in the career that I had chosen 
were filled, I would still have an acceptable career path to 
follow.   Still, I was told, because of the conditions of the position 
that I was interested in, I would still be able to persue this Volunteer 
Only position even though I had also select a Guaranteed Job.  I talked 
to my recruiter.  I talked to the folks at the MEPPS stastion.
Let me tell you,  I asked a ton of questions and thought I knew exactly 
what I was in for.  Obviously, I didn't.  Upon speaking to the Guidance 
Counselor at USAF Basic Military Training, I was told that there was no 
way that I was going to get the position that I really wanted because I 
had agreed to accept a guaranteed position.  I was also told that my only 
recourse was the file a complaint against the MEPPS station.
Needless to say,  I was furious and powerless and completely crushed under 
my dissappointment.


Now, I don't necessarily think that the recruiter is to blame in this 
situation that is the responsibility of the unrealistic quotas that they 
are expected to meet.  Still the same, I'd love to run into that guy 
sometime.  He has an earful coming.


$.02,
Ken




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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Michael Redler wrote:


Sorry Robert. I'm still not with you on this.
 
Holding prisoners without legal representation is illegal.

State sponsored torture is illegal.
State sponsored assassination is illegal.
Invading a country without provocation or proof of an impending 
(imminent) attack is illegal.
 
...and we have loyal Americans zealously carrying out these orders every 
day with the full knowledge and support of the White House. 


	No, I think you're perfectly with me on this!  The people who have 
ordered these policies have committed war crimes.  Just because they 
haven't been charged in court doesn't make their actions moral.  One 
day, these men will stand in front of a Holy God to explain their 
deeds and attitudes.  There will be no justification, no success in 
manipulating information, and no wealth that will cover their deserved 
shame.  I wouldn't want to be in their position on that day!


	Individual soldiers who sign up for the armed forces do so in full 
agreement with the actions of the government sponsoring their service. 
 (Todd points out that the reality of military recruitment often 
relies on deception.  There are MANY ways to lie.)  If anyone 
disagrees because they believe what happens in the U.S. military is 
illegal or immoral, they should NEVER enlist in the first place!



We have already determined that the Geneva convention is seen as 
optional in the eyes of the current administration.


	Our current administration has expressed no reservations about 
abrogating treaties, nor abiding by international law.  The definition 
of rouge state certainly applies.



So, ...United 
States and International law. is often mutually exclusive. In fact, 
what one sees as legal and illegal in this country, irrespective of 
whether it's military or civilian law, is becoming blurred. There are 
over 4000 federal laws in existence and the number is growing fast. If 
you look at what we consider legal and illegal in this country, one can 
become very confused. Some actually measure how much 
freedom/nationalism/democracy a country has by how many laws they have 
passed. If we're not careful, the Constitution will slowly wither away, 
thanks to an ever growing number of laws that follow in the footsteps of 
the Sedition Act, Japanese internment and the USA Patriot Act.
 
...papers please


	You are beginning to express what I have been witnessing for a very 
long time.


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re[2]: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-03 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Larry,

Friday, 03 June, 2005, 09:00:10, you wrote:

...snip...
LF   Feel free to protest the administrations positions/policies, but
LF protesting military recruitment is dishonoring those who place their
LF lives on the line in defence of the freedoms  we enjoy each day. 
LF Military personnel are following the orders of elected civilian
LF officials.  Military personnel do not have the latitude to dissent
LF (unless those orders are unlawful).
...snip

You  see,  this is the bit with which I have a problem. What dishonors
the  men  and women of our armed forces is going to Iraq and dying for
an  amply  demonstrated and proven lie. The only honor our troops have
in a dishonorable war is their own personal honor, and this is nothing
if not a dishonorable war.

Secondly,  our  troops  are  not  placing  their  lives on the line in
defense  of  our freedoms. They are placing their lives on the line in
defense  of a political and religious ideological position which is at
odds  with  the truth and the facts.  This regime may use the language
of  the  religious  right  but  they  have   gone  way  beyond  simple
fundamentalist  Christianity  into  Christian  reconstructionism   and
Christian  dominionist  dogma which is radical and at its root as evil
as  anything  gets.   They  are  placing  their  lives on the line for
another lie and it is immoral and absolutely outrageous.

