Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Freitag 02 Oktober 2009, Arthur D. wrote: You appear to be demonstrating that you don't fully understand the problem: 828 ~ $ grep nano /usr/portage/app-admin/sudo/sudo-1.7.2_p1.ebuild # XXX: /bin/vi may not be available, make nano visudo's default. --with-editor=/bin/nano \ How so? That config option for sudo sets the DEFAULT editor, what to use if nothing is defined in the config file or environment variable. That's what both my text and the portion of the ebuild that you have quoted state. It in no way forces the use of nano in order to use visudo. If that were the case, DEPENDS would specify nano instead of accepting virtual/editor. Agree. There's no need in making vim as depends. But in other hand in vanilla sudo package there's VI hardcoded by default. And MOST if not ALL users who have VIM installed on their shiny Gentoo systems expect that VIsudo will behave as it did for long tim ago. There are historical (or some other) reasons for making VI default editor for this utility. It's like they don't respect not only endusers favours but the developers' too, no? WHY NOT CHECK if vim binary is in place and ONLY THEN (when it's obviously absent) hardcode the Gentoo Best Award of Choice Editor? I repeat once more. Every user who has VIM installed on theirs systems is forced to do extra configuration, to make sudo work as expected, just because someone prefer other editor and thinks that vanilla choice is bad. Isn't that just stupid? why is it always vim users who get their panties in a knot about nothing? just set EDITOR, you are done. You might be surprised to know, that most people do not have vim installed. But you are forcing others to adhere to something? Things change. Maybe vim users should realize that too
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Am 02.10.2009 07:29, schrieb Arthur D.: I repeat once more. Every user who has VIM installed on theirs systems is forced to do extra configuration, to make sudo work as expected, just because someone prefer other editor and thinks that vanilla choice is bad. Isn't that just stupid? I have VIM installed, set as default editor via EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim in my /root/bashrc. If I run VISUDO as root (I never use sudo so all there is vanilla and so my user can't use sudo visudo) runs it with VIM. I really don't see your problem. All that was needed here on my box was setting VIM as my editor of choice (I preferer to do that per-user so no setting of anything in rc or /etc/env.d) and VISUDO accepted it. No magic involved. Greetings Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 08:06 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: why is it always vim users who get their panties in a knot about nothing? You are likely wrong about this. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people, even people responding to this thread, are vim users. However most of us know how to set an environment variable. What you are witnessing is one person trolling and purporting that it is always vim users. just set EDITOR, you are done. You might be surprised to know, that most people do not have vim installed. But you are forcing others to adhere to something? Things change. Maybe vim users should realize that too I've actually never heard of any veteran Gentoo users who use vim complain about anything. Gentoo is *very* friendly to vim, just look at /usr/portage/app-vim. Maybe I've been completely blind but in the 7 years I've been using Gentoo this is the first time I've heard a vim user get their panties in a knot and this can be easily discounted as trollage. So perhaps your apparent frustration is misdirected?
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
I really don't see your problem. All that was needed here on my box was setting VIM as my editor of choice (I preferer to do that per-user so no setting of anything in rc or /etc/env.d) and VISUDO accepted it. No magic involved. Sebastian, I already fixed the problem for my local host. But I know other users have same problem. That's strange for me that you first login as root to use visudo program. What is the matter of having sudo then? Once again, try running sudo visudo as unprivileged user (that's right, sudo is used to make root stuff without logging with root ;-) ) -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
2009/10/2 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru: You appear to be demonstrating that you don't fully understand the problem: 828 ~ $ grep nano /usr/portage/app-admin/sudo/sudo-1.7.2_p1.ebuild # XXX: /bin/vi may not be available, make nano visudo's default. --with-editor=/bin/nano \ How so? That config option for sudo sets the DEFAULT editor, what to use if nothing is defined in the config file or environment variable. That's what both my text and the portion of the ebuild that you have quoted state. It in no way forces the use of nano in order to use visudo. If that were the case, DEPENDS would specify nano instead of accepting virtual/editor. Agree. There's no need in making vim as depends. But in other hand in vanilla sudo package there's VI hardcoded by default. And MOST if not ALL users who have VIM installed on their shiny Gentoo systems expect that VIsudo will behave as it did for long tim ago. There are historical (or some other) reasons for making VI default