Re: [OSM-talk-be] busroutes
2010/8/17 Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com Ivo De Broeck wrote: I suppose some data can be used in OSM. So it must be possible to load all bus_stops from vvm_stop in batch in OSM? Only put in OSM what we're allowed to put in. Marc got this data for research purposes, he never got permission to put it in OSM. He doesn't care about that, but the rest of us do. There are a lot of things that can be said about whether the data should be free to use (or maybe is with the law about database rights), but I'd like to see it more thoroughly investigated before any of this data gets in OSM than someone saying I think it's fine. And in fact I hate that this database was made available to download without permission with a link on our mailing list given that OSM is so careful about license issues. Greetings Ben Its not forbidden to put a link to another website. It was very interesting to analyze the database of De Lijn. It convinced me that there is no relation such as stadsbus 8 but trips like from A to B via C. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] busroutes
Ivo De Broeck wrote: Its not forbidden to put a link to another website. It is forbidden to make this data available online, like Marc did. And it's careless to link to this data on places like this mailing list: if we ever go out to hunt for available data that we can import in OSM, and they see that data like this was just made available without permission, now that doesn't give a very good impression, does it? And really, I don't care if Marc throws data like this online without permission. As long as he does it without any reference to the OSM project. Greetings Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[OSM-talk-be] Tijdeljike features
Hoi allemaal, marcel_travel heeft het camping-terrein van de Antiliaanse feesten in Hoogstraten gemapped: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.43538lon=4.8023zoom=15layers=M Nu is de vraag: Dit terrein is maar 1 weekend per jaar aanwezig in deze vorm, kunnen we dit ergens aangeven? Groetjes, Paul (Pensacola) Cardinaels ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Tijdeljike features
Ik vrees dat OSM niet de geschikte plaats is om gelegenheidstoestanden te mappen zoals een festivalterrein, toch niet als dat allemaal 'tijdelijke' wegen, kampeerplaatsen, etc.. zijn. Als de wegen permanent zijn, maar slechts uitzonderlijk toegankelijk, kunnen die eventueel gemapt worden als 'private' of access = restricted/no Een gelijkaardige discussie is er al eens geweest rond wegomleggingen en tijdelijke verkeerssituaties in verband daarmee. Toen was de conclusie dat die in OSM konden worden aangepast als 1. die lang genoeg duurden (minimaal meerdere maanden) 2. degene die de aanpassingen maakte ook zelf in de gaten kon houden wanneer er terug moest gewijzigd worden naar de normale toestand. Luc / Speedy 2010/8/18 Paul Cardinaels p.cardina...@gmail.com Hoi allemaal, marcel_travel heeft het camping-terrein van de Antiliaanse feesten in Hoogstraten gemapped: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.43538lon=4.8023zoom=15layers=M Nu is de vraag: Dit terrein is maar 1 weekend per jaar aanwezig in deze vorm, kunnen we dit ergens aangeven? Groetjes, Paul (Pensacola) Cardinaels ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Tijdeljike features
Paul Cardinaels wrote: Hoi allemaal, marcel_travel heeft het camping-terrein van de Antiliaanse feesten in Hoogstraten gemapped: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.43538lon=4.8023zoom=15layers=M Nu is de vraag: Dit terrein is maar 1 weekend per jaar aanwezig in deze vorm, kunnen we dit ergens aangeven? Groetjes, Paul (Pensacola) Cardinaels Er is zoiets gelijkaardigs met Burning Man in de VS. Dat is ook telkens iets van een week per jaar, en om het nog leuker te maken, elk jaar op een iets andere plek. Het heeft mappers er ook niet van weerhouden om het te mappen, en dan krijg je dit http://osm.org/go/Tctf1ucb- Persoonlijk heb ik er niks tegen dat mensen dit mappen, maar zodra het voorbij is moet het dan ook weer uit OSM (of toch anders getagd misschien als je echt per se iets wil bijhouden). Zeker iets als deze festivals, waar het terrein meestal ook elk jaar anders ingedeeld is. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL, CTs and tracing GPS tracks
Assuming GPS tracks have some legal protection in some legal jurisdictions, does anyone care to take a stab at answering my original question? :) TimSC ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL, CTs and tracing GPS tracks
1. While a GPS track recorded 'by accident' while you're doing something else could be considered mere fact, if you expressly go out on a mapping trip and choose which streets to walk down and which to omit, there is some creative element. (I know that I walk in careful patterns to make a good- looking trace.) 2. Obviously, waypoint text included on the track is copyrightable. 3. If OSM chooses to switch to ODbL, and attempts to assert restrictions over the redistribution of factual data even if not copyrightable, it would be inconsistent to treat other people's data with less than the strictness we demand for our own. (This point is obviously an opinion.) 4. Sweat-of-the-brow and/or database right law would also argue against unrestricted use of GPS tracks outside the purpose for which they were originally contributed. 5. If GPS tracks were, in the end, considered unprotected and freely usable for adding to a non-CC-BY-SA data set, then most of the map data would be also, by the same argument. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Is tracing from Yahoo allowed under the CT's
- Original Message - From: Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org To: Licensing and other legal discussions. legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Is tracing from Yahoo allowed under the CT's David, David Groom wrote: Secondly from the second line of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Yahoo#Legalities you will see the phrase Yahoo! have agreed to let OSM use their aerial imagery [ under the old licence terms], and large parts of the remainder of that page go on to mention the agreement with Yahoo etc. I fixed that page. If you read the page closely, it already said further down that It seems to be more a case of agreeing an interpretation of their Terms of Use., and the Yahoo! guy quoted did not say anything about an agreement. By the way, I did read the page closely, and included the above text in my original post :) Truth is, Yahoo were approached by us and basically said: Yes we think it's ok if someone traces vector data from our maps, that would not be our copyright anymore. Which meant, *specifically*, that OSM could trace and release under CC-BY-SA, and since that was all that was of interest to us at the time, we put that wording on the wiki page. Thank you for clarifying that Yahoo did not give agreement that was limited to CC-BY-SA David If there ever was an agreement it was not about who can use the data under what license, but instead - and that took us a while to sort out - how exactly we were allowed to display Yahoo data in our editors. Mikel Maron did the talks with Yahoo at the time. Bye Frederik ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Contradictory Contributor Terms?
- Original Message - From: SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk To: Licensing and other legal discussions. legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 1:25 PM Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] Contradictory Contributor Terms? A few days ago a question was asked about the first and last sentences of the new CT (https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/terms) being contradictory (http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2010-August/003969.html). I know that everyone's been busy, but was that question ever answered? Taking OS OpenData as an example, their licence (http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/opendata/licence/docs/licence.pdf) makes the statement OS OpenData™ is covered by either Crown Copyright, Crown Database Right, or has been licensed to the Crown. That implies to me that although the OS are happy for me to use it (subject to their terms) sentence 1 of the new CTs prevents the addition of it to OSM. However, this is contradicted by sentence 3 If You are not the copyright holder of the Contents. Can anyone associated with the draughting of the new CTs explain why this isn't a contradiction? Perhaps (as Bernard Ingham said) it's a cock-up rather than a conspiracy and there's just an or missing somewhere? Andy there has been some discussion here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Open_Database_License/Contributor_Terms/Open_Issues#Contradiction_within_the_paragraph_no_.281.29 David Cheers, Andy ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL, CTs and tracing GPS tracks
Jukka Rahkonen writes: I have understood that uploaded GPS track logs that we have now are effectively public domain. They are facts (even they do not allways tell the truth) and they miss all the creativity so they are not copyrightable. Everybody can use at least individual tracks for any purpose. At the moment only OSM map data are under CC-BY-SA but track logs are free facts. When we signed up to OSM, we agreed: By creating an account, you agree that all work uploaded to openstreetmap.org and all data created by use of any tools which connect to openstreetmap.org is to be (non-exclusively) licensed under this Creative Commons license (by-sa) Surely this includes GPS tracks? Ok, the issue of whether they are copyrightable is still up for debate, but presumably the answer is, as usual, probably in some jurisdictions (IANAL). But by uploading them to OSM and releasing them CC-by-SA, we have certainly tried to assert copyright, at the very least (which is a shame - although I might have some misgivings about the map data being PD, I, and I'm sure most others would have no such misgivings about GPS traces). David -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-ODbL-CTs-and-tracing-GPS-tracks-tp5428829p5437347.html Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bilingual rendering for Greece
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:44:48 +0200, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: while working on some special purpose map rendering I was told that it would also be interesting for Greece. So here I have a bilingual map rendering for Greece: http://greece.osm-tools.org/ Please let me know if you consider this useful. Currently the map data of *this* map is not updated. Very! And it would be for all other non-latin scripts too. It would be a nice addition if tiles were rendered in local script and latin and shown like that based on preference or viewer location. Not sure if people from those areas feel the same about getting places with latin script in their script. Of course that requires some additional computing power. Would it be an option to put captions (up to a certain extent) on a different layer? Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
Interesting. In the past I've just used JOSM to download all the GPS traces in my area and then taken a screen shot. Since I have been the only person in a 100 mile radius contributing to OSM, I could just use that to say these are all my traces but now there is finally another mapper in the area cluttering up my traces so I may have to take a look at this :) Toby On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Cory Lueninghoener cluen...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I was inspired a few weeks ago to do something more with all of the GPS traces I've collected over the last three and a half years. After a bit of hacking with Processing, I found I had created a toy that made (in my opinion) some fun art style plots of where I had been: http://www.wirelesscouch.net/gpsmaps/ I'm sure other people have written their own versions of this same thing (I know they have, 'cuz I've seen similar images on the web), but I figured I'd share my version here. I didn't bother researching those other implementations, so I wouldn't be surprised of they're better than mine. :) Anyway, if anybody is interested in playing with the (very beta) toy, feel free to grab a copy: http://www.wirelesscouch.net/labs/gpxmap/ Point it at a directory full of .gpx files and it should do the rest. Enjoy! -- Cory Lueninghoener Hacker, Photographer, Tinkerer http://www.wirelesscouch.net/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RFC: what are empty nodes and how should we use them?