And  lastly  brother, it comes to elected and I know you mean a free
and  democratic  election.  But, when you have Tweedle Dum and Tweedle
Dee  to  vote for and you do not receive all the facts, all the truth,
all  the  information you cannot make an informed decision and if ones
decision  is  not  an  informed  decision then ones vote is not a real
vote.  It  cannot  be  free  and  democratic.  The phrases, ...in the
interest   of   national  security...  and  ...that  information  is
classified... serve to cover up a lot of evil. The machine is corrupt
to  the  core  and  rigged  to stay that way. Votes do not control the
country  big money and big politics do, and all the hogs feed from the
same  trough at the end of the day. Republican or Democrat, liberal or
conservative, moderate or radical. Good and honest people do not enter
politics without doing one of three things: (a) leaving politics soon,
(b)  becoming  ineffectual  or  (c)  ceasing  to be good and honorable
people.  No  exceptions. If folks don't play by their rules they don't
play.

We  have  the liberty in this land of liberty to protest and criticize
whomever  we  please.   We  don't have the liberty to slander or libel
folks  but no one has immunity from reasonable criticism including the
military.  If the military fights and dies for these freedoms then how
are  we  disallowed from using them whether someone else likes what we
say  or not?  If people are not free to speak and voice their opinions
then  we can just chalk up one more lie.  No one is dishonored by open
and  honest criticism or by someone speaking the truth as they see it.
Disallowing  someone  that  right  would  be a dishonor to our service
personnel  past and present.  If freedom and truth is what our country
is  about  then  let's  have it and if it isn't then let's be up front
about what it is:  money, power and control.

The  people  of  this  country,  like  most  other  if  not  all other
countries,  are  good,  fair, honest and generous folks.  But brother,
the government and big business concerns are not the people.  They are
soulless  institutions  looking  out  for  their  own  welfare  and to
maintain  the  status  quo.   Don't  confuse  the  individual with the
institution.   The  recruiter  is  two  things at once.  A tool of the
government and a person.  Criticism of the tool is not necessarily and
I would think not even the same as criticism of the person.  The honor
of the recruiter or the military person comes from the person not from
the  institution.   I  understand  that this is an emotional thing for
former military people but it is something we have to get and be clear
on.

FYI  I  have  7 years 9 months and 20 days of honorable service with 2
honorable  discharges  and  2 extended Nam tours totalling 33.5 months
and  our unit received the meritorious unit citation of or work there.
My service was honorable.  My war was not.  Fool me once shame on you.
Fool me twice shame on me.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Salute Keith.. :-)

Here you go. Was walking through the parking lot of a local grocery last 
week when the woman walking in front of me threw her half-finished 
cigarette on the asphalt. I stopped, mentally shook my head, then picked 
up the still lit cigarette, trucked up behind her and said, Excuse me. 
You dropped this. as I handed it to her. She looked confused at first, 
then threw it back to the asphalt with even greater vigor than she 
originally had.


But that's not the half of it. Her husband had parked illegally in the 
handicapped spot. (He had no posted permit number/symbol on his 
windscreen.) He saw something going on between his wife and I, wasn't 
sure what it was, and stormed out of his car and up to me. A big guy he 
was by any comparison, appearing to be circa maybe 50-54, possibly a Nam 
vet.


I told him that I had returned the cigarette his wife had dropped and he 
flew into a rage, literally trembling and shaking. I was in the 
military and served my country so she could have the right to do that, 
he said. He also proceeded to literally command me to get in my car and 
get where I was going. When I asked if he was ordering me or suggesting, 
attempting to somewhat disarmingly reveal how seriously out of order 
his arrogance and attitude was,  he flew further into a splutter.


Long story short, in between his seizures and aneurisms he attempted to 
interrogate me as to past military status. Apparently he thought he 
outranked a fellow citizen somehow or that if I'd piped up with an 
inferior branch, rank or tour that his disconnects would be justified. 
(Or maybe then everything would have been okay and we could have been 
drinking buds?)


