At 6:45 PM -0500 9/23/02, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
Christopher BJ Smith wrote:
Hmm, doing the lyrics last might be an example of changing one's work
habits to suit the computer. Often when I am composing to a given set
of lyrics, I set the lyrics in the measures first, then the rhythms,
On 23 Sep 2002 at 20:38, Mark D. Lew wrote:
At 3:48 PM 09/23/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
No. I mean the AUTO UPDATE checkbox in the click assignment dialog. I
assume it's intended to update the score in the background, but it is
not reliable. It seems to work for the first syllable of a
At 1:30 AM 09/24/02, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
[answering me]
But, as John Blane correctly pointed out, deleting in Adjust
Syllables is safer than either.
True, but I had not been aware this was an option until very recently, and
have not
had the time to gain any experience with it.
It
At 4:12 PM 09/24/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
[answering me]
I never use the Auto Update checkbox. I'm still not clear what it is that
bothers you about click-assignment without Auto Update, but I don't really
need to know. The program should be designed so that you can work with
Type-in-Score
At 8:06 PM 09/22/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
I had a score that printed out correctly, but I made the mistake of
looking at the source text in EDIT LYRICS and saw a lot of excess
hyphens, many of them at the *beginning* of syllables. So I was
deleting a few and seeing what happened. The first few
At 8:06 PM -0400 9/22/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
This is straight-out arranging, happening while I do the inputting.
Yes, I do the lyrics last, naturally.
Hmm, doing the lyrics last might be an example of changing one's work
habits to suit the computer. Often when I am composing to a given
At 8:18 AM 09/21/02, Bernard Savoie wrote:
I second Linda's comment. I've also been a long-time user [...]
But once I
understood the way the lyrics tool works I have seldom had any problems,
[...] But you have to be aware of the pitfalls which you can easily fall
into.
Actually, I
At 09/22/2002 07:27 PM, Mark D. Lew wrote:
Before this discussion I hadn't realized that so many other users are
accustomed to entering lyrics in a way so completely different from mine.
As an occasional user, but often using lyrics:
I had a lot of problems using type in score. So I read
Robert Patterson wrote:
I actually prefer the mirrored lyrics approach, but it requires
forethought and discipline. Generally, unless you are truly writing
a multiverse piece, such as a hymn, you should put all your lyrics
in a single verse. This avoids the baseline headaches that others
have
On 23 Sep 2002 at 0:44, Mark D. Lew wrote:
At 8:06 PM 09/22/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
But I feel *very* uncomfortable with click assigning the lyrics. One
problem is the size of the dialog and the fact that it is tough to
tell where you are in repetitive text. But I discovered another
At 3:48 PM -0400 9/23/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
Try this:
Create a new document, and input 4 quarter notes.
With TYPE IN SCORE, put in Hal-le-lu-jah as the lyrics
Now, go to the le syllable, and change it to le,.
Then change the lu to Deutsch- and the jah to land.
You'll see that you have
I should have been more precise. Where I wrote
snip
If one deletes the same syllables in "edit
lyrics" mode, OTH, all of
the syllables in the balance of the string visible in the "edit lyrics"
window
get shifted to the left two places, even when this takes the first
syllable of
one staff and
At 7:28 AM 09/23/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
[answering Christopher BJ Smith]
That's one more reason why I still compose and arrange with pencil
and paper, and only go to Finale afterwards to make it look nice.