editor for this utility. It's like they don't respect not only endusers favours but the developers' too, no? WHY NOT CHECK if vim binary is in place and ONLY THEN (when it's obviously absent) hardcode the Gentoo Best Award of Choice Editor? I repeat once more. Every user who has VIM installed on theirs systems is forced to do extra configuration, to make sudo work as expected, just because someone prefer other editor and thinks that vanilla choice is bad. Isn't that just stupid? -- Best regards, Spinal And everyone who has emacs has to do extra work too, in order to get sudo to respect their chosen editor. Changing the default fallback for visudo when the environment variable isn't defined will add in further dependencies and/or put a dependency on a package that can't be reasonably assumed to be on the system in the near future. You're not being forced to do more work because you use vim, you're doing more work because you remove the sane default editor from the system. As does everyone removing nano and using pico and... how many others? Go to LFS, build it all, build emacs, set EDITOR to emacs, and run sudo visudo. Please. I have a rather good guess that you'll be, amazingly, using the default that was set at build time for the sane default editor, in LFS's case vim (whether called by that or the vi symlink to it), that the distro creators chose. Or if you vary from the instructions, choosing some other editor at sudo's build time, you'll be running that. The ebuild does the logical thing in choosing an editor that a) is in place by default and b) is less likely to be on the system or off the system by the admin's whim. Most leave the default in place. I suppose, really, the only more guaranteed editor would be busybox vi ... because VERY few go about breaking the default tools built into busybox... but what would that leave the many who use nano by default, as... it IS the distro default, to do? Compared to nano, vi (let alone a bare minimal vi like is in busybox) is a pain to use for a person who's never seen it before. Also, randomly, I could be wrong here, not being a sudo user myself outside of my ubuntu laptop... but if you look into sudo ... it drops the environment, aside from those chosen specifically to be preserved by root, through its configuration, as a security measure. It's not an ebuild problem, it's not a 'defaults' problem. From what you seem to see as 'proper' behavior for sudo, it's an upstream security decision problem. -- Poison [BLX] Joshua M. Murphy Yet another vim user.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:30 AM, Joshua Murphy poiso...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/2 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru: You appear to be demonstrating that you don't fully understand the problem: 828 ~ $ grep nano /usr/portage/app-admin/sudo/sudo-1.7.2_p1.ebuild # XXX: /bin/vi may not be available, make nano visudo's default. --with-editor=/bin/nano \ How so? That config option for sudo sets the DEFAULT editor, what to use if nothing is defined in the config file or environment variable. That's what both my text and the portion of the ebuild that you have quoted state. It in no way forces the use of nano in order to use visudo. If that were the case, DEPENDS would specify nano instead of accepting virtual/editor. Agree. There's no need in making vim as depends. But in other hand in vanilla sudo package there's VI hardcoded by default. And MOST if not ALL users who have VIM installed on their shiny Gentoo systems expect that VIsudo will behave as it did for long tim ago. There are historical (or some other) reasons for making VI default editor for this utility. It's like they don't respect not only endusers favours but the developers' too, no? WHY NOT CHECK if vim binary is in place and ONLY THEN (when it's obviously absent) hardcode the Gentoo Best Award of Choice Editor? I repeat once more. Every user who has VIM installed on theirs systems is forced to do extra configuration, to make sudo work as expected, just because someone prefer other editor and thinks that vanilla choice is bad. Isn't that just stupid? -- Best regards, Spinal And everyone who has emacs has to do extra work too, in order to get sudo to respect their chosen editor. Changing the default fallback for visudo when the environment variable isn't defined will add in further dependencies and/or put a dependency on a package that can't be reasonably assumed to be on the system in the near future. You're not being forced to do more work because you use vim, you're doing more work because you remove the sane default editor from the system. As does everyone removing nano and using pico and... how many others? Go to LFS, build it all, build emacs, set EDITOR to emacs, and run sudo visudo. Please. I have a rather good guess that you'll be, amazingly, using the default that was set at build time for the sane default editor, in LFS's case vim (whether called by that or the vi symlink to it), that the distro creators chose. Or if you vary from the instructions, choosing some other editor at sudo's build time, you'll be running that. The ebuild does the logical thing in choosing an editor that a) is in place by default and b) is less likely to be on the system or off the system by the admin's whim. Most leave the default in place. I suppose, really, the only more guaranteed editor would