He was exceptionally dismayed when I didn't bite and told him that no 
one has the right to litter-ally trash the country he served or the 
land of his fellow countrymen. He did manage to think about that comment 
and start to chill a bit. Just rather odd how some service persons tend 
to think that they've somehow bought or received a right of 
superiority over others in perpetuity as a result of their service.


And for those who missed the point and would rather contemplate on an 
eco-terrorist who picks on little old ladies who throw their smokes out 
in public space rather than the Paul Bunyans of the world who do the 
same, fret not. We're an equal opportunity antagonist. Have been for 
decades. But that is another story


Funny thing cigarette trash. Picked up well over 10,000 butts in one day 
off one-quarter of one intersection in the metro-Orlando some years 
back. Imagine how many trillions are just non-chalantly chucked every 
year across the planet. Perfectly representative of the rest of the 
human condition..


Todd Swearingen


Keith Addison wrote:


Well, well...

I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but I'm 
undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.


This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us 
(that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who 
demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service 
will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he 
ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very opposite of 
respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean he 
necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean 
he's incapable of seeing it straight.


Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal 
of pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I don't 
wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to mind are 
perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an extent, 
because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy (and the 
last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought, no?


One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get 
such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?) 
Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15 years 
ago. Grotesque?



... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08

Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of 
Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1


Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31

Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36



Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?

Look at these figures:

Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between US 
$5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth bomber.


Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
- $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United States alone.

Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion 
plus some annual costs;

- $11 billion is spent annually on ice cream in Europe.

Reproductive health services for all women would

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

OK I understand what you mean. I think there is A LOT to cover here. It's Ironic how we talk about moral dilemmasas I have been so engaged in this thread that I respondedto you on company time (which I made up tonight).

One of the things you mention that isnot so concrete to me is:

"Individual soldiers who sign up for the armed forces do so in full agreement with the actions of the government sponsoring their service." and "If anyone disagrees because they believe what happens in the U.S. military is illegal or immoral, they should NEVER enlist in the first place!"

A lot can happen in 4 years. Especially for an 18 year old. Someonehas alreadypointed out in this thread that 18 year olds are vulnerable and recruiters know it. In addition, governments change along with acceptable criteria. That said, I think there have been a lot of valuable experiences and opinions expressed here -- the latest coming fromGS(danke) and I don't think there are many striking differences in sentiment. I don't have much to say except I'm feeling like toast right about now. I don't know how you do it Kieth. I mean, keeping up with all these threads. I got a lot out of this one.

Mikerobert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Redler wrote: Sorry Robert. I'm still not with you on this. Holding prisoners without legal representation is illegal. State sponsored torture is illegal. State sponsored assassination is illegal. Invading a country without provocation or proof of an impending (imminent) attack is illegal. ...and we have loyal Americans zealously carrying out these orders every day with the full knowledge and support of the White House. No, I think you're perfectly with me on this! The people who have ordered these policies have committed war crimes. Just because they haven't been charged in court doesn't make their actions moral. One day, these men will stand in front of a Holy God to explain their deeds and attitudes. There will be no justification, no success in manipulating
information, and no wealth that will cover their deserved shame. I wouldn't want to be in their position on that day!Individual soldiers who sign up for the armed forces do so in full agreement with the actions of the government sponsoring their service. (Todd points out that the reality of military recruitment often relies on deception. There are MANY ways to lie.) If anyone disagrees because they believe what happens in the U.S. military is illegal or immoral, they should NEVER enlist in the first place! We have already determined that the Geneva convention is seen as optional in the eyes of the current administration.Our current administration has expressed no reservations about abrogating treaties, nor abiding by international law. The definition of "rouge state" certainly applies. So, "...United States and International law." is often mutually exclusive. In fact, what one
sees as "legal" and "illegal" in this country, irrespective of whether it's military or civilian law, is becoming blurred. There are over 4000 federal laws in existence and the number is growing fast. If you look at what we consider legal and illegal in this country, one can become very confused. Some actually measure how much freedom/nationalism/democracy a country has by how many laws they have passed. If we're not careful, the Constitution will slowly wither away, thanks to an ever growing number of laws that follow in the footsteps of the Sedition Act, Japanese internment and the USA Patriot Act. "...papers please"You are beginning to express what I have been witnessing for a very long time.robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project
Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

Hi Todd,

I was almost the one who flew into a rage a couple of years ago while watching someone empty the ash tray from their car onto the side of the road.

