Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
This has been a great discussion. I have always used aptitude even on desktop installs of Ubuntu because I can use one program to search and install. This makes life much easier, but yes the better dependency handling is another reason I use it as well. For example: aptitude search htop aptitude install htop vs apt-cache search htop apt-get instal htop It's much easier in my opinion to use one program (aptitude) to search, install and show info about packages. But I think what everyone really needs to ask themselves right now: Have you mooed today? aptitude -v moo There really are no Easter Eggs in this program. aptitude -vv moo Didn't I already tell you that there are no Easter Eggs in this program? aptitude -vvv moo Stop it! aptitude - moo Okay, okay, if I give you an Easter Egg, will you go away? aptitude -v moo All right, you win. /\ ---/ \ / \ /| -/ \ -- vs. apt-get apt-get moo (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:39:30AM -0700, Robert Bruce Park wrote: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:22:28AM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:33:23PM +, Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn wrote: Thereby removing one more user choice. Choice is one of the bedrocks of linux. Thanks guys. That's one of the main reasons I dumped ubuntu and went to debian. Have aptitude is a plus, you don't remove any choice: if you want, do:sudo apt-get install aptitudeThe thing I hate is the proxy configuration for network.. is very expensive to have the apply to the whole system??? The actual behavior only sets the proxy for the current user, and when you try do: sudo ... you can't !! You lost me. Could you clarify? I think Alan is referring to the inconsistent implementations of proxies in various packages. In particular, if he configures a proxy for his current user, no commands he runs as sudo will observe that. so if he's behind a proxy, nothing run under sudo can access the internet properly. It's a pain. That clears it up. Thanks. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 04:44:25PM -0700, Clint Byrum wrote: On 2013-04-10 01:29, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 01:25:22PM -0700, Clint Byrum wrote: For computer enthusiasts and power users, the CLI is great. But for the person who sees their computing device as a window to other activities, it is a huge distraction. It's not a distraction if they choose not to use it. Just being presented with a choice is a distraction. The only way a choice would be presented is if the user scanned the screen showing all programs. If Grandma and Grandpa saw it, they probably wouldn't know what it was and would ignore it. Which is more distracting, driving down a straight road from point A to point B without any intersections, or driving straight through the center of a busy metropolitan center? Even if you know where you're going, you might turn for some very reasonable reason, or just get lost due to all the things that can go wrong on those busy multi-purposed streets. Less obvious decision points is annoying to power users, but it is freeing to the average user. Freeing them from what, learning? Granted, the average user isn't interested in learning but they would be free to reject the opportunity if they so chose. *That's* freedom. I had dumped Ubuntu and gone back to Debian, mostly because of Marvelous Mark's autocratic attitude. Just recently decided to try Ubuntu again to see what had changed. After reading the attitude that, at least, some of the devs display here about determining for the user what's best for him/her, I guess I'll settle in with Debian and just lurk on this list. So long and thanks for the heartburn. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Seeing as this isn't dying anytime soon I'll jump in. Freeing them from what, learning? Granted, the average user isn't interested in learning but they would be free to reject the opportunity if they so chose. *That's* freedom. There is nothing - *nothing* that is stopping anyone from installing whatever they want on Ubuntu. Canonical are doing the *smart* engineering decision and officially supports *one* tool that gets the job done. And the few people that disagree with the tool are more than welcome to hop on the servers graciously hosted by Canonical to download other tools. I'm shocked that people get their panties in a bunch over this 'give me more choice!' issue since, as stated before, *one* default program that gets the job done has always been an Ubuntu policy. I had dumped Ubuntu and gone back to Debian, mostly because of Marvelous Mark's autocratic attitude. Just recently decided to try Ubuntu again to see what had changed. After reading the attitude that, at least, some of the devs display here about determining for the user what's best for him/her, I guess I'll settle in with Debian and just lurk on this list. So what do you want in an OS? A 16-DVD installer of Ubuntu so that everyone will be just so happy that we have every single program ever installed? God forbid we deprive those poor souls of choice. Let's ask if they want auto-fsck enabled, or automount (because some users won't want their USB drives automounted, how uncivilized!). I'm shocked that people can have this kind of though-process. People just want to use their goddamn computers - even something as simple as 'what search engine would you like to use?' distracts and complicates the computing experience - Just look at Windows. Watch users get so confused when Windows has eight million dialogues asking users what they want to do. There's a delicate balance between KDE's option's-galore-insanity and Gnome's brink-of-stupidity-simplifications. And Ubuntu's currently the only OS that is sane enough to *mostly* see this balance (sadly, they're still pulled back by Gnome's methodical destruction of their frameworks). FYI, I'm not a Canonical member nor an Ubuntu member, so don't take my words as official. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Thursday, April 11, 2013 06:36:45 PM Brett wrote: Seeing as this isn't dying anytime soon I'll jump in. Freeing them from what, learning? Granted, the average user isn't interested in learning but they would be free to reject the opportunity if they so chose. *That's* freedom. There is nothing - *nothing* that is stopping anyone from installing whatever they want on Ubuntu. Canonical are doing the *smart* engineering decision and officially supports *one* tool that gets the job done. And the few people that disagree with the tool are more than welcome to hop on the servers graciously hosted by Canonical to download other tools. I'm shocked that people get their panties in a bunch over this 'give me more choice!' issue since, as stated before, *one* default program that gets the job done has always been an Ubuntu policy. I had dumped Ubuntu and gone back to Debian, mostly because of Marvelous Mark's autocratic attitude. Just recently decided to try Ubuntu again to see what had changed. After reading the attitude that, at least, some