2010/8/18 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: [...] Seriously, guys, creating nodes with zero tags attached, and attempting to express meaning through them? That's dumb. It's hard enough managing the various confusing meanings of actual tags, without having to mindread your way through the absence of them... Steve +1 For showing that the road continues I make a small stump of highway=road, fixme=continuation which meaning should be quite obvious to others I hope. It renders, so you can even see on the map that aha, there's a road here that just hasn't been mapped yet http://osm.org/go/0eeuQyGu-- This also gives the benefit of routers correctly adressing roundabouts (so it says take the second exit instead of saying take the first exit just because the real first exit isn't mapped yet) or junctions (so it says at the junction turn left instead of saying at the end of the road, at the T-crossing, turn left just because the road straight ahead isn't mapped yet). Konrad ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bilingual rendering for Greece
Maarten Deen wrote: On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:44:48 +0200, Stephan Knauss So here I have a bilingual map rendering for Greece: http://greece.osm-tools.org/ Please let me know if you consider this useful. Currently the map data of *this* map is not updated. Very! And it would be for all other non-latin scripts too. It would be a nice addition if tiles were rendered in local script and latin and shown like that based on preference or viewer location. I would like to see the bilingual style used in the main rendering. That uses name:en when available. As I was asked: The name is created using different views. Code is available for download: http://downloads.osm-tools.org/bilingual/ It needs a patch in mapnik. Either get the patch from trac or wait until it's officially delivered. http://trac.mapnik.org/ticket/584 You could set up multiple fallback languages and redirect the visitor based on the language settings reported by the browser. Even things like use name:de if available, else use name:en is possible. Would it be an option to put captions (up to a certain extent) on a different layer? Some people tried this on Toolserver. It's complicated because different languages take up different space on the map. So the placement of icons is not trivial. I have the feeling that currently it's easier to simply render the language that's of interest. Stephan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Papers integration with OSM.org ?
Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com writes: At this past weekend's State Of The Map conference in Atlanta, the idea of integrating Walking Papers into the OSM site proper came up a few times. Do people this this is a good idea? An interesting idea? Sounds great. And now for something completely different ;) since there is a chance you read this. *I* miss a capability in walking papers to create a PDF single containging selected area split into several pages. -- Miłego dnia, Łukasz Stelmach ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Seamarks
On Tuesday 17 August 2010 23:54:55 you wrote: Bernhard R. Fischer wrote: For a long time now I am interested in tagging seamarks.(short version) Same here. I always knew that there wasn't anything near to consensus about much of anything on that front though, with a lot of bad blood in the German OSM community, which is one of the reasons why I shied away from getting involved until about now. Very frustrating situation indeed. Now I found out that there are two comparable but different and competing tagging schemes: * http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/marine-tagging * http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lights_Data_Model The first one is used by freietonne.de the second one by openseamap.org. Consequently, there exist two disjoint marine maps. Right. New information (at least, new to some, including me) has surfaced on the German [Talk-de] OSM mailing list that says (paraphrasing) the first mentioned is the one and only official proposal (incidentally also used by FT, FreieTonne.de). The second link you mentioned is part of the scheme of the other project (OSeaM, openseamap.org). So it would appear that we actually have * one official proposal, currently under discussion (also used by FT) * one private scheme, with private tags (exclusively used by OSeaM) Now, the thing is I'm not really sure about this assessment. What I wrote above is my current understanding of the situation, which may be wrong. I'd appreciate input from FT or OSeaM project members on this matter, or really from anyone at all! This is extremely frustrating! Computers do not care about attribute names and we shouldn't also as long as both schemes fulfill the same requirements. This is not just a naming issue. The tagging concepts of the schemes are rather different (contrary to what has been alleged somewhere on the Wiki). There seems to be a lot of half knowledge and smattering among some of those who wrote on the Wiki on marine topics in the past, which of course is very conductive to misunderstandings. I believe this is part of what fuelled the conflicts between FT and OSeaM back then (but I was an observer in those conflicts only, so what do I know :) ). Anyway, one thing I find particularly remarkable is that on just about every one of the Wiki pages, someone wrote something about that this tagging scheme followed IHO standard S-57, and how important and cool that would be, while actually (and thankfully), none of those schemes even come close to S-57. S-57 is basically a soon-to-be-obsolete, proprietary and binary file format, so following it wouldn't really make a lot of sense for OSM. Not sure why so many people wrote that. Perhaps someone on this list is able to enlighten me? Cheers, Arne Arne, I'm a little bit more into details of all that, yet. The approaches of FT and OpenSeamap are a little bit different. OpenSeamap uses the OSM database exclusively while FT has its own database (as far as I understood) and they put just some pieces of information into the OSM database. Also FT puts just an overlay on top of the Openstreetmap map but Openseamap completely renders a seamap with focus on seamap features. Regarding the tagging schemes. Openseamap uses this proprietary seamark:*=* scheme but FT uses just a subset of the official proposal. There is page which documents it: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:FreieTonne/Symbole (It is in German but if you take a brief overview you'll partially understand it (German words: Bake=beacon, Tonne=buoy, Leuchtfeuer=light,Rot=red,Weiß=white,Grün=green)). This is the reason why I personally favor Openseamap more than FT. In addition, FT is focused more on inland waterways. A further question for me is what is official and what is private? Both of those tagging schemes are similar although the structure is different, as you mentioned. And, what is IMO much more important, the Openseamap scheme is already rendered on OpenSeamap which is not true for the other one and I stick with the opinion of the Openseamp guys: a seamap should be rendered different than a street map because different objects are important. However, as an IT guy I prefer the Openseamp scheme to the offical one because it is more modular from a technical point of view. Thus, I hope that people out there do not still ignore the Openseamap scheme. After all, I translated it into English ;) Regarding S-57: I think what they mean is that they orient on the S-57 schemes in respect to which attributes exist on which objects. Best regards, Bernhard signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Seamarks
On Tuesday 17 August 2010 21:40:55 Malcolm Herring wrote: Andreas Labres wrote: Continuing dispute between the two groups I was suggesting that a state of peaceful co-existence can be achieved - Our editors will not alter or remove tags that are not ours, and hopefully this will be reciprocated. I think that co-existence can just be a transitional solution until this is (sometimes hopefully) thrashed out. After that a conversion from one format to the other one shouldn't be too complex. The cbm proposal and the Openseamark scheme are very compatible. Joining FT symbols will get a little bit more tricky since it is not very modular defined. Best regards, Bernhard signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
2010/8/18 Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com: Interesting. In the past I've just used JOSM to download all the GPS traces in my area and then taken a screen shot. I did some visualisations in the past using gnuplot, but not caring about projections and the like (just used a cartesian grid). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Seamarks
Hi Bernhard, thanks for your reply. This message has become longer than I initially expected, as I added some general thoughts of mine. Please do feel free to ignore those and concentrate on open questions. :) Bernhard R. Fischer wrote: [...] Also FT puts just an overlay on top of the Openstreetmap map but Openseamap completely renders a seamap with focus on seamap features. Not sure what you're referring to. I mean, http://www.freietonne.de/seekarte/ and http://openseamap.org/ are both just overlays on top of the standard Mapnik OSM rendering, right? [...] This is the reason why I personally favor Openseamap more than FT. In addition, FT is focused more on inland waterways. Personally, I favour neither one of those projects. I'd just like to add some marine data to OSM, and don't fancy doing it twice (once per tagging scheme). Besides, there are clear technological issues with this kind of redundancy. I'm also thinking about writing a new renderer (or renderer style) for marine data in OSM, and find the existing documentation of the tagging schemes in use less than optimal for that purpose. A further question for me is what is official and what is private? Both of those tagging schemes are similar although the structure is different, as you mentioned. As far as I can see, the similarities pretty much end with the fact that they both can be used for buoys and beacons and stuff. Sure, some of the strings look the same, but because of the different structure this merely adds to the confusion. Speaking of the structure: I also have the impression, that the OSeaM scheme views all of their tags as non-optional, resulting in a true proliferation of tags even for otherwise simple objects. But I may be wrong on that. The Wiki appears to be silent on the matter. Anyway, what I meant by official is something like the Map Features -- a single go-to-page with most relevant links to the consensus of the OSM community as far as tagging is concerned, enabling newbies to just go ahead and start working. With private I meant a tagging scheme that is not used in OSM except by a certain group of people for their own purposes. But as I said, I may have misunderstood the earlier discussion on this matter on [talk-de]. And, what is IMO much more important, the Openseamap scheme is already rendered on OpenSeamap which is not true for the other one and I stick with the opinion of the Openseamp guys: a seamap should be rendered different than a street map because different objects are important. Sorry, I'm not a member of either project and hence am not very well versed in their technology. Which renderer are you presently referring to? I mean, as far as I know, both projects have their own slippy maps on their home pages (see above), but at this point neither of them really looks different than a street map because they both use the default Mapnik rendering style as base. But then again, there also appear to be existing solutions to export marine data from OSM to embedded systems (hand-held GPSs, chart plotters etc.), so the renderer landscape could be said to be a bit more diverse than just consisting of a few slippy maps. Perhaps you're referring to one of these exported OSM displays..? I agree with you BTW: a marine map should eventually be rendered different from land maps, no matter whether the sea or inland waterways are depicted. However, as an IT guy I prefer the Openseamp scheme to the offical one because it is more modular from a technical point of view. How is it more modular? How would modularity be useful in a practical sense? Can you provide an example or use case? Being an IT guy myself, I think that maintainability (i. e. ease-of-use) of source code is very important. With tags being OSM's source code, this makes me a big fan of the pragmatism that generally governs the OSM community's approach to finding and agreeing upon new tags. That's also why I'd like to see OSM tags for marine data that are conceptually similar to OSM tags for land data. And that's also why I have every expectation that we'll eventually arrive at such a tagging scheme, however it may look. :) Thus, I hope that people out there do not still ignore the Openseamap scheme. After all, I translated it into English ;) Ah, thanks for doing that. Hopefully it will facilitate some discussion. Regarding S-57: I think what they mean is that they orient on the S-57 schemes in respect to which attributes exist on which objects. Yes, maybe that's what happened. But S-57 is very convoluted and very specific to ENCs, even just far as the object attributes are concerned. OSM can be a lot more flexible. We should make use of that flexibility. I for one think it would be a mistake to have another data format's constraints carry over into OSM. Cheers, Arne -- Arne Johannessen ___ talk mailing list
[OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
It has been a while since the use of collection and street relations for collections of ways belonging to the same street have been discussed. I just had a look at http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Planet/En/top_undocumented_relations.html and both relations area apparently ±equally used. Of course I understand that everybody should tag what he/she thinks suits him/her best, but in rather fundamental cases like this I personally would prefer a somewhat coordinated approach ;-) I would be interested in your opinion on preference for one of the types (there is a short discussion on one of the talk pages, focussing on the dilemma of being too specific/too fundamental), as I'm trying to make up my mind which one to use here in north Brazil, where neither of both relations have been much applied yet. Thanks! Ulf -- Ulf Mehlig ulf.meh...@gmx.net -- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