We're an equal opportunity "antagonist."

Yes!However, I don't consider myself as polished as you. I'm hoping that bystudying your posts, I canimprove on that.

:-)

MikeAppal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Salute Keith.. :-)Here you go. Was walking through the parking lot of a local grocery last week when the woman walking in front of me threw her half-finished cigarette on the asphalt. I stopped, mentally shook my head, then picked up the still lit cigarette, trucked up behind her and said, "Excuse me. You dropped this." as I handed it to her. She looked confused at first, then threw it back to the asphalt with even greater vigor than she originally had.But that's not the half of it. Her husband had parked illegally in the handicapped spot. (He had no posted permit number/symbol on his windscreen.) He saw something going on between his wife and I, wasn't sure what it was, and stormed out of his car and up to me. A big guy he was by any comparison, appearing to be circa maybe 50-54, possibly a Nam vet.I told him
that I had returned the cigarette his wife had dropped and he flew into a rage, literally trembling and shaking. "I was in the military and served my country so she could have the right to do that," he said. He also proceeded to literally command me to get in my car and get where I was going. When I asked if he was ordering me or suggesting, attempting to somewhat "disarmingly" reveal how seriously out of order his arrogance and attitude was, he flew further into a splutter.Long story short, in between his seizures and aneurisms he attempted to interrogate me as to past military status. Apparently he thought he outranked a fellow citizen somehow or that if I'd piped up with an inferior branch, rank or tour that his disconnects would be justified. (Or maybe then everything would have been okay and we could have been drinking buds?)He was exceptionally dismayed when I didn't bite and told him that no one has the right to
"litter"-ally trash the country he served or the land of his fellow countrymen. He did manage to think about that comment and start to chill a bit. Just rather odd how some service persons tend to think that they've somehow bought or received a right of "superiority" over others in perpetuity as a result of their service.And for those who missed the point and would rather contemplate on an eco-terrorist who picks on little old ladies who throw their smokes out in public space rather than the Paul Bunyans of the world who do the same, fret not. We're an equal opportunity "antagonist." Have been for decades. But that is another storyFunny thing cigarette trash. Picked up well over 10,000 butts in one day off one-quarter of one intersection in the metro-Orlando some years back. Imagine how many trillions are just non-chalantly chucked every year across the planet. Perfectly representative of the rest of the human
condition..Todd SwearingenKeith Addison wrote: Well, well... I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular. This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us (that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very opposite of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean he's incapable of seeing it straight. Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal of pride? Where else is the military held in such high
esteem? I don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an extent, because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy (and the last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought, no? One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?) Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15 years ago. Grotesque? ... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08 Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1 Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31 Percentage of U.S. share of total
global military spending in 2000: 36 Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired? Look at these figures: Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between US $5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth bomber. Basic education for all

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Michael,

 I don't consider myself as polished as you.
 I'm hoping that by studying your posts, I can improve on that.

Nahhh, just rough hewn. Partly genetic. Partly a product of my (the 
global) environment.


But I was serious about the equal opportunity antagonist. Not 
intentional sought. Just sparked by my fellow humans.


Todd Swearingen


Michael Redler wrote:


Hi Todd,
 
I was almost the one who flew into a rage a couple of years ago while 
watching someone empty the ash tray from their car onto the side of 
the road.
 
We're an equal opportunity antagonist.
 
Yes! However, I don't consider myself as polished as you. I'm hoping 
that by studying your posts, I can improve on that.
 
