RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
CFPARAM NAME=CF5 Partner Hosting License cf_titanic - Let's hope not! -Original Message- From: Steve Pierce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 5:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License dBase and Sybase both thought they could increase their revenue by increasing their price and look where it got them. You can only increase your price when you don't have competition or you own significant market share. For example, has anyone tried to buy a copy of MS Word 2000 for $99 or $69 with a competitive upgrade. Not recently. When MS had competition, you could by Word dirt cheap. Now, no competition and Word is bundled with a bunch of other stuff you may not want and even upgrades can cost your $250 or more. SQL Server license with unlimited connections could be had for less than $1,000 5 years ago. Today, you can expect to pay $10,000 to $20,000 for a similar license. What changed, almost no competition in the NT-based SQL market. You could buy NT server for less than $500. Today, it can be $5,000. What changed, Novell is no longer a threat. Now these are all Microsoft examples but ask yourself, who is generally Allaire's competitor in this space. Is it IBM? How about OpenSource PHP? Perhaps OracleDev? So who has failed or is really struggling. Sybase, Ingres, cc:Mail, Banyan Vines, Wang Imaging and many more all tried substantial increase in licensing pricing when they ran into hard times. And look what happened. Who else is struggling? Well Allaire for one. Macromedia's performance hasn't been that stellar recently. Sure management can think that increasing price will increase revenue, but history of the software business will show that no company that has ever tried a significant price increase ultimately succeeded. The folks at Allaire and MM are very smart. But for them to believe that a price increase strategy is a good thing is for them to be so arrogant as to assume that all those other companies were run by stupid people. They weren't. In fact some of those same folks now work at Allaire/Macromedia. Cheers! - Steve -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Let me preface this by saying that it isn't meant as a comment about Macromedia but is a general comment They HAVE to know that abandoning us (and yes, I'm definitely in the low end as well) will only result in the death of CF. Publicly held software companies are beholden to their shareholders and the bottom line. If the management of the company thinks that they can make more money in a process that eliminates 90% of their small scale developers they will do it. No question. If the idea is sound in the long term is another matter entirely. And I think you can look at the history of software development firms to see that foresight and long-term planning are not necessarily skills that the management of software companies have in excess. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
On 4/28/01, Dave Watts penned: No, I don't think they're purposely trying to get out of anything. I think they're pursuing the share of the market that makes the most sense for them to gain, from their perspective. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent a disproportionate amount supporting ISPs' problems, with very little visible return. The historical direction of CF from version 3 onward has been aimed at the enterprise as best Allaire could, with the addition of shared memory, caching functionality, LDAP and X.500 security integration, and server clustering. It was never really intended for use in a shared-server environment: - there's only one server instance in memory, - it's always favored performance over stability, which is fine for dedicated applications, but not so good when any Joe can run code on a given box for a $50/year fee - individual applications can't have performance constraints placed on them From what I've seen Dave, 95% of the CF sites out there ARE on shared servers. I'd love to see some statistics on this. Furthermore, had Allaire spent any time addressing those points, the core product would probably have suffered as a result. Now, although Allaire hadn't made significantly more per unit selling CF to ISPs as opposed to others, I'll bet they've had to field more support calls as a result of those ISP sales, when someone wrote code without locks, or with infinite loops, or some other stupid server-crashing trick. I've never called Allaire for support. I get all the support I've even needed right here. Consider this: what's one of the more noticeable additions to CF 5 Enterprise? All of the Harvest components, which should significantly lower the costs for managing multiple applications per server. If they're going to release something which lowers the ISP's cost of business, why shouldn't MM feel entitled to a piece of that My point is, that if someone like myself, who may only have 2 or 3 apps run by others, why shouldn't I still be able to use CF Pro? I wouldn't be adverse to a reasonable price hike. But from 1,100 to 6,000 is a bitter pill for me to swallow. My main reason in buying CF and my own server was to be able to offer my customers hosting in an environment that I control, thereby being able to limit the server to 50-60 CF apps (or at whatever point it looked like performance was suffering), then buy another box and another license. If I have to do like the other hosts I've been with do, and put several hundred CF sites on a box, then I'm doing the same thing I invested all this money in to get away from. I'm not looking to make a huge profit. I'm looking to recoup my investment while being able to offer well performing, stable hosting to my clients. That will be hard to do spending 6k for a license for every 50 sites. -- Bud Schneehagen - Tropical Web Creations _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ColdFusion Solutions / eCommerce Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.twcreations.com/ 954.721.3452 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
On 4/28/01, Dave Watts penned: So, are you suggesting that the Allaire arm of MM should: 1. discharge everybody providing development and tech support services for CF, 2. not pay any of those people, 3. fund further development and support from the sales of their ubiquitous desktop OS (oh, wait a second...) Don't they charge for support? Of course they do, and I'm sure at a rate that is profitable for them. That should cover 1 and 2 nicely. As far as 3, it will be hard to fund development if nobody buys their product. -- Bud Schneehagen - Tropical Web Creations _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ColdFusion Solutions / eCommerce Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.twcreations.com/ 954.721.3452 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
You make good points, but in your opponent's favor, the bottom line is that some folks are always going to just be trendily contrarian. Maybe those people can afford the extra thousands of $$ for the new license (which, again, has NO MORE FEATURES than the less costly Enterprise version)? Or, maybe, they aren't affected by it? Bud wrote: On 4/28/01, Dave Watts penned: So, are you suggesting that the Allaire arm of MM should: 1. discharge everybody providing development and tech support services for CF, 2. not pay any of those people, 3. fund further development and support from the sales of their ubiquitous desktop OS (oh, wait a second...) Don't they charge for support? Of course they do, and I'm sure at a rate that is profitable for them. That should cover 1 and 2 nicely. As far as 3, it will be hard to fund development if nobody buys their product. -- Bud Schneehagen - Tropical Web Creations _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ColdFusion Solutions / eCommerce Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.twcreations.com/ 954.721.3452 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I think that if we had purchased Spectra at its price tag and then learned that there would not be future releases (and that some of its components would be in CF 5.0 at a lesser cost than Spectra), then we would be more The only Spectra 'component' in CF5 is cfdump. The plans are to move key components into a future version of CF, not CF5. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
We also have about 80% of our sites on shared servers, while the other 20% are mainly ColdFusion dedicated servers. It is smaller development companies like ours that could potentially be affected by the changes to the hosting licensing. BUT WAIT... Maybe we won't have to change our plans and investments just yet... A while ago, on this list, someone posted about a product called TagFusion, which has since had to change it's name to TagServlet (www.tagservlet.com), this could be an option for us. I have not tried the product out, but will look further into this. It would mean that we can still use our beloved, rapid, ColdFusion, without having to rush out and learn yet another language. I'd say a lot of the enterprise features of CF won't be found in TagServlet, but then are the smaller web development companies looking for those? If we want them, they are generally going to be used in an enterprise environment in which case a dedicated server will be used, and therefore no crazy hosting licensing! Has anybody tried TagServlet? Can anyone comment on it? N on 4/29/01 9:30 AM, Massimo, Tiziana e Federica at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the enterprise side of things, is anyone using PHP for enterprise-wide applications? If not, why not? Not only because I don't do enterprise-wide applications but also because scalability in PHP is very limited, no support for cluster etc... PHP is a very nice and still young tool, that is getting better, but, again, if you look at it, you can see that, for example, that session variables were added just on PHP 4, less than a year ago, and the way they works doesn't lend itself very well to scalability... As for me, 80% of my job on web applications is about small websites where I use CF and Access and rely on hosting companies for a decent service at 20-30$ a month. A crucial point for me to keep using CF instead of ASP (as the vast majority of my competitors) is that it doesn't add any additional costs for hosting if compared to ASP. The other 20% of my job is about larger apps, with SQL Server and CF, there some additional costs in hosting shouldn't cause me too much troubles, right now I am in the 50-100$ range, and my larger customers can live with it, maybe even with something more, but this is true only for the larger customers, higher costs on ISPs could easily make me move the smaller apps to a Unix/PHP/MySql solution, definitely cheap, not that easy to handle for my junior coworkers but also with some advantages (Unix stability, for most things MySql ways better than Access, great choice on ISPs). Well, I was learning PHP/MySql anyway, I think I will never stop loving CF, but I hope I will not see ISP's dropping support for it or asking too much money, in meantime, I will wait to see how things evolve. I live in a very small region (the italian part of Switzerland) where the vast majority of customers are local, small size companies, but I don't think I am alone in a similar scenario, depending a lot on the kind of hosting services ISPs can offer. Massimo Foti [EMAIL PROTECTED] My own Corner of the web http://www.massimocorner.com Dreamweaver, Ultradev and Fireworks goodies It should be this hole in the ozone layer But I am not the coder I use to be... ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
It would be a rare (read myopic) company indeed that didn't admit it received some very important insights about its business, including which business it should be in, from its customers. Go back and re-read Drucker's book on, was it called Marketing and Innovation ? best, paul At 10:46 PM 4/28/01 -0400, you wrote: That's funny. Everyone here (myself included I guess) seems to think that they know how to run the CF business. This keen business insight mostly sounds like don't raise my prices! ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Raymond, I was just going on what was posted in the earlier threads about the end of Spectra. That's why I added the with or without the facts comment. During that thread, there was much speculation about what would possibly be added to CF 5.0 (misinterpreted as future versions of CF), and I am not certain that was ever resolved. You have resolved this issue. My point was that the thread contiued before any real information was given (just as the hosting license thread). In the seven years that I spent as Public Relations Officer in a fire department, I can understand the frustrations of releasing information after a fire has started (such as the Partner email coming to the list prior to the FAQ being posted). However, we also were in the practice of fire prevention and gave out information to help prevent the fires. In this case, I think MM could have used some fire prevention. For example, telling someone not to throw a gasoline onto a fire before they do it, can be effective. Telling them not to throw gasoline onto a fire after they do it is kind of a moot point. This is similar to the case with the FAQ. A lot of the fuel for the Hosting Fire would have been prevented by giving out the FAQ up front (and somebody had to know those questions would be asked). However, giving out that information as a reaction to the fire is too late. It's a good effort, but we have already seen people who would have strung people up who mumbled the word PHP up as heretics that are now ready to learn it themselves. That is how far out of control the fire got before the wait an FAQ is coming and then hey, the FAQ is here messages came out. I do not think that all of the negativity towards MM is warranted. I do believe though that from a information/marketing position MM did not think out the release of information properly and did not prepare for the potential reaction that it got. 1. Somebody had to realize that an email addressed to the partners would eventually make the discussion lists. This is classic I got mine, did you get yours? 2. Somebody had to realize that the questions in the FAQ would arise? So, why not put the whole package together first before releasing the information right before the weekend. In doing so, much of the time spent on this thread may have minimalized. The same could have held true for the information that came out about Spectra. My issue is not with your product. I was pointing out that people were complaining about the price increase in CF 5.0 and that maybe there is a benefit to that whereas the people who already shelled out the big $$$ for Spectra are the ones who are really taking the hit. Again, it is an information issue. MM has to realize that the cf community is going to be cautious under the circumstances. And, the fact that they have acquired a company that is about to have a major release is no picnic for them either. Their best option would to inform, if not over-inform, the community with proper, well planned information releases that answer more questions than the usual 5 W's. MM has to gain the trust of the cf community and CF 5.0 is their prime opportunity to do so. So, giving out a little more information would have shown that MM is committed to the community because it took the time to consider all of the questions/concerns that could arise. Most people assume a price increase with an upgrade. Introducing a completely new licensing scheme a few days before the price list comes out without any prior information or supplemental information is alienating. And, to say that the information was not available because the decision was just recently made is just irresponsible and in that case any release of information should have waited. Just my $5.50 John Lucas [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.fastestisp.com -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 6:39 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License I think that if we had purchased Spectra at its price tag and then learned that there would not be future releases (and that some of its components would be in CF 5.0 at a lesser cost than Spectra), then we would be more The only Spectra 'component' in CF5 is cfdump. The plans are to move key components into a future version of CF, not CF5. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Or perhaps your competition is going to lie and continue hosting on the Pro version thus putting you at a severe disadvantage just because you tried to play by the rules and license the Enterprise hosting edition at 5 times the cost. But that would never happen, right? Steve -Original Message- From: Chris Colón [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 4:57 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License You make good points, but in your opponent's favor, the bottom line is that some folks are always going to just be trendily contrarian. Maybe those people can afford the extra thousands of $$ for the new license (which, again, has NO MORE FEATURES than the less costly Enterprise version)? Or, maybe, they aren't affected by it? Bud wrote: On 4/28/01, Dave Watts penned: So, are you suggesting that the Allaire arm of MM should: 1. discharge everybody providing development and tech support services for CF, 2. not pay any of those people, 3. fund further development and support from the sales of their ubiquitous desktop OS (oh, wait a second...) Don't they charge for support? Of course they do, and I'm sure at a rate that is profitable for them. That should cover 1 and 2 nicely. As far as 3, it will be hard to fund development if nobody buys their product. -- Bud Schneehagen - Tropical Web Creations _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ColdFusion Solutions / eCommerce Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.twcreations.com/ 954.721.3452 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I agree. We've got about 50 applications running (load balanced) across about 15 CF servers, and if I have to get 20 new licenses for every harebrained app we put together, we're done with CF. It's been a lot of work justifying our continued use of CF anyway. Some of the new features of 5.0 have help us keep it around, but if licensing changes, well, we're not renewing our subscriptions, and are going to move everything to ATGDynamo. MMAllaire should just go all the way with licensing and implement power units, or a per-user pricing like Broadvision... - Original Message - From: Angél Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 1:00 PM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License OUCH! I don't care if they lower pricing..but the one thing I like about CF is being able to host multiple apps from one server with no worries about Per use, or Per application. If we have to go through anything further in terms of licensing, or cost, or managing all this stuff then I'm afraid CF will lose a great deal of its attractiveness for me, and it will be time to start looking elsewhere for Rapid web application development. :-\ *sigh* I don't think I like how this merger is turning out. -Gel -Original Message- From: zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Or makes it easier to not use the technology at all. Look at the effect of their price increases on the use of Generator. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Don't panic literally this time! Check the latest message to this list from Macromedia... The hosting licensing isn't going to happen... Nor is the price increase! on 4/27/01 9:56 AM, Edward Smith at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. We've got about 50 applications running (load balanced) across about 15 CF servers, and if I have to get 20 new licenses for every harebrained app we put together, we're done with CF. It's been a lot of work justifying our continued use of CF anyway. Some of the new features of 5.0 have help us keep it around, but if licensing changes, well, we're not renewing our subscriptions, and are going to move everything to ATGDynamo. MMAllaire should just go all the way with licensing and implement power units, or a per-user pricing like Broadvision... - Original Message - From: Angél Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 1:00 PM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License OUCH! I don't care if they lower pricing..but the one thing I like about CF is being able to host multiple apps from one server with no worries about Per use, or Per application. If we have to go through anything further in terms of licensing, or cost, or managing all this stuff then I'm afraid CF will lose a great deal of its attractiveness for me, and it will be time to start looking elsewhere for Rapid web application development. :-\ *sigh* I don't think I like how this merger is turning out. -Gel -Original Message- From: zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Or makes it easier to not use the technology at all. Look at the effect of their price increases on the use of Generator. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
How many sites can you possibly host with CF on a server for $8.00 a month? Neil - Original Message - From: Varando Family [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 1:48 AM Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Well, to this I can honestly say that that is not true. We do CF Hosting and charge low fees, without any problems. We're currently averaging $8.00 a month (on a year plan) or in some cases users select the $5.00 for life plan that DOES include CF Hosting. So, if you really feel that the users must pay more, simply because the price is a bit more, than that's your opinion, which you are entitled to have. Pablo Varando CFM-Resources.Com, Corp. http://www.cfm-resources.com - Original Message - From: Neil H. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 1:39 AM Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License I take offense to that statement. No one says that Allaire shouldn't be able to eat dinner. I shouldn't have to suffer under some new licensing model. I made a commitment to the product (albeit 4.0 and 4.5, doubtfully 5.x). In order to stay competitive in the hosting market place I will be forced to upgrade to the latest version. The person who, unfortunately, will end up paying for this will be the end user. The price of hosting a CF plan will have to go up. It is just the nature of the game where cost increase and so does end user price. Its sad because people want to host CF sites and don't want the pay the $19.95 a month we charge now What we are saying is don't blatantly rob the people who are supporting the community. As a web host who hosts plenty of CF sites I find many people who want to use the product and develop code but are unable to afford their own license. As a hosting provider I shouldn't be forced to pay more. We have plans in place for current and future customers that would need to be completely reorganized with the newest edition of CF Server. One another note I thought I would let you know that CF has pulled me out of a deep sleep all too many times. Allaires product is good however it is far too dangrous when you have someone behind the wheel who doesn't have a drivers license. I rarely have that case with ASP. There is an Added comfort with ASP as it is designed and integrated by the OS manufacturer. Also it is not written to overrun CPU or memory with the simplest error. On a final note: ASP is free and there are no doubt or argument about it. It doesn't cost more to implement or download. Neil - Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 10:54 PM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License What MM should release an enterprise server version for the product for $695 with no support. If you want support buy an annual contract. Would you rather sell 10 copies at $695 with no support or 1 copy at $6,000? Well, if I'm paying a little per-copy to Netegrity, some more to Verity, I'd probably stick with the one copy. More margin. It's a good thing they bought Live Software and BrightTiger, so they wouldn't have to pay for those components, and even better that Allaire got bought by MM - have you any idea how expensive Generator 2 EE is? Yikes! Again, it's easy for us to all speculate on how easy it would be for MM to rule the world if they just did things our way. In my humble business experience, every business looks pretty easy until you start doing it yourself. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Steve, Excellent points. Might I also add that some of us ISPs are actually web development shops and hosting companies as well. In our web development shop, some of our designers are just getting into application development. And these guys are fast learners. I have pointed them towards CF because it is a good RAD environment for them to learn in. They have already built some pretty impressive CF apps running on SQL. But when we give a quote for a web development job, we factor in the CF work, the CF License, as well as the increase in hosting that a CF site will cause. In many cases, our larger clients opt for a dedicated server. Since the bottom fell out of the PC server market, it is not unheard of to build a CF server that costs $1500 that will run Win2K, SQL Server, and CF all on the same box. This actually works pretty well for a small application, and we are doing this now. But add up the software cost: CF Pro: $1200 M$ SQL Server (only 5 licenses): $1400 Win2K: $600 (ASP Included Free) As much as I hate a command line interface, Linux, PHP and MySQL are starting to look attractive. Especially for these smaller sites that need their own box for security, whatever. I agree with you Steve, MM should drop the price on CF Server to gain market share. Market share is important. And for god's sake if you are going to try to get more revenue from hosting companies, then at least provide tools to make managing the security of the sites easier. IMHO the sandbox feature should be standard across the board. Maybe they should merge Enterprise and Professional editions to accomplish this. John McKown, Owner Delaware.Net, Inc. 30 Old Rudnick Lane, Suite 200 Dover, DE 19901 phone: 302-736-5515 toll free: 888-432-7965 fax: 302-736-5945 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] icq: 1812513 -Original Message- From: Steve Pierce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License We have already been told by Allaire sales reps that there will substantial price increases for hosting companies with hundreds or thousands of domains/applications and that if we need licenses, the time to buy is now. This is from your own sales folks. Allaire has a well established history of announcing a fire sale on the current partner membership before a major price increase. This is a way to try and keep the partners from screaming too loud when the price change comes in and to generate a short spike in partner revenue before that program price is also increased. I would love to be surprised by a price decrease across the board for CF server licenses, but your own sales folks are telling us to buy now before the price goes up. Last time during the beta cycle we were promised sand boxing and other features that would make large scale hosting, ApSP, and shared hosting systems more secure. Then at the last moment, sand boxing and the other security enhancements were moved into a new version of software called CF Enterprise which was not covered by existing maintenance contracts for Pro. So folks had to scramble for new license agreements and when they did, they found that the price of CF went up with a five fold increase to some $5,000. Hence why many hosting companies are still with 4.0 and didn't upgrade to 4.5. Now taking a page from Microsoft's successful price increase of SQL Server to processor based and connection based licensing, McAllaire is looking to do the same thing. We have already heard from MM in past conference calls with analyst and at meetings about adaptive licensing, tiered licensing, and increasing license revenue streams. These appear to be code words for, the price is going up. The difference is Microsoft has not significant competition or alternative in the NT SQL market. ISP's are the backbone for CF deployment and for introducing new developers to CF. The price should actually be going down for these companies not up. When ASP and PHP are already free to hosting companies, it means a lot for hosting companies to spend real dollars to license CF. I recently watched one of Inline's largest hosting company shelve iHTML after a major price increase by Inline and there was hardly a whimper from the customer base. The ISP gave everyone a reasonable period of time to transition their apps. In the end, they lost just a handful of customers that said they wanted to stick with iHTML. CF is not invincible in the ISP market. Allaire can't depend on a huge outcry from customers to force Hosting companies to keep CF or lose a significant revenue stream. The stream is not that significant and there are other lower cost and just as effective options to CF. What do you expect would happen if an ISP told their customers that ASP and PHP host pricing will remain the same but the cost of CF hosting will increase by 25 to 50%? We have some early research that indicates as many as 70% of those customers would opt
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
About a year ago I was really frustrated with the hassles of managing clients web sites that my company had developed applications for. Most end users are not permitted to connect to their host providers RDS, rather they have the FTP flavor of managing there files. Some ISP's have control panels so you can at least manage the datasources but control panels for CF are far an few between. Sounds like there will be added support for the hosting environment in CF 5 but maybe the license will be prohibitive to the smaller ISP's. What I did a year ago to alleviate this problem was build a tool that the ISP of my client could install for free and then I would give my client a free license to abort the 30 day trial. I can manage the clients datasources, verity, advanced security, log files and edit cfm templates right online. There are a multitude of articles on query best practices and the custom tag model thus far is a pretty fair method of creating reusable code. I guess for now with the tools that I use I will be ok with not upgrading to CF 5. It will be interesting to see the outcome of this in the future. Bryan LaPlante Network Web Applications Inc. http://www.netwebapps.com - Original Message - From: John McKown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 10:40 AM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Steve, Excellent points. Might I also add that some of us ISPs are actually web development shops and hosting companies as well. In our web development shop, some of our designers are just getting into application development. And these guys are fast learners. I have pointed them towards CF because it is a good RAD environment for them to learn in. They have already built some pretty impressive CF apps running on SQL. But when we give a quote for a web development job, we factor in the CF work, the CF License, as well as the increase in hosting that a CF site will cause. In many cases, our larger clients opt for a dedicated server. Since the bottom fell out of the PC server market, it is not unheard of to build a CF server that costs $1500 that will run Win2K, SQL Server, and CF all on the same box. This actually works pretty well for a small application, and we are doing this now. But add up the software cost: CF Pro: $1200 M$ SQL Server (only 5 licenses): $1400 Win2K: $600 (ASP Included Free) As much as I hate a command line interface, Linux, PHP and MySQL are starting to look attractive. Especially for these smaller sites that need their own box for security, whatever. I agree with you Steve, MM should drop the price on CF Server to gain market share. Market share is important. And for god's sake if you are going to try to get more revenue from hosting companies, then at least provide tools to make managing the security of the sites easier. IMHO the sandbox feature should be standard across the board. Maybe they should merge Enterprise and Professional editions to accomplish this. John McKown, Owner Delaware.Net, Inc. 30 Old Rudnick Lane, Suite 200 Dover, DE 19901 phone: 302-736-5515 toll free: 888-432-7965 fax: 302-736-5945 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] icq: 1812513 -Original Message- From: Steve Pierce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License We have already been told by Allaire sales reps that there will substantial price increases for hosting companies with hundreds or thousands of domains/applications and that if we need licenses, the time to buy is now. This is from your own sales folks. Allaire has a well established history of announcing a fire sale on the current partner membership before a major price increase. This is a way to try and keep the partners from screaming too loud when the price change comes in and to generate a short spike in partner revenue before that program price is also increased. I would love to be surprised by a price decrease across the board for CF server licenses, but your own sales folks are telling us to buy now before the price goes up. Last time during the beta cycle we were promised sand boxing and other features that would make large scale hosting, ApSP, and shared hosting systems more secure. Then at the last moment, sand boxing and the other security enhancements were moved into a new version of software called CF Enterprise which was not covered by existing maintenance contracts for Pro. So folks had to scramble for new license agreements and when they did, they found that the price of CF went up with a five fold increase to some $5,000. Hence why many hosting companies are still with 4.0 and didn't upgrade to 4.5. Now taking a page from Microsoft's successful price increase of SQL Server to processor based and connection based licensing, McAllaire is looking to do the same thing. We have already heard from MM in past conference calls
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Perhaps I didn't read things quite correctly, but doesn't this development work in favor of those small developers who put a box somewhere and go into the business hosting the apps they develop? And doesn't this development also mean the financial barriers have been raised for a customer to transfer their CF app to a non-single-developer hosting provider? It's kind of like McDonalds vs Burger King. The cost barriers to entry for McDonalds to compete with BK by ripping out their grills and going to broiling are prohibitive. best, paul At 08:18 PM 4/27/01 -0400, you wrote: I'm betting the change isn't as drastic as we're making it out to be though. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
On 4/28/01, Paul Smith penned: Perhaps I didn't read things quite correctly, but doesn't this development work in favor of those small developers who put a box somewhere and go into the business hosting the apps they develop? I am basically such a developer. I may have 2 clients with access to my box who even know what ColdFusion is, other than what I tell them. So I'm fine with Pro rather than Enterprise. So you'd have to explain to me how spending $6,000 for functionality I don't require when the functionality I do require is available for $1,100 will work in my favor. And doesn't this development also mean the financial barriers have been raised for a customer to transfer their CF app to a non-single-developer hosting provider? The problem for me is not my existing clients. Everything I've built to date is built to run on 4.0/4.5. I'll keep them on a box with 4.5. But I won't be able to update that 4.5 to 5.x and take advantage of the new benefits for future sites. And when I fill up my current box and need a new box, then what if 4.5 isn't available? I'm not going to spend $6,000 because I'd have to raise hosting prices on that box and the average 45 per month I charge to host CF sites now is right at the upper limit of what an end user will pay that doesn't understand the technology or that doesn't have a very profitable website. So, I get out of the dynamic application hosting business or I take advantage of a free technology. -- Bud Schneehagen - Tropical Web Creations _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ColdFusion Solutions / eCommerce Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.twcreations.com/ 954.721.3452 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
You have to remember, MM wants to make money, not necessarily provide a better development environment for us. This can be achieved by bringing CF down to the point a general HTML developer can create a viable application. Two points: 1. You can take out MM from the above sentence, and replace it with any publicly-held company. That's the job of companies. Not to provide a better development environment, not to make the world a better place, but to make money. However they can make that money the easiest is the best path, and it's their responsibility to their stockholders to follow that path. Everything else is just a bonus. 2. CF, in my opinion, is at the point at which a general HTML developer can create a viable application, with just a little bit of knowledge. That's been one of the greatest strengths of CF since its creation. It doesn't require significant programming experience to get started. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
i don't think figleaf is a CF-only shop. autobytel is more or less a CF-only shop (i worked there for a year and a half) but they're not in the business of hosting applications for 3rd parties. my guess is this *probably* doesn't adversely affect the core business of either. No, the new CF 5 hosting licensing doesn't affect Fig Leaf in the least. We don't do hosting, and our applications end up being deployed on dedicated servers owned or leased by our clients at the hosting facilities of their choice. The cost of application server software ends up being a very small item in the total cost of developing, deploying and maintaining an enterprise application. And, not to make the very vocal portion of folks who have very strong negative opinions about this even angrier, the constant increase of the price of CF, as it continues to include new features for application development, isn't a bad thing for us. At this point, it looks like CF 5 will ship with Macromedia Generator 2 Enterprise Edition in-the-box. Since quite a few of our applications use both CF and Generator already (currently requiring separate installations and separate licensing), this is probably a good thing. As I see it, there simply isn't much other direction for CF to go except up (in feature-set and price). Comparisons with PHP and ASP are kind of silly, as neither of those products has a relationship to a vendor in the traditional sense. PHP is simply free, with no vendor at all, and ASP is even worse - a product that, despite having a vendor, doesn't exist to make money at all! ASP is just a way for Microsoft to sell more copies of NT/2K and Visual Studio. Macromedia doesn't exist in this sort of happy unreality - they've got a decent product in a pretty competitive environment, and they feel (rightly or wrongly) that their product's survival rests with the ability to compete at the high end, since the low-end products are free. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
My point was that the way I read it, you can run as many apps as you want on a CFPro 5 box, as long as you developed them. Did I read the FAQ wrong? best, paul At 02:13 PM 4/28/01 -0400, you wrote: On 4/28/01, Paul Smith penned: Perhaps I didn't read things quite correctly, but doesn't this development work in favor of those small developers who put a box somewhere and go into the business hosting the apps they develop? I am basically such a developer. I may have 2 clients with access to my box who even know what ColdFusion is, other than what I tell them. So I'm fine with Pro rather than Enterprise. So you'd have to explain to me how spending $6,000 for functionality I don't require when the functionality I do require is available for $1,100 will work in my favor. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Anyone interested in writing a new SAMS book: Teach your coldfusion developers PHP in 5 hours? No - because it'd be too hard. On the other hand, you could easily write a book teaching PHP developers CF in 5 hours. That's why CF is worth paying for, I suppose. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Bud [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 12:13 PM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License On 4/28/01, Paul Smith penned: Perhaps I didn't read things quite correctly, but doesn't this development work in favor of those small developers who put a box somewhere and go into the business hosting the apps they develop? I am basically such a developer. I may have 2 clients with access to my box who even know what ColdFusion is, other than what I tell them. So I'm fine with Pro rather than Enterprise. So you'd have to explain to me how spending $6,000 for functionality I don't require when the functionality I do require is available for $1,100 will work in my favor. And doesn't this development also mean the financial barriers have been raised for a customer to transfer their CF app to a non-single-developer hosting provider? The problem for me is not my existing clients. Everything I've built to date is built to run on 4.0/4.5. I'll keep them on a box with 4.5. But I won't be able to update that 4.5 to 5.x and take advantage of the new benefits for future sites. And when I fill up my current box and need a new box, then what if 4.5 isn't available? I'm not going to spend $6,000 because I'd have to raise hosting prices on that box and the average 45 per month I charge to host CF sites now is right at the upper limit of what an end user will pay that doesn't understand the technology or that doesn't have a very profitable website. So, I get out of the dynamic application hosting business or I take advantage of a free technology. Bud, You're in absolutely the worst possible position for this new development in creative pricing, and I know of _many_ developers hosting their clients' sites who are in the same position. Who can afford $6000 spread out over 30 or 40 web sites? Jim ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
You have to remember, MM wants to make money, not necessarily provide a better development environment for us. This can be achieved by bringing CF down to the point a general HTML developer can create a viable application. Two points: 1. You can take out MM from the above sentence, and replace it with any publicly-held company. That's the job of companies. Not to provide a better development environment, not to make the world a better place, but to make money. However they can make that money the easiest is the best path, and it's their responsibility to their stockholders to follow that path. Everything else is just a bonus. More than a few companies have priced themselves out their own market If they lose CF, considering that they picked up Allaire for a song, I suppose they'll survive. 2. CF, in my opinion, is at the point at which a general HTML developer can create a viable application, with just a little bit of knowledge. That's been one of the greatest strengths of CF since its creation. It doesn't require significant programming experience to get started. That general HTML developer is not one likely to be working on $30k sites to be hosted on their own servers. While CF has always appealed to this developer, Macromedia now wants to pull the rug out from under him. I don't get it. Jim ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 1:30 PM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License i don't think figleaf is a CF-only shop. autobytel is more or less a CF-only shop (i worked there for a year and a half) but they're not in the business of hosting applications for 3rd parties. my guess is this *probably* doesn't adversely affect the core business of either. No, the new CF 5 hosting licensing doesn't affect Fig Leaf in the least. We don't do hosting, and our applications end up being deployed on dedicated servers owned or leased by our clients at the hosting facilities of their choice. The cost of application server software ends up being a very small item in the total cost of developing, deploying and maintaining an enterprise application. And, not to make the very vocal portion of folks who have very strong negative opinions about this even angrier, the constant increase of the price of CF, as it continues to include new features for application development, isn't a bad thing for us. At this point, it looks like CF 5 will ship with Macromedia Generator 2 Enterprise Edition in-the-box. Since quite a few of our applications use both CF and Generator already (currently requiring separate installations and separate licensing), this is probably a good thing. As I see it, there simply isn't much other direction for CF to go except up (in feature-set and price). Comparisons with PHP and ASP are kind of silly, as neither of those products has a relationship to a vendor in the traditional sense. PHP is simply free, with no vendor at all, and ASP is even worse - a product that, despite having a vendor, doesn't exist to make money at all! ASP is just a way for Microsoft to sell more copies of NT/2K and Visual Studio. Macromedia doesn't exist in this sort of happy unreality - they've got a decent product in a pretty competitive environment, and they feel (rightly or wrongly) that their product's survival rests with the ability to compete at the high end, since the low-end products are free. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 So, you're saying Macromedia is _purposely_ trying to get out of being an application server for low-end, shared hosting? And they're doing this by making it prohibitively expensive for hosting providers. I think you're onto something. Jim ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Jim McAtee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 9:10 PM So, you're saying Macromedia is _purposely_ trying to get out of being an application server for low-end, shared hosting? And they're doing this by making it prohibitively expensive for hosting providers. I think you're onto something. Macromedia would be exceptionally unwise to fragment the market like that. MM do not have a monopoly on hosting middleware as we have been discussing, and thereasons that they have been able to charge a price when most other middleware are free, are not compelling enough to guarantee them market position in the future - especially with the power of M$ and ASP.Net which will be free to host, and the advancing PHP, and then there is XML of course and others. As I keep saying - look what happened to Netscape Navigator vis a vis Internet Explorer - Netscape's entire business model collapsed it seems because IE was bundled and free. The same applies to CF v ASP and to a lesser extent PHP. As I also keep saying - with apologies for being repetitive - MM would do much better to stay with their central business model as a producer of Web application development and productivity software, and make CF server free. By doing that it will be be much more widely deployed, will become a standard hosting option alongside ASP, PHP etc.. and with orders of magnitudes more developers resulting, and in turn purchasing Macromedia's development tools. MM's ownership of CF will give them a commanding position in the CF development market which people will pay for. If developers leave CF for ASP or PHP - they will never go back to CF. MM should be securing the future of CF as a vehicle to sell development tools, rather than hastening its demise. Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
So, you're saying Macromedia is _purposely_ trying to get out of being an application server for low-end, shared hosting? And they're doing this by making it prohibitively expensive for hosting providers. I think you're onto something. No, I don't think they're purposely trying to get out of anything. I think they're pursuing the share of the market that makes the most sense for them to gain, from their perspective. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent a disproportionate amount supporting ISPs' problems, with very little visible return. The historical direction of CF from version 3 onward has been aimed at the enterprise as best Allaire could, with the addition of shared memory, caching functionality, LDAP and X.500 security integration, and server clustering. It was never really intended for use in a shared-server environment: - there's only one server instance in memory, - it's always favored performance over stability, which is fine for dedicated applications, but not so good when any Joe can run code on a given box for a $50/year fee - individual applications can't have performance constraints placed on them Furthermore, had Allaire spent any time addressing those points, the core product would probably have suffered as a result. Now, although Allaire hadn't made significantly more per unit selling CF to ISPs as opposed to others, I'll bet they've had to field more support calls as a result of those ISP sales, when someone wrote code without locks, or with infinite loops, or some other stupid server-crashing trick. Consider this: what's one of the more noticeable additions to CF 5 Enterprise? All of the Harvest components, which should significantly lower the costs for managing multiple applications per server. If they're going to release something which lowers the ISP's cost of business, why shouldn't MM feel entitled to a piece of that, especially given the amount of programming effort that it entailed? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
As I keep saying - look what happened to Netscape Navigator vis a vis Internet Explorer - Netscape's entire business model collapsed it seems because IE was bundled and free. The same applies to CF v ASP and to a lesser extent PHP. I'm not sure what lesson can be drawn from this. CF isn't free, because some company, with employees and stockholders, makes it. ASP isn't free, in any meaningful sense, either - just try to download a version for the platform of your choice, if it isn't Windows. PHP is free because it doesn't come from a company, and there are no employees and stockholders to satisfy. There's also no need for the PHP development team to directly satisfy the PHP user community, although they may certainly want to, given the free time and resources. But if they don't, none of them will be out of a job, will they. So, are you suggesting that the Allaire arm of MM should: 1. discharge everybody providing development and tech support services for CF, 2. not pay any of those people, 3. fund further development and support from the sales of their ubiquitous desktop OS (oh, wait a second...) None of those sound too likely to me. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
2. CF, in my opinion, is at the point at which a general HTML developer can create a viable application, with just a little bit of knowledge. That's been one of the greatest strengths of CF since its creation. It doesn't require significant programming experience to get started. That general HTML developer is not one likely to be working on $30k sites to be hosted on their own servers. While CF has always appealed to this developer, Macromedia now wants to pull the rug out from under him. I don't get it. That general HTML developer might just be someone within a large organization who's responsible for a little section of the corporate intranet, though. In my experience, that's really been the core of CF's success. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of CF work is done completely away from the public eye, by people without much development experience. In my opinion, this has been the traditional target market for CF - the departmental/workgroup level within the larger enterprise. Unfortunately, given the relative glut of experienced developers and the continuing movement to centralize intranet data and standardize products used within the enterprise, CF has to pursue the enterprise-level products themselves. If MM doesn't do this, there simply won't be enough of a market to support CF, period. The CF advantage remains the ability to take someone with little development experience and make them productive quickly, which its competitors on the high end (BEA WebLogic, etc) will simply never have. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 9:51 PM I'm not sure what lesson can be drawn from this. CF isn't free, because some company, with employees and stockholders, makes it. ASP isn't free, in any meaningful sense, either - just try to download a version for the platform of your choice, if it isn't Windows. Well - it_is_Windows we are talking about for the most part here. Some people do Linux, but there again so does Apache and PHP. PHP is free because it doesn't come from a company, and there are no employees and stockholders to satisfy. That is of no importance to developers and application hosters. Linux is fundamentally free, but is now offered pre-installed by the likes of Dell, Compaq and IBM such is its importance. So, are you suggesting that the Allaire arm of MM should: 1. discharge everybody providing development and tech support services for CF, 2. not pay any of those people, 3. fund further development and support from the sales of their ubiquitous desktop OS (oh, wait a second...) With respect - you misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not suggesting they cease to develop or support CF at all - on the contrary - what I am saying is that they should re-position it away from a profit center to a marketing center. In other words - they should concentrate on getting CF as widely deployed as possible, so that they can use their inside knowledge of the product, and their other expertise, to sell developers the ultimate CF development and productivity tools at a premium price - it is all down to positioning. Or to put it another way - if CF was free and offered as a standard hosting option by_every_hosting service provider, there might be hundred of times more developers for it as a result, and if UltraDev was the definitive development environment they could sell hundreds of times more copies of UltraDev as a direct result - it is called creating a market or creating market demand. It certainly does not diminish the value of CF or those people working on it. The alternative route, which they appear to be embarking on, is to reduce the deployment of CF, which will reduce the demand for Studio and UltraDev etc. and threaten the very future of CF itself, leaving MM as a producer of development tools for ASP and PHP along with the others. Which makes the most commercial sense to you? Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
PHP is free because it doesn't come from a company, and there are no employees and stockholders to satisfy. That is of no importance to developers and application hosters. Linux is fundamentally free, but is now offered pre-installed by the likes of Dell, Compaq and IBM such is its importance. It may be of no importance to application hosters (if by that you mean essentially ISPs who will host whatever they can host as cheaply as possible), but I'd argue that developers, and people using applications, may care very much about who to call when they have trouble. More to the point, if you're concerned about the future of CF, you probably think that CF is a better product than PHP. Why is that? What makes it a better product? Could it be, perhaps, that there are people out there whose job it is to improve that product faster than other products get improved? On the enterprise side of things, is anyone using PHP for enterprise-wide applications? If not, why not? With respect - you misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not suggesting they cease to develop or support CF at all - on the contrary - what I am saying is that they should re-position it away from a profit center to a marketing center. In other words - they should concentrate on getting CF as widely deployed as possible, so that they can use their inside knowledge of the product, and their other expertise, to sell developers the ultimate CF development and productivity tools at a premium price - it is all down to positioning. No disrespect intended, but I think I understand perfectly what you're saying. However, I disagree. It is not all down to positioning. It is all down to making a return on investment. Your suggestion smacks of the general irrationality of the New Economy market. I think otherwise. If the product is worth using, it's worth selling. If it can't survive as a salable product, it's not worth using as a shill to get us to buy other things. Companies like Microsoft can do that and survive - companies like Netscape (from your previous example) can't. Or to put it another way - if CF was free and offered as a standard hosting option by_every_hosting service provider, there might be hundred of times more developers for it as a result, and if UltraDev was the definitive development environment they could sell hundreds of times more copies of UltraDev as a direct result - it is called creating a market or creating market demand. It certainly does not diminish the value of CF or those people working on it. Given that UltraDev can generate CF, ASP and JSP code, why should MM care then? It seems that there's likely to be a relatively inelastic demand for web development in the future, now that the fad part is over. There are only so many editors that can be sold. Since MM's design tools already cater to multiple platforms (and in fact have generally been popular for those other platforms), why shouldn't CF stand on its own weight? Finally, I'd be curious what percentage of web (internet/intranet) development money comes from ISP shared-server application development and hosting. My guess is that it's pretty small, but that's just my uneducated guess. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
i've been creating web-based apps since january 1996 and i started with coldfusion 1.0 when it came on floppies with website 1.0 from o'reilly. i remember when CF was US$995. it's increased 5-6 fold in price since then. i've never had a problem convincing clients to pay for it and making enough margin to own my own licenses for my own applications. maybe the market just doesn't need thousands and thousands of CF developers regardless of how many people want to be one, or how many people believe they deserve to be successful because they work hard. this new licensing doesn't affect me or my clients whatsoever now that i've read the FAQ. but if the price of CF is increased for my uses then i'll pay it. i'll echo dave's point: these companies are in business to make a profit, not break even. and i'll carry that one step further and say that's true for the small, medium, and large business represented on this list. if the increase in cost drives you out of the market, i hate to sound cold, but get used to it. price increases are part of business. and even though i can't think of one software package i use that's gotten cheaper since i started 5+ years ago, i can also say that my billing rates have increased much more significantly than my cost of doing business. if i were in this to pay my bills and scrape by, i might as well be flipping burgers. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 2:49 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License PHP is free because it doesn't come from a company, and there are no employees and stockholders to satisfy. That is of no importance to developers and application hosters. Linux is fundamentally free, but is now offered pre-installed by the likes of Dell, Compaq and IBM such is its importance. It may be of no importance to application hosters (if by that you mean essentially ISPs who will host whatever they can host as cheaply as possible), but I'd argue that developers, and people using applications, may care very much about who to call when they have trouble. More to the point, if you're concerned about the future of CF, you probably think that CF is a better product than PHP. Why is that? What makes it a better product? Could it be, perhaps, that there are people out there whose job it is to improve that product faster than other products get improved? On the enterprise side of things, is anyone using PHP for enterprise-wide applications? If not, why not? With respect - you misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not suggesting they cease to develop or support CF at all - on the contrary - what I am saying is that they should re-position it away from a profit center to a marketing center. In other words - they should concentrate on getting CF as widely deployed as possible, so that they can use their inside knowledge of the product, and their other expertise, to sell developers the ultimate CF development and productivity tools at a premium price - it is all down to positioning. No disrespect intended, but I think I understand perfectly what you're saying. However, I disagree. It is not all down to positioning. It is all down to making a return on investment. Your suggestion smacks of the general irrationality of the New Economy market. I think otherwise. If the product is worth using, it's worth selling. If it can't survive as a salable product, it's not worth using as a shill to get us to buy other things. Companies like Microsoft can do that and survive - companies like Netscape (from your previous example) can't. Or to put it another way - if CF was free and offered as a standard hosting option by_every_hosting service provider, there might be hundred of times more developers for it as a result, and if UltraDev was the definitive development environment they could sell hundreds of times more copies of UltraDev as a direct result - it is called creating a market or creating market demand. It certainly does not diminish the value of CF or those people working on it. Given that UltraDev can generate CF, ASP and JSP code, why should MM care then? It seems that there's likely to be a relatively inelastic demand for web development in the future, now that the fad part is over. There are only so many editors that can be sold. Since MM's design tools already cater to multiple platforms (and in fact have generally been popular for those other platforms), why shouldn't CF stand on its own weight? Finally, I'd be curious what percentage of web (internet/intranet) development money comes from ISP shared-server application development and hosting. My guess is that it's pretty small, but that's just my uneducated guess. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 10:48 PM It may be of no importance to application hosters (if by that you mean essentially ISPs who will host whatever they can host as cheaply as possible), but I'd argue that developers, and people using applications, may care very much about who to call when they have trouble. What I mean specifically, is that what really matters is productivity and cost effectiveness. In the case of ASP and PHP free is about as cost effective as it gets. More to the point, if you're concerned about the future of CF, you probably think that CF is a better product than PHP. Why is that? What makes it a better product? Could it be, perhaps, that there are people out there whose job it is to improve that product faster than other products get improved? I think we all know the answer to that - in terms of development speed i.e. productivity, CF is the best tool out there. I guess that contradicts my above statement to a point - but it it horses for courses - what price productivity? On the enterprise side of things, is anyone using PHP for enterprise-wide applications? If not, why not? Yet. Ask the same question of ASP and in particular intentions for ASP.NET. No disrespect intended, but I think I understand perfectly what you're saying. However, I disagree. It is not all down to positioning. It is all down to making a return on investment. Which in turn is down to positioning. You can have the best product inthe world, at apremium price - but if no one purchases it you make 100% of nothing. ROI is relative to all of the factors involved - not just one dynamic - price in this case. Your suggestion smacks of the general irrationality of the New Economy market. I think otherwise. If the product is worth using, it's worth selling. Really - don't you think ASP is worth using? Internet Explorer? Outlook Express? If it can't survive as a salable product, it's not worth using as a shill to get us to buy other things. Companies like Microsoft can do that and survive - companies like Netscape (from your previous example) can't. I disagree :-) Given that UltraDev can generate CF, ASP and JSP code, why should MM care then? Why indeed? But as we have already said - CF could and should be the development product of choice, and MM are in the best position to capitalise on that by way of development tools. It seems that there's likely to be a relatively inelastic demand for web development in the future, now that the fad part is over. There are only so many editors that can be sold. Since MM's design tools already cater to multiple platforms (and in fact have generally been popular for those other platforms), why shouldn't CF stand on its own weight? Because although CF is better, it is not better enough for it to stand on its own weight - at a premium price. Finally, I'd be curious what percentage of web (internet/intranet) development money comes from ISP shared-server application development and hosting. My guess is that it's pretty small, but that's just my uneducated guess. So would I. I would also be most interested to see a breakdown of sales of Cold Fusion Server (in all of its forms) and Ultradev. Why? e.g. Because if CF was free, and a hundred times or more developers used it as a direct result, (there might well be multiple developers, and multiple licensed copies of Ultradev per server), and which resulted in the sales of a hundred times or more copies of Ultradev - I would like to see where the most profit would come from. My guess is that it would easily be the latter. Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
On the enterprise side of things, is anyone using PHP for enterprise-wide applications? If not, why not? Not only because I don't do enterprise-wide applications but also because scalability in PHP is very limited, no support for cluster etc... PHP is a very nice and still young tool, that is getting better, but, again, if you look at it, you can see that, for example, that session variables were added just on PHP 4, less than a year ago, and the way they works doesn't lend itself very well to scalability... As for me, 80% of my job on web applications is about small websites where I use CF and Access and rely on hosting companies for a decent service at 20-30$ a month. A crucial point for me to keep using CF instead of ASP (as the vast majority of my competitors) is that it doesn't add any additional costs for hosting if compared to ASP. The other 20% of my job is about larger apps, with SQL Server and CF, there some additional costs in hosting shouldn't cause me too much troubles, right now I am in the 50-100$ range, and my larger customers can live with it, maybe even with something more, but this is true only for the larger customers, higher costs on ISPs could easily make me move the smaller apps to a Unix/PHP/MySql solution, definitely cheap, not that easy to handle for my junior coworkers but also with some advantages (Unix stability, for most things MySql ways better than Access, great choice on ISPs). Well, I was learning PHP/MySql anyway, I think I will never stop loving CF, but I hope I will not see ISP's dropping support for it or asking too much money, in meantime, I will wait to see how things evolve. I live in a very small region (the italian part of Switzerland) where the vast majority of customers are local, small size companies, but I don't think I am alone in a similar scenario, depending a lot on the kind of hosting services ISPs can offer. Massimo Foti [EMAIL PROTECTED] My own Corner of the web http://www.massimocorner.com Dreamweaver, Ultradev and Fireworks goodies It should be this hole in the ozone layer But I am not the coder I use to be... ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I am sorry, but I am actually sure you are overestimating the amount of people that buy Ultradev for its abilities to write CFML. The vast majority of Ultradev users are ASP developers, I would say more than 80%, I don't have exact numbers, but I use Ultradev since its early days, even before is was available to the public, and follow all the forums dedicated to it, I even do seminars for Macromedia Italy about the baby, in fact, Macromedia people kindly ask me to run my demos for Ultradev on ASP... (a pain in the ass for a CFML geek like me). Apart from that, even if I like Ultradev a lot, and I see some very great potential in it, it still has some *serious* issues on CFML, issues that are not inside its ASP or JSP implementations, it may sound silly or hard to believe, but the language that Ultradev really got wrong is CFML... Massimo Foti [EMAIL PROTECTED] My own Corner of the web http://www.massimocorner.com Dreamweaver, Ultradev and Fireworks goodies It should be this hole in the ozone layer But I am not the coder I use to be... Adrian Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:00ac01c0d037$9b0f8c40 I would also be most interested to see a breakdown of sales of Cold Fusion Server (in all of its forms) and Ultradev. Why? e.g. Because if CF was free, and a hundred times or more developers used it as a direct result, (there might well be multiple developers, and multiple licensed copies of Ultradev per server), and which resulted in the sales of a hundred times or more copies of Ultradev - I would like to see where the most profit would come from. My guess is that it would easily be the latter. Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I agree Dave. I was just trying to lighten the mood (on Friday) with the book comment. Our position is to wait and see. I think that if we had purchased Spectra at its price tag and then learned that there would not be future releases (and that some of its components would be in CF 5.0 at a lesser cost than Spectra), then we would be more concerned about getting what we are paying for. I think there may be some enterprise CEO's with a case of the Monday's when they hear that (with or without the facts behind it). john -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 2:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Anyone interested in writing a new SAMS book: Teach your coldfusion developers PHP in 5 hours? No - because it'd be too hard. On the other hand, you could easily write a book teaching PHP developers CF in 5 hours. That's why CF is worth paying for, I suppose. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
You wrote: All of the Harvest components, which should significantly lower the costs for managing multiple applications per server. If they're going to release something which lowers the ISP's cost of business, why shouldn't MM feel entitled to a piece of that, especially given the amount of programming effort that it entailed? Isn't that the rub. The vendor is telling me that I am going to save money so charge me more. But the vendor doesn't know how to run my business. In fact the vendor often struggles with keeping their own operation up. How many times have we seen posts, Is the Allaire site down? Moreover, there is no guarantee that it will save money. There are still significant and critical bugs in CF 4.5 that have not been fixed. DO you really think you are going to save money going to a .0 release from Allaire. Their 4.0 was a unmitigated disaster. 3.0 was almost as bad. It took two service packs before the darn thing was stable enough to use in production. Don't expect anything better with CF5. If you deploy CF5 at release date expect to spend a lot of time and money paying to be part of the extended beta test program. When you go by a brand new car, do you trust the dealer to tell you that it is reliable and you will save money. No, of course not. You ask them to show you proof and you get independent reporting. But here you are saying that we should trust Allaire to save us money because they know what they are doing when it comes to shared hosting. I remember an earlier conversation with Jeremy when I was trying to deploy the very first shared hosting of CF with version 1.0. His response to me is 1.0 isn't designed to work with multiple hosts and why would you want to do that. Do you really think people will pay you to host applications? When 1.5 came out, we were finally able to start shared hosting on a national level but it wasn't until 2.01 that Allaire finally had an environment that would work in a shared hosting environment. It was almost two years before they realized that people would pay for shared hosting. Even then applications like Forums were never written to work in a shared hosting environment. Allaire has been slow to understand this market much less embrace it. Now you are telling me that they understand it so well that they want to save me money by raising the price for hosting by 300%. Yeah right!!! - Steve -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 4:41 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License So, you're saying Macromedia is _purposely_ trying to get out of being an application server for low-end, shared hosting? And they're doing this by making it prohibitively expensive for hosting providers. I think you're onto something. No, I don't think they're purposely trying to get out of anything. I think they're pursuing the share of the market that makes the most sense for them to gain, from their perspective. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent a disproportionate amount supporting ISPs' problems, with very little visible return. The historical direction of CF from version 3 onward has been aimed at the enterprise as best Allaire could, with the addition of shared memory, caching functionality, LDAP and X.500 security integration, and server clustering. It was never really intended for use in a shared-server environment: - there's only one server instance in memory, - it's always favored performance over stability, which is fine for dedicated applications, but not so good when any Joe can run code on a given box for a $50/year fee - individual applications can't have performance constraints placed on them Furthermore, had Allaire spent any time addressing those points, the core product would probably have suffered as a result. Now, although Allaire hadn't made significantly more per unit selling CF to ISPs as opposed to others, I'll bet they've had to field more support calls as a result of those ISP sales, when someone wrote code without locks, or with infinite loops, or some other stupid server-crashing trick. Consider this: what's one of the more noticeable additions to CF 5 Enterprise? All of the Harvest components, which should significantly lower the costs for managing multiple applications per server. If they're going to release something which lowers the ISP's cost of business, why shouldn't MM feel entitled to a piece of that, especially given the amount of programming effort that it entailed? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
It may be of no importance to application hosters (if by that you mean essentially ISPs who will host whatever they can host as cheaply as possible), but I'd argue that developers, and people using applications, may care very much about who to call when they have trouble. What I mean specifically, is that what really matters is productivity and cost effectiveness. In the case of ASP and PHP free is about as cost effective as it gets. Let's say that those are, in fact, the only two things that matter: productivity and cost-effectiveness. Do you measure either in the purchase price alone of the products? Are ASP and PHP, because they're free, more cost-effective by definition? No, they're not. For many people, CF will remain far more cost-effective, for various reasons. On the enterprise side of things, is anyone using PHP for enterprise-wide applications? If not, why not? Yet. Again, if not, why not? I've got a potential reason - PHP, while it's good, and free, and multi-platform, still doesn't have all of the functionality and abstraction that CF does. It's harder, and in many ways does less. Ask the same question of ASP and in particular intentions for ASP.NET. Microsoft has always had intentions towards the enterprise. People have been building enterprise applications with ASP for quite some time. In some respects, it's better suited for that than CF. Again, Microsoft isn't selling ASP - it's using it as additional leverage for the whole Microsoft enterprise line, where you'll use only NT/2K/XP servers, running SQL 2000 for internal data storage, using COM+ as the middle-tier application layer between your admittedly-hard-to-maintain ASP scripts and your databases, using MSMQ and Site Server to construct loosely-joined logic across multiple diverse physical locations within your enterprise, using IE as the client interface to everything, using BizTalk and SOAP to exchange data with the poor unfortunates in the rest of the world who haven't bought the entire MS collection. Microsoft is in the unique position of really having only one product to sell - but it's a doozy. The only way they can sell more of that product is to add more and more on top of it. Macromedia, on the other hand, can't have a ten-year plan for their application server. Their product IS the application server. It seems that there's likely to be a relatively inelastic demand for web development in the future, now that the fad part is over. There are only so many editors that can be sold. Since MM's design tools already cater to multiple platforms (and in fact have generally been popular for those other platforms), why shouldn't CF stand on its own weight? Because although CF is better, it is not better enough for it to stand on its own weight - at a premium price. If you really believe that, you probably should prepare for the inevitable and start learning something else. If it's not good enough to buy, it's not good enough to use. If the product is worth using, it's worth selling. Really - don't you think ASP is worth using? Internet Explorer? Outlook Express? If I had to choose between giving money to Netscape or MS for a browser, I'd give it to MS. The fact is, though, that MS is using IE, etc, as an incentive to get me to use Windows on every possible client and server platform. You, on the other hand, suggest that MM give away their flagship server-side product to sell editors! By your analogy, Microsoft should sell IE instead of Windows, and give Windows away for free. Finally, I'd be curious what percentage of web (internet/intranet) development money comes from ISP shared-server application development and hosting. My guess is that it's pretty small, but that's just my uneducated guess. So would I. Well, if so, what's the incentive to give CF away? If it's being bought by private companies for internal/external use, and they're willing to pay (which is obviously what MM thinks - and I'd guess they've done some research here) then why shouldn't they charge whatever they like? I would also be most interested to see a breakdown of sales of Cold Fusion Server (in all of its forms) and Ultradev. Why? e.g. Because if CF was free, and a hundred times or more developers used it as a direct result, (there might well be multiple developers, and multiple licensed copies of Ultradev per server), and which resulted in the sales of a hundred times or more copies of Ultradev - I would like to see where the most profit would come from. My guess is that it would easily be the latter. There are a couple of potential problems there. First, I think it would be very unlikely that CF developers would grow a hundredfold. There just aren't that many developers. In case you hadn't noticed, there's been a slight economic downturn, and the web development skills market is probably near-saturated right now. Second, CF != Ultradev. CF's popularity
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
What MM should release an enterprise server version for the product for $695 with no support. If you want support buy an annual contract. Would you rather sell 10 copies at $695 with no support or 1 copy at $6,000? Then get in the business of developing training classes, books, development tools, and all the other gleeples that the corporate world loves to buy. But make it very cost effective for ISP's to deploy massive server farms in the field for shared and dedicated hosting. It ought to be an automatic deal, when setting up a server farm you buy the hardware, the OS, install a webserver and then CF. You want to be at a point where it is just automatic, you wouldn't think of deploying a server without CF support. Just as almost anyone will tell you right now, if you want to be into shared hosting on any sort of scale, you better support FrontPage. There is plenty of market to be had in a reasonably priced software product that facilitates rapid deployment of customized web apps. What MM fails to realize is that most employees can buy a software package for under $1,000 with 'mad' money. But anything over $5,000 in most corporate and government sites is considered a capital investment, and so it requires different level of approvals and accounting. Look at all the traffic this price increase has generated. Now think for a moment, what if MM had released the same FAQ on Friday saying: CF5 Enterprise is going to be $695.00 Them MM should announce, We don't offer support, you get free upgrades to service packs, but you will pay retail for any major updates or need to buy an annual license, and each copy has a license checker to prevent running the same copy on multiple servers. That would force a number of folks to get their licenses in order, especially at hosting companies. If MM made this announcement, all of sudden you would think that MM is the smartest company in the world. That MM is the only company with a vision to understand this development market and all us would be dancing around patting ourselves on the back for being so smart for buying CF in the first place. But that didn't happen this weekend. Yet I could have sworn I heard a quiet whew up in Redmond just after the CF FAQ was published. Logic says if you need to generate more revenue raise your price. I can show you a number of companies that when they tried to use that logic, and their products did not dominate the market, they failed. If McAllaire wants to survive and better still grow, they need to lower their price and increase market share. I am not advocating giving the software away, that is stupid. But it needs to be priced from $495 to $995 and then sell the living daylights out of the stuff. later, - Steve -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 4:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License As I keep saying - look what happened to Netscape Navigator vis a vis Internet Explorer - Netscape's entire business model collapsed it seems because IE was bundled and free. The same applies to CF v ASP and to a lesser extent PHP. I'm not sure what lesson can be drawn from this. CF isn't free, because some company, with employees and stockholders, makes it. ASP isn't free, in any meaningful sense, either - just try to download a version for the platform of your choice, if it isn't Windows. PHP is free because it doesn't come from a company, and there are no employees and stockholders to satisfy. There's also no need for the PHP development team to directly satisfy the PHP user community, although they may certainly want to, given the free time and resources. But if they don't, none of them will be out of a job, will they. So, are you suggesting that the Allaire arm of MM should: 1. discharge everybody providing development and tech support services for CF, 2. not pay any of those people, 3. fund further development and support from the sales of their ubiquitous desktop OS (oh, wait a second...) None of those sound too likely to me. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
When you go by a brand new car, do you trust the dealer to tell you that it is reliable and you will save money. No, of course not. You ask them to show you proof and you get independent reporting. But here you are saying that we should trust Allaire to save us money because they know what they are doing when it comes to shared hosting. I went over my prior email pretty thoroughly, and couldn't find trust Allaire anywhere in it. Whew. Nor did I say that they knew what they're doing when it comes to shared hosting. To the best of my knowledge, they don't do much hosting at Allaire, and not so much CF development either. What I did say was, that like any other vendor, if they add stuff to their product and they think that stuff makes the product worth more, they're probably going to feel entitled to raise the price of their product. Anyone surprised by that? ... But the vendor doesn't know how to run my business. That's funny. Everyone here (myself included I guess) seems to think that they know how to run the CF business. This keen business insight mostly sounds like don't raise my prices! Just like with a new car, though, caveat emptor. You always have the choice not to buy. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
you wrote: In case you hadn't noticed, there's been a slight economic downturn, and the web development skills market is probably near-saturated right now. If that is the case, why is Allaire selling out every conference and almost every tech class they hold. - Steve -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 10:35 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License It may be of no importance to application hosters (if by that you mean essentially ISPs who will host whatever they can host as cheaply as possible), but I'd argue that developers, and people using applications, may care very much about who to call when they have trouble. What I mean specifically, is that what really matters is productivity and cost effectiveness. In the case of ASP and PHP free is about as cost effective as it gets. Let's say that those are, in fact, the only two things that matter: productivity and cost-effectiveness. Do you measure either in the purchase price alone of the products? Are ASP and PHP, because they're free, more cost-effective by definition? No, they're not. For many people, CF will remain far more cost-effective, for various reasons. On the enterprise side of things, is anyone using PHP for enterprise-wide applications? If not, why not? Yet. Again, if not, why not? I've got a potential reason - PHP, while it's good, and free, and multi-platform, still doesn't have all of the functionality and abstraction that CF does. It's harder, and in many ways does less. Ask the same question of ASP and in particular intentions for ASP.NET. Microsoft has always had intentions towards the enterprise. People have been building enterprise applications with ASP for quite some time. In some respects, it's better suited for that than CF. Again, Microsoft isn't selling ASP - it's using it as additional leverage for the whole Microsoft enterprise line, where you'll use only NT/2K/XP servers, running SQL 2000 for internal data storage, using COM+ as the middle-tier application layer between your admittedly-hard-to-maintain ASP scripts and your databases, using MSMQ and Site Server to construct loosely-joined logic across multiple diverse physical locations within your enterprise, using IE as the client interface to everything, using BizTalk and SOAP to exchange data with the poor unfortunates in the rest of the world who haven't bought the entire MS collection. Microsoft is in the unique position of really having only one product to sell - but it's a doozy. The only way they can sell more of that product is to add more and more on top of it. Macromedia, on the other hand, can't have a ten-year plan for their application server. Their product IS the application server. It seems that there's likely to be a relatively inelastic demand for web development in the future, now that the fad part is over. There are only so many editors that can be sold. Since MM's design tools already cater to multiple platforms (and in fact have generally been popular for those other platforms), why shouldn't CF stand on its own weight? Because although CF is better, it is not better enough for it to stand on its own weight - at a premium price. If you really believe that, you probably should prepare for the inevitable and start learning something else. If it's not good enough to buy, it's not good enough to use. If the product is worth using, it's worth selling. Really - don't you think ASP is worth using? Internet Explorer? Outlook Express? If I had to choose between giving money to Netscape or MS for a browser, I'd give it to MS. The fact is, though, that MS is using IE, etc, as an incentive to get me to use Windows on every possible client and server platform. You, on the other hand, suggest that MM give away their flagship server-side product to sell editors! By your analogy, Microsoft should sell IE instead of Windows, and give Windows away for free. Finally, I'd be curious what percentage of web (internet/intranet) development money comes from ISP shared-server application development and hosting. My guess is that it's pretty small, but that's just my uneducated guess. So would I. Well, if so, what's the incentive to give CF away? If it's being bought by private companies for internal/external use, and they're willing to pay (which is obviously what MM thinks - and I'd guess they've done some research here) then why shouldn't they charge whatever they like? I would also be most interested to see a breakdown of sales of Cold Fusion Server (in all of its forms) and Ultradev. Why? e.g. Because if CF was free, and a hundred times or more developers used it as a direct result, (there might well be multiple developers, and multiple licensed copies of Ultradev per server), and which resulted in the sales of a hundred times or more copies of Ultradev - I would like to see where the most profit would
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
What MM should release an enterprise server version for the product for $695 with no support. If you want support buy an annual contract. Would you rather sell 10 copies at $695 with no support or 1 copy at $6,000? Well, if I'm paying a little per-copy to Netegrity, some more to Verity, I'd probably stick with the one copy. More margin. It's a good thing they bought Live Software and BrightTiger, so they wouldn't have to pay for those components, and even better that Allaire got bought by MM - have you any idea how expensive Generator 2 EE is? Yikes! Again, it's easy for us to all speculate on how easy it would be for MM to rule the world if they just did things our way. In my humble business experience, every business looks pretty easy until you start doing it yourself. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
In case you hadn't noticed, there's been a slight economic downturn, and the web development skills market is probably near-saturated right now. If that is the case, why is Allaire selling out every conference and almost every tech class they hold. And if this is the case then how does raising the price of hosting CF apps help in this situation? More developers means less income means that CF developers who aren't corporate developers are now more cost conscious than before. Seems like a bad time to raise your prices. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 1. You can take out MM from the above sentence, and replace it with any publicly-held company. That's the job of companies. Not to provide a better development environment, not to make the world a better place, but to make money. However they can make that money the easiest is the best path, and it's their responsibility to their stockholders to follow that path. Everything else is just a bonus. -Original Message- Unfortunately, knowing the realities of publicly traded companies first hand, I have to, albeit reluctantly, agree with the facts of your statement. I find it sad that we have developed a system where the anonymity that results from being one of the many stockholders pushes profit at all cost and does not set a tone to ...make the world a better place. Sometimes I think that the bonus should be to make the profit. Of course I then look at my mutual finds, stocks, and my business plan and get back to the real world, hopefully tempered by the mental exercise. You can't change the world all in one day. Best Regards, Dennis Powers UXB Internet (203) 879-2844 http://www.uxbinfo.com/ ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I don't know about all this stuff with Macromedia. I think they are trying to target the hosting providers because they think they can make money from them. I think what the real problem is this, will ISP pay more to get these added benefits. What about cfm-resources.com. Encouraging a whole new breed of cf developers for nothing. Pablo would have to pay more money for his new CF5. Who is gonna really be hurt by this? The answer is everyone. Most developers are getting started by making a small site on a hosting provider. If these new people don't want to pay even more to program and just go to ASP, what kind of growth will our field be getting. These new features may be awesome but if you're charging someone now 12g's because they have 4 processors, when before it was only gonna be 5g's which do you think they will go with. And also all those hosting sites that charge and have a subscription. They were expecting to pay no more money for any of these benefits and now they will. I think Macromedia is kidding themselves when they think these hosting providers are making thier money off of CF. Most have done it because the smaller companies couldn't afford to buy CF. So they stepped up, bought CF, and charged more to do it. So now instead of $50 a month how much will it be for someone like me $70, $80, $90. That's when I draw the line. Sure Macromedia will get people to buy these new licenses, but at what cost. I just can't agree with you this time Dave. I know they have to make money and they have to answer to stock holders, but at least they should have looked at the field more. I think they are just opening a whole bowl of worms with this and we all see it because we know what is going to happen. Bob Everland -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 4:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License As I keep saying - look what happened to Netscape Navigator vis a vis Internet Explorer - Netscape's entire business model collapsed it seems because IE was bundled and free. The same applies to CF v ASP and to a lesser extent PHP. I'm not sure what lesson can be drawn from this. CF isn't free, because some company, with employees and stockholders, makes it. ASP isn't free, in any meaningful sense, either - just try to download a version for the platform of your choice, if it isn't Windows. PHP is free because it doesn't come from a company, and there are no employees and stockholders to satisfy. There's also no need for the PHP development team to directly satisfy the PHP user community, although they may certainly want to, given the free time and resources. But if they don't, none of them will be out of a job, will they. So, are you suggesting that the Allaire arm of MM should: 1. discharge everybody providing development and tech support services for CF, 2. not pay any of those people, 3. fund further development and support from the sales of their ubiquitous desktop OS (oh, wait a second...) None of those sound too likely to me. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I take offense to that statement. No one says that Allaire shouldn't be able to eat dinner. I shouldn't have to suffer under some new licensing model. I made a commitment to the product (albeit 4.0 and 4.5, doubtfully 5.x). In order to stay competitive in the hosting market place I will be forced to upgrade to the latest version. The person who, unfortunately, will end up paying for this will be the end user. The price of hosting a CF plan will have to go up. It is just the nature of the game where cost increase and so does end user price. Its sad because people want to host CF sites and don't want the pay the $19.95 a month we charge now What we are saying is don't blatantly rob the people who are supporting the community. As a web host who hosts plenty of CF sites I find many people who want to use the product and develop code but are unable to afford their own license. As a hosting provider I shouldn't be forced to pay more. We have plans in place for current and future customers that would need to be completely reorganized with the newest edition of CF Server. One another note I thought I would let you know that CF has pulled me out of a deep sleep all too many times. Allaires product is good however it is far too dangrous when you have someone behind the wheel who doesn't have a drivers license. I rarely have that case with ASP. There is an Added comfort with ASP as it is designed and integrated by the OS manufacturer. Also it is not written to overrun CPU or memory with the simplest error. On a final note: ASP is free and there are no doubt or argument about it. It doesn't cost more to implement or download. Neil - Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 10:54 PM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License What MM should release an enterprise server version for the product for $695 with no support. If you want support buy an annual contract. Would you rather sell 10 copies at $695 with no support or 1 copy at $6,000? Well, if I'm paying a little per-copy to Netegrity, some more to Verity, I'd probably stick with the one copy. More margin. It's a good thing they bought Live Software and BrightTiger, so they wouldn't have to pay for those components, and even better that Allaire got bought by MM - have you any idea how expensive Generator 2 EE is? Yikes! Again, it's easy for us to all speculate on how easy it would be for MM to rule the world if they just did things our way. In my humble business experience, every business looks pretty easy until you start doing it yourself. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Well, to this I can honestly say that that is not true. We do CF Hosting and charge low fees, without any problems. We're currently averaging $8.00 a month (on a year plan) or in some cases users select the $5.00 for life plan that DOES include CF Hosting. So, if you really feel that the users must pay more, simply because the price is a bit more, than that's your opinion, which you are entitled to have. Pablo Varando CFM-Resources.Com, Corp. http://www.cfm-resources.com - Original Message - From: Neil H. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 1:39 AM Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License I take offense to that statement. No one says that Allaire shouldn't be able to eat dinner. I shouldn't have to suffer under some new licensing model. I made a commitment to the product (albeit 4.0 and 4.5, doubtfully 5.x). In order to stay competitive in the hosting market place I will be forced to upgrade to the latest version. The person who, unfortunately, will end up paying for this will be the end user. The price of hosting a CF plan will have to go up. It is just the nature of the game where cost increase and so does end user price. Its sad because people want to host CF sites and don't want the pay the $19.95 a month we charge now What we are saying is don't blatantly rob the people who are supporting the community. As a web host who hosts plenty of CF sites I find many people who want to use the product and develop code but are unable to afford their own license. As a hosting provider I shouldn't be forced to pay more. We have plans in place for current and future customers that would need to be completely reorganized with the newest edition of CF Server. One another note I thought I would let you know that CF has pulled me out of a deep sleep all too many times. Allaires product is good however it is far too dangrous when you have someone behind the wheel who doesn't have a drivers license. I rarely have that case with ASP. There is an Added comfort with ASP as it is designed and integrated by the OS manufacturer. Also it is not written to overrun CPU or memory with the simplest error. On a final note: ASP is free and there are no doubt or argument about it. It doesn't cost more to implement or download. Neil - Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 10:54 PM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License What MM should release an enterprise server version for the product for $695 with no support. If you want support buy an annual contract. Would you rather sell 10 copies at $695 with no support or 1 copy at $6,000? Well, if I'm paying a little per-copy to Netegrity, some more to Verity, I'd probably stick with the one copy. More margin. It's a good thing they bought Live Software and BrightTiger, so they wouldn't have to pay for those components, and even better that Allaire got bought by MM - have you any idea how expensive Generator 2 EE is? Yikes! Again, it's easy for us to all speculate on how easy it would be for MM to rule the world if they just did things our way. In my humble business experience, every business looks pretty easy until you start doing it yourself. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
But here is the rub. What about those companies that host 30 or 40,000 CF websites in the ultra competitive $9.95 per month. A $5 increase per domain is 50% increase in costs. Too many users will just bail. McAllaire never understood that it was the ISP's that offered low cost CF hosting created a small army of CF developers who then took their skills developing a small CF app to manage the local soccer club registration system into the corporate world and build enterprise applications. Putting the screws to the small ISP hosting company to try and generate revenue on a per domain license will just force these same ISP's to bail on CF and start offering PHP and ASP which has no licensing costs. It is too bad that McAllaire doesn't' get this. - Steve Steve Pierce, HDL Co-Location starting $99 per month, no setup fee (734) 482-9682 | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://HDL.com -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 11:46 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License All I can say is, lets wait and see what the price change is. I can't see CFHosting saying that every customer has to fork up an extra $100 a month for licensing. An extra $5 or $10, maybe but not a major amount. And that's all based on the license. Lets say that the license is an extra $2000. On a shared box with 10 sites that can come to an additional start up fee of $200 or less. Now take into account that most smaller sites may be 50 or 100 to a box (I'm not sure of exact numbers). So a hosting company may say If you want to move up to a box with CF 5 on it we're charging a moving fee of $20-$50. Doing that as a one time thing will either take care of the licensing or close enough to it. As I've said in the past, I know the people at CFHosting (yes, I'm biased). I don't think they're going to screw the community or themselves on this. Same goes for the other hosts as well. I also don't think that A/MM is going to try and destroy the hosting business. They want to make money (who doesn't) but they also have an eye towards the future. Getting licensing money from hosting companies isn't as painful as if they asked us ALL for an extra few thousand. But as I said in the beginning of this post, lets wait and see. But the small development companies, particularly outside the US where bandwidth is a lot more expensive, cannot afford to host their own machines, and so we rely on virtual hosts like the CFHosting and the Cyberhost etc etc. If we will have to pay extra for our sites to be hosted on these servers, to cover the cost of licensing, then we will have to rethink our 'commitment' to ColdFusion. The majority of our client choose to use virtual servers for obvious reasons, and because they don't have the resources to host or maintain in-house. If these restrictions and costs get imposed on the Host providers, then they are going to be passed on to us, and then our clients, who are simply going to say that XYZ company are going to write in ASP/PHP/JSP and hosting is going to be a fraction of the cost. It already costs more to have a CF site hosted than an ASP site... How much more is this going to make it?? For the individuals on this list, it may not be a worry... For the small development companies, it could well be. And we are talking about Macromedia See the references in other messages to Generator. Priced out of the small-business league. Macromedia are in it for the money, and this is a concern that I've had since the merger. on 4/27/01 1:04 PM, Michael Dinowitz at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we should look at the original post again and calm down a bit. Notice how they say Hosting Service Providers? They're not talking about me with my 3 domains on a machine. They're not talking about you with your 2 or whatever domains on your machine. They're talking about CFHosting.com, who are defined as a business that provides hosting. They're talking about businesses, not people. While I could be wrong on this, I don't think I am. Relax. We'll see how it goes, but jumping to conclusions and thinking that we have to do the unimaginable (going to asp or perl) is not needed. ColdFusion will be here for us and I think that A/MM will see us for what we are, an asset to ColdFusion. We've just got to relax. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Please leave me alone now. The future is games! ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Paul Sizemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 9:57 PM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License It sounds like MM is going to throw the CF community a bone and then stick us in the pound. They kill Spectra, restructure licensing, float our pallets, and make us develop with a Studio / UltraDev hybrid. All this comes from the boardroom, not a developer wish list. Former Drumbeat developers still don't have a comparable solution in UltraDev. You have to remember, MM wants to make money, not necessarily provide a better development environment for us. This can be achieved by bringing CF down to the point a general HTML developer can create a viable application. But the cost of hosting those applications will make CF an unlikely choice. I would say the majority of CF development work is actually done on small sites running on shared servers. I have worked on dozens of such sites and I know of one problem that I always have to get over - the customer complaining about hosting costs, even when it's only £40 or so per month. I welcomed the Spectra announcement, it was obvious that something had to be done as it was way too expensive to be used on most sites, unfortunately it now looks like CF may become another product like Generator - very nice but out of most companies price range. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I think it just went to hosting partners. I didn't get one either. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. After all, CF5 is just a stepping stone to Neo isn't it? Surely if they hike the pricing model too high, no-one will pick up CF5 when there is a MAJOR new release round the corner. I will have to look at the costs, the implications of not adopting it etc.. before we make a decision on CF5. I think if A/MM aren't careful this could turn around and bite them on the backside!! Just my opinion Will -Original Message- From: Chris Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 27 April 2001 06:21 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Was this announcement sent to *all* A/MM Partners? I didn't see it. Can someone who received it shoot me a copy, please? Thanks. Chris Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Development Consulting http://www.astutia.com Allaire Sales Consulting Partner 210-490-3249/888-745-7603Fax 210-490-4692 Instant Messaging: AIM: astutiaweb; ICQ: 7381282; MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Chris Colón [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 2:58 PM I agree. The announcement came from [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is where I sent some feedback of my own... ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Adrian Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 11:03 PM Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License - Original Message - From: Paul Sizemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 9:57 PM You have to remember, MM wants to make money, not necessarily provide a better development environment for us. This can be achieved by bringing CF down to the point a general HTML developer can create a viable application. MM would do much better to make CF Server free, and sell super high performance rich development tools to target that environment - the universe of developers would be much larger. Adrian Cooper. Not a bad idea, they could even keep Enterprise as a paid for premium product and put Pro out for free. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I think we should look at the original post again and calm down a bit. Notice how they say Hosting Service Providers? They're not talking about me with my 3 domains on a machine. They're not talking about you with your 2 or whatever domains on your machine. They're talking about CFHosting.com, who are defined as a business that provides hosting. Do you know how many companies offer ColdFusion hosting in the UK? I know of about 10-15, none of which are large, well-known companies. Why? Demon told me it was the cost of the Application Server versus demand. There response was develop in ASP. If this pricing policy works its way through, hosting companies in the UK are going to be *less* likely to purchase CFAS, not more. And of the ones that have, all of them have a price per domain pricing structure. I was hoping to see reseller ColdFusion hosting options appear in the UK where you can host multiple domains for a fixed price per month (as a developer, that's ideal - we stand to generate monthly revenue the more we develop in ColdFusion), but I can't see that happening if this announcement comes into effect. So, end result, less ColdFusion hosting on offer, hosting prices don't come down, people reluctant to go down the ColdFusion route as it seems increasingly marginialised, proprietary and costly to host. ColdFusion isn't particularly mainstream in the UK as it is. Why do something that runs the risk of making it even less-so? This announcement stands to hit hosting companies in the short term and developers (who have to source hosting solutions for the applications they develop) in the longer term. If the price squeeze is enough, ColdFusion Server sales in the UK will suffer, the effects of which will cascade down to the point at which developers learn other languages and suggest they develop applications in those instead. Methinks Allaire/Macromedia might be trying to recoup their losses on Spectra... -- Aidan Whitehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Netshopperuk Telephone +44 (01744) 648650 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Correct..especially for Off Shore development such as what I do here in Trinidad. Our net connections can't support an INternational Website, so we HAVE to host on shared servers abroad like Hostpro.net or CFHOSTING etc. If the COST of hosting on a CF Enabled server goes up..why the heck would anyone outside the US choose Coldfusion??? That market is going to die off. True some may say well its not a sizeable market..but why COULDN'T it be? :) The Caribbean, and Latin America is only now, I think, starting to experience the .COM burst that the States experienced two or more years ago..Companies are starting to realise that the net is there and the net can help them. Trinidad is only just getting Wireless Cable Modems, we have Direct PC etc. and its the same thing that's starting to happen all up the caribbean island chain...these people gonna want development done. Right now everyone here knows .ASP. If it costs much more to put up a client website in the states on Coldfusion..they're not going to even sniff at CF. -Gel www.carigamer.com Island Gaming At Its Best!(tm) -Original Message- From: Nick Texidor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] But the small development companies, particularly outside the US where bandwidth is a lot more expensive, cannot afford to host their own machines, and so we rely on virtual hosts like the CFHosting and the Cyberhost etc etc. If we will have to pay extra for our sites to be hosted on these servers, to cover the cost of licensing, then we will have to rethink our 'commitment' to ColdFusion. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
YES!! He ssss the light! -Gel www.carigamer.com ISLAND GAMING AT ITS BEST!(tm) hee hee -Original Message- From: Peter Tilbrook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Please leave me alone now. The future is games! ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Aidan Whitehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:27 AM Yes - having been in the Internet industry in Britain ever since there was one - I founded one of the first fully national ISP's - I can certainly endorse the comments of Aidan. What few hosting companies that have been willing hitherto to support Cold Fusion will surely do so no longer if the new pricing schema is at it would appear to be. Service providers of all types are used to getting things for free - Linux, Apache, Sendmail etc.., and premium charges for CF are hardly going to encourage service providers in general to consider actually paying for a server side application. I have to say - this is extremely myopic of Macromedia (subject to seeing the full details) - it will push developers who may have been waivering to ASP/PHP etc., and other free middleware. I still firmly believe that the best strategy would be to make CF Server free, and focus on marketing development tools to a much wider audience as a result. I think the Netscape browser is a good parallel - they had to make it free and open source to encourage people to use the portal. No one will pay for browsers anymore than they will for expensive middleware, when the alternatives are free and widely supported. Adrian Cooper. Do you know how many companies offer ColdFusion hosting in the UK? I know of about 10-15, none of which are large, well-known companies. Why? Demon told me it was the cost of the Application Server versus demand. There response was develop in ASP. If this pricing policy works its way through, hosting companies in the UK are going to be *less* likely to purchase CFAS, not more. And of the ones that have, all of them have a price per domain pricing structure. I was hoping to see reseller ColdFusion hosting options appear in the UK where you can host multiple domains for a fixed price per month (as a developer, that's ideal - we stand to generate monthly revenue the more we develop in ColdFusion), but I can't see that happening if this announcement comes into effect. So, end result, less ColdFusion hosting on offer, hosting prices don't come down, people reluctant to go down the ColdFusion route as it seems increasingly marginialised, proprietary and costly to host. ColdFusion isn't particularly mainstream in the UK as it is. Why do something that runs the risk of making it even less-so? This announcement stands to hit hosting companies in the short term and developers (who have to source hosting solutions for the applications they develop) in the longer term. If the price squeeze is enough, ColdFusion Server sales in the UK will suffer, the effects of which will cascade down to the point at which developers learn other languages and suggest they develop applications in those instead. Methinks Allaire/Macromedia might be trying to recoup their losses on Spectra... -- Aidan Whitehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Netshopperuk Telephone +44 (01744) 648650 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Well, personally I get a feeling that this is the first nail in the coffin of CF Application Server - see the logic - increase the price to push it up to be in the same league as Broadvision and Vignette - drop spectra as the webtop never worked - over price the back end middle ware and wait and see if large companies buy it - in the meantime develop jrun to act as CF Application Server - if CF 5 at new price fails - drop it like spectra and release jrun CF at slightly increased prices to old CF Enterprise - get us all to use that instead - etc, etc, - I'm off to buy a PHP book. J -Original Message- From: Adrian Cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 27 April 2001 12:24 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License - Original Message - From: Aidan Whitehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:27 AM Yes - having been in the Internet industry in Britain ever since there was one - I founded one of the first fully national ISP's - I can certainly endorse the comments of Aidan. What few hosting companies that have been willing hitherto to support Cold Fusion will surely do so no longer if the new pricing schema is at it would appear to be. Service providers of all types are used to getting things for free - Linux, Apache, Sendmail etc.., and premium charges for CF are hardly going to encourage service providers in general to consider actually paying for a server side application. I have to say - this is extremely myopic of Macromedia (subject to seeing the full details) - it will push developers who may have been waivering to ASP/PHP etc., and other free middleware. I still firmly believe that the best strategy would be to make CF Server free, and focus on marketing development tools to a much wider audience as a result. I think the Netscape browser is a good parallel - they had to make it free and open source to encourage people to use the portal. No one will pay for browsers anymore than they will for expensive middleware, when the alternatives are free and widely supported. Adrian Cooper. Do you know how many companies offer ColdFusion hosting in the UK? I know of about 10-15, none of which are large, well-known companies. Why? Demon told me it was the cost of the Application Server versus demand. There response was develop in ASP. If this pricing policy works its way through, hosting companies in the UK are going to be *less* likely to purchase CFAS, not more. And of the ones that have, all of them have a price per domain pricing structure. I was hoping to see reseller ColdFusion hosting options appear in the UK where you can host multiple domains for a fixed price per month (as a developer, that's ideal - we stand to generate monthly revenue the more we develop in ColdFusion), but I can't see that happening if this announcement comes into effect. So, end result, less ColdFusion hosting on offer, hosting prices don't come down, people reluctant to go down the ColdFusion route as it seems increasingly marginialised, proprietary and costly to host. ColdFusion isn't particularly mainstream in the UK as it is. Why do something that runs the risk of making it even less-so? This announcement stands to hit hosting companies in the short term and developers (who have to source hosting solutions for the applications they develop) in the longer term. If the price squeeze is enough, ColdFusion Server sales in the UK will suffer, the effects of which will cascade down to the point at which developers learn other languages and suggest they develop applications in those instead. Methinks Allaire/Macromedia might be trying to recoup their losses on Spectra... -- Aidan Whitehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Netshopperuk Telephone +44 (01744) 648650 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
MacroMedia/Allaire should know that a Server Side Application Server like Cold Fusion can't be compared to servers such as mail servers,webserver, etc.and push the big licensing fees. One big difference is those servers can be purschased installed out of the box and do its thing with the existing software. Cold Fusion requires applications(thus developers). What good is a server if the applications aren't there to run on it? Developers developing Cold Fusion apps is what makes the demand for a ColdFusion Server. That does Macromedia little good if we are developing in PHP,ASP etc. They are either missing the whole boat here or they have another agenda on down the road for their plans of ColdFusion. Unfortunately, its probably the latter. I agree with the reply yesterday( i don't remember who posted it), but they should make ColdFusion Server free and then charge us the high end prices for the RAD environments and the rich tools that they can provide to develop applications. - Original Message - From: James Maltby [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 7:00 AM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Well, personally I get a feeling that this is the first nail in the coffin of CF Application Server - see the logic - increase the price to push it up to be in the same league as Broadvision and Vignette - drop spectra as the webtop never worked - over price the back end middle ware and wait and see if large companies buy it - in the meantime develop jrun to act as CF Application Server - if CF 5 at new price fails - drop it like spectra and release jrun CF at slightly increased prices to old CF Enterprise - get us all to use that instead - etc, etc, - I'm off to buy a PHP book. J -Original Message- From: Adrian Cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 27 April 2001 12:24 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License - Original Message - From: Aidan Whitehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:27 AM Yes - having been in the Internet industry in Britain ever since there was one - I founded one of the first fully national ISP's - I can certainly endorse the comments of Aidan. What few hosting companies that have been willing hitherto to support Cold Fusion will surely do so no longer if the new pricing schema is at it would appear to be. Service providers of all types are used to getting things for free - Linux, Apache, Sendmail etc.., and premium charges for CF are hardly going to encourage service providers in general to consider actually paying for a server side application. I have to say - this is extremely myopic of Macromedia (subject to seeing the full details) - it will push developers who may have been waivering to ASP/PHP etc., and other free middleware. I still firmly believe that the best strategy would be to make CF Server free, and focus on marketing development tools to a much wider audience as a result. I think the Netscape browser is a good parallel - they had to make it free and open source to encourage people to use the portal. No one will pay for browsers anymore than they will for expensive middleware, when the alternatives are free and widely supported. Adrian Cooper. Do you know how many companies offer ColdFusion hosting in the UK? I know of about 10-15, none of which are large, well-known companies. Why? Demon told me it was the cost of the Application Server versus demand. There response was develop in ASP. If this pricing policy works its way through, hosting companies in the UK are going to be *less* likely to purchase CFAS, not more. And of the ones that have, all of them have a price per domain pricing structure. I was hoping to see reseller ColdFusion hosting options appear in the UK where you can host multiple domains for a fixed price per month (as a developer, that's ideal - we stand to generate monthly revenue the more we develop in ColdFusion), but I can't see that happening if this announcement comes into effect. So, end result, less ColdFusion hosting on offer, hosting prices don't come down, people reluctant to go down the ColdFusion route as it seems increasingly marginialised, proprietary and costly to host. ColdFusion isn't particularly mainstream in the UK as it is. Why do something that runs the risk of making it even less-so? This announcement stands to hit hosting companies in the short term and developers (who have to source hosting solutions for the applications they develop) in the longer term. If the price squeeze is enough, ColdFusion Server sales in the UK will suffer, the effects of which will cascade down to the point at which developers learn other languages and suggest they develop applications in those instead. Methinks Allaire/Macromedia might be trying to recoup their losses on Spectra... -- Aidan Whitehall
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
And we'll all continue to develop in CFS 4.5... -Original Message- From: Tracy Bost [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 27 April 2001 13:25 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License MacroMedia/Allaire should know that a Server Side Application Server like Cold Fusion can't be compared to servers such as mail servers,webserver, etc.and push the big licensing fees. One big difference is those servers can be purschased installed out of the box and do its thing with the existing software. Cold Fusion requires applications(thus developers). What good is a server if the applications aren't there to run on it? Developers developing Cold Fusion apps is what makes the demand for a ColdFusion Server. That does Macromedia little good if we are developing in PHP,ASP etc. They are either missing the whole boat here or they have another agenda on down the road for their plans of ColdFusion. Unfortunately, its probably the latter. I agree with the reply yesterday( i don't remember who posted it), but they should make ColdFusion Server free and then charge us the high end prices for the RAD environments and the rich tools that they can provide to develop applications. - Original Message - From: James Maltby [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 7:00 AM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Well, personally I get a feeling that this is the first nail in the coffin of CF Application Server - see the logic - increase the price to push it up to be in the same league as Broadvision and Vignette - drop spectra as the webtop never worked - over price the back end middle ware and wait and see if large companies buy it - in the meantime develop jrun to act as CF Application Server - if CF 5 at new price fails - drop it like spectra and release jrun CF at slightly increased prices to old CF Enterprise - get us all to use that instead - etc, etc, - I'm off to buy a PHP book. J -Original Message- From: Adrian Cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 27 April 2001 12:24 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License - Original Message - From: Aidan Whitehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:27 AM Yes - having been in the Internet industry in Britain ever since there was one - I founded one of the first fully national ISP's - I can certainly endorse the comments of Aidan. What few hosting companies that have been willing hitherto to support Cold Fusion will surely do so no longer if the new pricing schema is at it would appear to be. Service providers of all types are used to getting things for free - Linux, Apache, Sendmail etc.., and premium charges for CF are hardly going to encourage service providers in general to consider actually paying for a server side application. I have to say - this is extremely myopic of Macromedia (subject to seeing the full details) - it will push developers who may have been waivering to ASP/PHP etc., and other free middleware. I still firmly believe that the best strategy would be to make CF Server free, and focus on marketing development tools to a much wider audience as a result. I think the Netscape browser is a good parallel - they had to make it free and open source to encourage people to use the portal. No one will pay for browsers anymore than they will for expensive middleware, when the alternatives are free and widely supported. Adrian Cooper. Do you know how many companies offer ColdFusion hosting in the UK? I know of about 10-15, none of which are large, well-known companies. Why? Demon told me it was the cost of the Application Server versus demand. There response was develop in ASP. If this pricing policy works its way through, hosting companies in the UK are going to be *less* likely to purchase CFAS, not more. And of the ones that have, all of them have a price per domain pricing structure. I was hoping to see reseller ColdFusion hosting options appear in the UK where you can host multiple domains for a fixed price per month (as a developer, that's ideal - we stand to generate monthly revenue the more we develop in ColdFusion), but I can't see that happening if this announcement comes into effect. So, end result, less ColdFusion hosting on offer, hosting prices don't come down, people reluctant to go down the ColdFusion route as it seems increasingly marginialised, proprietary and costly to host. ColdFusion isn't particularly mainstream in the UK as it is. Why do something that runs the risk of making it even less-so? This announcement stands to hit hosting companies in the short term and developers (who have to source hosting solutions for the applications they develop) in the longer term. If the price squeeze is enough, ColdFusion Server sales in the UK will suffer, the effects of which will cascade down to the point at which
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I think I'm a partner, but I didn't get it. I believe it was sent to the hosting partners only. Was this announcement sent to *all* A/MM Partners? I didn't see it. Can someone who received it shoot me a copy, please? Thanks. Chris Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Development Consulting http://www.astutia.com Allaire Sales Consulting Partner 210-490-3249/888-745-7603Fax 210-490-4692 Instant Messaging: AIM: astutiaweb; ICQ: 7381282; MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Chris Colón [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 2:58 PM I agree. The announcement came from [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is where I sent some feedback of my own... ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
If the UK or other non-US ISPs talked to A/MM, maybe individual deals could be made. If I was at A/MM I'd talk to ISPs on a per company basis and for some wave the fee for a time to 'help get them on their feet'. ISP building is great in the long run but may cost a little in licensing in the short. But that's just me. Do you know how many companies offer ColdFusion hosting in the UK? I know of about 10-15, none of which are large, well-known companies. Why? Demon told me it was the cost of the Application Server versus demand. There response was develop in ASP. If this pricing policy works its way through, hosting companies in the UK are going to be *less* likely to purchase CFAS, not more. And of the ones that have, all of them have a price per domain pricing structure. I was hoping to see reseller ColdFusion hosting options appear in the UK where you can host multiple domains for a fixed price per month (as a developer, that's ideal - we stand to generate monthly revenue the more we develop in ColdFusion), but I can't see that happening if this announcement comes into effect. So, end result, less ColdFusion hosting on offer, hosting prices don't come down, people reluctant to go down the ColdFusion route as it seems increasingly marginialised, proprietary and costly to host. ColdFusion isn't particularly mainstream in the UK as it is. Why do something that runs the risk of making it even less-so? This announcement stands to hit hosting companies in the short term and developers (who have to source hosting solutions for the applications they develop) in the longer term. If the price squeeze is enough, ColdFusion Server sales in the UK will suffer, the effects of which will cascade down to the point at which developers learn other languages and suggest they develop applications in those instead. Methinks Allaire/Macromedia might be trying to recoup their losses on Spectra... -- Aidan Whitehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Netshopperuk Telephone +44 (01744) 648650 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
One of the main strengths of CF has always been its developer community. MANY, MANY improvements came from them. I wonder how MM quantifies Developer Community and Developer Community Good Will in its cost/benefit analysis whose goal is to maximize profits. best, paul At 05:15 PM 4/26/01 -0700, you wrote: i agree with your latter sentiments. we've been developing more and more non-CF (jsp, php, asp) applications for a variety of reasons. and now i'm very, very glad. i also agree this doesn't appear to be headed in a positive direction, but i suppose we need to wait and see what MM comes up with. like you, i hope they consider this very carefully. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
The first thing that sprang to mind when I read this was... Macromedia don't even have a partner program of any sort. At least not available here in Australia. So that could indicate that there isn't much of a 'Developer Community' within Macromedia! One of the main strengths of CF has always been its developer community. MANY, MANY improvements came from them. I wonder how MM quantifies Developer Community and Developer Community Good Will in its cost/benefit analysis whose goal is to maximize profits. best, paul At 05:15 PM 4/26/01 -0700, you wrote: i agree with your latter sentiments. we've been developing more and more non-CF (jsp, php, asp) applications for a variety of reasons. and now i'm very, very glad. i also agree this doesn't appear to be headed in a positive direction, but i suppose we need to wait and see what MM comes up with. like you, i hope they consider this very carefully. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
At 09:48 AM 4/27/01, you wrote: Michael, If the UK or other non-US ISPs talked to A/MM, maybe individual deals could be made. If I was at A/MM I'd talk to ISPs on a per company basis and for some wave the fee for a time to 'help get them on their feet'. ISP building is great in the long run but may cost a little in licensing in the short. But that's just me. While this may serve to put some balm on the current wound, it indicates a mindset that, if it comes to pass, will amount to a significant dropoff in the vitality of this community. Waiving the fee for a time is not the issue, it's dealing with the competitive pressures. When crossing paths with micro$oft, one misstep is all it takes... Netscape made that misstep, and never recovered. I'm afraid that if a/MM takes licensing in this direction, they will not recover from that. I know that we will switch to another platform (probably asp) if, in fact this is where the licensing is headed. We've looked forward to the features in CF5 for awhile now, but it is just not going to be a viable alternative if a/MM goes down this road. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
MM could be positioning CF upmarket, abandoning the low-end web apps to PHP, open source platforms, and ASP, and targetting primarily, exclusively the corps, not the hosting services, knowing MM can´t run a business competing with free open source software, and the equally free MS security blanket. I remember Jeremy, I think, saying if you can´t get your tools adopted by the corps, strategically, you´re dead. He didn´t say anything about CF hosting shops. Len http://MenAndMice.com/DNS-training : Austin,TX: SFO,CA; 7,8 May http://BIND8NT.MEIway.com : ISC BIND 8.2.3 NT3 for NT4 W2K http://IMGate.MEIway.com : Build free, hi-perf, anti-abuse mail gateways ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I really can't see A/MM abandoning us. Think about it, every author (with the exception of a few that they have in house) are in the low end. Every person who runs a community site is in the low end. With very few exceptions, every person who made CF what it is today is in the low end. They HAVE to know that abandoning us (and yes, I'm definitely in the low end as well) will only result in the death of CF. There's no chance in hell they're going to do that. Even if they're positioning CF for the upmarket they'll have to take care of us. Either that or just drop CF. MM could be positioning CF upmarket, abandoning the low-end web apps to PHP, open source platforms, and ASP, and targetting primarily, exclusively the corps, not the hosting services, knowing MM can´t run a business competing with free open source software, and the equally free MS security blanket. I remember Jeremy, I think, saying if you can´t get your tools adopted by the corps, strategically, you´re dead. He didn´t say anything about CF hosting shops. Len http://MenAndMice.com/DNS-training : Austin,TX: SFO,CA; 7,8 May http://BIND8NT.MEIway.com : ISC BIND 8.2.3 NT3 for NT4 W2K http://IMGate.MEIway.com : Build free, hi-perf, anti-abuse mail gateways ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
MM could be positioning CF upmarket, abandoning the low-end web apps to PHP, open source platforms, and ASP, and targetting primarily, exclusively the corps, not the hosting services, knowing MM can´t run a business competing with free open source software, and the equally free MS security blanket. And where would that leave smaller developers? Out in the cold or suddenly finding themselves having to learn PHP? ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I don't think I can agree with that statement. Everything we've heard from A/MM so far points the opposite. MM has made it's mark with lower end applications. Even UltraDev is only a $500+ product. Supposedly, they dropped Spectra because it was too high of a dollar tag for their focus. I think we just need to see the details before we all jump to conclusions. Everything we've seen says that MM has a true commitment to CF. Dave - Original Message - From: Len Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 7:27 AM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License MM could be positioning CF upmarket, abandoning the low-end web apps to PHP, open source platforms, and ASP, and targetting primarily, exclusively the corps, not the hosting services, knowing MM can´t run a business competing with free open source software, and the equally free MS security blanket. I remember Jeremy, I think, saying if you can´t get your tools adopted by the corps, strategically, you´re dead. He didn´t say anything about CF hosting shops. Len ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
At 07:27 AM 4/27/01, you wrote: Len, I certainly can't fault them on principle if this is their approach.. Whether or not this is a valid revenue model remains to be seen. From my perspective (which is different than most g), each developer needs to decide whether this fits THEIR business model.. I'm afraid without a critical mass of lower end stuff, there will be no energy base upon which to have and develop a brand name and a viable community. and it certainly doesn't fit OUR business model. I'm about as anti-m$ as you can get, but i'm ready to jump ship to asp if this comes to pass. I used to use webboard many years ago, but switched to IIS when our business model and approach dictated it. MM could be positioning CF upmarket, abandoning the low-end web apps to PHP, open source platforms, and ASP, and targetting primarily, exclusively the corps, not the hosting services, knowing MM can´t run a business competing with free open source software, and the equally free MS security blanket. I remember Jeremy, I think, saying if you can´t get your tools adopted by the corps, strategically, you´re dead. He didn´t say anything about CF hosting shops. Len http://MenAndMice.com/DNS-training : Austin,TX: SFO,CA; 7,8 May http://BIND8NT.MEIway.com : ISC BIND 8.2.3 NT3 for NT4 W2K http://IMGate.MEIway.com : Build free, hi-perf, anti-abuse mail gateways ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. Stay tuned. --- Ben Forta -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License MM could be positioning CF upmarket, abandoning the low-end web apps to PHP, open source platforms, and ASP, and targetting primarily, exclusively the corps, not the hosting services, knowing MM can?t run a business competing with free open source software, and the equally free MS security blanket. And where would that leave smaller developers? Out in the cold or suddenly finding themselves having to learn PHP? ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Let me preface this by saying that it isn't meant as a comment about Macromedia but is a general comment They HAVE to know that abandoning us (and yes, I'm definitely in the low end as well) will only result in the death of CF. Publicly held software companies are beholden to their shareholders and the bottom line. If the management of the company thinks that they can make more money in a process that eliminates 90% of their small scale developers they will do it. No question. If the idea is sound in the long term is another matter entirely. And I think you can look at the history of software development firms to see that foresight and long-term planning are not necessarily skills that the management of software companies have in excess. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
At 01:35 PM 4/27/01, you wrote: Yet ??? gg Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. that's good news... ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
And where would that leave smaller developers? If the smaller developers aren´t worth their cost of sales, then, yes ... Out in the cold and you don´t make significant money selling CF software, but from your CF apps and support contract revenue, none of which goes back to MM. Of course, the other shoe will drop, which will be software renting, time-limited product activation codes, since that´s where MS is officially going, sooner rather than later. Let´s not get emotional about it, it´s the brutal face of business. Remember, as long as one can do it in the name of (moral) religion or (amoral) business, you can do anything. :)) Len http://MenAndMice.com/DNS-training : Austin,TX: SFO,CA; 7,8 May http://BIND8NT.MEIway.com : ISC BIND 8.2.3 NT3 for NT4 W2K http://IMGate.MEIway.com : Build free, hi-perf, anti-abuse mail gateways ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Do let us know when the FAQ is ready so we can begin panicking. ;-) In the mean time, that's for helping calm our fears. -- Hans Omli -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 10:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. Stay tuned. --- Ben Forta -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License MM could be positioning CF upmarket, abandoning the low-end web apps to PHP, open source platforms, and ASP, and targetting primarily, exclusively the corps, not the hosting services, knowing MM can?t run a business competing with free open source software, and the equally free MS security blanket. And where would that leave smaller developers? Out in the cold or suddenly finding themselves having to learn PHP? ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Angél Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 12:16 PM Correct..especially for Off Shore development such as what I do here in Trinidad. Our net connections can't support an INternational Website, so we HAVE to host on shared servers abroad like Hostpro.net or CFHOSTING etc. Same here in the Isle of Man - we it's all about the offshore industry and offshore hosting, and everyone except us is developing in ASP. I suspect that there must be alot of marginal situations like here, where it won't take much to go to ASP which is universally supported at no incremental cost. Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
- Original Message - From: Ben Forta [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 6:35 PM Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. Stay tuned. Well I hope they publish it quickly. I hear that Amazon are suddenly doing a roaring trade in teach yourself ASP and PHP books :-) Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I agree, they also recently changed the price for Generator making it quite affordable and now available for multiple domains as well... I would wait to see every details of the new price policy before making any comment. Macromedia's move on Generator actually goes on the opposite direction, since they failed to target the high end market, they are going back to their traditional low end customers PS I am learning PHP anyway, who know :-) Massimo Foti [EMAIL PROTECTED] My own Corner of the web http://www.massimocorner.com Dreamweaver, Ultradev and Fireworks goodies It should be this hole in the ozone layer But I am not the coder I use to be... Dave Hannum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 00de01c0cf3c$650074d0$bd08eb84@jasper">news:00de01c0cf3c$650074d0$bd08eb84@jasper... I don't think I can agree with that statement. Everything we've heard from A/MM so far points the opposite. MM has made it's mark with lower end applications. Even UltraDev is only a $500+ product. Supposedly, they dropped Spectra because it was too high of a dollar tag for their focus. I think we just need to see the details before we all jump to conclusions. Everything we've seen says that MM has a true commitment to CF. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
As I hit SEND I wondered how long it would be until someone responded with that. g -Original Message- From: Hans Omli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 2:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Do let us know when the FAQ is ready so we can begin panicking. ;-) In the mean time, that's for helping calm our fears. -- Hans Omli -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 10:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. Stay tuned. --- Ben Forta -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License MM could be positioning CF upmarket, abandoning the low-end web apps to PHP, open source platforms, and ASP, and targetting primarily, exclusively the corps, not the hosting services, knowing MM can?t run a business competing with free open source software, and the equally free MS security blanket. And where would that leave smaller developers? Out in the cold or suddenly finding themselves having to learn PHP? ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
unless you go out of business or lose your religion. -Original Message- From: Len Conrad [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 8:11 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License And where would that leave smaller developers? If the smaller developers aren´t worth their cost of sales, then, yes ... Out in the cold . and you don´t make significant money selling CF software, but from your CF apps and support contract revenue, none of which goes back to MM. Of course, the other shoe will drop, which will be software renting, time-limited product activation codes, since that´s where MS is officially going, sooner rather than later. Let´s not get emotional about it, it´s the brutal face of business. Remember, as long as one can do it in the name of (moral) religion or (amoral) business, you can do anything. :)) Len http://MenAndMice.com/DNS-training : Austin,TX: SFO,CA; 7,8 May http://BIND8NT.MEIway.com : ISC BIND 8.2.3 NT3 for NT4 W2K http://IMGate.MEIway.com : Build free, hi-perf, anti-abuse mail gateways ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Len Conrad wrote: And where would that leave smaller developers? If the smaller developers aren´t worth their cost of sales, then, yes As has been mentioned before, I don't think that most companies factor in the value of small developers into their cost benefit analysis Out in the cold and you don´t make significant money selling CF software, but from your CF apps and support contract revenue, none of which goes back to MM. Or does it? No-one has, to my knowledge, spent any time examining the issue of how much a company makes (long term) from the support they give to small developers. Macromedia might not make a lot from direct sales but I think that the long-term profitability of the company has to be built on small developers. Let´s not get emotional about it, it´s the brutal face of business. Well that¹s certainly a logical approach but you really can't expect people to be anything other than emotional when there is a perceived direct threat to their ability to make a living. Or to the investment they have made in CF. I've just finished spending 3 months writing a CMS framework. I certainly don't want to see that effort go down the drain. -- Consistency is the refuge of the unimaginative Oscar Wilde email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.pixelgeek.com/ ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
is there any book called PHP by April30th?? ;) just wondering...does PHP run on windows?? coz if it comes to that i dont want to go for ASP. i was planning to do something like CFhosting, sortabut dang!!! my other friend was right... -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Let me preface this by saying that it isn't meant as a comment about Macromedia but is a general comment They HAVE to know that abandoning us (and yes, I'm definitely in the low end as well) will only result in the death of CF. Publicly held software companies are beholden to their shareholders and the bottom line. If the management of the company thinks that they can make more money in a process that eliminates 90% of their small scale developers they will do it. No question. If the idea is sound in the long term is another matter entirely. And I think you can look at the history of software development firms to see that foresight and long-term planning are not necessarily skills that the management of software companies have in excess. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Unfortunately, I will be moving most of my apps to ASP PHP. These are free and easy to setup. I love CF, except for the cost. -- Original Message -- From: Adrian Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:30:44 +0100 - Original Message - From: Angél Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 12:16 PM Correct..especially for Off Shore development such as what I do here in Trinidad. Our net connections can't support an INternational Website, so we HAVE to host on shared servers abroad like Hostpro.net or CFHOSTING etc. Same here in the Isle of Man - we it's all about the offshore industry and offshore hosting, and everyone except us is developing in ASP. I suspect that there must be alot of marginal situations like here, where it won't take much to go to ASP which is universally supported at no incremental cost. Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. Stay tuned. Ahh, but will the FAQ arrive before we all spend the weekend planning our alternatives? :) ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Anyone interested in writing a new SAMS book: Teach your coldfusion developers PHP in 5 hours? Sorry, I couldn't resist the urge. John -Original Message- From: Adrian Cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject:Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License - Original Message - From: Angél Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 12:16 PM Correct..especially for Off Shore development such as what I do here in Trinidad. Our net connections can't support an INternational Website, so we HAVE to host on shared servers abroad like Hostpro.net or CFHOSTING etc. Same here in the Isle of Man - we it's all about the offshore industry and offshore hosting, and everyone except us is developing in ASP. I suspect that there must be alot of marginal situations like here, where it won't take much to go to ASP which is universally supported at no incremental cost. Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I'm sorry I don't have full word on this story... I'm mostly a clientside guy trying to learn more about the field. From what I read it sounds like there will be an announcement on Monday, and certain partners who host others got a bit of advance word this week. I'd echo Michael and Ben, about waiting for full details to arrive next week. Sorry I can't contribute anything more meaningful than that right now, but I do know there's a general desire to communicate privately with individuals affected before making public announcements... sounds like this may be what's happening here too. At 1:57 PM 4/26/1, Paul Sizemore wrote: You have to remember, MM wants to make money, not necessarily provide a better development environment for us. One sustainable way of achieving the former is by first achieving the latter ;-) jd John Dowdell, Macromedia Tech Support, San Francisco CA US Search technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ Offlist email risks capture by the spam filters. I may not see your email if it's not on the list. Private one-on-one email options are available via Priority Access: http://www.macromedia.com/support/ ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Macromedia might not make a lot from direct sales but I think that the long-term profitability of the company has to be built on small developers. I agree, if you look at it, who champions CF more loudly than the smaller developers? And smaller firms. The large firms have developers in several areas so cutting back CF probably wouldn't have a dramatic impact. From what I can tell, hopefully this doesn't offend anyone, but we're all representing smaller organizations. Except maybe the guys from figleaf, and a few others, that have name recognition for me. The rest of us, as discussed a few days ago on community, are freelancers or members of very small firms. I think MM would be greatly impacted if a significant enough percentage of us had to stop representing CF. J. John Wilker Web Applications Consultant Allaire Certified ColdFusion Developer www.red-omega.com http://www.red-omega.com Lessons learned from movies: 5. It does not matter if you are heavily outnumbered in a fight involving martial arts, your enemies will wait patiently to attack you one by one by dancing around in a threatening manner until you have knocked out their predecessors. -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 12:03 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Len Conrad wrote: And where would that leave smaller developers? If the smaller developers aren´t worth their cost of sales, then, yes . As has been mentioned before, I don't think that most companies factor in the value of small developers into their cost benefit analysis Out in the cold and you don´t make significant money selling CF software, but from your CF apps and support contract revenue, none of which goes back to MM. Or does it? No-one has, to my knowledge, spent any time examining the issue of how much a company makes (long term) from the support they give to small developers. Macromedia might not make a lot from direct sales but I think that the long-term profitability of the company has to be built on small developers. Let´s not get emotional about it, it´s the brutal face of business. Well that¹s certainly a logical approach but you really can't expect people to be anything other than emotional when there is a perceived direct threat to their ability to make a living. Or to the investment they have made in CF. I've just finished spending 3 months writing a CMS framework. I certainly don't want to see that effort go down the drain. -- Consistency is the refuge of the unimaginative Oscar Wilde email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.pixelgeek.com/ ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
While I could be wrong on this, I don't think I am. Relax. We'll see how it goes, but jumping to conclusions and thinking that we have to do the unimaginable (going to asp or perl) is not needed. ColdFusion will be here for us and I think that A/MM will see us for what we are, an asset to ColdFusion. We've just got to relax. I believe this to be incorrect. I think that by expressing our opinions to this list where we *know* that A/MM is watching, we may be able to influence the decision before it becomes set in stone. By waiting until we hear there final decision we leave ourselves an uphill battle to change what we feel should be changed. I mean what if we did what our governments are doing and waited until the sky turned black before we accepted the idea that CO2 and other greenhouse gases where possibly dangerous. I say that if we think there is any possibility that this is what is going to happen then we should definitely speak up, so that our voices (text) may be heard (read)!!! That said... I believe that the statement above express my idea that a lot of little people can have a large influence over something bigger than themselves, and I think that is exactly what A/MM is going to find out when (assuming rumored pricing) no one upgrades to CF5. I've been watching the list and would love to get my hands on the new features of CF5, but if it means that I have to shell out what little profits I can squeeze out, then I feel that I will be sticking with 4.5 until I find the time to learn ASP. Don Kiggins ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
From: Akbar Pasha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 2:15 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License is there any book called PHP by April30th?? ;) Ha! just wondering...does PHP run on windows?? coz if it comes to that i dont want to go for ASP. ASP isn't that bad (no gasping please), although I like PHP and/or CF much better. But yes PHP does run on windows. http://www.google.com/search?q=PHP+windows+download Not only that, it's possible to have CF, ASP, and PHP (along with a few others) all running at once on the same server. - Bruce P.S. - I also think that all this speculation is *very* premature. I wouldn't be too quick to dump CF. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
PHP for Win32, was RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Yes, there is a Win32 version of PHP 4.x. For best results I would use PHP in conjunction with Apache and MySQL. Both of those applications are also available for Win32 but all three (PHP, Apache, MySQL) are tuned to Linux and were developed by/for the OSS community. PHP: http://www.php.net/ Zend: http://www.zend.com/ Apache: http://httpd.apache.org/ MySQL: http://www.mysql.com/ Steve -Original Message- From: Akbar Pasha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 3:15 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License is there any book called PHP by April30th?? ;) just wondering...does PHP run on windows?? coz if it comes to that i dont want to go for ASP. i was planning to do something like CFhosting, sortabut dang!!! my other friend was right... ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
PHP will run on Windows. Go to www.php.net to get it. -- Original Message -- From: Akbar Pasha [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:14:33 -0400 is there any book called PHP by April30th?? ;) just wondering...does PHP run on windows?? coz if it comes to that i dont want to go for ASP. i was planning to do something like CFhosting, sortabut dang!!! my other friend was right... -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Let me preface this by saying that it isn't meant as a comment about Macromedia but is a general comment They HAVE to know that abandoning us (and yes, I'm definitely in the low end as well) will only result in the death of CF. Publicly held software companies are beholden to their shareholders and the bottom line. If the management of the company thinks that they can make more money in a process that eliminates 90% of their small scale developers they will do it. No question. If the idea is sound in the long term is another matter entirely. And I think you can look at the history of software development firms to see that foresight and long-term planning are not necessarily skills that the management of software companies have in excess. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
'is there any book called PHP by April30th??' - lol A couple folks have asked for it, so here's the text of the announcement that hosting partners received yesterday (apologies if my Netscape Communicator email program parses the line feeds weirdly): - Dear Partner, On April 30, 2001, Macromedia will be announcing the launch of ColdFusion Server 5 and the ColdFusion Server 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition, which consists of a new End-User License for commercial hosting service providers. We are excited to provide you with advanced notice of our announcement of the launch of a new Hosting Edition for ColdFusion 5.0 that offers Web Hosting partners improved functionality as well as new licensing terms. Improved Functionality ColdFusion Server 5 has new functionality that will help hosters improve the management and enhance the performance of hosted ColdFusion servers. It also provides existing ColdFusion users with numerous new features that should drive more business for ColdFusion hosters. The following is brief description of some of those features: * SNMP MIB (Management Information Base)- Provides performance and availability data so that ColdFusion servers can be monitored from within an enterprise systems management console. * Custom Logs - Provides administrators with the ability to customize log reports for individual applications on a shared hosted ColdFusion server. * Enhanced Hardware Load Balancer Integration - Provides the capability to run a server agent that is capable of passing CF application server load and application health information to any of the popular hardware load balancing devices, providing a higher level of site availability and better overall load balancing. * Application Monitoring- Enables server administrators to configure custom monitors that respond to page or application-specific thresholds. When a threshold is passed, the server can send an automatic notification, trigger an automated response, or send a notification to an enterprise management console via SNMP * Application Deployment Services- Provides site archiving features that enable easy back-up and deployment of applications and/or ColdFusion Server configuration data. This simplifies server(s) management by enabling the easy movement of applications between servers, such as from testing to production or from one production server to another in a data center. * Merant ODBC Drivers- ColdFusion 5.0 now includes the Merant ODBC 3.7 drivers on all platforms, including new wire protocol drivers which provide a consistently high-performance interface to all popular data sources. New Licensing Terms The new ColdFusion Server 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition is for web hosting service providers that provide shared hosting services (host multiple ColdFusion applications and/or sites on a single ColdFusion server) for the ColdFusion platform. Starting with the release of ColdFusion 5, the End-User License right to host multiple ColdFusion applications and/or sites on a single ColdFusion server will only be included in the ColdFusion 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition license. The ColdFusion 5 Enterprise and Pro End-User License will no longer permit multiple ColdFusion applications and/or sites to be hosted on a single ColdFusion server. Web hosters that are purchasing ColdFusion 5 servers to host multiple ColdFusion applications and/or sites on a single ColdFusion 5 server will need to purchase the ColdFusion 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition. Web hosters that provide dedicated ColdFusion hosting services (host one ColdFusion application and/or site on a single ColdFusion server), will be able to continue to host ColdFusion customers on either a ColdFusion Enterprise or Pro server license. The ColdFusion 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition: * Will be priced on a per CPU basis * Can be purchased directly from Macromedia on a per CPU basis, or through Macromedia's Commercial Service Providers (CSP) License Program that provides payment terms that map to a Hosting Service Providers business model. * Will also be offered through Macromedia's reseller and distributor channels. In an effort to help our Hosting Partners take advantage of the upcoming demand for ColdFusion 5 features, Macromedia will be providing a special promotional upgrade offer. More information regarding ColdFusion 5 Hosting Edition upgrade promotion, pricing and availability will be released on April 30, 2001. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Cheer up, things could be worse. So I cheered up, and sure enough things got worse. g -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 12:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. Stay tuned. Ahh, but will the FAQ arrive before we all spend the weekend planning our alternatives? :) ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
this topic brings up another, related topic. you can never go wrong learning more than one development language. i really like CF, but being able to create applications in ASP or JSP (we're learning PHP in-house now) has been of great benefit. when clients ask for an app and they're indifferent to the language, we use CF more often than not. but when they ask for ASP or JSP, we can do it. you'll only increase your value and experience by learning more than one language. don't get me wrong; i'm not saying it's necessary, but of all the developers i know, the most successful ones (not just financially) are adept in multiple languages. -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 12:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. Stay tuned. Ahh, but will the FAQ arrive before we all spend the weekend planning our alternatives? :) ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Probably not until the 30th, or it wouldn't answer the most important question...price. That's Monday for you Yahoo's. jon - Original Message - From: Ken Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. Stay tuned. Ahh, but will the FAQ arrive before we all spend the weekend planning our alternatives? :) ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Yes, there is a PHP version for Windows. Regards, Howie Hamlin - inFusion Project Manager On-Line Data Solutions, Inc. www.CoolFusion.com 631-737-4668 x101 inFusion Mail Server (iMS) - The Intelligent Mail Server - Original Message - From: Akbar Pasha [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 3:14 PM Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License is there any book called PHP by April30th?? ;) just wondering...does PHP run on windows?? coz if it comes to that i dont want to go for ASP. i was planning to do something like CFhosting, sortabut dang!!! my other friend was right... -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Let me preface this by saying that it isn't meant as a comment about Macromedia but is a general comment They HAVE to know that abandoning us (and yes, I'm definitely in the low end as well) will only result in the death of CF. Publicly held software companies are beholden to their shareholders and the bottom line. If the management of the company thinks that they can make more money in a process that eliminates 90% of their small scale developers they will do it. No question. If the idea is sound in the long term is another matter entirely. And I think you can look at the history of software development firms to see that foresight and long-term planning are not necessarily skills that the management of software companies have in excess. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
dBase and Sybase both thought they could increase their revenue by increasing their price and look where it got them. You can only increase your price when you don't have competition or you own significant market share. For example, has anyone tried to buy a copy of MS Word 2000 for $99 or $69 with a competitive upgrade. Not recently. When MS had competition, you could by Word dirt cheap. Now, no competition and Word is bundled with a bunch of other stuff you may not want and even upgrades can cost your $250 or more. SQL Server license with unlimited connections could be had for less than $1,000 5 years ago. Today, you can expect to pay $10,000 to $20,000 for a similar license. What changed, almost no competition in the NT-based SQL market. You could buy NT server for less than $500. Today, it can be $5,000. What changed, Novell is no longer a threat. Now these are all Microsoft examples but ask yourself, who is generally Allaire's competitor in this space. Is it IBM? How about OpenSource PHP? Perhaps OracleDev? So who has failed or is really struggling. Sybase, Ingres, cc:Mail, Banyan Vines, Wang Imaging and many more all tried substantial increase in licensing pricing when they ran into hard times. And look what happened. Who else is struggling? Well Allaire for one. Macromedia's performance hasn't been that stellar recently. Sure management can think that increasing price will increase revenue, but history of the software business will show that no company that has ever tried a significant price increase ultimately succeeded. The folks at Allaire and MM are very smart. But for them to believe that a price increase strategy is a good thing is for them to be so arrogant as to assume that all those other companies were run by stupid people. They weren't. In fact some of those same folks now work at Allaire/Macromedia. Cheers! - Steve -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Let me preface this by saying that it isn't meant as a comment about Macromedia but is a general comment They HAVE to know that abandoning us (and yes, I'm definitely in the low end as well) will only result in the death of CF. Publicly held software companies are beholden to their shareholders and the bottom line. If the management of the company thinks that they can make more money in a process that eliminates 90% of their small scale developers they will do it. No question. If the idea is sound in the long term is another matter entirely. And I think you can look at the history of software development firms to see that foresight and long-term planning are not necessarily skills that the management of software companies have in excess. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I just had a couple of thoughts to throw around here. Ok, one. ;p While it's probably premature to be talking about these things when we don't even have the real info yet, It's aways good to be prepared... Before CF was available on Linux, there were at least two efforts to create an open source CF parser. What happened to those? Who's to say that some of couldn't put some effort into a project like that? Tony Schreiber, Senior Partner Man and Machine, Limited mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technocraft.com http://www.simplemessageboard.com ___Free Forum Software for Cold Fusion http://www.is300.net ___The Enthusiast's Home of the Lexus IS300 http://www.digitacamera.com __DigitA Camera Scripts and Tips http://www.linklabexchange.com _Miata Link ECU Data Exchange ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
And as I hit SEND I wondered if you'd realize I meant to say thanks, not that's... which makes a very big difference in this case. :-) -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License As I hit SEND I wondered how long it would be until someone responded with that. g -Original Message- From: Hans Omli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 2:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Do let us know when the FAQ is ready so we can begin panicking. ;-) In the mean time, that's for helping calm our fears. -- Hans Omli -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 10:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Don't panic yet. I believe a FAQ is in the works that will explain all this. Stay tuned. --- Ben Forta ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
Ahh, but will the FAQ arrive before we all spend the weekend planning our alternatives? :) I remember the CF community not being too excited about Allaire raising the price of CF a couple times in the past several years. But we're all still here developing with CF. And Allaire has even given us a free feature-limited version of CF since (ok, maybe it's of very little use to most of us, but...) Any decent CF developer is smarter than to drop CF based on the very limited information we currently have. Maybe we will all decide to move over to PHP, ASP, JSP, Perl, or whatever else after next week's announcement... but I highly doubt it. I'm betting the change isn't as drastic as we're making it out to be though. I'm going to spend my weekend reading through BF's Certified CF Developer Study Guide. Anyone want to share any other tips, hints, or relevant info on passing the exam? Hans Omli ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
One of these days someone will come up with a CF - ASP.NET or CF- PHP code converter, which simply converts CF templates to the new target code. That is the day when MM will need to worry! p.s. - there isn't such a thing is there? Adrian Cooper. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
I am trying to find the Zope by May 1 From: Chris Colón [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:51:38 -0700 'is there any book called PHP by April30th??' - lol A couple folks have asked for it, so here's the text of the announcement that hosting partners received yesterday (apologies if my Netscape Communicator email program parses the line feeds weirdly): - Dear Partner, On April 30, 2001, Macromedia will be announcing the launch of ColdFusion Server 5 and the ColdFusion Server 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition, which consists of a new End-User License for commercial hosting service providers. We are excited to provide you with advanced notice of our announcement of the launch of a new Hosting Edition for ColdFusion 5.0 that offers Web Hosting partners improved functionality as well as new licensing terms. Improved Functionality ColdFusion Server 5 has new functionality that will help hosters improve the management and enhance the performance of hosted ColdFusion servers. It also provides existing ColdFusion users with numerous new features that should drive more business for ColdFusion hosters. The following is brief description of some of those features: * SNMP MIB (Management Information Base)- Provides performance and availability data so that ColdFusion servers can be monitored from within an enterprise systems management console. * Custom Logs - Provides administrators with the ability to customize log reports for individual applications on a shared hosted ColdFusion server. * Enhanced Hardware Load Balancer Integration - Provides the capability to run a server agent that is capable of passing CF application server load and application health information to any of the popular hardware load balancing devices, providing a higher level of site availability and better overall load balancing. * Application Monitoring- Enables server administrators to configure custom monitors that respond to page or application-specific thresholds. When a threshold is passed, the server can send an automatic notification, trigger an automated response, or send a notification to an enterprise management console via SNMP * Application Deployment Services- Provides site archiving features that enable easy back-up and deployment of applications and/or ColdFusion Server configuration data. This simplifies server(s) management by enabling the easy movement of applications between servers, such as from testing to production or from one production server to another in a data center. * Merant ODBC Drivers- ColdFusion 5.0 now includes the Merant ODBC 3.7 drivers on all platforms, including new wire protocol drivers which provide a consistently high-performance interface to all popular data sources. New Licensing Terms The new ColdFusion Server 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition is for web hosting service providers that provide shared hosting services (host multiple ColdFusion applications and/or sites on a single ColdFusion server) for the ColdFusion platform. Starting with the release of ColdFusion 5, the End-User License right to host multiple ColdFusion applications and/or sites on a single ColdFusion server will only be included in the ColdFusion 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition license. The ColdFusion 5 Enterprise and Pro End-User License will no longer permit multiple ColdFusion applications and/or sites to be hosted on a single ColdFusion server. Web hosters that are purchasing ColdFusion 5 servers to host multiple ColdFusion applications and/or sites on a single ColdFusion 5 server will need to purchase the ColdFusion 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition. Web hosters that provide dedicated ColdFusion hosting services (host one ColdFusion application and/or site on a single ColdFusion server), will be able to continue to host ColdFusion customers on either a ColdFusion Enterprise or Pro server license. The ColdFusion 5 Hosting Service Provider Edition: * Will be priced on a per CPU basis * Can be purchased directly from Macromedia on a per CPU basis, or through Macromedia's Commercial Service Providers (CSP) License Program that provides payment terms that map to a Hosting Service Providers business model. * Will also be offered through Macromedia's reseller and distributor channels. In an effort to help our Hosting Partners take advantage of the upcoming demand for ColdFusion 5 features, Macromedia will be providing a special promotional upgrade offer. More information regarding ColdFusion 5 Hosting Edition upgrade promotion, pricing and availability will be released on April 30, 2001. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk
RE: New CF5 Partner Hosting License
On this same note, I am becoming more than a little concerned that MM sees Cold Fusion as nothing but a platform to help push Flash. If that's the case, I'm gone. Kevin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/26/01 01:57PM It sounds like MM is going to throw the CF community a bone and then stick us in the pound. They kill Spectra, restructure licensing, float our pallets, and make us develop with a Studio / UltraDev hybrid. All this comes from the boardroom, not a developer wish list. Former Drumbeat developers still don't have a comparable solution in UltraDev. You have to remember, MM wants to make money, not necessarily provide a better development environment for us. This can be achieved by bringing CF down to the point a general HTML developer can create a viable application. Paul -Original Message- From: Chris Colón [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 2:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: New CF5 Partner Hosting License Heh. I agree, but I doubt that'll be the case. At the end of the announcement was this bit: In an effort to help our Hosting Partners take advantage of the upcoming demand for ColdFusion 5 features, Macromedia will be providing a special promotional upgrade offer. More information regarding ColdFusion 5 Hosting Edition upgrade promotion, pricing and availability will be released on April 30, 2001. We probably wouldn't need a special promotional upgrade offer unless the cost is going up. Nevermind that the upgrade will probably consist of no new or extra features (unless you count complying with the new, more expensive license as a feature). Robert Long wrote: Anyone seen a pricing structure for cf5? We're going to feel pretty ackward if they actually lower the prices. ;-) If not, then I agree with you. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