Ulf wrote: I just had a look at http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Planet/En/top_undocumented_relation s.html and both relations area apparently ±equally used. Can't help answering your question, Ulf, but in what way is http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:associatedStreet undocumented? I know JOSM validator plugin doesn't know about it, but I ignore those warnings... Does it need its own page rather than a redirect? Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: and both relations area apparently ±equally used. True, it's not two but three relations proposals for the same purpose: collection, street and associatedStreet Althoughcollection is not limited to streets, it's also proposing street addresses members... Since associatedStreet was historicaly the first proposal including house numbers and is the most popular according to Tagwatch, I would suggest to deprecate the street proposal and remove streets from the collection proposal. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
For some time I have been thinking about making a tileserver / WMS with a visualisation of OSM GPS traces, but one where you can see how many traces overlap at a given point (so some kind of heat map thing). This would be used for tracing in JOSM instead of displaying all the traces in the same colour. This would really let you estimate where the centreline of a road / lane is and would let you really take advantage of having 1000s of traces for the same street (like in big cities with many mappers). Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
On 18 August 2010 22:51, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: For some time I have been thinking about making a tileserver / WMS with a visualisation of OSM GPS traces, but one where you can see how many traces overlap at a given point (so some kind of heat map thing). This would be used for tracing in JOSM instead of displaying all the traces in the same colour. This would really let you estimate where the centreline of a road / lane is and would let you really take advantage of having 1000s of traces for the same street (like in big cities with many mappers). The centre line is obvious, but there is a number of other things you could do as well, like indicating average/mean speed to help with maxspeed=* tagging and also where traffic lights exist. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bilingual rendering for Greece
Am 18.08.2010 10:31, schrieb Stephan Knauss: It's complicated because different languages take up different space on the map. So the placement of icons is not trivial. I did the multilingual overlays on the Toolserver. My first approach was to kick out all Symbolizers from the OSM Style that were no TextSymbolizers. This resulted in Text on the overlays overlapping POI-Icons. The second approach, that's the one that is currently online, renders all TextSymbolizer and all PointSymbolizer but with the PointSymbolizer set to opacity=0. Ævar had a great Idea for a third approach: Only objects that actually have a translation need to be in the language overlay -- all other objects like most streets can go into the base layer. That way the language overlay would become nearly empty on higher zoom levels. To do this, you need a fast way to find objects with translations. To be able to do this I comitted a patch to osm2pgsql that allows you to create hstore-columns for subtags, eg. a column name: that is null if no name:xx-tag is available and that contains a hstore with the translations otherwise. You can then create a conditional index like CREATE INDEX bla ON points (osm_id) WHERE NOT name: IS NULL; to have a fast lookup for translated items. I did a planet import with this column on the Toolserver and developed a style for it but never got around to complete this work. If you or some other wants to talk about this technical point, please come over to osm-dev. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
There is likely to be a considerable difference between the average speed and the maximum speed, particularly along streets that are badly congested at different times of day. The average speed is useful for routing decisions, but should be tagged separately from the maximum speed. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer From :mailto:deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com Date :Wed Aug 18 07:57:17 America/Chicago 2010 On 18 August 2010 22:51, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: For some time I have been thinking about making a tileserver / WMS with a visualisation of OSM GPS traces, but one where you can see how many traces overlap at a given point (so some kind of heat map thing). This would be used for tracing in JOSM instead of displaying all the traces in the same colour. This would really let you estimate where the centreline of a road / lane is and would let you really take advantage of having 1000s of traces for the same street (like in big cities with many mappers). The centre line is obvious, but there is a number of other things you could do as well, like indicating average/mean speed to help with maxspeed=* tagging and also where traffic lights exist. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
On 18 August 2010 14:57, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: The centre line is obvious The problem is when you really have a lot of traces in an area. Considering that people also upload non-car driving traces, and traces from broken GPSes or simply with really big horizontal error, at some point when you look at your city, every pixel on your screen is covered with a GPS point. You can only rely on the density of those points then. This is already the case around the biggest streets in big metropoleis. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] good gps trace recorder for Iphone?
Hi I wanted to know which you think is the best gps trace tool for iphone. I am currently travelling and would like to record some tracks in order to upload later to OSM. Thanks in advance, Ignacio. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Howto add simple push pin or marker to OpenStreetMap ?
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:04:51 +0200, Nic Roets wrote: We have something better: The routing demo allows manipulation of multiple markers. http://nroets.dev.openstreetmap.org/demo/? lat=47.43117lon=3.46952zoom=5layers=B000FTFTTmarkers=! 52.37101,4.90011!41.98003,2.82021v=motorcarfast=1 Whoow, this routing works perfectly and takes in account turn restrictions! Congrats! Who has implemented this? Hope devels who worked on this make this routing available to iPhone and Android app makers (for a fee, or some other arangement) so that we can finally have OSM based routing with turn restrictions! Hooray! -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Howto add simple push pin or marker to OpenStreetMap ?
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:13:40 +0200, jynus wrote: On the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Browsing#Adding_a_Marker Thank you all who replied, look like info is there on the Wiki, just not easily searchable. I added two wiki redirect pages, not sure if that is welcomed or not so please check them out and if this is a bad thing to do please recommend a better way. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Push_pin http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Marker Cheers, Valent. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] good gps trace recorder for Iphone?
I use MotionX GPS ($2.99) - a great UI plus track recorder - although it seems to restrict recorded data to X meters between points There might be a setting to change this, but I haven't found it. I would rather have all data so that I can get an idea of the error, etc. From: IgnacioZ Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 9:13 AM To: osm Subject: [OSM-talk] good gps trace recorder for Iphone? Hi I wanted to know which you think is the best gps trace tool for iphone. I am currently travelling and would like to record some tracks in order to upload later to OSM. Thanks in advance, Ignacio. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Seamarks
I found a wonderful motto at the top of the user page of one of the OSM system administrators, TomH: I don't give a flying monkey's for tag voting, automatic changebots, endless discussions, categories, or any of that crap, but prefer to get on and actually do stuff. This echoes my sentiments exactly! So, I will take my leave of this thread and spend more time writing code stylesheets for the OSeaM project. Bye! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
On 18 August 2010 23:08, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: There is likely to be a considerable difference between the average speed and the maximum speed, particularly along streets that are badly congested at different times of day. The average speed is useful for routing decisions, but should be tagged separately from the maximum speed. there is a reason I wrote it as 'average/mean'... I'm sure with enough GPS data, not just the location of points, and using some statistical methods to properly analysis it you could get some meaningful additional information out of the data. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Seamarks
I know that OSM is the place that 'You too can be an Anarchist' (just like everyone else...) ,but after watching discussions on roads, sea marks, addresses, etc. I feel like the OSM community is missing opportunities to leverage individual data contributions when they can't all be tied together in a coherent way. In the end, it would be nice if there were standards that most of the people would follow. I think that when most of us started mapping, we looked for the 'official' way to tag things and would have been happy to follow that standard. Some people with always say, 'F! you, you can't tell me how to map'. And they are right and have a proper place in OSM. But, I think that many people see the value of standards and see how it facilitates the creation of innovative and productive applications/products based on OSM data, and they would be willing to follow standards. David. On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Malcolm Herring malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com wrote: I found a wonderful motto at the top of the user page of one of the OSM system administrators, TomH: I don't give a flying monkey's for tag voting, automatic changebots, endless discussions, categories, or any of that crap, but prefer to get on and actually do stuff. This echoes my sentiments exactly! So, I will take my leave of this thread and spend more time writing code stylesheets for the OSeaM project. Bye! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Seamarks
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Malcolm Herring malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com wrote: I don't give a flying monkey's for tag voting, automatic changebots, endless discussions, categories, or any of that crap, but prefer to get on and actually do stuff. This echoes my sentiments exactly! So, I will take my leave of this thread and spend more time writing code stylesheets for the OSeaM project. This attitude led to two incompatible tagging schemas for the same things. It's simply irresponsible. So don't be surprised or offended if the consensus is found without you and you tags are replaced later by bots. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL, CTs and tracing GPS tracks
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 4:14 AM, TimSC mapp...@sheerman-chase.org.uk wrote: Assuming GPS tracks have some legal protection in some legal jurisdictions, does anyone care to take a stab at answering my original question? :) On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 1:51 PM, TimSC mapp...@sheerman-chase.org.uk wrote: Is tracing someones ODbL licensed GPS track a creation of a derived database or a produced work? Depends how you store the trace, doesn't it? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
Ha, projections! I have been too lazy to think about that so far, so right now this guy just has a cartesian grid going from -180 to 180 and -90 to 90. Maybe sometime I'll add different flattened projections, as well as sticking everything on a sphere. Sometime. On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 3:32 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/8/18 Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com: Interesting. In the past I've just used JOSM to download all the GPS traces in my area and then taken a screen shot. I did some visualisations in the past using gnuplot, but not caring about projections and the like (just used a cartesian grid). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Cory Lueninghoener Hacker, Photographer, Tinkerer http://www.wirelesscouch.net/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] good gps trace recorder for Iphone?
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:13:59 -0300, IgnacioZ zigna...@gmail.com wrote: Hi I wanted to know which you think is the best gps trace tool for iphone. I am currently travelling and would like to record some tracks in order to upload later to OSM. Thanks in advance, Ignacio. I know you only asked about iPhone, however, I thought I'd speak up for the Android camp as well. Vespuchi is a OSM editor for Android, but can't upload traces yet; don't know if it saves them anywhere either. Until then, I've found the GeoLogger(http://www.androidzoom.com/android_applications/tools/geologger_blnx.html) (it's searchable on the market for installing it) app to be a good one. Just open the app and press the start button to begin logging your route, press stop to end and save your data. Ability to change the log rate by time or distance. (Forgot to change my from address on my first post of this, moderators can just delete that one) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] good gps trace recorder for Iphone?