:-)
 
Mike 


*/Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

Salute Keith.. :-)

Here you go. Was walking through the parking lot of a local
grocery last
week when the woman walking in front of me threw her half-finished
cigarette on the asphalt. I stopped, mentally shook my head, then
picked
up the still lit cigarette, trucked up behind her and said,
Excuse me.
You dropped this. as I handed it to her. She looked confused at
first,
then threw it back to the asphalt with even greater vigor than she
originally had.

But that's not the half of it. Her husband had parked illegally in
the
handicapped spot. (He had no posted permit number/symbol on his
windscreen.) He saw something going on between his wife and I, wasn't
sure what it was, and stormed out of his car and up to me. A big
guy he
was by any comparison, appearing to be circa maybe 50-54, possibly
a Nam
vet.

I told him that I had returned the cigarette his wife had dropped
and he
flew into a rage, literally trembling and shaking. I was in the
military and served my country so she could have the right to do
that,
he said. He also proceeded to literally command me to get in my
car and
get where I was going. When I asked if he was ordering me or
suggesting,
attempting to somewhat disarmingly reveal how seriously out of
order
his arrogance and attitude was, he flew further into a splutter.

Long story short, in between his seizures and aneurisms he
attempted to
interrogate me as to past military status. Apparently he thought he
outranked a fellow citizen somehow or that if I'd piped up with an
inferior branch, rank or tour that his disconnects would be
justified.
(Or maybe then everything would have been okay and we could have been
drinking buds?)

He was exceptionally dismayed when I didn't bite and told him that no
one has the right to litter-ally trash the country he served or the
land of his fellow countrymen. He did manage to think about that
comment
and start to chill a bit. Just rather odd how some service persons
tend
to think that they've somehow bought or received a right of
superiority over others in perpetuity as a result of their service.

And for those who missed the point and would rather contemplate on an
eco-terrorist who picks on little old ladies who throw their
smokes out
in public space rather than the Paul Bunyans of the world who do the
same, fret not. We're an equal opportunity antagonist. Have been
for
decades. But that is another story

Funny thing cigarette trash. Picked up well over 10,000 butts in
one day
off one-quarter of one intersection in the metro-Orlando some years
back. Imagine how many trillions are just non-chalantly chucked every
year across the planet. Perfectly representative of the rest of the
human condition..

Todd Swearingen


Keith Addison wrote:

 Well, well...

 I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons
but I'm
 undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.

 This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us
 (that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who
 demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service
 will not get that respect from the majority of list members, and he
 ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very
opposite of
 respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It doesn't even
mean he
 necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean
 he's incapable of seeing it straight.

 Where else in the world is military service placed on such a
pedestal
 of pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I
don't
 wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to
mind are
 perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an extent,
 because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy
(and the
 last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought, no?

 One then has to ask, where

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


Michael Redler wrote:


One of the things you mention that is not so concrete to me is: 
 
Individual soldiers who sign up for the armed forces do so in full 
agreement with the actions of the government sponsoring their service. 
and If anyone disagrees because they believe what happens in the U.S. 
military is illegal or immoral, they should NEVER enlist in the first 
place!
 
A lot can happen in 4 years. Especially for an 18 year old.


	This is true.  Many young people leave military service disillusioned 
because they bought into the lie that dedicating that portion of their 
lives to the armed forces automatically sustains the exalted 
principles of liberty and freedom.  However, once a young person has 
signed the document to enlist, he or she remains bound to honor that 
commitment for the duration of their enlistment, irrespective of 
whatever personal or political change occurs during that four year 
tenure.  Nobody should deny that modern combat remains a dangerous 
job, one that often requires better judgment than most young men and 
women are known to possess, and that permanent bodily harm or death is 
a serious reality for any soldier.


	I remember being that age, going to a recruiting station with a 
friend who was signing up.  I got bullied into taking the armed 
services test and did very well on the exam, but subsequently told the 
recruiter that though I'd registered for the draft I couldn't, in good 
conscience, enlist.  Next, I listened to him tell me what a wonderful, 
educational opportunity I was throwing away.  He explained that I 
could earn college credit during my service and made the Air Force 
sound like one big community college.  Nonetheless, I still said No, 
thank you.