be busybox vi ... because VERY few go about breaking the default tools built into busybox... but what would that leave the many who use nano by default, as... it IS the distro default, to do? Compared to nano, vi (let alone a bare minimal vi like is in busybox) is a pain to use for a person who's never seen it before. Also, randomly, I could be wrong here, not being a sudo user myself outside of my ubuntu laptop... but if you look into sudo ... it drops the environment, aside from those chosen specifically to be preserved by root, through its configuration, as a security measure. It's not an ebuild problem, it's not a 'defaults' problem. From what you seem to see as 'proper' behavior for sudo, it's an upstream security decision problem. -- Poison [BLX] Joshua M. Murphy Yet another vim user. Oh! and 2 more things. 1) In answer to the subject-posed question (in case it wasn't clear in my post just above)... yes. 2) And... your problem shouldn't be with the default set in the ebuild, but rather, the lack of a sed line in the ebuild to adjust sudo's initial configuration to retain, at the least, the EDITOR environment variable. That would, were the answer to your subject-posed question anything other than an unequivocal yes, be the most universal resolution to the problem that you seem to think exists in the setup as it is now. No ebuild should depend on an environment variable like EDITOR at build time if they can, even remotely, avoid it. That would require a rebuild every time the environment variable changed and... that would be rather jarring to say the least. -- Poison [BLX] Joshua M. Murphy
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Go to LFS, build it all, build emacs, set EDITOR to emacs, and run sudo visudo. Please. I have a rather good guess that you'll be, amazingly, using the default that was set at build time for the sane default editor, in LFS's case vim (whether called by that or the vi symlink to it), that the distro creators chose. That's right. But there are some reasons why visudo called so (do you see that short VI?), so the user should expect it to run using vim if it's present on system and the sudo is configured by default. That was put-up by sudo creator in vanilla package, though it's configured in compile time. OK. That default behaviour was changed. Without any notification, except bash comment, in sudo ebuild. Do you consider that to be right? -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
2009/10/2 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru: Go to LFS, build it all, build emacs, set EDITOR to emacs, and run sudo visudo. Please. I have a rather good guess that you'll be, amazingly, using the default that was set at build time for the sane default editor, in LFS's case vim (whether called by that or the vi symlink to it), that the distro creators chose. That's right. But there are some reasons why visudo called so (do you see that short VI?), so the user should expect it to run using vim if it's present on system and the sudo is configured by default. That was put-up by sudo creator in vanilla package, though it's configured in compile time. OK. That default behaviour was changed. Without any notification, except bash comment, in sudo ebuild. Do you consider that to be right? -- Best regards, Spinal Since the upstream default and the, clearly stated multiple places (and equally clearly stated chances of it changing in the near future), distro default differ, yes. It shouldn't be strange that a package, when it's out of options (and given the stripping of environment done by sudo itself, it very much is in the given circumstances), uses the distro-defined defaults. I repeat myself from before... every Gentoo system has vi, there just isn't a direct symlink with that name to busybox. And.. it's called so because it uses a visual editor, which is all vi in vi/vim means and I'd presume is all it really means in visudo's name. That the package upstream uses vi by default goes back to the days when the two base options were vi and emacs... and let's face it, visudo is far easier to type than emacssudo. Nano is a visual editor, emacs, joe, pico.. all of those are too. Interestingly, it *could* use a line, rather than visual, editor, if that were set as the default... but I get the feeling nearly everyone here would be wholly lost using ed (a perfectly valid and capable editor, incidentally). As a counter argument to it defaulting to using vi if vi/vim is installed ... if I run a server with 50 users, 48 of which use emacs, one of which uses vim, and I choose to use pico, why should I be forced to use vi for it by default just because I have vim to satisfy someone else's desires? -- Poison [BLX] Joshua M. Murphy
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?.. UPDATE