of the devs display here about determining for the user what's best for him/her, I guess I'll settle in with Debian and just lurk on this list. So what do you want in an OS? A 16-DVD installer of Ubuntu so that everyone will be just so happy that we have every single program ever installed? God forbid we deprive those poor souls of choice. Let's ask if they want auto-fsck enabled, or automount (because some users won't want their USB drives automounted, how uncivilized!). I'm shocked that people can have this kind of though-process. People just want to use their goddamn computers - even something as simple as 'what search engine would you like to use?' distracts and complicates the computing experience - Just look at Windows. Watch users get so confused when Windows has eight million dialogues asking users what they want to do. There's a delicate balance between KDE's option's-galore-insanity and Gnome's brink-of-stupidity-simplifications. And Ubuntu's currently the only OS that is sane enough to *mostly* see this balance (sadly, they're still pulled back by Gnome's methodical destruction of their frameworks). FYI, I'm not a Canonical member nor an Ubuntu member, so don't take my words as official. One other point that I think is relevant is that this list is meant for user/developer interactions, but it's required for no one to be here. ubuntu- devel and ubuntu-devel-discuss got split into two lists a long time ago because it was hard to have a reasonable conversation on the old, combined ubuntu-devel. In the past, this list has been a forum for users to flame developers over things they thought had been done wrong. The result of a hostile environment for discussion is that developers unsubscribe. There are a lot fewer subscribed now than there were when the list was first created. If you want there to be a forum where developer and non-developers can regularly interact and discuss issue of interest to both groups, it's incumbent on people to make this list something people want to participate in. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 01:25:22PM -0700, Clint Byrum wrote: For computer enthusiasts and power users, the CLI is great. But for the person who sees their computing device as a window to other activities, it is a huge distraction. It's not a distraction if they choose not to use it. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net writes: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 01:25:22PM -0700, Clint Byrum wrote: For computer enthusiasts and power users, the CLI is great. But for the person who sees their computing device as a window to other activities, it is a huge distraction. It's not a distraction if they choose not to use it. That's the point, they should have the choice to not use it. Someone said it somewhere else in this thread, nobody want to *remove* the possibility of using the CLI but people uncomfortable using it shouldn't be forced to use it. Vincent -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 9 April 2013 18:02, Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:57 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: If anything, it's aptitude which is less feature-rich =) Space on the CD is still a reason for not including duplicate functionality. What CD? So all iso images generated and released have hard limits on their size. For a long time the hard limit was of what a standard CD-ROM size is which is ~700MB (+- bikesheding about unit sizes and how much extra buffer is writable). After extensive discussions the limit got raise a little to ~800MB for Ubuntu Desktop, and some official flavours also followed suite (Xubuntu ?!). I think Ubuntu Server and Lubuntu still have CD size limit. One can check size limits warnings on the ISO tracker, e.g.: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/243/builds/41759/testcases Regards, Dmitrijs. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 10:49:27AM +0200, Vincent Ladeuil wrote: Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net writes: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 01:25:22PM -0700, Clint Byrum wrote: For computer enthusiasts and power users, the CLI is great. But for the person who sees their computing device as a window to other activities, it is a huge distraction. It's not a distraction if they choose not to use it. That's the point, they should have the choice to not use it. Someone said it somewhere else in this thread, nobody want to *remove* the possibility of using the CLI but people uncomfortable using it shouldn't be forced to use it. Did someone say anyone was or would be forced to use the CLI? -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:33:23PM +, Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn wrote: Thereby removing one more user choice. Choice is one of the bedrocks of linux. Thanks guys. That's one of the main reasons I dumped ubuntu and went to debian. Have aptitude is a plus, you don't remove any choice: if you want, do:sudo apt-get install aptitudeThe thing I hate is the proxy configuration for network.. is very expensive to have the apply to the whole system??? The actual behavior only sets the proxy for the current user, and when you try do: sudo ... you can't !! You lost me. Could you clarify? -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:22:28 -0700 From: hol...@cox.net To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:33:23PM +, Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn wrote: Thereby removing one more user choice. Choice is one of the bedrocks of linux. Thanks guys. That's one of the main reasons I dumped ubuntu and went to debian. Have aptitude is a plus, you don't remove any choice: if you want, do:sudo apt-get install aptitudeThe thing I hate is the proxy configuration for network.. is very expensive to have the apply to the whole system??? The actual behavior only sets the proxy for the current user, and when you try do: sudo ... you can't !! You lost me. Could you clarify?I'm speaking about another problem, this thread isn't the place...In 13.04 you only can set the proxy for the current user, the buttonset proxy to all system no exist. When you try to install something,and you enter: sudo apt... the proxy is only in your user, and the sudocommands cannot access to internet. One solution, pass the proxy in thecommand:sudo http_proxy=... apt...But that isn't practical..Got that? -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:22:28AM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:33:23PM +, Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn wrote: Thereby removing one more user choice. Choice is one of the bedrocks of linux. Thanks guys. That's one of the main reasons I dumped ubuntu and went to debian. Have aptitude is a plus, you don't remove any choice: if you want, do:sudo apt-get install aptitudeThe thing I hate is the proxy configuration for network.. is very expensive to have the apply to the whole system??? The actual behavior only sets the proxy for the current user, and when you try do: sudo ... you can't !! You lost me. Could you clarify? I think Alan is referring to the inconsistent implementations of proxies in various packages. In particular, if he configures a proxy for his current user, no commands he runs as sudo will observe that. so if he's behind a proxy, nothing run under sudo can access the internet properly. It's a pain. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 04:17:11PM -0400, Brett Cornwall wrote: ..snip. This has been blown way out of proportion - please ignore the trollish comment of discouraging CLI usage. This was only ever about replacing a default program with another one. And that has been identified as hard-to-do with no real benefits. Don't know if that was aimed at me or Dmitrijs, but if it was me let me assure you it was no troll. It was in reply to On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers from Dmitrijs' post. I also stated that I hoped that was a joke. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 2013-04-10 01:29, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 01:25:22PM -0700, Clint Byrum wrote: For computer enthusiasts and power users, the CLI is great. But for the person who sees their computing device as a window to other activities, it is a huge distraction. It's not a distraction if they choose not to use it. Just being presented with a choice is a distraction. Which is more distracting, driving down a straight road from point A to point B without any intersections, or driving straight through the center of a busy metropolitan center? Even if you know where you're going, you might turn for some very reasonable reason, or just get lost due to all the things that can go wrong on those busy multi-purposed streets. Less obvious decision points is annoying to power users, but it is freeing to the average user. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 8 April 2013 17:46, Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com wrote: In revisions past, Ubuntu's CDs did not have enough space to accommodate aptitude and apt-get. Now that we have moved on to DVDs I feel it would be a worthy investment to include aptitude by default, especially since it is Debian's 'proper' package management tool. We did not move to DVDs, but to a 800MB limit. Aptitude is a fairly niche and highly technical package. People who know/want to use aptitude are also sufficiently advanced to install it manually. Regards, Dmitrijs. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 9 April 2013 12:45, Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com wrote: On 04/09/2013 06:31 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: snip Aptitude is a fairly niche and highly technical package. snip I beg to differ: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkgtools.en.html Official Debian docs, section 8.1.3 - aptitude: Note that aptitude is the preferred program for daily package management from console. Sure, that's why aptitude is seeded on ubuntu-server images, is in main and supported. Dismissing this as a 'niche' tool hardly counts. Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are niche on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server. We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface. On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred package management using: - dash application scope - software updater - software center Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above. AFAIR, Debian was even trying to discourage usage of apt-get in the day in favor of aptitude before Ubuntu decided to drop aptitude in 10.10. On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. Regards, Dmitrijs. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Where does this conmviction come from? On 04/09/2013 02:21 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. Regards, Dmitrijs. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
hi, On Di, 2013-04-09 at 13:21 +0100, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface. On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred package management using: - dash application scope - software updater - software center on a sidenote it would be duplication to add an additional package commandline tool with additional metadata DBs next to apts. we are short enough on diskspace on the images (especially on desktop) no need to bloat that with duplicated tools ... ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: snip Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are niche on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server. We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface. On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred package management using: - dash application scope - software updater - software center Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above. I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top? My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the packages possible for this project. So the drawbacks of including aptitude seem to be: 1) It takes up 2 MB of space 2) Dependency resolution might have to actually be tested (instead of making every stupid package just depend on ubuntu-desktop or xorg?). ;) On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. I see, so an OS for 'everyone' shouldn't even have gnome-terminal installed at all - make people switch to a VT (and why hasn't that been disabled by default? I'd bet my life savings that every user has accidentally hit CTRL+ALT+F1 at least once on their Ubuntu use - now THAT'S an issue to really actively prevent). There are some strange priorities set based on these phobias. Again, I'm not suggesting an arbitrary specialized tool like vim/emacs get included, I'm suggesting the addition of the endorsed CLI package management tool from the Debian project be included. So if the project were to (understandably) want to include only one CLI tool to use, why not aptitude? As stated, it's already officially supported on ubuntu-server, why not include it on ubuntu-desktop and drop apt-get to reduce a package to have to officially support? And who said I was a developer? I'd only be so lucky to be able to claim that title. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:29:04 -0400 From: brettcornw...@lavabit.com To: dmitrij.led...@ubuntu.com; ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: snip Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are niche on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server. We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface. On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred package management using: - dash application scope - software updater - software center Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above. I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top? My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the packages possible for this project. So the drawbacks of including aptitude seem to be: 1) It takes up 2 MB of space 2 mb more no makes the difference.. 