	Three or four days later, I got an angry phone call from someone at 
the recruiting station, telling me that I was irresponsible for not 
showing up on my enlistment date, even though I didn't agree to 
enlist.  (That fact was apparently overlooked by the recruiting 
officer, who kept me on his list of enrollees.)  This person made me 
feel like a traitor for objecting to military service.  I held my 
ground, though doing so wasn't easy.  At the time, I was 
underemployed, hungry and therefore a prime candidate for the 
wonderful, educational opportunity the Air Force offered me.


	My point in writing this, is that young people CAN and DO resist the 
pressure to behave in ways contrary to their values.  If, at 18 years 
of age, they haven't thought moral issues through, their parents 
should be ashamed!



  That said, I think there have been a lot of
valuable experiences and opinions expressed here -- the latest coming 
from GS (danke) and I don't think there are many striking differences in 
sentiment.



	Most of us agree on far more than we disagree.  Sometimes it's hard 
to read what is written in this forum, but like you, I learn a LOT 
here from people who come from other places.  We Americans have a 
perspective that many in the rest of the world simply don't share, but 
they care about us, and we would do well to listen to our friends.



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-03 Thread WCOTE

Michael,

I like most of your points. If one signs or oaths a contract with the
MILITARY you are theirs to command. You are there to serve the people
but through the bureaucracy and hierarchy of the military.

One statement of yours bothered me though, ...had I been called,
military service would have contravened my Christian faith and I would
have declined to serve as a combat soldier. There is no contradiction
between being a Christian and serving as a soldier. We The People
are responsible for enforcing our moral will to mold moral policy into
OUR GOVERNMENT. As a soldier one is expected to follow the hierarchy of
command and there is little recourse. But the soldier isnt supposed to
second guess the orders, only follow them. If WE THE PEOPLE have done
our job, duty as a soldier, would not require any independent analysis.
I just hope the contravened my Christian faith is not an excuse to be
selective about ones duty. A soldier should not fight only when it is
politically correct. Being politically correct is the job of the
people, not the soldier.

Diesel Bill
Robert,

This IMHO, this is another simplification.

Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any exceptions?What's illegal?

Mike
robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Redler wrote: Robert, "...he or she becomes the property of the military and the commanders will do with every soldier whatever they deem necessary. " Point taken. But I think it's a bit oversimplified.Is it really? Can an army function without discipline? When the lieutenant says: "We have orders to secure that hilltop and neutralize enemy resistance," does an enlisted soldier have the right to disagree?My wife has a young cousin who joined the Marines a few years ago. Much to his dismay, and his family's distress, the Marine Corps sent him to Fallujah. He tells us that he didn't want to go there. He speaks of the situation being horrible and of his life being in constant danger. But he couldn't say: "No thanks. I'd rather serve in Guam." Do you mean to say that !
you (as
property of the US armed services) would do "WHATEVER" your superior deemed necessary? That's quite a broad statement.Aside from refusing to obey an illegal order, can you think of any exceptions?robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

2005-06-03 Thread WCOTE

Keith,

I don't mean to sound trite, but what is the price or cost of freedom 
(democracy)? 31, 33 or 51% of the worlds military budget isn't 
pertinent.

Diesel Bill

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, June 3, 2005 3:29 pm
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol 
Lang

 Hello Larry
 
 Keith,
   I knew, from previous veiwing on this list, that I would definetly
 be in the minority.
 
 We are all in the minority, we are all in the majority too.
 
 However, discussion and sharing opinions is the
 best part of living in any democracy.
 
 Yes... it's the essence of what we're all doing here. But you 
 could 
 have left out the last three words. Here on the Internet, it 
 doesn't 
 much matter where you live or under what sort of regime.
 
 How else would we ever get new
 ideas, solutions.
 
 How else indeed.
 
   I guess it is just the Red State in me,
 
 I'm sorry Larry, I don't know what that means.
 
 but I am proud of the US
 and its existing positions within the world community.
 