if I run a server with 50 users, 48 of which use emacs, one of which uses vim, and I choose to use pico, why should I be forced to use vi for it by default just because I have vim to satisfy someone else's desires? That's really funny, Joshua. Do you provide 50 users of your company with access to visudo? LOL For thouse who are interested in the ticket particulars, you may review it's copy here: http://www.rootshell.be/~spinal/gentoo_bug_report/286017.html I remind you, that an admin restricted the access to that ticket after users started to vote for it. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Joshua Murphy poiso...@gmail.com писал(а) в своём письме Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:58:33 +0300: every Gentoo system has vi, there just isn't a direct symlink with that name to busybox. Wow, that's a really great problem. $ ln `which busybox` vi $ ./vi -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 08:29:30 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: I repeat once more. Every user who has VIM installed on theirs systems is forced to do extra configuration, to make sudo work as expected, just because someone prefer other editor and thinks that vanilla choice is bad. Isn't that just stupid? In your world, every user who does not have vim installed has to do extra work, but I guess non-vim users don't count. You are not trying to fix your problem, you are only taking the NIMBY approach. -- Neil Bothwick Everything's back to normal. Damn. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:34:25 -0500, forgottenwizard wrote: So instead it should set a non-existant editor to the configured default? Nano is not non-existent by default. Another variable in make.conf may be a reasonable fix for this though I'm sure someone will bitch about having to set $EDITOR twice on their system. A more sensible approach would be for the ebuild to check which ebuild satisfies the virtual/editor dependency and set that. If the OP really cared about this problem he'd investigate providing such solutions instead of ranting about how Gentoo does not use his editor of choice by default. -- Neil Bothwick .sig a .sog of sixpence. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:44:26 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: That's right. But there are some reasons why visudo called so (do you see that short VI?), What are those reasons? Do they apply to Gentoo? Is it possible that this is simply because the original coder used vi? Or perhaps to maintain the naming convention or vipw etc? Neither of those are reasons to force installation on a non-standard editor. -- Neil Bothwick Try to be the best of whatever you are, even if what you are is no good. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?.. UPDATE
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:17:26 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: I remind you, that an admin restricted the access to that ticket after users started to vote for it. Unless the reason for restriction was stated, your implication of causality is invalid. -- Neil Bothwick Plagarism prohibited. Derive carefully. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
A more sensible approach would be for the ebuild to check which ebuild satisfies the virtual/editor dependency and set that. Not clever. What if there are several editors installed? And, yes, I prefer VIM. And I don't like when the package which vanilla defaults were always to be using vim as editor is overwritten without any notifications and causing the enduser to investigate how to fix that. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:15:09 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: A more sensible approach would be for the ebuild to check which ebuild satisfies the virtual/editor dependency and set that. Not clever. What if there are several editors installed? Choose the most appropriate from a defined list. And, yes, I prefer VIM. And I don't like when the package which vanilla defaults were always to be using vim as editor is overwritten without any notifications and causing the enduser to investigate how to fix that. Would you have the same argument if the vanilla default was emacs and the ebuild changed it to vim? All you're complaining about is that a distro that expects users to configure everything for themselves is expecting you to add one line to a config file. This problem could also be fixed by USE flags. Instead of whining why not submit a patch that has the ebuild respect the vanilla USE flag? -- Neil Bothwick Everybody needs a little love sometime; stop hacking and fall in love! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk писал(а) в своём письме Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:23:38 +0300: This problem could also be fixed by USE flags. Instead of whining why not submit a patch that has the ebuild respect the vanilla USE flag? Thanks for the idea. I will try this. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 09:07:20AM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:34:25 -0500, forgottenwizard wrote: So instead it should set a non-existant editor to the configured default? Nano is not non-existent by default. It isn't always on the users sytem. Providing a non-existent default seems quite broken to me. Another variable in make.conf may be a reasonable fix for this though I'm sure someone will bitch about having to set $EDITOR twice on their system. A more sensible approach would be for the ebuild to check which ebuild satisfies the virtual/editor dependency and set that. If the OP really cared about this problem he'd investigate providing such solutions instead of ranting about how Gentoo does not use his editor of choice by default. -- Neil Bothwick .sig a .sog of sixpence. The problem there would be if multiple editors provide virtual/editor (such as on my system, which has both vim and ed installed). The ebuild trying to automagically select what should be the default editor is a bad idea, if not just horrible.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Am 02.10.2009 08:25, schrieb Arthur D.: I really don't see your problem. All that was needed here on my box was setting VIM as my editor of choice (I preferer to do that per-user so no setting of anything in rc or /etc/env.d) and VISUDO accepted it. No magic involved. Sebastian, I already fixed the problem for my local host. But I know other users have same problem. That's strange for me that you first login as root to use visudo program. What is the matter of having sudo then? Maybe you should READ what people write BEFORE you answer. I have written that I started it from root because I never before used sudo on my system so that my non-root-user can't use sudo visudo. Once again, try running sudo visudo as unprivileged user (that's right, sudo is used to make root stuff without logging with root ;-) ) Ok, I comment out %wheel ALL=(ALL) ALL so that my user could use sudo visudo. Hey.. Great.. It started visudo with VIM. So again.. What are you complaining about?? Greetings Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Once again, try running sudo visudo as unprivileged user (that's right, sudo is used to make root stuff without logging with root ;-) ) Ok, I comment out %wheel ALL=(ALL) ALL so that my user could use sudo visudo. Hey.. Great.. It started visudo with VIM. So again.. What are you complaining about?? Sebastian, I repeat especially for you once more: http://www.rootshell.be/~spinal/gentoo_bug_report/286017.html Just check what you did wrong. P.S. BTW, I send the patch for sudo to respect vanilla USE flag. The description you will find on link above.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 09:23:38AM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:15:09 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: And, yes, I prefer VIM. And I don't like when the package which vanilla defaults were always to be using vim as editor is overwritten without any notifications and causing the enduser to investigate how to fix that. Would you have the same argument if the vanilla default was emacs and the ebuild changed it to vim? All you're complaining about is that a distro that expects users to configure everything for themselves is expecting you to add one line to a config file. This problem could also be fixed by USE flags. Instead of whining why not submit a patch that has the ebuild respect the vanilla USE flag? USE flags is nice, except ls /usr/portage/app-editors/ | wc -l returns 76 packages (give or take a file or two). So we are looking at, uh, ~75 USE flags for the sudo ebuild, no counting the editors which aren't in app-editor (like ed, which resides in sys-apps instead of app-editor). The number of USE flags would be quite impressive for such a small package.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Am 02.10.2009 10:52, schrieb forgottenwizard: On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 09:07:20AM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:34:25 -0500, forgottenwizard wrote: So instead it should set a non-existant editor to the configured default? Nano is not non-existent by default. It isn't always on the users sytem. Providing a non-existent default seems quite broken to me. By DEFAULT it is on EVERY Gentoo-system. If you CHOOSE to remove the default then you have to be prepared that something may be broken after that. You could never be certain that anything set as default is existent on the system. Even if a distro would remove the possibility to uninstall the default with the help of the package manager so is there always rm So every default could be a non-existent default. Greetings Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Arthur D. wrote: Once again, try running sudo visudo as unprivileged user (that's right, sudo is used to make root stuff without logging with root ;-) ) Ok, I comment out %wheel ALL=(ALL) ALL so that my user could use sudo visudo. Hey.. Great.. It started visudo with VIM. So again.. What are you complaining about?? Sebastian, I repeat especially for you once more: http://www.rootshell.be/~spinal/gentoo_bug_report/286017.html Just check what you did wrong. P.S. BTW, I send the patch for sudo to respect vanilla USE flag. The description you will find on link above. The link to the patch doesn't work. It did give a nice 404 error tho. ;-) Got to love those. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 11:08:08AM +0200, Sebastian Be?ler wrote: Am 02.10.2009 10:52, schrieb forgottenwizard: It isn't always on the users sytem. Providing a non-existent default seems quite broken to me. By DEFAULT it is on EVERY Gentoo-system. If you CHOOSE to remove the default then you have to be prepared that something may be broken after that. You could never be certain that anything set as default is existent on the system. Even if a distro would remove the possibility to uninstall the default with the help of the package manager so is there always rm So every default could be a non-existent default. So then I should keep everything installed on my system just in case it might break a package in the future? There have been ways mentioned that this can be solved. If nothing else there should be a warning (and possibly a dependency) that nano IS the default editor for sudo, whether you like it or not.