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:13:59 -0300, IgnacioZ wrote: Hi I wanted to know which you think is the best gps trace tool for iphone. I am currently travelling and would like to record some tracks in order to upload later to OSM. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IPhone#Tracking Try OSMTrack, really nice app and also MotionX GPS works great. Cheers, Valent. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL, CTs and tracing GPS tracks
On 18/08/10 15:13, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 1:51 PM, TimSC mapp...@sheerman-chase.org.uk wrote: Is tracing someones ODbL licensed GPS track a creation of a derived database or a produced work? Depends how you store the trace, doesn't it? How specifically does the interpretation of the ODbL depend on trace storage? TimSC ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
There is likely to be a considerable difference between the average speed and the maximum speed, particularly along streets that are badly congested at different times of day. The average speed is useful for routing decisions, but should be tagged separately from the maximum speed. Even average speed for routing purposes would be difficult to determine. How would you differentiate between car, motorcycle, bicycle, unicycle, horse or shank's pony*? David * Apologies: just remembered the international audience: this is an idiom meaning walking. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer From :mailto:deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com Date :Wed Aug 18 07:57:17 America/Chicago 2010 On 18 August 2010 22:51, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: For some time I have been thinking about making a tileserver / WMS with a visualisation of OSM GPS traces, but one where you can see how many traces overlap at a given point (so some kind of heat map thing). This would be used for tracing in JOSM instead of displaying all the traces in the same colour. This would really let you estimate where the centreline of a road / lane is and would let you really take advantage of having 1000s of traces for the same street (like in big cities with many mappers). The centre line is obvious, but there is a number of other things you could do as well, like indicating average/mean speed to help with maxspeed=* tagging and also where traffic lights exist. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/A-GPS-Trace-Visualizer-tp5435033p5436728.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL, CTs and tracing GPS tracks
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:14 AM, TimSC mapp...@sheerman-chase.org.uk wrote: On 18/08/10 15:13, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 1:51 PM, TimSC mapp...@sheerman-chase.org.uk wrote: Is tracing someones ODbL licensed GPS track a creation of a derived database or a produced work? Depends how you store the trace, doesn't it? How specifically does the interpretation of the ODbL depend on trace storage? Sounds like a good question to ask your lawyer. A produced work is a work (such as an image, audiovisual material, text, or sounds) resulting from using the whole or a Substantial part of the Contents (via a search or other query) from this Database, a Derivative Database, or this Database as part of a Collective Database. A Derivative Database Means a database based upon the Database, and includes any translation, adaptation, arrangement, modification, or any other alteration of the Database or of a Substantial part of the Contents. This includes, but is not limited to, Extracting or Re-utilising the whole or a Substantial part of the Contents in a new Database. If you store the trace as an image, then it's likely a produced work, and not a derivative database. If you store the trace as a database, then it's like a derivative database, and not a produced work. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 10:25 AM, davespod osmli...@dellams.fastmail.fm wrote: Even average speed for routing purposes would be difficult to determine. How would you differentiate between car, motorcycle, bicycle, unicycle, horse or shank's pony*? I personally tag all my trace uploads with mode of transportation (bicycle, car, walking) as well as the make and model of the GPS unit (garmin, edge 305) but yeah that probably can't be relied upon too much. Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Mapnik render queue stuck
I uploaded a new stretch of river bank last night (over 3k objects). This morning I checked the map and they had not been rendered. When I check /status on the tiles they claim that they are due to be rendered but they are obviously not actually in the render queue because the queue has hit 0 on the munin graphs several times since I uploaded. Also when I /dirty the tile it re-renders quickly. Is this a bug in renderd? I think I uploaded right around the time of the spike in the data import lag graph at 11:30 or so on the graph so that might be a factor: http://munin.openstreetmap.org/openstreetmap/yevaud.openstreetmap/replication_delay2.html I have already re-rendered some zoom levels but I'll leave it alone for now in case someone wants to take a look at it. Here is a link to the area where you can still see just the river itself with no river banks rendered and all the tiles supposedly in the queue. If you zoom out one level you will see what I have already re-rendered. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=39.18751lon=-96.25883zoom=16layers=M Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik render queue stuck
Am 18.08.2010 18:04, Toby Murray: I uploaded a new stretch of river bank last night (over 3k objects). This morning I checked the map and they had not been rendered. (...) Here is a link to the area where you can still see just the river itself with no river banks rendered and all the tiles supposedly in the queue. If you zoom out one level you will see what I have already re-rendered. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=39.18751lon=-96.25883zoom=16layers=M Toby Shows a nicely contoured riverbank to me. Browser caching issue? Right-click - Open image address... - Hit F5 to reload the image file Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
However, associatedStreet is maybe not the most obvious choice for joining, say, the segments of a motorway; at least I thought, associatedStreet would be used for associating single ways (street segments) with waypoints (symbolising addresses along the street segment) only. In addition (being, however, no native speaker of English), using associatedStreet for a collection of ways sounds strange to me. ... and then there is also the tag relatedStreet -- what's that? :-) On Wed, 2010-08-18 at 14:10 +0200, Pieren wrote: On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: and both relations area apparently ±equally used. True, it's not two but three relations proposals for the same purpose: collection, street and associatedStreet Althoughcollection is not limited to streets, it's also proposing street addresses members... Since associatedStreet was historicaly the first proposal including house numbers and is the most popular according to Tagwatch, I would suggest to deprecate the street proposal and remove streets from the collection proposal. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Ulf Mehlig ulf.meh...@gmx.net -- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] moderation going forward
The list has become sane again, and I've not had to use any Evil Powers. But, is this what you want going forward? My own inclination is that list moderators are elected per list for, say, a one year period. But I suspect that finding people who want to be a moderator might be hard. Thoughts? Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik render queue stuck
Nope. Someone must have done /dirty on it after I sent the email. Caching issues wouldn't explain why the /status for the tiles claimed they were due to be rendered - plus this was on two different computers, 6 hours apart. Toby On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de wrote: Am 18.08.2010 18:04, Toby Murray: I uploaded a new stretch of river bank last night (over 3k objects). This morning I checked the map and they had not been rendered. (...) Here is a link to the area where you can still see just the river itself with no river banks rendered and all the tiles supposedly in the queue. If you zoom out one level you will see what I have already re-rendered. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=39.18751lon=-96.25883zoom=16layers=M Toby Shows a nicely contoured riverbank to me. Browser caching issue? Right-click - Open image address... - Hit F5 to reload the image file Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
They both (street and collection) have problems. type=street is the best type. role=member (or no role) would be the best role. On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: Since associatedStreet was historicaly the first proposal including house numbers and is the most popular according to Tagwatch, I would suggest to deprecate the street proposal and remove streets from the collection proposal. According to the wiki, associatedStreet only allows one occurrence of the street role, and that member has to be a way. So should we allow associatedStreet include a street relation under the street role, or should we allow it to contain multiple ways? Given the name, probably the former. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
Also I think the notion of general inheritance should be abandoned. A tag should be on the street relation only if it applies to the street as a whole, and not to the individual ways which make up the relation. IOW, name is fine. oneway=yes, for a dual carriageway, wouldn't be (even though the individual ways are all oneway, the street is not). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
Ugh, another point: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories Putting all the elements which have addresses referencing a street into a relation seems to me to violate that principle. What's needed is a way to put a reference to the street into the way for the building, not a way to put a reference to the building into the way for the street. One possibility is to just use addr:street=way:37863 or addr:street=relation:28917. But as there would be no maintenance of referential integrity, that wouldn't be without its dangers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik render queue stuck
On 19 August 2010 02:45, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Nope. Someone must have done /dirty on it after I sent the email. Caching issues wouldn't explain why the /status for the tiles claimed they were due to be rendered - plus this was on two different computers, 6 hours apart. I mentioned an issue with mod_tile no longer expiring tiles a few weeks ago, but no one else confirmed there was a problem so I didn't bother to file a bug about it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
Ulf Mehlig wrote: ... and then there is also the tag relatedStreet -- what's that? :-) relatedStreet was the term used by the AddrInterpolation JOSM-plugin before the associatedStreet proposal was created. It is equivalent to associatedStreet and now obsolete. Sebastian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: According to the wiki, associatedStreet only allows one occurrence of the street role, Which is the main difference with the proposal 'street'. But this can be changed. It doesn't disturb existing relations and again, we could deprecate the relation 'street' (the other member is 'everything that belongs to a street' which sounds like the dirty is_in). and that member has to be a way. So should we allow associatedStreet include a street relation under the street role, or should we allow it to contain multiple ways? Given the name, probably the former. because the name is singular ? is it a good reason to use relations of relations when we know how difficult it is to edit ? Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: According to the wiki, associatedStreet only allows one occurrence of the street role, Which is the main difference with the proposal 'street'. But this can be changed. But changing it is probably a bad idea. Do we really want a relation with 500 ways representing the street and 50,000 nodes representing the buildings? After rereading http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories I'm going to conclude that the proper place to put address information is in the building data, not in the street data, and that associatedStreet should therefore be deprecated. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: But changing it is probably a bad idea. Do we really want a relation with 500 ways representing the street and 50,000 nodes representing the buildings? wow, 500 ways and 50,000 addresses just for one street ! Show me the map ! After rereading http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories I'm going to conclude that the proper place to put address information is in the building data, not in the street data, and that associatedStreet should therefore be deprecated. And if you read more on the wiki, you will discover that the Karlsruhe schema is allowing both. Here we speak only about the contributors who selected the solution with a relation. Nobody force you to use it but let others clean-up the relations proposals. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: But changing it is probably a bad idea. Do we really want a relation with 500 ways representing the street and 50,000 nodes representing the buildings? wow, 500 ways and 50,000 addresses just for one street ! Show me the map ! What would you say is the maximum number of ways/addresses for one street? After rereading http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories I'm going to conclude that the proper place to put address information is in the building data, not in the street data, and that associatedStreet should therefore be deprecated. And if you read more on the wiki, you will discover that the Karlsruhe schema is allowing both. I've read that. And what I'm saying is that it should only allow one. Grouping relations really only make sense if the grouping is neither geographical (as discussed above) nor exclusive (like the HSBC example - the cash machine is unlikely to be operated by two different institutions at the same time). The associatedStreet relation is exclusive. There is only one associated street for any address. The street relation, on the other hand, is not exclusive. There are ways (e.g. in intersections) which are part of multiple streets. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] good gps trace recorder for Iphone?