 But the world community rejects these positions by a truly 
 massive, 
 unprecedented, majority (as do very many Americans). Yet you talk 
 of 
 democracy. It is contradictory. Not much sharing to be done if 
 you're 
 the only one in step, and insist on it, at everyone else's expense.
 
 I have
 experienced life in other countries and found some to be very
 enjoyable, others however were very repressive.
 
 Not to doubt or to disparage, but it depends how you did it. Were 
 you 
 there on your terms or theirs? There are people who say that, 
 having 
 lived in the local Hilton, corporate executives who say that but 
 they've lived a life entirely buffered from the local conditions 
 and 
 experienced essentially nothing. And others who just muck in at 
 street level with everyone else, live in an ordinary 
 neighbourhood, 
 get an ordinary job on local conditions. They've all experienced 
 life 
 in other countries - or have they?
 
 There are so many Americans now who find the US very repressive. 
 They 
 liken it to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, yet I don't think they love 
 their country any less than you do. Some of them write to me, 
 they're 
 anguished about it. There are quite a few of them here. Discussing 
 and sharing opinions means accepting this diversity, IMHO, even 
 relishing it.
 
   I do enjoy the discussion an look forward to more and others.
 
 Good, and most welcome. All views are welcome, the more diverse 
 the 
 better. I guess the only view that isn't welcome is a refusal to 
 accept those of others when they differ. That is truly sterile, 
 I'm 
 sure you'll agree.
 
 Best wishes
 
 Keith
 
 
 Larry
 
 On 6/3/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Well, well...
  
   I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but
   I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.
  
   This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest 
 of us
   (that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who
   demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service
   will not get that respect from the majority of list members, 
 and he
   ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very 
 opposite  of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It 
 doesn't even mean
   he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as 
 easily mean
   he's incapable of seeing it straight.
  
   Where else in the world is military service placed on such a 
 pedestal  of pride? Where else is the military held in such high 
 esteem? I
   don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that 
 come to
   mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea 
 to an
   extent, because of North Korea - but at least they have a real 
 enemy  (and the last thing they want is to fight it out). Food 
 for thought,
   no?
  
   One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get
   such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?)
   Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15
   years ago. Grotesque?
  
   ... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08
   
   Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military 
 budgets of
   Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1
   
   Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 
 1985: 31
   
   Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 
 2000: 36
  
   Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?
  
   Look at these figures:
  
   Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost 
 between US
   $5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth
   bomber.
  
   Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
   - $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United 
 States alone.
  
   Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion
   plus some

Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael, 

I like most of your points. If one signs or oaths a contract with the 
MILITARY you are theirs to command. You are there to serve the people 
but through the bureaucracy and hierarchy of the military.


	I spoke with a friend this evening who is a Navy veteran.  He laughed 
when I talked about illegal orders.  He said: If they give you a 
direct order to burn a village and kill civilians, YOU DO IT.  If you 
don't, they'll GET you.  (Those were his words, not mine, but he 
speaks from experience.)




One statement of yours bothered me though, ...had I been called, 
military service would have contravened my Christian faith and I would 
have declined to serve as a combat soldier.


Um, that was MY comment, not Michael's.

There is no contradiction 
between being a Christian and  serving as a soldier.


	I've read that followers of Christ are supposed to love their enemies 
and pray for those who persecute them.  If we actually followed those 
commands, our world would be a very different place.



We The People 
are responsible for enforcing our moral will to mold moral policy into 
OUR GOVERNMENT.


Really?  Where is that found in the scriptures?

As a soldier one is expected to follow the hierarchy of 
command and there is little recourse. But the soldier isnt supposed to 
second guess the orders, only follow them. If WE THE PEOPLE have done 
our job, duty as a soldier, would not require any independent analysis. 


	Warfare is a complex series of events where moral issues are often 
magnified.  Some people see it as an extension of foreign policy.  I'm 
more inclined to see it as a failure of foreign policy.



I just hope the contravened my Christian faith is not an excuse to be 
selective about ones duty. A soldier should not fight only when it is 
politically correct. Being politically correct is the job of the 
people, not the soldier.