2) Dependency resolution might have to actually be tested (instead of making every stupid package just depend on ubuntu-desktop or xorg?). ;) +1 On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. I see, so an OS for 'everyone' shouldn't even have gnome-terminal installed at all - make people switch to a VT (and why hasn't that been disabled by default? I'd bet my life savings that every user has accidentally hit CTRL+ALT+F1 at least once on their Ubuntu use - now THAT'S an issue to really actively prevent). There are some strange priorities set based on these phobias. Again, I'm not suggesting an arbitrary specialized tool like vim/emacs get included, I'm suggesting the addition of the endorsed CLI package management tool from the Debian project be included. So if the project were to (understandably) want to include only one CLI tool to use, why not aptitude? As stated, it's already officially supported on ubuntu-server, why not include it on ubuntu-desktop and drop apt-get to reduce a package to have to officially support? And who said I was a developer? I'd only be so lucky to be able to claim that title. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Di, 2013-04-09 at 11:29 -0400, Brett Cornwall wrote: On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: snip Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are niche on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server. We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface. On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred package management using: - dash application scope - software updater - software center Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above. I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top? My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the packages possible for this project. ranting wont get you anywhere ... aptitude is not the recommended tool in ubuntu and never was (at least in the 9 years i work on ubuntu) ... if it is recommended anywhere that is definitely wrong and this recommendation should be adjusted to apt-get. all package management and its UI tools revolve around apt since day one. you could as well rant about the fact that we dont include dselect by default ... both are debian tools that arent used in an ubuntu default installation ... ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 11:57 AM, Oliver Grawert wrote: ranting wont get you anywhere ... That wasn't my intention. aptitude is not the recommended tool in ubuntu and never was (at least in the 9 years i work on ubuntu) ... if it is recommended anywhere that is definitely wrong and this recommendation should be adjusted to apt-get. Please read the previous messages. I did not say in Ubuntu, I said in _Debian_. I'm trying to get it changed in Ubuntu. And are you seriously suggesting that _Ubuntu_ ask Debian to adjust the endorsed management tools? snipped for non sequitur you could as well rant about the fact that we dont include dselect by default ... both are debian tools that arent used in an ubuntu default installation ... I am arguing replacement of apt-get with aptitude, not about including an arbitrary package for the hell of it. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Why? 2013/4/9 Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com I'm trying to get it changed in Ubuntu. -- [] Alexandre Strube su...@ubuntu.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs dmitrij.led...@ubuntu.com wrote: I beg to differ: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkgtools.en.html Official Debian docs, section 8.1.3 - aptitude: Note that aptitude is the preferred program for daily package management from console. Sure, that's why aptitude is seeded on ubuntu-server images, is in main and supported. This is actually being debated over on debian-devel as we type. So some piece of text from the Debian FAQ that simply hasn't been updated in a long time doesn't trump anything. The thread starts here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/04/msg00322.html -- Andrew Starr-Bochicchio Ubuntu Developer https://launchpad.net/~andrewsomething Debian Developer http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=asb PGP/GPG Key ID: D53FDCB1 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:17 PM, Alexandre Strube wrote: Why? Because aptitude is the successor to apt-get, endorsed by the community that does all the packaging for this OS, is more stable, and has better dependency handling (indeed, promotes better dependency setting). It makes no sense to keep a less feature-rich and complete tool that has long been replaced. Space on the CD was the original reason (along with some canonical employee saying it was 'too complex' for some reason) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:19 PM, Andrew Starr-Bochicchio wrote: This is actually being debated over on debian-devel as we type. So some piece of text from the Debian FAQ that simply hasn't been updated in a long time doesn't trump anything. So the reason for not even considering this as an option is because someone has decided to spark conversation against recommending aptitude after it's been recommended for years? That's not very good logic. Thank you for the thread. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tuesday, April 09, 2013 12:27:28 PM Brett Cornwall wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:19 PM, Andrew Starr-Bochicchio wrote: This is actually being debated over on debian-devel as we type. So some piece of text from the Debian FAQ that simply hasn't been updated in a long time doesn't trump anything. So the reason for not even considering this as an option is because someone has decided to spark conversation against recommending aptitude after it's been recommended for years? That's not very good logic. Thank you for the thread. Other way around. It was recommended in Debian for Lenny because at the time the apt resolver had some issues that have long since been resolved. Touting aptitude as great because of the Debian release notes is making present virtue out of past necessity. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Waclaw Kusnierczyk w...@idi.ntnu.no wrote: Where does this conmviction come from? On 04/09/2013 02:21 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. Regards, Dmitrijs. It is consistent to the dumbing down of our society, which is not necessarily a bad thing. All modern cars are built for idiots to use. If these same idiots think they know how to use a computer (as they think that they are really drivers) then there is some overall benefit. The prices of computers and the internet are as low as they are because so many otherwise incapacitated users buy them. If Bill Gates hadn't been a complete idiot about software, the machines we get for $300 today may have never come into existence... Personally, I look forward to the day of the return of the 24x80 CRT... but know I am in the minority.. for me the GUI is only something that gets in the way of me being productive. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.**ubuntu.comUbuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/** mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-**discusshttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- --- NOTE: If it is important CALL ME - I may miss email, which I do NOT normally check on weekends nor on a regular basis during any other day. --- LD Landis - N0YRQ - de la tierra del encanto 3960 Schooner Loop, Las Cruces, NM 88012 651-340-4007 **FWBCS N32 21'48.28 W106 46'5.80 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tuesday, April 09, 2013 12:24:47 PM Brett Cornwall wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:17 PM, Alexandre Strube wrote: Why? Because aptitude is the successor to apt-get, endorsed by the community that does all the packaging for this OS, is more stable, and has better dependency handling (indeed, promotes better dependency setting). It makes no sense to keep a less feature-rich and complete tool that has long been replaced. Space on the CD was the original reason (along with some canonical employee saying it was 'too complex' for some reason) It is in no way a successor to apt. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
hi, On Di, 2013-04-09 at 12:24 -0400, Brett Cornwall wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:17 PM, Alexandre Strube wrote: Why? Because aptitude is the successor to apt-get, endorsed by the community that does all the packaging for this OS, is more stable, and has better dependency handling (indeed, promotes better dependency setting). It makes no sense to keep a less feature-rich and complete tool that has long been replaced. Space on the CD was the original reason (along with some canonical employee saying it was 'too complex' for some reason) so are you ready to rewrite software-center, update-manager (and its several equivalents in the flavour distros), the server side tools that are used (apt-ftparchive and friends), synaptics (used in flavours), the different flavour specific software-center equivalents to use aptitude (i surely forgot another 100 here) ? aptitude isnt a successor its has existed since ubuntu exists in parallel to apt in debian ... if it is a successor to anything its probably more a successor to dselect than to apt (but i guess even that would be a pretty wrong thing to claim) ... it is just another package management tool and nothing in ubuntu would be ready to make use of it without rewriting large portions of the system ... in the light that nearly *every other bit* of the desktop is currently being rewritten for 13.10 (Mir, UnityNext, switching everything to Qt, making device convergence happen, releasing a phone OS with apps ... etc etc) i highly doubt there is any manpower left to work on such rewrites. but if you see such spare manpower in the community, then make it happen, once most of the package managing tools are ported there surely is an opportunity to discuss such a switch again ... just shipping it alongside would go against ubuntus policy of avoiding duplication in default installs. ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
It is consistent to the dumbing down of our society, which is not necessarily a bad thing. All modern cars are built for idiots to use. If these same idiots think they know how to use a computer (as they think that they are really drivers) then there is some overall benefit. The prices of computers and the internet are as low as they are because so many otherwise incapacitated users buy them. If Bill Gates hadn't been a complete idiot about software, the machines we get for $300 today may have never come into existence... Personally, I look forward to the day of the return of the 24x80 CRT... but know I am in the minority.. for me the GUI is only something that gets in the way of me being productive. I was not arguing any of these cases - I was simply trying to argue for replacing one tool for a better one. I'm so sorry that I bother to even try - only one person has approached this with any sort of helpfulness with a nice link to an ongoing discussion of the sort - the rest have been assholes. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:40 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: snip It is in no way a successor to apt. I did _not say_ it was a successor to apt. Forget I ever brought anything up. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:45 PM, Oliver Grawert wrote: snip Forget it - forget it. One could have said that all of Ubuntu's software depended on apt-get from the get-go. But instead I get a barrage of messages of people just telling me that my thought was stupid. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:40 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: snip It is in no way a successor to apt. I did _not say_ it was a successor to apt. Forget I ever brought anything up. On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com wrote: Because aptitude is the successor to apt-get https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2013-April/014401.html -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:54 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: Debian endorsements or discouragements for aptitude are not very relevant for what ubuntu should ship by default on ubuntu desktop. And apt-get is the default upgrade tool in debian. [1] http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/i386/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#upgradingpackages We cannot replace apt-get easily on the Ubuntu Desktop as it's a reverse dependency for software-centre/aptdaemon/software scope. Thus apt-get in ubuntu desktop, is merely a by product of being used as a reliable resolver, which good user interface and experiences are build on top. Thank you for a good explanation. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:53 PM, Riccardo Padovani wrote: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:40 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: snip It is in no way a successor to apt. I did _not say_ it was a successor to apt. Forget I ever brought anything up. On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com wrote: Because aptitude is the successor to apt-get Forgive me, I thought someone implied that I was suggesting that aptitude was somehow a replacement to the apt package management system in its entirety -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