Ok thank you all. I will try OSMTrack since it uploads directly to OSM. Cheers, Ignacio. On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Valent Turkovic valent.turko...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:13:59 -0300, IgnacioZ wrote: Hi I wanted to know which you think is the best gps trace tool for iphone. I am currently travelling and would like to record some tracks in order to upload later to OSM. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IPhone#Tracking Try OSMTrack, really nice app and also MotionX GPS works great. Cheers, Valent. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Howto add simple push pin or marker to OpenStreetMap ?
On 17.08.2010 15:52, Valent Turkovic wrote: I have seen that some people put simple pushpins on osm maps. Can't find on WIKI or anywhere how to do that so please point me in the right direction. In addition to the mlat/mlon method mentioned previously, I've listed some alternative tools for creating markers in the reply to this question on OSM Help: http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/25/how-do-i-add-a-marker-to-a-map Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
At 2010-08-18 10:39, Pieren wrote: On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: But changing it is probably a bad idea. Do we really want a relation with 500 ways representing the street and 50,000 nodes representing the buildings? wow, 500 ways and 50,000 addresses just for one street ! Show me the map ! Not unreasonable, FWIW. CA-138 in CA is a ~170 km (~106 mi) primary surface road through mostly rural and some suburban area. It currently has 48 ways, but I'm working on processing a survey I did, which will probably break it into many pieces because of turn restrictions, speed/weight limits, etc. If addressing were added to it, I'd guess 10-200 address points per mile (you do the math). Foothill Blvd (CA-66) is a little shorter, but through well-developed areas with many more breaks in jurisdiction (and therefore restriction changes), not to mention far denser in terms of address points. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Toby Murray wrote: I personally tag all my trace uploads with mode of transportation (bicycle, car, walking) as well as the make and model of the GPS unit (garmin, edge 305) but yeah that probably can't be relied upon too much. I don't break the trace at the point at which I get out of the car or off the bike and walk, so I have mixed tracks almost always. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: After rereading http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories I'm going to conclude that the proper place to put address information is in the building data, not in the street data, and that associatedStreet should therefore be deprecated. I'm not sure... for me adresss information are connected to street not building, let me explain. An adress give you the opportunity to find you way to where you want to go (8th Adam Street). Connecting the address to the building let you know where is the building not from where to go there ; some situation are complex and you don't know from what street you can go to this particular building. Connecting to the street can make routing software easy to build the route to go from your location to the adress and it will go the right route (because the adress is on th street) and avoid mistake by routing you the the back of the building (you then have to take other streets to go to the entrance). Of cours connecting to the street dont indicate the building exactly. For me connecting the the street is better for routing and postal adress (find the postbox); connecting to building is more precise in therm of location but less useful... -- Pierre-Alain Dorange ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Toby Murray wrote: I personally tag all my trace uploads with mode of transportation (bicycle, car, walking) as well as the make and model of the GPS unit (garmin, edge 305) but yeah that probably can't be relied upon too much. I don't break the trace at the point at which I get out of the car or off the bike and walk, so I have mixed tracks almost always. I had not really considered mixed traces. My workflow typically results in pretty atomic traces especially when it comes to transport mode but yeah I can see your case being another complication in trying to use traces to derive avg speeds. Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] moderation going forward
We haven't had any problems before the controversy over licences, and I expect that once these troubles are resolved one way or another, there won't be further eruptions. So I'd suggest not setting up any elaborate moderation mechanism until it is proved to be necessary. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
On Wednesday 18 August 2010 19:25:22 Pieren wrote: On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: According to the wiki, associatedStreet only allows one occurrence of the street role, Which is the main difference with the proposal 'street'. But this can be changed. We've had about this same discussion on the Dutch forum not too long ago. There was a nation wide building import. The JOSM terracer-plugin is now used to add adresses to these. So there are a lot of associatedStreet relations created. The plugin allows you to put more than one way into an associatedStreet relation. Our conclusion was also that the requirement of only one way in an associatedStreet relation is not practically maintainable. If someone splits a way that just happens to be part of an associatedStreet relation, then he isn't going to move one part of the way and some of the adresses to a new relation, if he is just adding speed limits or routes or -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
On 19 August 2010 07:26, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: I had not really considered mixed traces. My workflow typically results in pretty atomic traces especially when it comes to transport mode but yeah I can see your case being another complication in trying to use traces to derive avg speeds. walking ~= 5km/hr cycling ~=20-40km/hr cars ~= 100km/hr It might be an issue for areas with reduced speed limits, but realistically I don't see this as such an issue as everyone is making it out to be, as long as you have suitable GPS information like timestamps to calculate speed. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer
Hi All, Lukas Kabrt has been looking at something like this for his Google Summer of Code Project - might be worth looking at what he has done at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Routing/Travel_Time_Analysis. Graham. On 18 August 2010 23:02, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 August 2010 07:26, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: I had not really considered mixed traces. My workflow typically results in pretty atomic traces especially when it comes to transport mode but yeah I can see your case being another complication in trying to use traces to derive avg speeds. walking ~= 5km/hr cycling ~=20-40km/hr cars ~= 100km/hr It might be an issue for areas with reduced speed limits, but realistically I don't see this as such an issue as everyone is making it out to be, as long as you have suitable GPS information like timestamps to calculate speed. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Dr. Graham Jones Hartlepool, UK email: grahamjones...@gmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik render queue stuck
On 18-08-2010 19:22, John Smith wrote: On 19 August 2010 02:45, Toby Murraytoby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Nope. Someone must have done /dirty on it after I sent the email. Caching issues wouldn't explain why the /status for the tiles claimed they were due to be rendered - plus this was on two different computers, 6 hours apart. I mentioned an issue with mod_tile no longer expiring tiles a few weeks ago, but no one else confirmed there was a problem so I didn't bother to file a bug about it. I've had the same suspicion. I've asked around on IRC without response and had come to the conclusion that I must be going mad, because surely such a thing would be noticed instantly. Maybe not? I've several times uploaded changes and not seen them online until many hours later (with vigorous reloading, different browsers etc). -- Jonas Häggqvist rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
On 18.08.2010 19:21, Anthony wrote: put a reference to the street into the way for the building, not a way to put a reference to the building into the way for the street. One possibility is to just use addr:street=way:37863 or addr:street=relation:28917. But as there would be no maintenance of referential integrity, that wouldn't be without its dangers. Isn't addr:street=Main Street enough? pro's: - to search for a house, only searching through local tags (of nodes or areas describing buildings/housenumbers) is enough. - to search for the associated street of the house process a nearby-search for the street-name, as the same streetname usually doesn't appear twice in a city - maintaining is easy as changing ways for the street don't care. Navigation systems should IMHO do some preprocessing to the data - means e.g. connecting houses to nodes at the street for routing. con's: references in attributes are error prone, I fear. 1) some people reuse old ways when editing (should not be, but is often the case) 2) deletions, edits and additions would break the relation, if not maintained carefully, what's a lot of work. So I prefer to add the street name to the street (as name) and addr:street to the building/shop etc. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik render queue stuck
2010/8/19 Jonas Häggqvist ras...@rasher.dk: I've had the same suspicion. I've asked around on IRC without response and had come to the conclusion that I must be going mad, because surely such a thing would be noticed instantly. Maybe not? Which is why I didn't file a bug after no one else said anything, I thought it must have been only me having/noticing the issue. Forcing tiles to regenerate via /dirty works, but using render_expired to tell renderd to expire tiles doesn't seem to have an effect any more. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