	In the U.S. right now, exercising conscience and speaking out against 
warfare isn't politically correct.  Rather, it's an unpopular position 
to espouse, one for which ridicule and accusations of treason have 
been leveled by people who believe that patriotism supersedes faith in 
God.



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

So what you are saying is, you have NO first hand experience. That you 
are content to spread second hand info spewed out by a  blatantly
biased anti military press. And bases on NO first hand info you are 
content to accept all the flotsam they give you and pass it along as if 
it were from the mouth of GOD. Does that about sum it up?

Ron

Appal Energy wrote:

Ron,

Why would you find it necessary to try and delve into personal 
exeriences when the public record and the dis-service to America is 
blatantly and patently apparent?


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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang

I can see this is going no where so I will leave it with one final bit 
of food for thought


. If it were not for the US defense budget and over a million American 
lives, there would only be 2 languages spoken it all of Europe, German 
and Russian. And all of Asia would be speaking Japanese. Oh How soon 
they forget. Nuff said.


Keith Addison wrote:

Well, well...

I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but I'm 
undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.


This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest of us (that 
is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who demands 
respect for his views on the basis of his military service will not get 
that respect from the majority of list members, and he ought to be aware 
of that. From some he might get the very opposite of respect. For me, 
it's simply not significant. It doesn't even mean he necessarily knows 
better, on the contrary, it could as easily mean he's incapable of 
seeing it straight.


Where else in the world is military service placed on such a pedestal of 
pride? Where else is the military held in such high esteem? I don't wish 
to be insulting, but the only possibilities that come to mind are 
perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea to an extent, 
because of North Korea - but at least they have a real enemy (and the 
last thing they want is to fight it out). Food for thought, no?


One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get such 
a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?) Especially 
of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15 years ago. Grotesque?



... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08

Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of 
Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1


Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31

Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36



Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?

Look at these figures:

Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost between US 
$5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth bomber.


Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
- $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United States alone.

Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion plus 
some annual costs;

- $11 billion is spent annually on ice cream in Europe.

Reproductive health services for all women would cost $12 billion a year;
- $12 billion a year is spent on perfumes in Europe and the United States.

Basic health care and nutrition would cost $13 billion;
- $17 billion a year is spent on pet food in Europe and the United States.

$35 billion is spent on business entertainment in Japan;
$50 billion on cigarettes in Europe;
$105 billion on alcoholic drinks in Europe;
$400 billion on narcotic drugs around the world; and
$780 billion on the world's militaries.

-- From: Globalization Facts and Figures
http://learningpartnership.org/facts/global.phtml

It's not something to be admired. Yet Americans are so proud of it.

A majority of Americans thinks the US spends 24% of its budget on 
foreign aid instead of the actual figure, less than 1% - and most of 
that is tied to direct US benefit. And then there's this:


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article.htm
$1 trillion missing : Military waste under fire
05/18/05 San Francisco Chronicle
(Among other things, they LOST 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36 Javelin 
missile command launch-units.)


Grotesque and bizarre.

I'm not bashing the US, I'm not even trying to stop the discussion - 
please, go ahead, thrash it out, no problem. But please be aware of how 
peculiarly American it is. Pondering that a bit might add some 
perspective which might otherwise be lacking.


A couple of other things to ponder. Vietnam vets, or some of them 
anyway, seem to have a rather different view of military service. I'm 
reminded of a previous discussion here involving Vietnam vets when one 
of them boasted about the Purple Heart he'd won. Have a look in the 
archives if you like.


Why are benefits for soldiers' families being cut, and those for 
disabled soldiers too, IIRC, even as their numbers are soaring? Does the 
government they serve accord them the same respect their fellow 
Americans do? Are they perhaps just dispensable cannon-fodder, to be 
cashed in for a few votes or for the sake of a suspect ideology or 
perhaps for Haliburton's bottom line? Is all this respect perhaps making 
such things a lot easier than they should be? Is it misplaced? Is the 
military and military service a false sacred cow? How many US lawmakers 
have sons or daughters serving with the military in Iraq? One, wasn't it?


Best wishes

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang