You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically sync
with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and usually is
off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can move a Center
position on the P3 with the select knob in the CENTER
David Gilbert wrote:
make them unusable for recording simple RF. A DVR might not have that
problem, although noise and signal levels could still be an issue. It
might also be the case that any standard video recorder (or at least the
software associated with it) might try to insert sync
My P3 shows a rounded version of what is on the K3 when they are
synced. When my K3 says 7.100.000 the P3 shows 7.100.0 when I go to
7.100.050 it goes to 7.100.1 its a rounded version. So when my P3 and
K3 are synced (by simply pressing center twice) I can read the
frequency on the K3 and know
You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't
automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line
on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz.
You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz from the
K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold
It would be fine if the P3 could provide a configurable K2 emulation mode to
communicate with the K2 and to support an
appropriate (sub-)set of the exciting P3 functions in conjunction with the K2.
Any pros and cons?
73, Heinz HB9BCB
Makes sense.
I guess someone wanting a cheap and dirty solution would have to use a
down-converting mixer and record to a file via a sound card, and then
mix back to a ham band (assuming, as I suspect would be the case, that
for a demo they'd be willing to put up with the image and carrier).
I just received my P3, serial number 108, in Berkshire, England via UPS.
I don't think I'll have time to put this together until next week, but we'll
see.
It cam with the K3IOBUFFKT - K3 I.F I/O Output buffer mod kit - but I didn't
realise this and ordered one too, unfortunately, sales didn't
4 grounding rods and two of those alpha delta gas discharge surge protectors
couldn't stop mother nature. It appears my K3 has met a very early death by
electrocution (from lightning.)
It turns on, but even after an EE INIT, I'm still getting a KP3IO error.
There's a god awful noise coming
Ouch, and such a young one too! There's a message here - when Ma Nature
visits with lightning, unless you're an electrical engineer with a
perfect station configuration, the only relatively secure way to do
things is to disconnect everything. Even a relatively short length of
cable (RS-232,
Hear, hear. Second the motion. I have 16 cables to disconnect and do it
religiously - Florida is the lightning capital of the universe. (Of course,
when my K3 s/n# 699 was brand new, I didn't bother. Thank you, Gary and
Elecraft, for restoring it 2 years ago.)
Monty K2DLJ
Ouch, and such
I had previously tried it with FN 1 and FN 2 without success. I just now
tried it with FN 7 and get the same result.
Brett N7MG who is one of the field testers has indicated that this is, or
has been, a known issue - so I am confident that it will be resolved in an
upcoming firmware revision.
Received shipping notification last night (8/11). I ordered mine
sometime around 1430CST on 4/16 so they are into day 2 now.
Philip
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Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help:
Dont assume that you have to replace the radio. Several boards had to be
replaced (over $1600) in mine after an April strike, but the modularity of
the radio made it possible to repair it. I wanted to keep the insurance
claim as low as I could as I had other damage, but I would have replaced
Yesterday I received notification from Olivia of shipment within 7 to 10
days of the P3 ordered approx noon EST on the 16th of April. Looks like
they have completed the initial group from the 15th.
73 Doug VE3MV
__
Elecraft
Even though this is a very busy time with the early shipping of the P3s and one
of the Elecraft service techs on vacation, I still had a major problem
diagnosed and a new board sent to me overnight. my K3 was back in operation in
less than 24 hours.
Great job guys.
73 de W6BK
Brett Howard wrote:
The center follows the K3 you can tell where it is based on the fact
that there is a K3 next to you. So long as you've got the two synced
and don't have a center offset in you know where the center is.
Correct. I believe his confusion is thinking the P3 display is
Fred is right on!
I would add that besides putting something in the subject. Like K2 it should
be in brackets, [K2]. Reason, if it's K2, the email filter will catch K2GN,
and put it in the targeted folder too.
And, please, like Elecraft requested, your text at the top with pertinent
information
This is also stated in the list guidelines posted earlier this week.
73,
Eric
Elecraft List Modulator, Moderator, etc.
www.elecraft.com
_..._
On Aug 12, 2010, at 7:10 AM, Larry - K2GN k...@comcast.net wrote:
Fred is right on!
I would add that besides putting something in the subject. Like
Bill W4ZV wrote:
3. Adjustment resolution of the P3's Ref Cal steps. Adjustment steps are
10 Hz (at the P3's 60 MHz clock). At WWV's 15 MHz (1/4 of 60 MHz), each
adjustment step is 1/4 of 10 Hz = 2.5 Hz, which results in a maximum 1/2
step uncertainty (1.25 Hz) in adjustment resolution
I'm going to disagree with the popular but misplaced notion that when
lightning hits nothing can be done to prevent damage other than a complete
disconnect.
The real problem is almost always that people pepper the station with
protection devices but use poor wiring layouts or poor entrance
I forgot, in the heat of playing with a new toy, to pass something along that
may help others. My P3 came loaded with the latest firmware, so I was happily
using it, and having some strange issues, like excessive display flickering,
signals not centered, readout on P3 not matching K3's dial,
How does one tune PSK31 on the K3 such that the built in decoder can
read it. Tuning seems to be very selective and without a waterfall
nearly impossible to tune. The capture range of the AFC doesn't seem
to be very wide. The CWT spotting function sometimes helps but only
on stronger signals.
1) Use CWT.
2) Use a narrow filter. Once you find the station you want to copy,
tighten the filter and retune as necessary. 50 Hz is not too tight.
300 Hz is too wide. If you are hearing two stations, then the
selectivity is not tight enough.
3) Use auto-spot. You may have to hit it
Don Cunningham wrote:
I forgot, in the heat of playing with a new toy, to pass something along
that may help others. My P3 came loaded with the latest firmware, so I
was happily using it, and having some strange issues, like excessive
display flickering, signals not centered, readout on
Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then... That still
wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it.
From: br...@livecomputers.com
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:15:02 -0700
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
To: notforc...@hotmail.com
CC:
Right now I'm up to my ears with P3 bug fixes and implementing promised
features. But when things quiet down a little I definitely want to
modify my K2 to add IF output and work on implementing the K2 command
set in the P3. It won't be as closely integrated as the K3 but it
should at least
I agree with you for once Joe... 50Hz sounds right. If you Ref cal from that
point than you'll most likely be 4 to 5Hz off. I've not once been able to get
it to 1Hz resolution. Yes, this is enough to hit the spot button, but having
the extra two digits would be very helpful.
Date: Thu,
Please don't take this comment to be frivolous or intentionally
snippy...but my take on the decoding functions built into the K3
firmware is that at this stage they are gimmicks or toys.
As Ron observes, even an old warhorse like Digipan works much
better (...more easily, less
Totally agree in the majority, but with years in the fire department
Lightning strikes tree next to house. Single point ground is 80 feet
away on far side of house. Lightning does not go to ground, and jumps
from trunk of tree to side of house leaving extensive burn mark on
trunk and side
The required ref level varies a lot depending on time of day, etc. It would
still need to
be adjusted often. I would prefer to see some kind of settable AGC.
On 8/11/2010 9:36 PM, Craig D. Smith wrote:
After two days with the P3, here are some observations and questions.
Could the following
Hello Wise and Powerful Reflector;
I have a couple of doublets I feed with balanced line. The balanced
line goes to a current balun and then a short coax run (5') to my
tuner. After the tuner I have another short coax run (3') to a coax
switch that places either my antenna analyzer or the
I have TWO TopTen Devices Yaesu/K3 band decoders WITH the decoder to K3
interconnect cables in excellent condition for sale. Presently in use and they
will be available after NEXT weekend. They both have the ability to do 12V
source
and sinc.
I would like $100 for each combo (decoder and
Eric,
The only danger to the K3 that I can think of is if you fail to turn the
switch to the K3 position and subsequently transmit.
If you listen before transmitting, you should be able to determine that
the switch is incorrect - no signals equal switch in the wrong position.
73,
Don W3FPR
They are intended for casual operation and within the confines of the
LCD panel of the K3.
I've found both the RTTY and the PSK decoder to work well when checked
against DM780, Digipan, and MMTTY.
But certainly not as quick as clicking on a waterfall :-)
73,
Lyle KK7P
Please don't
This is an excellent point.
Thank you for illustrating it. With a narrow filter, 100Hz
resolution does not cut it in CW, although W4TV's proposed
CWT macro magic will work around it, that is, if we could
learn what the macro definitions would be with a programming
manual. :)
I would like to
Actually...
In a CW contest, where following packet spots can put you on the exact
same frequency with all the other braying lemmings, contributing to
your signal's non-pickoutable status at the other end, being off the
crowd frequency by 20-50 hertz is a SUCCESSFUL strategy to break
through the
That was quick. One is spoken for...on still available.
-
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065
On Thu Aug 12 10:11 , Greg - AB7R sent:
I have TWO TopTen Devices Yaesu/K3 band decoders WITH the decoder to K3
interconnect cables in excellent condition for sale.
Your friends are probably concerned that you'll transmit into a very high
SWR if you transmit when the switch is in position to switch the analyzer
into the circuit. Transmitters do not like open or grounded antenna circuits
at the output - they're the ultimate high SWR condition.
Of course, if
So now I am getting a much better understanding...
What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is never more than 50
cycles from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat
acceptable.
However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON
the
I'm kind of new to this whole insurance claim thing... The person I spoke to on
the phone from the insurance company was pretty insistent that they just wanted
replacement cost.
I asked the guy about one of the computers that I built myself from parts, and
he didn't want to know about all
Hola,
I have a OEM battery for a Blackberry, model C-S2. I think it fits the
8300-8500 and 8700 series of BB. I ordered, received it and opened the
package before realizing that my 8900 takes diff battery. Unopened meant
not able to return.
I will be in the states for two weeks starting 16 Aug.
Bob,
I think your idea for fine tuning using the P3 is great. I hope you convayed
your idea directly to Elecraft.
73
Dave KD1NA
P3 s/n 74 arrived today, went together nicely and works great. I'm
still getting used to it, but as a long-time LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF user,
I was struck by one thing
Hi All,
Those with P3 in hand.
Have you got SS hardware or normal h/w ?
If possible,I would like to start of with SS h/w
at the outset instead of retrofit at a later date.
Have got mail for P3 confirmation,placed order
on 16Apr'10.
73 es GD DX,
No what is going on is the P3 only displays one decimal point after
Khz. Its dead on and it knows what the actual frequency is its just
that it rounds it to save a little space at the center of the display.
Move your eyes over to the radio or your logging software and you get
a full readout of
Well, that's what I get for reading this list while at work
and trying to multi-task with other stuff...
W4ZV states that the P3 display is NOT controlling the K3,
but it's actually the other way around.
Now this makes more sense. Let me know if I have understood
this correctly: The P3 display
You should also do a reset of the P3 after the reload of the latest
software. Hold the MENU/LABELS key while turning the P3 power on.
Hold the button till it says configuration reset. You'll lose your
reference calibration and any of your FN labels but this has been
known to flush out some of
Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then...
That still wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it.
50 Hz is only the accuracy of the readout. Set Span to 2 KHz and
move MKR A ... you will notice it moves with much finer resolution
than 100 Hz steps. With a span
This was exactly my point - unless you have a letter-perfect
installation, leaving things connected and relying on a bunch of gas
tubes is a recipe for disaster. As Guy suggested, disconnection won't
always prevent damage, but remaining connected with less than
professionally designed and
Lu,
I don't think the accuracy is a problem, it is the rounding of the
frequency that is displayed on the P3 - that is simply resolution of the
frequency indicated. At least that is my understanding from a perusal
of the P3 manual.
The screen is continuous, but a frequency of 7035.265
Here is the compatibility listing for the C-S2 battery, FWIW.
http://www.wirelessground.com/blba10mahoro.html
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:22:29 -0300, cx...@4email.net wrote:
Hola,
I have a OEM battery for a Blackberry, model C-S2. I think it fits the
8300-8500 and 8700 series of BB. I ordered,
Make sure you have the latest software installed and do a
configuration reset by holding MENU/LABELS while turning the P3 on.
Continue to hold MENU/LABELS till it says that its reset things. Then
reconfigure your ref cal and your FN labels and see if it takes care
of things for you. Thankfully
Just FYI, Tripp Lite says their DB9R uses avalanche diodes. From Wikipedia:
A common application is protecting electronic circuits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_circuit against damaging high
voltages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overvoltage. The avalanche diode
is connected to the
On Aug 12, 2010, at 8/129:09 AM, Lyle Johnson wrote:
... Tuning is critical and an error of more than 5 Hz changes from
solid copy to no copy.
With a binary PSK demodulator, you can be off tuned up to an amount of
plus or minus 90 degrees of perfect phase coherency between bit
Yes, this is enough to hit the spot button, but having the extra two
digits would be very helpful.
You don't need the extra digits for REF CAL. Simply zero beat your
reference signal on the K3, Hold CENTER twice to align the P3 Center
frequency with the K3, then turn on REF CAL and adjust
Ron,
I share the same challenges with PSK and RTTY decoding. My baseline is to
operate my K3 while RV camping and to explore as much as I can without using
a computer. I don't have full answers and folks like Lyle have been most
helpful. I was last on HF 25 years ago so my K3, SN 4335, is
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 10:32:59 -0400, Tom W8JI wrote:
I'm going to disagree with the popular but misplaced notion that when
lightning hits nothing can be done to prevent damage other than a complete
disconnect.
The real problem is almost always that people pepper the station with
protection
I just did the reset and it fixed the problem with the waterfall
function disappearing from the FN keys. I had never done a reset
previously. Thanks Brett!
73 Craig AC0DS
You should also do a reset of the P3 after the reload of the latest
software.
One thing that is important to remember is to make sure the threshold setting
is
set so that the signal indicator on the CWT meter is set to beat with the
signal.
If you have it set for copying moderately strong signals and you try to copy a
weak
one you may need to adjust the threshold a
What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is never more than 50
cycles from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat
acceptable.
You take what I said out of context. That statement was in
reference to the FREQUENCY DISPLAY. The
Given the similarities between the K2 and K3 command sets, one should
not need more than the Clifton Research Z-10 buffer to bring out
the K2 IF and select the proper IF frequency in the P3. The radio
data rate would need to be changed to 4800 bps (only rate supported
by the KIO2) and the
The K3's PSK encoder and decoder (used in DATA: PSK D mode) uses a
pitch just above 1,000 Hz.
If you narrow the badnwidth and use the CWT feature, you'll get the PSK
signal. YOU can use the SPOT function in conjunction with the CWT
indicator in this mode as described in the K3 manual.
For
I strongly agree. Proper bonding is probably more important than
protection devices (although I wouldn't do without either). And
IMPROPER bonding, or missing bonding, is a common CAUSE of lightning
damage.
Not to be piling on ... but improper bonding will GUARANTEE lightning
damage. Any
If one absolutely insists on branch circuit protection at the AC receptacle,
MOV shunt mode from line-to-neutral, rather than line-to-ground, is
generally acceptable. These are referred to as single-mode surge
protection devices (SPD). By contrast, most receptacle and power strip SPDs
Just a note to those ordering a P3 and have not done the above mod - you don't
need to order the mod separatey, it comes with the P3.
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174, P3 #108
--
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose
from. -Andrew Tannenbaum, computer science professor
I also got one of the referenced kits with my P3 and my radio was late
enough not to need it. I would send it to anyone with an older rig that
needs it for another purpose (not ordering the P3, that is).
73,
Don, WB5HAK
__
Elecraft
Thanks to all that replied. I guess the problem is not with me... I
expected PSK31 operation to be less critical after playing with
Digipan. I also had hoped to use the computer interface to
incorporate PSK/RTTY operation into my home brew logger/station
control. But between tuning
No, it's not a joke! I've just inventoried my P3 kit and the 2 9/16' BNC Nuts
are missing from the Chassis Hardware - E850409 packet. I've checked the
entire kit and the aren’t there, including ensuring they aren’t on the 2 BNC
sockets. The 4 lock washers are in the packet.
Have mailed Sales,
These nuts were also missing from SN107 kit.
Ed - W0YK
--Original Message--
From: David Ferrington, M0XDF
Sender: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] [P3] - missing Nuts
Sent: Aug 12, 2010 14:19
No, it's not a joke! I've just inventoried my
Just had a mail from Lisa, they are shipping Int'l priority.
Can't fault Elecraft of customer service.
Interesting it's the number before mine Ed.
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174, P3 #108
--
There is no pillow so soft as a clear conscience. -French proverb
On 12 Aug 2010, at 22:40, Ed Muns wrote:
This morning I picked up P3 Kit No.77 (ordered April 15) from the
Parcelforce Leeds Depot. I assembled it this afternoon and it works well :-)
Luckily I have all my nuts ;-) but the following minor points arose, mainly
about the latest manual and errata:-
1. As far as I can tell, having
You are much better off using the current limiting feature of your dc
supply. A fuse is not fast enough to protect any electronic circuitry.
Strictly speaking a fuse in line is rated to protect the cable in the event
of a short circuit in the rig which would be a very big fuse, far bigger
I completely agree with you. The inline fuses are there for mobile
installations where you have a direct connection to the car battery. On my
ICOM radios I have always shortened the power cable removing the inline fuse
in the process.
AB2TC - Knut
David Cutter wrote:
You are much better off
Follow the instructions and check the + terminal to - with an ohm meter for any
shorts. The problem you face is the transistor is the worlds fastest fuse and
on initial turn on you are looking at a low current surge as the unit charges
the supply and decoupling caps. A full current rated fuse
The fuse is used to prevent secondary failure. Fast response fuses are timed
in msecs. Besides when was the last time anybody put a high current amp meter
across the output of their power supply to test the current limiting point?
George, W6GF
The best method is Wayne's suggestion from way back:
In both Neg and Pos leads, supply a fuseholder and fuse. I use the
stubby fuses from Motorola @ 30A, you should use something like
that. These are T-rated, meaning they're designed to open with a DC
load. Don't use a fuse out of your home's
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Please help support this email list:
I had an issue with W2. Could not figure out what was going on. It was
WORKING! Cables ok, everything tested ok. Had current firmware... reloaded
it again. Fixed! WHEW!
When in doubt, reload, reboot.
Bill
-Original Message-
I forgot, in the heat of playing with a new toy, to pass
I will do more testing. The auto detect is off, and I have good
baluns/chokes on both of my antennas. It may be that I'm too close to my new
elevated 40 vertical antenna.
--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K2-internal-keyer-problem-tp5385342p5418371.html
No worries. I figured this stuff out in a later post. The
K3 is the boss, the P3 is the slave. Sorry about the
bandwidth. I aint thinking correctly at work. Trying to do
too much at once.
-lu-
- Original Message Follows -
From: Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com
To:
Positive lead fuses are a good idea.
Negative lead fuses never were a good idea unless the radio has a totally
floating negative buss.
If the negative lead fuse to the radio opens for any reason all the negative
lead current for the radio will flow through the negative lead of any
accessories
Am I the only one who is missing the hole cover strip that was added to the
parts list and assembly instructions in the latest errata to the P3 manual?
I looked everywhere and this is my second inventory of parts. It is not
critical and will not hold up my assembly but I was curious if anyone
It was just received at the factory and added to the product. I
suspect everyone will get one as amatter of course. If there isn't an
announcemnt or a contact in the next few days, you might send an email
requesting one.
Mine doesn't have one, either :-)
73,
Lyle kK7P
Am I the only one
Most of us don't yet have the hole cover.
Dick, K6KR
-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil Hystad
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:09 PM
To: elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] [P3] Missing Part: The
Am I the only one who is missing the hole cover strip that was added
to the parts list and assembly instructions in the latest errata to
the P3 manual?
No. It appears to have been added somewhere around s/n 60 along with
the IF buffer mod. Neither was present in s/n 37.
73,
...
Tom,
You are absolutely correct. Take a mobile situation - the radio's power
ground is connected to the transceiver chassis ground, as is the coax
shield, microphone shield and other stuff. All that stuff can (and
will) connect to the vehicle chassis at some point. I know the coax
will
I'm assembling K3 #4564, my third K3 build, and I can't get the front panel to
mate with the DSP board. The problem seems to be at J32 and the pins won't
fully penetrate the female connector. The standoffs near there miss toiching
the underside of the DSP by about 1/16 I've accidentally
s/n 81 no hole cover strip but did include K3 I/O output buffer mod kit.
73 Bill NS4C
-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:18 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
What is the IF Buffer Mod -- did I miss something? I am Serial number 0030.
On Aug 12, 2010, at 6:18 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
Am I the only one who is missing the hole cover strip that was added
to the parts list and assembly instructions in the latest errata to
the P3 manual?
No.
Phil,
The documentation is available from the Elecraft website. It is only a
resistor value change.
Yes, K3 SN 0030 will need it.
73,
Don W3FPR
Phil Hystad wrote:
What is the IF Buffer Mod -- did I miss something? I am Serial number 0030.
It's described in your P3 manual at the top of page 5.
Ron AC7AC
-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil Hystad
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 7:22 PM
To: Joe Subich, W4TV
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
While enjoying completing my K2 #6963, I see where the manual several times
refers to 'masking material' covering holes in the various cabinel panels.
There isn't any tape on any of my panels. They didn't come with any. Am I
missing something or are these just outdated references?
Brian
There's always a chance the vendor fails to remove all the masking material
that keeps the paint off of the panel in those places, so we include
instructions to check and make sure the metal surfaces are clean and
unpainted.
Ron AC7AC
-Original Message-
While enjoying completing my K2
The K3 manual states that the PSK31 and RTTY functionality
is adequate for CASUAL use without a computer or something
like that.
If youre somewhat SERIOUS, you would be much better off to
use external decoders to do any REAL work on those modes.
I dont think it the built in PSK and RTTY modes
Neither was shipped with SN 67.
... Craig AC0DS
No. It appears to have been added somewhere around s/n 60 along with
the IF buffer mod. Neither was present in s/n 37.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home:
P3 #96 finally arrived today. After assembling the display module to the front
panel, I realized there was this empty hole where the Power button was
supposed to be.
Found the button in the bottom of the display's protective bag. Groan. Those
membranes are really fragile. No way to tell
Lu,
You can output decoded text from the RS-232 port. Put K3Utility into
Terminal mode and the decoded text will appear in the K3Utility window.
You can also type into the Transmit pane and it will be transmitted.
Works for either RTTY or PSK31. Lacking the computer, you can use the
The hole cover labels just came in last week and were not included in early P3
shipments. We know who these are and will be sending them out to everyone.
73,
Eric. WA6HHQ
www.elecraft.com
_..._
On Aug 12, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Phil Hystad phys...@mac.com wrote:
Am I the only one who is missing
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