hi, On Di, 2013-04-09 at 12:53 -0400, Brett Cornwall wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:45 PM, Oliver Grawert wrote: snip Forget it - forget it. One could have said that all of Ubuntu's software depended on apt-get from the get-go. But instead I get a barrage of messages of people just telling me that my thought was stupid. i don't think i saw anyone calling you stupid in this thread ... you made a claim (a few in fact) and people tried to get across why that claim was wrong, thats all ... don't be upset (and don't stop to make suggestions just because of this) :) ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 9 April 2013 17:27, Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:19 PM, Andrew Starr-Bochicchio wrote: This is actually being debated over on debian-devel as we type. So some piece of text from the Debian FAQ that simply hasn't been updated in a long time doesn't trump anything. So the reason for not even considering this as an option is because someone has decided to spark conversation against recommending aptitude after it's been recommended for years? That's not very good logic. Thank you for the thread. From what I remember, aptitude was supposed to be the successor to apt-get because it is more intelligent. It was recommended to use aptitude over apt-get in Ubuntu some years ago, but that changed relatively recently when apt-get became recommended precisely due to its lack of dependency-resolving abilities. I remember it was seen as an odd choice at the time but was justified by the lack of space, the fact that having two package management programs was unnecessary (and an advanced user would apt-get install aptitude), and that unaware users could accept the first resolution suggestion and bork their installation. Just from my own humble experience, there have been numerous times when aptitude has been able to resolve a package situation that apt-get would simply refuse to entertain; apt-get would just say it couldn't do anything and exit. While on the one hand this behaviour prevents me from breaking the system, if the system does get into a state where further package installation is impossible then I can't get out of it. If aptitude wasn't already installed at that point I wouldn't be able to install it unless I remove the broken package - and as we all know this can result in a lot of other dependencies being uninstalled. I can see the goal of preventing the system from getting into such a state (e.g. by focussing on installation only from the Software Centre), but if I download Skype or Steam from their respective websites, and follow their installation instructions, it's easy to imagine such a situation occurring. I'd suggest that while the inclusion of aptitude is by itself not a big problem, an ever-increasing distancing from Debian means increasing fragmentation and an increased workload. Already there is a huge amount of packaging effort needed to reconcile upstream changes against Ubuntu sauces. The trouble as I see it stems from the movement of Ubuntu towards a convergent consumer OS. Many long-standing Ubuntu users installed it because packages were more current than Stable or Testing, but the system was more stable and workable than Sid. Even now, despite improvements to the Debian desktop, Ubuntu simply works better for most people. For those who use Ubuntu as a better Debian, the move to a consumer-focus means a lot of extra features being added that they don't need or want - automatic geolocation, for example. The concern is that Ubuntu packages are becoming increasingly interdependent on the consumer features, and that it's becoming more difficult to have a more pure/minimal desktop. For example, if I want the latest Plank, I have to have geoclue. There's no choice. J -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
The situation seems to be: Both apt-get and aptitude is far from perfect. apt-get: more secure and stupid aptitude: more smart and dangerous Since apt-get has been regarded as default for long, let's keep it? But seriously, can we fix the known issues in apt-get or aptitude? They need some improvement. A rock solid backend toolchain is needed for our success. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Excerpts from LD 'Gus' Landis's message of 2013-04-09 09:40:37 -0700: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Waclaw Kusnierczyk w...@idi.ntnu.no wrote: Where does this conmviction come from? On 04/09/2013 02:21 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. Regards, Dmitrijs. It is consistent to the dumbing down of our society, which is not necessarily a bad thing. All modern cars are built for idiots to use. If these same idiots think they know how to use a computer (as they think that they are really drivers) then there is some overall benefit. You call it dumbing down, I call it freeing people to learn more interesting things. News flash: Most people don't want to use a computer. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 02:37:33PM +0200, Waclaw Kusnierczyk wrote: Where does this conmviction come from? On 04/09/2013 02:21 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. Regards, Dmitrijs. Sigh. I can see my future with the use of Ubuntu is limited. My desktop usually consists of a dozen xterm's and a Firefox. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 9 April 2013 13:13, J Fernyhough j.fernyho...@gmail.com wrote: Just from my own humble experience, there have been numerous times when aptitude has been able to resolve a package situation that apt-get would simply refuse to entertain; apt-get would just say it couldn't do anything and exit. While on the one hand this behaviour prevents me from breaking the system, if the system does get into a state where further package installation is impossible then I can't get out of it. If aptitude wasn't already installed at that point I wouldn't be able to install it unless I remove the broken package - and as we all know this can result in a lot of other dependencies being uninstalled. I can see the goal of preventing the system from getting into such a state (e.g. by focussing on installation only from the Software Centre), but if I download Skype or Steam from their respective websites, and follow their installation instructions, it's easy to imagine such a situation occurring. How recently have you had these dependency problems? You don't have raring-proposed enabled, do you? (The -proposed repositories for Ubuntu series' that haven't been released is strongly not recommended for people to use because of temporary dependency problems and other issues.) You shouldn't be having dependency problems with the regular Ubuntu archives and I believe it's a priority bug if you find an issue like that. Jeremy -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 9 April 2013 19:25, Jeremy Bicha jer...@bicha.net wrote: On 9 April 2013 13:13, J Fernyhough j.fernyho...@gmail.com wrote: Just from my own humble experience, there have been numerous times when aptitude has been able to resolve a package situation that apt-get would simply refuse to entertain; apt-get would just say it couldn't do anything and exit. While on the one hand this behaviour prevents me from breaking the system, if the system does get into a state where further package installation is impossible then I can't get out of it. If aptitude wasn't already installed at that point I wouldn't be able to install it unless I remove the broken package - and as we all know this can result in a lot of other dependencies being uninstalled. I can see the goal of preventing the system from getting into such a state (e.g. by focussing on installation only from the Software Centre), but if I download Skype or Steam from their respective websites, and follow their installation instructions, it's easy to imagine such a situation occurring. How recently have you had these dependency problems? You don't have raring-proposed enabled, do you? (The -proposed repositories for Ubuntu series' that haven't been released is strongly not recommended for people to use because of temporary dependency problems and other issues.) You shouldn't be having dependency problems with the regular Ubuntu archives and I believe it's a priority bug if you find an issue like that. Jeremy Fairly recently, but I'm probably not a typical Ubuntu user any more. I run U+1 as a rolling release from a minimal CLI base (mini.iso), so my dependency problems could be caused by -proposed, PPAs (Rico's GNOME3 testing, for example), and third-party packages (e.g. AMDs fglrx). If it was happening in an LTS or normal release I'd be reporting bugs, but for a couple of years I haven't been able to do that without fear of reporting something spurious. J -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