When you say process a nearby-search for the street name, how broadly is nearby interpreted? Nashville, TN, USA, where I live, has a number of instances of streets that were split by later construction. For example, McGavock Pike extends both north and south of the airport; the airport construction replaced the middle portion of the street, resulting in a gap of about three miles between the two sections. Also, since the city's expansion caused it to swallow up a number of smaller communities, there are some duplicate street names that have to be distinguished between by the postal code (referred to as the Zip Code). I also know of at least one case where a street number occurs more than once on the same long street, but with different postal codes and, originally, different town names (the road in question was originally the highway connecting the two small towns). ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use? From :mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de Date :Wed Aug 18 17:36:58 America/Chicago 2010 On 18.08.2010 19:21, Anthony wrote: put a reference to the street into the way for the building, not a way to put a reference to the building into the way for the street. One possibility is to just use addr:street=way:37863 or addr:street=relation:28917. But as there would be no maintenance of referential integrity, that wouldn't be without its dangers. Isn't addr:street=Main Street enough? pro's: - to search for a house, only searching through local tags (of nodes or areas describing buildings/housenumbers) is enough. - to search for the associated street of the house process a nearby-search for the street-name, as the same streetname usually doesn't appear twice in a city - maintaining is easy as changing ways for the street don't care. Navigation systems should IMHO do some preprocessing to the data - means e.g. connecting houses to nodes at the street for routing. con's: references in attributes are error prone, I fear. 1) some people reuse old ways when editing (should not be, but is often the case) 2) deletions, edits and additions would break the relation, if not maintained carefully, what's a lot of work. So I prefer to add the street name to the street (as name) and addr:street to the building/shop etc. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] prettymaps (based in part on OSM data)
An interesting variant on rendering maps: http://prettymaps.stamen.com/ -- prettymaps is an experimental map from Stamen Design. It is an interactive map composed of multiple freely available, community-generated data sources: * All the Flickr shapefiles rendered as a semi-transparent white ground on top of which all the other layers are displayed. * Urban areas from Natural Earth both as a standalone layer and combined with Flickr shapefiles for cities and neighbourhoods. * Road, highway and path data collected by the OpenStreetMap (OSM) project. In all there are four different raster layers and six data layers (that mean all the map data is sent in its raw form and rendered as visual elements by the browser) that may be visible depending on the bounding box and zoom level of the map. -- Cheers, Simon. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik render queue stuck
On Thu, 2010-08-19 at 08:51 +1000, John Smith wrote: 2010/8/19 Jonas Häggqvist ras...@rasher.dk: I've had the same suspicion. I've asked around on IRC without response and had come to the conclusion that I must be going mad, because surely such a thing would be noticed instantly. Maybe not? Which is why I didn't file a bug after no one else said anything, I thought it must have been only me having/noticing the issue. Forcing tiles to regenerate via /dirty works, but using render_expired to tell renderd to expire tiles doesn't seem to have an effect any more. The automated expiry mechanism is working. There would be many more complaints if it was completely broken. If you believe this is not the case then we need links to some specific nodes or ways which you believe should have been rendered. Then we someone can investigate further if there is a reason why this data is not appearing. Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: On 18.08.2010 19:21, Anthony wrote: put a reference to the street into the way for the building, not a way to put a reference to the building into the way for the street. One possibility is to just use addr:street=way:37863 or addr:street=relation:28917. But as there would be no maintenance of referential integrity, that wouldn't be without its dangers. Isn't addr:street=Main Street enough? It'd be nice to have an easy way to link the address to the street. Navigation systems should IMHO do some preprocessing to the data - means e.g. connecting houses to nodes at the street for routing. I disagree. The street address isn't always the same as the street used for access. references in attributes are error prone, I fear. 1) some people reuse old ways when editing (should not be, but is often the case) 2) deletions, edits and additions would break the relation, if not maintained carefully, what's a lot of work. Yes, hence my comment about referential integrity. addr:streetref=way:87323 would be a hack. You'd really want something built into the API for it to work right. So I prefer to add the street name to the street (as name) and addr:street to the building/shop etc. I think for now that's probably the best solution. And just hope there aren't too many instances of Main Street on the addr vs. Main St on the way. And do some sort of nearby search. Unfortunately, that means I can't do a simple SQL query to find out what street has the most addresses on it in the OSM database. OTOH, I could probably come up with a fairly simple SQL query to answer How many addresses are there on Broad Street in Philadelphia, especially if I'm willing to approximate Philadelphia as a rectangle. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Isn't addr:street=Main Street enough? It'd be nice to have an easy way to link the address to the street. Oh yeah, another advantage (though this is more useful for street names than it is for addresses) is that you can add extra details to the street name which would be tedious to repeat over and over again. For instance, you could add a pronunciation transcription so that text-to-speech apps can read the name of the street. It'd be much better to link to a place with the name of the street and the pronunciation transcription than it would be to copy the pronunciation transcription to every instance of the street name. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik render queue stuck
On 19 August 2010 09:40, Jon Burgess jburgess...@gmail.com wrote: The automated expiry mechanism is working. There would be many more complaints if it was completely broken. If you believe this is not the case then we need links to some specific nodes or ways which you believe should have been rendered. Then we someone can investigate further if there is a reason why this data is not appearing. As Jonas pointed out, view the tiles in the are you want to make some changes, preferably an area that is unlikely to be touched or messed with by anyone else, make the changes and see if the tiles are refreshed in a reasonable time period. I've noticed this on and off for a month or so, but I usually end up forcing a refresh if I care enough to see things updated. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik render queue stuck
Yeah, it definitely doesn't happen all the time. I would say most of my edits work fine and cause a render as anticipated. But there is some set of circumstances that causes something to hiccup. If I see it again I will not touch it and file a bug instead of posting to the mailing list where people can /dirty it. I don't have to worry much about others randomly touching my area here in the middle of Kansas :) Would this go under mapnik or website or something else? Toby On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 7:40 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 August 2010 09:40, Jon Burgess jburgess...@gmail.com wrote: The automated expiry mechanism is working. There would be many more complaints if it was completely broken. If you believe this is not the case then we need links to some specific nodes or ways which you believe should have been rendered. Then we someone can investigate further if there is a reason why this data is not appearing. As Jonas pointed out, view the tiles in the are you want to make some changes, preferably an area that is unlikely to be touched or messed with by anyone else, make the changes and see if the tiles are refreshed in a reasonable time period. I've noticed this on and off for a month or so, but I usually end up forcing a refresh if I care enough to see things updated. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] moderation going forward
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 2:34 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: The list has become sane again, and I've not had to use any Evil Powers. But, is this what you want going forward? My own inclination is that list moderators are elected per list for, say, a one year period. But I suspect that finding people who want to be a moderator might be hard. Thoughts? Hand pick 5-10 people you trust. Announce them. Remove anyone that there are loud objections to. Don't bother with elections, it's not important enough for the bureaucratic overhead. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] prettymaps (based in part on OSM data)
Very cool! It gave me some insight into the area's in my part of the world and it looks great. Well done. John si...@mungewell.org wrote: An interesting variant on rendering maps: http://prettymaps.stamen.com/ snip... Cheers, Simon. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Howto add simple push pin or marker to OpenStreetMap ?
If you want more than one push-pin marker, you can use open.mapquest.co.uk, which uses OSM map data. Use the MyMaps function, which allows you to create multiple maps each with multiple markers. I haven't used it a lot, but I tried it once and it worked fine for me. - Alan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Beaches at lower zoom levels
Beaches are missing at zoom=12 in Mapnik and zoom=13 in Osmarender, either that or the sea is rendered over them. Is this by design or a bug? For example, here's my hometown: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.6457lon=-2.999zoom=13 Moving the coastline seems excessive, is there a way around this? Cheers Gaz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Beaches at lower zoom levels
At 2010-08-18 21:38, Gaz Davidson wrote: Beaches are missing at zoom=12 in Mapnik and zoom=13 in Osmarender, either that or the sea is rendered over them. Is this by design or a bug? For example, here's my hometown: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.6457lon=-2.999zoom=13 Moving the coastline seems excessive, is there a way around this? Are coastlines supposed to be on the low-tide position, high-tide position, or middle of the beach? I've been gluing the low-tide side of beaches to coastline on the few I've edited, since their position suggested that was the intent. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] JOSM Remote plug-in
Lennard, Dat van inloggen via OAuth ga ik eens uitproberen. Ik weet niet hoe dat gaat, maar daar zal ik wel uitkomen. Van die USB stick vind ik een minder goed idee omdat dit zou impliceren dat ik altijd die stick bij me heb en deze ook nooit kwijt zou raken. Dat is een illusie. :( Is het technisch mogelijk om bepaalde basis plugins in te bouwen in de downloadable JOSM versie? --- Robert Citeren Lennard l...@xs4all.nl: On 17-8-2010 21:48, rob...@elsenaar.info wrote: een internet cafe, moet vervuilen met een/meer .jar bestanden. Ik zou graag willen zien dat ook dat niet meer lokaal neergezet hoeft te woren. Je kunt JOSM compleet, inclusief JRE en al jouw eigen plugins en settings, vanaf een USB-stick draaien. Zo neem je altijd je eigen omgeving mee, op welke PC in welk internetcafe je ook gaat zitten. Als je dan ook nog zorgt dat je JOSM laat inloggen via OAuth, loop je ook een stuk minder risico dat iemand er met je wachtwoord van OSM vandoor gaat. -- Lennard ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
[OSM-talk-nl] electrisch parkeren
Hallo allemaal, In Amsterdam verschijnen parkeerplaatsen die zijn gereserveerd voor electrische auto's. Ik heb er net een getagd met amenity=parking,electrified=yes[1]. Maar dat moet beter kunnen. Ideeen? Martijn [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/5524514 -- Martijn van Exel Senior Researcher / Software Engineer - Geodan SR President Kennedylaan 1 1079 MB Amsterdam (NL) - Tel: +31 (0)20 - 5711 318 Fax: +31 (0)20 - 5711 333 - E-mail: mart...@geodan.nl Website: www.geodan.nl KvK-nummer: 33 247475 Disclaimer: www.geodan.nl/disclaimer - ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] electrisch parkeren
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:46:11 +0200, Martijn van Exel mart...@geodan.nl wrote: In Amsterdam verschijnen parkeerplaatsen die zijn gereserveerd voor electrische auto's. Ik heb er net een getagd met amenity=parking,electrified=yes[1]. Maar dat moet beter kunnen. Ideeen? Is het echt alleen voor elektrische auto's? Dan een access=designated erbij? Toepasselijke wikipagina's: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/More_Parking_Spaces Maarten ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] electrisch parkeren
Ja, het is alleen voor electrisch! Hier is er één: http://nl.locr.com/photo-the-netherlands-noord-holland-amsteldijk-52-14073184 martijn van exel +++ m...@rtijn.org laziness - impatience - hubris http://schaaltreinen.nl/ twitter / skype: mvexel flickr: rhodes 2010/8/18 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:46:11 +0200, Martijn van Exel mart...@geodan.nl wrote: In Amsterdam verschijnen parkeerplaatsen die zijn gereserveerd voor electrische auto's. Ik heb er net een getagd met amenity=parking,electrified=yes[1]. Maar dat moet beter kunnen. Ideeen? Is het echt alleen voor elektrische auto's? Dan een access=designated erbij? Toepasselijke wikipagina's: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/More_Parking_Spaces Maarten ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] electrisch parkeren
Bedoel je nou de parkeerplaatsen met oplaadstations of een reguliere parkeerplaats waar je alleen met een electrische auto mag staan? Dat zou uit de tag direct duidelijk moet worden. parking=electric_car ? Gr, Floris Martijn van Exel wrote: Ja, het is alleen voor electrisch! Hier is er één: http://nl.locr.com/photo-the-netherlands-noord-holland-amsteldijk-52-14073184 martijn van exel +++ m...@rtijn.org laziness - impatience - hubris http://schaaltreinen.nl/ twitter / skype: mvexel flickr: rhodes 2010/8/18 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:46:11 +0200, Martijn van Exel mart...@geodan.nl wrote: In Amsterdam verschijnen parkeerplaatsen die zijn gereserveerd voor electrische auto's. Ik heb er net een getagd met amenity=parking,electrified=yes[1]. Maar dat moet beter kunnen. Ideeen? Is het echt alleen voor elektrische auto's? Dan een access=designated erbij? Toepasselijke wikipagina's: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/More_Parking_Spaces Maarten ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] electrisch parkeren
hehe cool, Voor dat ding heb ik firmware geschreven ;) ik tag de paaltjes als amenity=fuel fuel:electricity=yes Grtz Rob Op 18 augustus 2010 11:16 heeft Floris Looijesteijn o...@floris.nu het volgende geschreven: Bedoel je nou de parkeerplaatsen met oplaadstations of een reguliere parkeerplaats waar je alleen met een electrische auto mag staan? Dat zou uit de tag direct duidelijk moet worden. parking=electric_car ? Gr, Floris Martijn van Exel wrote: Ja, het is alleen voor electrisch! Hier is er één: http://nl.locr.com/photo-the-netherlands-noord-holland-amsteldijk-52-14073184 martijn van exel +++ m...@rtijn.org laziness - impatience - hubris http://schaaltreinen.nl/ twitter / skype: mvexel flickr: rhodes 2010/8/18 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:46:11 +0200, Martijn van Exel mart...@geodan.nl wrote: In Amsterdam verschijnen parkeerplaatsen die zijn gereserveerd voor electrische auto's. Ik heb er net een getagd met amenity=parking,electrified=yes[1]. Maar dat moet beter kunnen. Ideeen? Is het echt alleen voor elektrische auto's? Dan een access=designated erbij? Toepasselijke wikipagina's: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/More_Parking_Spaces Maarten ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] electrisch parkeren
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Op 18-08-10 11:41, Rob schreef: Voor dat ding heb ik firmware geschreven ;) Patser ;) Zou je ook niet durven zeggen als die paaltjes straks ook vastlopen ;) Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAkxrq50ACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn0SvgCfY/SEttIP2wRa8xYCPQPp4Za6 g5IAmQHwf0p0jGqI7gxNNcd2n0suV6EI =oubJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] electrisch parkeren
Op 18 augustus 2010 11:45 heeft Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de het volgende geschreven: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Op 18-08-10 11:41, Rob schreef: Voor dat ding heb ik firmware geschreven ;) Patser ;) Zou je ook niet durven zeggen als die paaltjes straks ook vastlopen ;) hehe, zat erop te wachten ;) ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
[OSM-talk-nl] 3dShapes landuse + water import Midden Nederland
Hoi Lijst, Sorry voor de crosspost, maar niet iedereen zit op het OSM forum, dus hoop ik zo een breder publiek te bereiken. Het kan je haast niet ontgaan zijn dat momenteel Nederland wordt verrijkt met bijzonder mooie landuse en water data (zgn. '3dShapes' dataset). Ik heb zojuist de import in de omgeving van Utrecht afgerond. Op veler verzoek ga ik binnenkort beginnen met de import van 3dShapes in Midden Nederland. Ofwel, het gapende gat tussen de Veluwe en de Utrechtse Heuvelrug wordt aangevuld. Dus, de volgende ebieden worden binnenkort aangevuld: * Westelijke Veluwerand (Harderwijk, Putten, Ede) * Gelderse Vallei / Eemvallei (Barneveld, Veenendaal, Nijkerk) * Rivierengebied (Tiel, Gorinchem) * Zuidelijk Flevoland (Almere) * Noordelijk deel van 't Gooi (Weesp, Bussum, Huizen) Hiermee ontstaat een mooi aangesloten geheel van 3dShapes import in Midden en Oost Nederland, vandaar de ietwat rare vorm. Zoals gebruikelijk zal ik er ook voor zorgen dat de data netjes wordt geïntegreerd in de bestaande data. Dus ik ga geen dubbele nodes veroorzaken. Ook zal ik redundante (AND) shapes verwijderen (alleen water, bos, park, begraafplaats), maar namen en andere informatie zal ik óf meenemen, óf ik zal de shape omtaggen naar toponym=xxx (voor naamsaanduiding van een gebied). Ook probeer ik heidevelden, zandverstuivingen, e.d. mee te nemen (o.b.v. bestaande data en CLC2000 landuse data). Uiteraard is lokale kennis het beste, dus schroom vooral niet om shapes om te taggen die jouw inziens verkeerd zijn aangegeven. Laat, als het kan, op het OSM forum weten op welke gebieden ik moet letten tijdens de import. Zijn er bijv. gebieden die hermetisch afgesloten moeten worden voor 3dShapes? Of zijn er gebieden waar alleen shapes geïmporteerd moeten worden en je zelf de opschoning voor je rekening wilt nemen? Link: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=8830 . Hier is ook een kaartje te vinden om welk gebied het gaat. Groeten, Frank ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [Talk-de] Flächen und Ways
Am Dienstag, 17. August 2010 15:59 schrieb Garry [garr...@gmx.de] Am 16.08.2010 15:21, schrieb Willi: Die Datenbank und den Server möchte ich gerne sehen, der eine Weltkarte mit allen Details aller Objekte verarbeiten kann und die Menschen, die all dies eingeben können und wollen. Da es dies weder heute noch in der Zukunft geben wird werden bereits bei Erfassung und Eingabe Objekte ... Am Dienstag, 17. August 2010 15:59 schrieb Garry [garr...@gmx.de] Niemand braucht einen Computer mit mehr als 640(?)kByte Speicher... Schon mal gehört? Sicher kenne ich den Satz. Ich arbeite schon über 35 Jahre mit Computern und habe mit 32 KByte Kernspeicher angefangen und habe diesen selbst repariert. Deshalb weiß ich auch, dass die richtige Schreibweise Kbyte und nicht kByte ist ;). Dein Zitat passt nicht zu meiner Aussage, da ich braucht weder gemeint noch geschrieben habe sondern geben wird. Am Dienstag, 17. August 2010 15:59 schrieb Garry [garr...@gmx.de] Die Computertechnick hat bisher stets mit den wachsenden Anforderungen der Datenbedürfnisse schritt gehalten. Warum sollte sich das jetzt plötzlich ändern? Das stimmt nicht für mich und viele, die ich kennen gelernt habe. Meines Erachtens ist es eher anders rum. Der (anspruchsvolle) Nutzer und Programmierer nutzt die ihm zur Verfügung stehenden Mittel aus, jemand sagte mal ... ist wie ein ideales Gas, das jedes ihm zur Verfügung stehende Vakuum ausfüllt. Am Dienstag, 17. August 2010 15:59 schrieb Garry [garr...@gmx.de] Für eine (Strassen)Navianwendung ist es relativ egal ob eine einzelne Strasse in der Landschaft 100m weiter links oder rechts liegt, Die Lage von Gewässer interessiert es schon gar nicht solange es die Strasse sieht. ... Aber etwas dass nicht eingetragen ist kann man nicht nutzen. Dem stimme ich zu. Eine ungenau eingetragene Straße ist besser als eine nicht eingetragene. Dies gilt auch für andere Objekte. Meine Aussage war jedoch nur zu Brücken und Tunnel wenn sich Straße und Fluss kreuzen. Und da kann sowohl Mensch als auch Routing die eingezeichnete Straße nutzen und den Fluss queren ohne zu wissen ob da nun ein Tunnel oder eine Brücke ist. Und in diesem Fall halte ich es für besser, nichts einzutragen wenn ich weder weiß ob da Tunnel oder Brücke ist und die genaue Lage schon gar nicht kenne. Zum Beispiel wenn ich nach Yahoo oder LandSat kartiere und noch nie vor Ort war. Dort wo ich kartiere gibt es nicht nur viele Flüsse sondern man man muss meist vor Ort genau nachsehen ob da Brücke oder Tunnel ist. Wenn dann noch nichts eingetragen ist macht sich jemand eher diese Mühe als eine bereits eingetragene Brücke zu überprüfen. Willi ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Proposal: Verleih von xy
Am Mittwoch 18 August 2010, 08:12:50 schrieb Guenther Meyer: waehrend man aus einem rental=xyz sofort rausziehen kann, dass es da xyz zu mieten gibt, auch wenn xyz der Software gar nicht bekannt ist Ich stimme dir zu, dass amenity=* ziemlich überfrachtet ist und begrüße auch neue Kategorien für eindeutige Dinge. Aber der Vorteil dieser Information wie du ihn hier nennst ist eher minimal. Ich geh selten los uns sage mir: Ich will jetzt was mieten. Egal was, aber mieten! Weil ob da rental=car oder rental=boat oder rental=women steht, macht dann doch einen gewissen Unterschied. Lieber kauf ich mir Dinge die ich dringend brauche und (dort) nicht mieten kann als dass ich mir aus Verlegenheit irgendwas anderes miete. :) Gruß, Bernd -- Die Grippe kommt auf allen Viren signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Proposal: Verleih von xy
Am Dienstag 17 August 2010, 13:18:28 schrieb Falk Zscheile: Am 17. August 2010 12:55 schrieb Jonas Stein n...@jonasstein.de: Hi Andreas, Warum also sollte man ohne Not bestehende, funktionierende Tags (amenity=bicycle_rental, amenity=car_rental) über'n Haufen schmeißen? Uebern Haufen geschmissen werden die ja nicht gleich. Das rental soll ja voll kompatibel mit den bestehenden sein. Vieles ist in der Entwicklung und manche Tag-Schemata wurden schon mit der Zeit angepasst, weil man bessere Methoden fand. Genau, aber in diesem Fall ist die Methode eben (wie bereits ausgeführt) nicht besser, weil sie das taggen nicht erleichtert. Wieso? Eine Autovermietung ist mit einer Schlittenvermietung nicht vergleichbar. Daher ist es sinnlos alle unter einem gemeinsamen Tag zusammenzufassen. Sinn macht das beispielsweise bei natural=wetland/wetland=*, weil nicht jeder Sumpf, Moor, Salzwiesen etc. unterscheiden kann. Die wichtige gemeinsame Information ist: dort bekommt man nasse Füße Hier ist eine Differenzierung mit Sub-Tags also sehr sinnvoll. Das jemand eine Autovermietung von einem Skiverleih nicht unterscheiden kann ist eher unwahrscheinlich. Ein Sportgeschaeft ist mit einem Computerladen nicht vergleichbar. Daher is es sinnlos alle unter einem gemeinsamen Tag zusammenzufassen. Sinn macht das beispielsweise bei highway=secondary/tertiary, weil nicht jeder verschieden wichtige Strassen unterscheiden kann.. Die wichtige gemeinsame Information ist: dort ist eine Strasse. hier ist eine Differenzierung mit Sub-Tags also sehr sinnvoll. Die gemeinsame Oberinformation hier kann man etwas mieten ist zudem völlig wertlos ...# ist sie nicht. Für so etwas gibt es fixme=* nein. Eine Umstellung bloß um weniger verschiedene Werte für amenity zu erhalten, ist nicht gerechtfertigt, da es an einem praktischen Nutzen fehlt (reine Formsache). -1 Ich akzeptiere Tags auch wenn sie keinen Proposalprozess durchlaufen haben +1 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Proposal: Verleih von xy
Moin! Am 17.08.2010 12:55, schrieb Jonas Stein: Hi Andreas, Warum also sollte man ohne Not bestehende, funktionierende Tags (amenity=bicycle_rental, amenity=car_rental) über'n Haufen schmeißen? Ich stimme Andreas zu. Für alle alle Arten von Fahrzeugen passt rental nicht so recht. Autovermietungen gehören inhaltlich eher in eine Gruppe mit Taxen als mit Kostümverleih, Bootsvermietungen eher zum Wassersport als zu Werkzeugverleih, Flugzeugcharter eher zu Flughafeneinrichtungen als zum Videoverleih. In OSM werden Fahrzeuge im Allgemeinen anders behandelt als andere Gegenstände. Uebern Haufen geschmissen werden die ja nicht gleich. Das rental soll ja voll kompatibel mit den bestehenden sein. Naja, eine Autovermietung, die als rental eingegeben wird, kann von allen heute bestehenden Renderern und Applikationen nicht dargestellt oder gefunden werden. kompatibel ist das nicht. Welche Anwendungen würden von einer Umstellung profitieren, weil sie alle rental-Objekte einheitlich behandeln können? Man muss auch bedenken, dass wir bis jetzt nur 5 Verleih-Tags haben. Davon einige die noch im 'vote' Stadium sind. Verleihbare Dinge gibts aber zu tausend. Für alle Gegenstände außer Fahrzeugen finde ich rental gut. Viele Grüße, Stephan ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Garmin 60 CSx via USB-Kabel an JOSM
Am 18.08.2010 07:23, schrieb Michael Buege: Ist das wirklich so weit jenseits deiner Vorstellungskraft? Seit ein paar Wochen experimentiere ich jetzt mit Navit rum. Ich besitze weder eine Bluetootmaus noch ein neuzeitliches Telefon. Nur das 60CSx, eine externe Antenne dazu und ein Netbook. Also nehme ich das, was ich habe. Dann lasse doch das Netbook weg und navigiere mit dem 60CSx allein, das kann der! Gleiches gilt für's Trackloggen: Das 60CSx speichert beliebige Trackmengen auf die Speicherkarte runter, da muss mann allenfalls zum Datentransfer den GPSR mit einem Rechner verbinden. Und dafür braucht's keinen Treiber unter keinem mir bekannten OS, da es sich einfach um USB-MassStorage handelt. -jha- ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel: freiwillige Zustimmung ab jetzt moeglich
Am 13.08.2010 15:59, schrieb Frederik Ramm: Hallo, jh wrote: Die Contributor Terms sind nicht ueberfluessig, sonst wuerden sie einfach weggelassen werden. Dies sehe ich für die strittige Klausel 3 als von den Proponenten nicht hinreichend belegt. Die ODbL ist eine ganz neue Lizenz. Die hat noch niemand in dem Umfang eingesetzt, wie wir das vorhaben. Es ist moeglich, dass sie Fehler hat oder sich als ungeeignet herausstellt. Es ist auch moeglich, dass sich die Aussenwelt so veraendert, dass wir mit der ODbL irgendwann total abgehaengt dastehen, weil der Rest der Welt was anderes macht. Das ist z.B. der Wikipedia ja passiert mit der GFDL-Lizenz - die haben dann ja zum Glueck eine Klausel in die GFDL eingebaut bekommen, die den Wechsel zur CC-BY-SA ermoeglichte, *ohne* dass sie alle ihre Mitglieder fragen mussten. Koennen wir uns darauf verlassen, dass die Autoren der ODbL, wenn es tatsaechlich so weit kaeme, extra fuer uns eine Spezialklausel in die ODbL einbauen, die den Wechsel zu einer anderen Lizenz erlaubt? Zunächst: ich halte das Vorgehen der Wikipedia im Wesentlichen auch für einen schmutzigen oder zumindest fragwürdigen Trick mit ebenfalls nicht hinreichend belegtem Leidensdruck. Darüber will ich aber nicht streiten. Was die Situationen jedoch wesentlich unterscheidet, ist dass die CTs auch einen Wechsel des fundamentalen Charakters der Lizenz (weg von SA, bzw. hin zu PD) erlauben. Das Argument, das hier immer wieder gebracht wird, ist das des Abgehängtwerdens. Dieses Szenario halte ich jedoch für extrem unwahrscheinlich. Die Frage der Liberalität der Lizenz spielt, in einem gewissen Rahmen, gegenüber den sonstigen Qualitäten eines Angebotes eine eher untergeordnete Rolle. Siehe die relativen Erfolge von Linux (mit seiner eher restriktiven Lizenz) versus *BSD (kein Flamewar bitte). Wie ich geschrieben habe, wird gerade darueber diskutiert, die CTs dahingehend abzuaendern. Eine Abaenderung der CTs in Richtung einer *strengeren* Auslegung ist ja durchaus moeglich, ohne alle, die den bisherigen CTs zugestimmt haben, erneut fragen zu muessen. (Streng genommen gibt es dann zwei Gruppen von Nutzern, eine, die der ersten Fassung der CTs zugestimmt hat und eine, die der zweiten, staerker eingeschraenkten Fassung zugestimmt hat - die Handlungsmoeglichkeiten der OSMF sind dann natuerlich auf die Schnittmenge begrenzt.) Das ist ja shcön und gut, aber Zustimmung wird derzeit zu den aktuellen CTs eingefordert. Und nur über die müssen wir reden. Wir haben das Problem, dass viele Leute der neuen Lizenz nicht wegen ihrer selbst kritisch gegenueber stehen, sondern weil sie irgendeinen Datenverlust fuerchten, und sei der auch am anderen Ende der Welt. Hier wird also ein *potentieller* Datenverlust zur selbsterfuellenden Prophezeiung aufgebauscht: ich fuerchte, es koennten Daten verloren gehen, also rufe ich lauthals dazu auf, der Lizenz nicht zuzustimmen und sorge dadurch erst fuer den Datenverlust, der ohne meine Angstmache gar nicht erst eingetreten waere. Motiviert zu meinem initialen Posting hat mich, darauf hinzuweisen, dass die Annahme, die schweigende Mehrheit, der ich ansonsten angehöre, sei schon einverstanden. Das kann sich als Irrtum herausstellen und hat wenig mit einer self-fulfilling-prophecy zu tun. Ich hätte es für sinnvoll gehalten, für den Lizenzwechsel nicht Fakten zu schaffen, bevor nicht ein breiter Konsens erreicht worden ist. Mir ist klar, dass das Gegenargument hier die vermeintliche Unerreichbarkeit dieses Ziels ist. Je nach Definition von breit ist dieses auch unter Umständen nicht von der Hand zu weisen. Wenn aber im Namen dieses Glaubens die Diskussion eskaliert wird, bis davon gesprochen wird, dass Dissenter wie lästige Bazillen desinfiziert werden müssen, ist eine Grenze überschritten, die Widerspruch provoziert. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Garmin 60 CSx via USB-Kabel an JOSM
Hi Johann H. Addicks, Ihr wollt also allen ernstes einen 60CSx als GPS-Empfänger an einem laufenden Laptop betreiben, um die livedaten in Josm angezeigt zu bekommen? Aber das was Ihr (Du und Jan) da vorhabt, das halte ich für reichlich abgedreht. Oder habt ihr jemanden, der Euch in der Gegend herumfährt, so dass ihr vom Rücksitz (Auto, Tandem, Achterdeck) unterwegs in JOSM arbeiten wollt? Ich kenn so jemanden. Laut Erzaehlungen war es der Beifahrersitz in einem Jeep, wobei ein paar erfahrbare Wald- und Feldwege erfasst wurden. Ja, es ist ungewoehnlich, aber eben nicht unmoeglich. stw -- Zucker ist der Stoff, der dem Kaffee einen bitteren Geschmack verleiht - wenn man vergißt, ihn hineinzutun ... ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel: freiwillige Zustimmung ab jetzt moeglich
Am 13.08.2010 18:21, schrieb Ulf Möller: Am 13.08.2010 11:45, schrieb jh: Arroganz, mit der entsprechenden Bedenken der Australier begegnet wird - ich paraphrasiere: dann geht halt endlich streben! - unerträglich und inakzeptabel. Nanu, wer sagt das? Nur ein paar Beispiele: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2010-August/052707.html http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2010-August/003910.html http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2010-August/003908.html ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Garmin 60 CSx via USB-Kabel an JOSM
Hallo, Ihr wollt also allen ernstes einen 60CSx als GPS-Empfänger an einem laufenden Laptop betreiben, um die livedaten in Josm angezeigt zu bekommen? Ich kann ja verstehen, wenn Leute, die nur eine Bluetooth-Maus und kein neuzeitliches Handy besitzen, soetwas (meintwegen auch mit einem Netbook) tun. Ich hab alles an Navis, was es in den letzten Jahren so zu kaufen gab, und bin dennoch beim Netbook bzw. iPad gelandet (letzteres natürlich nicht für Josm). Es hat was, eine Gegend zu erkunden und dabei sofort zu editieren. Viele Fragen, die beim Eintragen sonst auf Erinnerungen/ Notizen angewiesen sind, schaut man einfach vor Ort gleich noch mal nach. Aber das was Ihr (Du und Jan) da vorhabt, das halte ich für reichlich abgedreht. Oder habt ihr jemanden, der Euch in der Gegend herumfährt, so dass ihr vom Rücksitz (Auto, Tandem, Achterdeck) unterwegs in JOSM arbeiten wollt? Ich halte die Methode nicht für abgedreht, sondern genial. Bin gerade die Peene hoch gefahren, hab die Dinge unterwegs (während der Fahrt) erfasst, per UMTS hochgeladen, Fertig. Die Kontrolle auf der Rückfahrt ergab brauchbare Ergebnisse... :-) Openlayers online auf iPhone/ iPad gerade für solche POI-Projekte, wie wir s sind, bedeutet einfach immer das geeignete Gerät zum Mal schnell klicken dabei zu haben. Ich hab damit nur gute Erfahrungen. Ich halte es für sinnvoll, auch solche fetten Clients für die Datenerfassung zu erschließen. Wenn ich in der gleichen Anwendung, mit der ich navigiere, auch gleich Korrekturen vornehmen kann, wird die Sache irgendwie leichter. Natürlich darf sie nicht zu leicht werden, aber das kann man dann steuern. Das Garmin selbst empfinde ich inzwischen bei der Datenerfassung als etwas spartanisch :-) JJ www.freietonne.de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