You're right. I realize that I'm uncomfortable composing music with text in
At 12:00 PM 09/23/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You have got to be kidding! After all of the verbage on this subject and you
still draw this conclusion? Deleting almost anything in type-in-score is not
at all safer or recommended. God help us if David Fenton follows *this*
advice and we have to
At 3:48 PM 09/23/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
No. I mean the AUTO UPDATE checkbox in the click assignment dialog. I
assume it's intended to update the score in the background, but it is
not reliable. It seems to work for the first syllable of a measure,
and then the lyrics go blank for the rest of
At 7:49 PM 09/23/02, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
If one deletes the same syllables in edit lyrics mode,
OTH, all of the syllables in the balance of the string visible in the
edit lyrics
window
get shifted to the left by the same number of places as the number of syllables
deleted, even when this
On Friday, Sep 20, 2002, at 17:47 US/Pacific, Christopher BJ Smith
wrote:
But my question was aimed at the intended implementation of hyphens
that Dennis was proposing. I'm familiar with sound editing programs
such as Pro Tools and Cubase Audio, so I know approximately about the
mapping
At 8:47 PM 09/20/02, Christopher BJ Smith wrote:
I'm on Mac, but the only thing your solution does is make the hyphen
(which should be butt up against the first syllable on its right
side) drift over to halfway between the first syllable and the
opt-space. Also, the next note after the
From: Linda Worsley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Finale] Lyrics Freakout
I've been following this thread for quite a while now, with amazement:
A lot of what I put into Finale, uses lyrics (lots of songs, choral
works-- multiple verses, multiple endings, various arcane
At 2:01 AM -0800 9/21/02, Mark D. Lew wrote:
To me that feels very roundabout and geeky. On the other hand, I don't
particularly mind typing out Kyrie eleison, eleison, eleison! Kyrie
eleison, eleison! Christe eleison, eleison, eleison, eleison, eleison!
Christe eleison! Kyrie eleison,
At 12:19 AM 09/20/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
Forget how Finale's lyrics work now. Just drop the concept.
OK.
In what I'm
proposing, no 'understanding' would be needed. A hyphen or space would just
be a marker processed by the display system, and could just as easily be
moused in place
I have to edit a video due Wednesday morning, so this will probably be my
last post until next week -- I'll do my best! I'm only pursuing this
because the lyrics portion of Finale has flummoxed many people, not just on
this list. My composer colleague David goes into red-faced rages over it --
I've been following this thread for quite a while now, with amazement:
A lot of what I put into Finale, uses lyrics (lots of songs, choral
works-- multiple verses, multiple endings, various arcane
configurations) and ...
Am I the only person on Finalelist who has almost NO trouble using
The only problems I've had are with word extensions, and even those
are pretty easy to solve. Am I missing something?
Linda Worsley
No.
Ronald M. Krentzman
RM Music Preparation
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 19 Sep 2002 at 19:49, Mark D. Lew wrote:
At 6:30 PM 09/19/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
[]
You're lapsing into Mac-speak -- I have no idea what you mean by
OPTION-CLICK. I understand that it's one of the shift keys, but it is
peculiar to the Mac, and I don't know what it maps to on Windows,
On 19 Sep 2002 at 20:53, Mark D. Lew wrote:
At 9:18 PM 09/19/02, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
I don't enter consecutive hyphens as much anymore either, but they get
generated in
type into score mode when one has [...]
[...] the original separators persist, so that an examination of the
lyrics
On 19 Sep 2002 at 20:53, Mark D. Lew wrote:
I still don't see what's so logical or intuitive about having all the text
in a single stream. How does the first word the alto sings follow naturally
after the last word the soprano sings?
I don't think that is logical, either -- it is the
On 20 Sep 2002 at 10:42, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
To digress to this ownership thing: The ownership of the slur was one of
the best moves Finale ever made, attaching as it does to two objects. And
it shows what could be done for all objects that are not a fixed size.
Fixed size objects
On 20 Sep 2002 at 10:42, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
GUI thumbwheels. Maybe they have different names on Macs -- for example, in
the staff dialog, you can go from one staff to the other using the droplist
or the thumbwheel to the right of the droplist. Thumbwheel up creates a new
text pool
On 20 Sep 2002 at 10:42, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
Modern audio and especially video editing belong to the class of NLE --
non-linear editing. A typical film montage during an action scene is an
example -- many angles and zooms and motions and cutaways and sound and
effects and voices are
On 20 Sep 2002 at 10:42, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
And now to those folks who resisted it, nondestructive editing is the best
thing since sliced bread (a phrase that had no meaning to me until we
started buying local bread with hard crusts).
This phrase has always prompted me to ask:
What
On 20 Sep 2002 at 12:00, Ronald M. Krentzman wrote:
The only problems I've had are with word extensions, and even those
are pretty easy to solve. Am I missing something?
Linda Worsley
No.
Had I not run into problems with the copying having created a mirror
so that I screwed up the
At 2:18 PM -0400 9/20/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 19 Sep 2002 at 19:49, Mark D. Lew wrote:
At 6:30 PM 09/19/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
[]
You're lapsing into Mac-speak -- I have no idea what you mean by
OPTION-CLICK. I understand that it's one of the shift keys, but it is
peculiar to
At 03:10 PM 9/20/02 -0400, you wrote:
What was the best thing *before* sliced bread?
Semantically speaking, these two blocks of text are equivalent:
[snip]
Too much redundant text. You don't need it. The whole text pool is:
Kyrie eleison
Christe eleison
(The second eleison is not really
At 5:02 AM 09/20/02, Dennis W. Manasco wrote:
I am sure that this is all excellent advice. I will study it and try
to improve my experience with lyrics by using it.
However, let me cynically reply with,
dwm's Abridged Version of MDL's FINALE LYRICS FOR IMBECILES
Obviously, it was largely
[cc to Coda]
Am I the only person on Finalelist who has almost NO trouble using
Finale's lyric entry system?
No.
I joined this thread because I have a geeky interest in how the data
behaves, and because I thought (incorrectly, perhaps...) that I might be
able help some others who were having
At 3:52 PM -0800 9/20/02, Mark D. Lew wrote:
At 6:52 AM 09/20/02, Christopher BJ Smith wrote:
What if you are in a first ending, and the lyric is a-bout with the
first syllable on the last note of the first ending? Is the hyphen
extended to the first syllable of the second ending, which might
At 7:19 PM 09/18/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
When lyrics are not considered simple straight text as the default state,
but rather some sort of 'objects', then you're in geek mode. I think that's
just not acceptable behavior, and that anyone has adapted to it is only a
statement of their
At 7:19 pm -0400 9/18/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
I'm gonna defend David on this one, because although I've used
Finale for nearly 11 years, I despise using lyrics and find the
whole system distasteful and regressive.
Thank you Dennis for standing up to say this. I seldom use lyrics
with
At 12:42 AM 9/19/02 -0800, Mark D. Lew wrote:
OK, but couldn't the same be said about pretty much any feature? Couldn't
you say, for example, that speedy entry is an awkward and counterintuitive
system and the fact that you and I get good results out of it is evidence
only our our flexibility?
On Thu, 19 September 2002, Dennis W. Manasco wrote:
A database that allows itself to be
irretrievably corrupted through reasonable user actions is a pretty
fragile database.
I agree with this statement, but I do not agree that Finale's lyrics
implementation conforms to it. It is true that
At 4:49 AM 09/19/02, Dennis W. Manasco wrote:
That is the most absurd part of the problem: That an error in
judgement in manipulating lyrics can cause (seemingly) irreparable
damage to your file. A database that allows itself to be
irretrievably corrupted through reasonable user actions is a
On 18 Sep 2002 at 7:02, Robert Patterson wrote:
On Wed, 18 September 2002, David W. Fenton wrote:
Those are all indications of an ill-thought-out UI and bugs in the
implementation.
David, David. This is Finale we are talking about. Aren't you one of its
long-term users?
At 8:47 AM 09/19/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
Certainly, and there are systems that work that way. But pitches have a
much stronger linkage in all directions than words. And I think that what
you're looking for is perfectly achievable if text still behaved like text,
however the program
[CC to Coda. If replying to all, consider trimming headers.]
At 7:13 AM 09/19/02, Robert Patterson wrote:
Someone said that the implementation is geeky. It *is* geeky, but (as Mark Lew
eloquently stated) it is very powerful. Sometimes geeky is okay, even if it
requires a little more thought
On 18 Sep 2002 at 17:01, Christopher BJ Smith wrote:
(You
know about opt-click, right? This assigns ALL the syllables in the
edit window to the notes automatically, from the first note you click
until it encounters an empty measure or runs out of lyrics. Very
cool. You can shift right
On 18 Sep 2002 at 17:08, Christopher BJ Smith wrote:
At 9:33 AM -0400 9/18/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
Oh, bollocks. This is an instance where Finale is fundamentally
broken. The default behavior of the copy is one issue alone, an ill-
chosen default with no sensible alternative. But the
David W. Fenton wrote:
Anyway, on to my solution:
I took someone's advice to insert and symbols in the lyrics
via TYPE IN SCORE so that I could find them in the EDIT LYRICS
window. What I saw was a jumble of lyrics, with parts of one word
stuck in the middle of other words.
David W. Fenton wrote:
What I understand now is that the lyrics subsystem is designed around
a number of assumptions about the way lyrics ought to work:
1. all voices will sing exactly the same lyrics at one time or the
other.
2. the punctuation and capitalization of the lyrics in all
Robert Patterson wrote:
On Thu, 19 September 2002, Dennis W. Manasco wrote:
A database that allows itself to be
irretrievably corrupted through reasonable user actions is a pretty
fragile database.
I agree with this statement, but I do not agree that Finale's lyrics
implementation
At 9:33 AM 09/18/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
However correct you may be as the voice of experience, that is the
most ludicrous advice I've ever heard. [...]
That's a really serious indictment of the stability of the Finale
file format.
First of all, David, welcome to the club. Those
On 19 Sep 2002 at 0:42, Mark D. Lew wrote:
I can't tell if your objection is only to the interface and its unexpected
behavior, or to the basic concept of having lyrics be assignments to a
separate, ordered list of items. If it's the latter you object to, then I
would very much like to know
On 19 Sep 2002 at 7:13, Robert Patterson wrote:
On Thu, 19 September 2002, Dennis W. Manasco wrote:
A database that allows itself to be
irretrievably corrupted through reasonable user actions is a pretty
fragile database.
I agree with this statement, but I do not agree that
On 19 Sep 2002 at 12:16, Mark D. Lew wrote:
At 4:49 AM 09/19/02, Dennis W. Manasco wrote:
That is the most absurd part of the problem: That an error in
judgement in manipulating lyrics can cause (seemingly) irreparable
damage to your file. A database that allows itself to be
irretrievably
On 18 Sep 2002 at 8:52, Thomas Schaller wrote:
Well, I've rescued the score, and fixed all the problems.
Glad to hear it.
I guess I was lucky that, for whatever reason, the lyrics for the top
line of my score (the line that was messed) were, largely, the last
thing that I entered. In the EDIT
On 19 Sep 2002 at 16:20, Thomas Schaller wrote:
David W. Fenton wrote:
Anyway, on to my solution:
I took someone's advice to insert and symbols in the lyrics
via TYPE IN SCORE so that I could find them in the EDIT LYRICS
window. What I saw was a jumble of lyrics, with
On 19 Sep 2002 at 17:10, Thomas Schaller wrote:
David W. Fenton wrote:
There is no option of an option. The other option would be text
expressions,
or else to glom on some new kind of lyric that is essentially a text
expression.
When copying a block of music, appending copies of
On 19 Sep 2002 at 15:09, Mark D. Lew wrote [quoting me]
[]
Knowing what I know now, I don't know if I'd try typing in the lyrics
and then click assigning. I understand the logic there, but the CLICK
ASSIGNMENT window has got to be the most user unfriendly window I've
ever seen -- the visual
David W. Fenton wrote:
Am I right in guessing that, when using TYPE IN SCORE, the EDIT
LYRICS window is populated in the order in which you enter the
lyrics, rather than in any logical order related to the score layout?
That is, if the first thing you enter typing into the score is the
David W. Fenton wrote, in part:
The system is designed around an assumption that the default and most
desirable method for lyrics entry is to enter the words used one
time, and then assign them all multiple times.
I'm not sure that that is the default assumption; I'd rather suspect that
At 02:06 PM 9/19/02 -0800, you wrote:
- I assume type-in-score still exists. (And if it doesn't, I'm sure many
will object.) When you use type-in-score to create a lyric, how does Finale
decide where in the text to create the new syllable? Does it add it to the
end of the text, or does it insert
In various posts, David W. Fenton wrote:
Historically speaking, yes. But before I upgraded to WinFin2003, [...]
Oh, so you're in Fin 2003 now. Does that mean it has changed back?? In
MacFin2002, if I use type-in-score to enter lyrics out of order, but within
a single staff and verse, Finale
At 4:44 PM 09/19/02, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
Now, undo will correct the lyric displacement that occurs in steps 6 and
10, but I
submit that since lyric displacement does not happen on type into score,
it should
not happen after edit lyric, either. The results of inserting or deleting
syllables
On 19 Sep 2002 at 17:04, Mark D. Lew wrote:
In various posts, David W. Fenton wrote:
Historically speaking, yes. But before I upgraded to WinFin2003, [...]
Oh, so you're in Fin 2003 now. Does that mean it has changed back?? In
MacFin2002, if I use type-in-score to enter lyrics out of
At 6:06 PM -0400 9/19/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
But you leave out the most important part: Finale makes it extremely
difficult to undo the unintended errors.
THis is a bit of a change of subject, but speaking of unintended
behaviours screwing up one's scores, how about the repeat tool?
I
I wrote, in part:
Now, undo will correct the lyric displacement that occurs in steps 6 and
10, but I
submit that since lyric displacement does not happen on type into score,
it should
not happen after edit lyric, either. The results of inserting or deleting
syllables in both modes
At 5:49 PM 09/19/02, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
Is this plug-in territory? I don't yet know enough about programming to
know for
sure, but it seems logical that a plug in could examine a text block, list
all of
the assignments between a given lyric syllable and various lines, and make
it simple
to
At 6:30 PM 09/19/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
If I were setting Mozart's Requiem, I'd enter the lyrics in their entirety,
repeats and all (using copy-and-paste within the Edit Lyrics window where
appropriate), then click-assign them all at once with option-click and
shift as necessary. . . .
At 9:18 PM 09/19/02, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
I don't enter consecutive hyphens as much anymore either, but they get
generated in
type into score mode when one has [...]
[...] the original separators persist, so that an examination of the
lyrics block shows something on the order of Hal - - -le -
On 17 Sep 2002 at 20:09, Mark D. Lew wrote:
In various posts, David W. Fenton wrote:
This is completely unacceptable behavior -- it is basically
completely unusable in any fashion, by any of the various methods.
What the hell am I going to do here?
I'm coming into this discussion a
On 17 Sep 2002 at 23:18, Robert Patterson wrote:
If I were typesetting the Hallelujah
Chorus, my Edit Lyrics box might well just contain the Hallelujah word
once. (Well, actually probably twice: once at the beginning and once at
the end.)
I know this helps David very little now, but
David W. Fenton wrote:
When I choose EDIT LYRICS, this text is not even there!
It's in there somewhere, probably a duplicate of a syllable you're using
elsewhere. If you really want to find it, use the type in score function to
change it to something ridiculously large and watch to see
On Wed, 18 September 2002, David W. Fenton wrote:
Those are all indications of an ill-thought-out UI and bugs in the
implementation.
David, David. This is Finale we are talking about. Aren't you one of its
long-term users? Ill-thought-out UI and bugs in implementation have historically
On Tuesday, Sep 17, 2002, at 05:42 US/Pacific, David W. Fenton wrote:
Sorry I haven't been following this thread closely, but if there are
messed up lyrics you can export all lyrics to a text file with the
Extract Lyrics plugin and see what's going on. There is a labeling
option which can be
At 9:08 AM -0400 9/18/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 17 Sep 2002 at 19:34, Thomas Schaller wrote:
first of all - about the problem of having screwed up your original lyrics:
I'm afraid that those lyrics are no good anymore - depending on how much you
changed in the copied section you might
At 03:58 PM 9/18/02 -0800, Mark D. Lew wrote:
If it seems like I'm defensive of the system, it's because I'm a little
miffed to see a person who, by his own admission, a week ago had no idea
how lyrics work, and by the evidence of his posts still doesn't really
understand it, nevertheless has the
--Op 16-09-2002 22:30 -0400 schreef David W. Fenton:
So, I copied and pasted a large chunk of music with lyrics from the
beginning of a piece to the end, because the music returns with
different lyrics. But now when I change the lyrics at the end, it
changes them at the beginning too.
I
On 16 Sep 2002 at 23:32, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
David W. Fenton wrote:
So, I copied and pasted a large chunk of music with lyrics from the
beginning of a piece to the end, because the music returns with
different lyrics. But now when I change the lyrics at the end, it
changes them at
Hi,
I've been caught by the same thing in opera scores where there are many parts all singing words that are almost - but not completely - identical.
I've settled on putting all vocal lines as separate 'verses' and copying and pasting them within the lyric editor. I then reapplying them to the
On 17 Sep 2002 at 17:24, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 17 Sep 2002 at 17:38, Raimund Lintzen wrote:
So why don't you copy your music+lyrics into a new (empty) file -
then copy it again back to your first file.
This procedure will make your lyrics be in a new verse.
It also has a lot
On 17 Sep 2002 at 17:44, David W. Fenton wrote:
Having decided that pasting from a different file is too much work, I
decided to try copying without the lyrics.
The result, after many false starts where it didn't work at all, I
see the lyrics being copied *anyway*, even though it is the
In a message dated 9/17/02 4:45:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What the hell am I going to do here?
You can start by calming down. Once you know how this works (or doesn't - for
you) you can plan your approach.
First of all - you can NOT selectively copy different elements BETWEEN
when you copy a portion of music containing lyrics, you do not create a
new copy of the lyrics, you create pointers (aliases) to the original
ones. To achieve what you want to do, specify that you want to copy the
section of music with only specified items, and make sure _NOT_ to copy
David W. Fenton wrote:
What the hell am I going to do here?
Open a blank email message, describe the problem, attach a copy of the file
(and ask support to fix and return it) and send it to Coda as a bug
report
ns
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Finale mailing list
[EMAIL
On 17 Sep 2002 at 18:28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 9/17/02 4:45:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What the hell am I going to do here?
You can start by calming down. Once you know how this works (or doesn't - for
you) you can plan your approach.
The fact is, it
On 9/17/02 7:25 PM or thereabouts, David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
intoned:
But I still don't understand the logic behind mirroring lyrics BY
DEFAULT. Yes, it's an obviously useful OPTION, but as a default
behavior with no acceptable alternative for doing otherwise, it
boggles the mind.
I
Darcy James Argue wrote:
But I still don't understand the logic behind mirroring lyrics BY
DEFAULT. Yes, it's an obviously useful OPTION, but as a default
behavior with no acceptable alternative for doing otherwise, it
boggles the mind.
I gotta agree with David here. I work infrequently
In various posts, David W. Fenton wrote:
This is completely unacceptable behavior -- it is basically
completely unusable in any fashion, by any of the various methods.
What the hell am I going to do here?
I'm coming into this discussion a day late, so probably you've solved
everything by now.
I actually prefer the mirrored lyrics approach, but it requires
forethought and discipline. Generally, unless you are truly writing a
multiverse piece, such as a hymn, you should put all your lyrics in a
single verse. This avoids the baseline headaches that others have mentioned.
Personally,
At 7:25 PM 09/17/02, David W. Fenton wrote:
The fact is, it *doesn't* work. I can only get the right result by
drag copying within the file with lyrics copying turned off.
That's a really bad alternative, but the best of it.
When I want to copy a section of music but without the lyrics, I just
At 11:18 PM 09/17/02, Robert Patterson wrote:
I actually prefer the mirrored lyrics approach, but it requires
forethought and discipline.
I concur on that.
Generally, unless you are truly writing a
multiverse piece, such as a hymn, you should put all your lyrics in a
single verse. This avoids
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