hi, On Di, 2013-04-09 at 11:22 -0700, Dale Amon wrote: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 02:37:33PM +0200, Waclaw Kusnierczyk wrote: Where does this conmviction come from? On 04/09/2013 02:21 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. Regards, Dmitrijs. Sigh. I can see my future with the use of Ubuntu is limited. My desktop usually consists of a dozen xterm's and a Firefox. and why does that limit your future ? do you expect us to rip out firefox or xterm from the archive ? guess what, ubuntu is developed *on* ubuntu by its developers, we use terminals too ;) ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 08:49:41PM +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote: and why does that limit your future ? do you expect us to rip out firefox or xterm from the archive ? No, I don't expect you to do anything. I am just sad about all the functionality of X windows that has been left behind. Simple things like being able to click on the screen, go to a menu entry and select an entirely different window manager. Or to get a 'kill' icon that you use to give the kiss of death to a runaway GUI program. Some of the changes that led to gnome I like; some things in X I simply do not understand why they are no long available. Some day I might even have time to figure out how to move up from Oneiric without losing the mission critical functionality I have. More bluntly, I do not want my environment to change; I want new stuff but I do not want my old stuff to break. Ever. Not much chance of that though. I do not think there is *any* distribution, open source or otherwise, that promises long term stability. They all seem to be constantly chasing after the latest pretty bauble. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 06:45:25PM +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote: snip... just shipping it alongside would go against ubuntus policy of avoiding duplication in default installs. Thereby removing one more user choice. Choice is one of the bedrocks of linux. Thanks guys. That's one of the main reasons I dumped ubuntu and went to debian. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
.snip On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. That's one of the more elitist, swinishly arrogant statements I've heard lately. Are you actually discouraging new users from learning linux? Why? The cli is one of the best teaching tools there is. Are you afraid of confusing Grandma and Grandpa? Is this part of the process of dumbing down the distro that's been going on lately? Did the devs come up with that or was it an edict from Mavelous Mark? I hope to hell that was a joke. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Thereby removing one more user choice. Choice is one of the bedrocks of linux. Thanks guys. That's one of the main reasons I dumped ubuntu and went to debian. Have aptitude is a plus, you don't remove any choice: if you want, do:sudo apt-get install aptitudeThe thing I hate is the proxy configuration for network.. is very expensive to have the apply to the whole system??? The actual behavior only sets the proxy for the current user, and when you try do: sudo ... you can't !! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
hi, On Di, 2013-04-09 at 12:20 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 06:45:25PM +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote: snip... just shipping it alongside would go against ubuntus policy of avoiding duplication in default installs. Thereby removing one more user choice. Choice is one of the bedrocks of linux. Thanks guys. That's one of the main reasons I dumped ubuntu and went to debian. removing choice that was never there ? sorry, but i totally miss the point of your statement ... this thread was discussing *adding* something to the *default* install that hasn't been there before, how can that be removing choice ? the policy of not adding duplication on the default installation has been there since day one of ubuntus existence (like the policy of no open ports has as well) ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Excerpts from Robert Holtzman's message of 2013-04-09 12:20:40 -0700: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 06:45:25PM +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote: snip... just shipping it alongside would go against ubuntus policy of avoiding duplication in default installs. Thereby removing one more user choice. Choice is one of the bedrocks of linux. Thanks guys. That's one of the main reasons I dumped ubuntu and went to debian. Who removed your choice? Defaults are simply opinions, not rules. Install your divergent choices, and be happy. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Excerpts from Dale Amon's message of 2013-04-09 12:14:40 -0700: On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 08:49:41PM +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote: and why does that limit your future ? do you expect us to rip out firefox or xterm from the archive ? No, I don't expect you to do anything. I am just sad about all the functionality of X windows that has been left behind. Simple things like being able to click on the screen, go to a menu entry and select an entirely different window manager. install another window manager, and select it in the login screen? Or to get a 'kill' icon that you use to give the kiss of death to a runaway GUI program. alt-F2, xkill... Some of the changes that led to gnome I like; some things in X I simply do not understand why they are no long available. such as? Some day I might even have time to figure out how to move up from Oneiric without losing the mission critical functionality I have. More bluntly, I do not want my environment to change; I want new stuff but I do not want my old stuff to break. Ever. The other day I watched the Star Trek where Mark Twain came to be in the future, and it was so quaint the way he couldn't relate to anything new and had to run back to the past. Don't be an anachronism. (Also why would you pick 11.10 if you wanted things to never change? 10.04 and 12.04 would have been much better choices) Not much chance of that though. I do not think there is *any* distribution, open source or otherwise, that promises long term stability. They all seem to be constantly chasing after the latest pretty bauble. Or perhaps we're all just trying to solve problems. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 04:01 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: Who removed your choice? Defaults are simply opinions, not rules. Install your divergent choices, and be happy. I have to really emphasize, especially as I was the topic creator, that I was discussing the possibility of replacing apt-get with aptitude. My reasonings were on false data and misunderstandings of certain inner workings. This is not about adding aptitude back to be side-by-side - though my wording might have been better. Remember that people got really upset when control-alt-backspace was disabled by default. Remember, we all have the option to run what we want - the things that are truly (horribly) locked into our systems are things like the piece of crap that is plymouth. Those are the things that we really have no choice on and that should be fought against. But having all these choices as defaults truly doesn't make any sense. Nothing is stopping someone from apt-get-ting aptitude or synaptic. It makes no sense for most users to use anything but apt-get (it does what most people want and duplication of efforts really does add more testing necessities that could be better spent elsewhere). This has been blown way out of proportion - please ignore the trollish comment of discouraging CLI usage. This was only ever about replacing a default program with another one. And that has been identified as hard-to-do with no real benefits. Life goes on after: sudo apt-get install aptitude vim emacs gnome-shell kubuntu-desktop compizconfig-manager etc etc etc whatever you want. Cheers guys, I didn't mean for this to blow out of proportion so hard. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Excerpts from Robert Holtzman's message of 2013-04-09 12:33:05 -0700: .snip On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. That's one of the more elitist, swinishly arrogant statements I've heard lately. Are you actually discouraging new users from learning linux? Why? The cli is one of the best teaching tools there is. Are you afraid of confusing Grandma and Grandpa? Is this part of the process of dumbing down the distro that's been going on lately? Did the devs come up with that or was it an edict from Mavelous Mark? I hope to hell that was a joke. For computer enthusiasts and power users, the CLI is great. But for the person who sees their computing device as a window to other activities, it is a huge distraction. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 01:25:22PM -0700, Clint Byrum wrote: Excerpts from Robert Holtzman's message of 2013-04-09 12:33:05 -0700: .snip On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. That's one of the more elitist, swinishly arrogant statements I've heard lately. Are you actually discouraging new users from learning linux? Why? The cli is one of the best teaching tools there is. Are you afraid of confusing Grandma and Grandpa? Is this part of the process of dumbing down the distro that's been going on lately? Did the devs come up with that or was it an edict from Mavelous Mark? I hope to hell that was a joke. For computer enthusiasts and power users, the CLI is great. But for the person who sees their computing device as a window to other activities, it is a huge distraction. It's good to help people avoid things they see as distractions. But that is no cause to discourage usage of command line, since for many people it is a huge time-saver and far less distracting than wading thru the learning curve on the GUI-du-jure. So given that it seems we can agree that the original message was a bit off-target (thanks for the clarification, Brett!), can we also agree that this notion that Ubuntu wants to discourage usage of command line (sic) is also not only unsupported by any evidence, but not a good idea. Instead, let's continue to free GUI-lovers from *needing* to use the command line, and let's make it easy for command-line users to retain all their superpowers without needless disruption. Specific bug reports related to those goals are welcomed. And lets all take a deep breath. In... Out... Ahhh... Thanks to all the volunteers and supporters that make Ubuntu possible! Neal McBurnett http://neal.mcburnett.org/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Brett Cornwall brettcornw...@lavabit.com wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:17 PM, Alexandre Strube wrote: Why? Because aptitude is the successor to apt-get, endorsed by the community that does all the packaging for this OS, is more stable, and has better dependency handling (indeed, promotes better dependency setting). It makes no sense to keep a less feature-rich and complete tool that has long been replaced. Space on the CD was the original reason (along with some canonical employee saying it was 'too complex' for some reason) I understood in my early ubuntu days that one should use either aptitude or apt/synaptic for package management as each build up there own database of installed apps/dependencies. So what are the cons of using aptitude with synaptic? I used aptitude initially before apt had the autoremove option as apt's --purge option didn't seem to work fully. Aptitude also had an amazing doc which once read is an eye opener. Apt's doc was poor and hasn't been updated since 2005 - if this was revised it would be a good step forward. james -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Apr 09, 2013, at 10:40 AM, LD 'Gus' Landis wrote: Personally, I look forward to the day of the return of the 24x80 CRT... but know I am in the minority.. for me the GUI is only something that gets in the way of me being productive. X is the bagel to the lox of Emacs. -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 10:25 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: For computer enthusiasts and power users, the CLI is great. But for the person who sees their computing device as a window to other activities, it is a huge distraction. Let's keep enthusiasts off Ubuntu, then? vQ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 05:13:48PM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote: On Apr 09, 2013, at 10:40 AM, LD 'Gus' Landis wrote: Personally, I look forward to the day of the return of the 24x80 CRT... but know I am in the minority.. for me the GUI is only something that gets in the way of me being productive. X is the bagel to the lox of Emacs. So, as someone who is right now typing into an XEmacs window and gets mail via mutt and filtered by procmail and edits their /etc/ files rather than blindly accept what some other programmer with a differing philosophy of the right way to do things wants... I am afraid I do not see the humor. As Larry Wall says, There are many ways to do it. Mine is one of them. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