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Am 02.10.2009 11:04, schrieb forgottenwizard: The number of USE flags would be quite impressive for such a small package. a vanilla-flag could be possible that disables every changes to the upstream-package. It even exists atm for a number of packages metat...@darkstation ~ $ euse -i vanilla global use flags (searching: vanilla) [-] vanilla - Do not add extra patches which change default behaviour; DO NOT USE THIS ON A GLOBAL SCALE as the severity of the meaning changes drastically Greetings Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 04:04:30 -0500, forgottenwizard wrote: This problem could also be fixed by USE flags. Instead of whining why not submit a patch that has the ebuild respect the vanilla USE flag? USE flags is nice, except ls /usr/portage/app-editors/ | wc -l returns 76 packages (give or take a file or two). So we are looking at, uh, ~75 USE flags for the sudo ebuild, no counting the editors which aren't in app-editor (like ed, which resides in sys-apps instead of app-editor). It helps if you read what you are replying to. I suggested the use of one, existing, USE flag, to address this trivial issue. -- Neil Bothwick Electricians DO IT until it Hz... signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 03:52:24 -0500, forgottenwizard wrote: Nano is not non-existent by default. It isn't always on the users sytem. Providing a non-existent default seems quite broken to me. That's true of every editor, so you have to choose the one that is most likely to be there, the one that is installed for the stage tarballs and is there unless the user has taken specific steps to remove it. A more sensible approach would be for the ebuild to check which ebuild satisfies the virtual/editor dependency and set that. If the OP really cared about this problem he'd investigate providing such solutions instead of ranting about how Gentoo does not use his editor of choice by default. The problem there would be if multiple editors provide virtual/editor (such as on my system, which has both vim and ed installed). The ebuild trying to automagically select what should be the default editor is a bad idea, if not just horrible. You can't have it both ways. You want the program to default to an editor that is guaranteed to be there, at least at installation time, yet the only one that satisfies that is virtual/editor. It's only a default, it only has to be available the first time you run the program, whether it's your favourite editor or not. If you only want to use default configurations without making any changes to suit yourself, I suggest you may be better served by a distro that is a little browner. -- Neil Bothwick Gravity isn't easy, but it's the law. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 11:21:08AM +0200, Sebastian Be?ler wrote: Am 02.10.2009 11:04, schrieb forgottenwizard: The number of USE flags would be quite impressive for such a small package. a vanilla-flag could be possible that disables every changes to the upstream-package. It even exists atm for a number of packages metat...@darkstation ~ $ euse -i vanilla global use flags (searching: vanilla) [-] vanilla - Do not add extra patches which change default behaviour; DO NOT USE THIS ON A GLOBAL SCALE as the severity of the meaning changes drastically Greetings Sebastian insert emacs user whining Thats an option, but seems to be a poor one. All that will do is let you use either vi(m) or nano for the default, which for emacs users will be no diffrent than the current problem.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 10:29:08AM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 03:52:24 -0500, forgottenwizard wrote: Nano is not non-existent by default. It isn't always on the users sytem. Providing a non-existent default seems quite broken to me. That's true of every editor, so you have to choose the one that is most likely to be there, the one that is installed for the stage tarballs and is there unless the user has taken specific steps to remove it. Or you could try to find a suitable default intelligently instead of blindly compiling in a default that may or may not exist. Worse still is blindly doing so without telling the user. A more sensible approach would be for the ebuild to check which ebuild satisfies the virtual/editor dependency and set that. If the OP really cared about this problem he'd investigate providing such solutions instead of ranting about how Gentoo does not use his editor of choice by default. The problem there would be if multiple editors provide virtual/editor (such as on my system, which has both vim and ed installed). The ebuild trying to automagically select what should be the default editor is a bad idea, if not just horrible. You can't have it both ways. You want the program to default to an editor that is guaranteed to be there, at least at installation time, yet the only one that satisfies that is virtual/editor. It's only a default, it only has to be available the first time you run the program, whether it's your favourite editor or not. If you only want to use default configurations without making any changes to suit yourself, I suggest you may be better served by a distro that is a little browner. And if you, say, have two editors installed that satisfy virtual/editor?
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Am 02.10.2009 11:29, schrieb forgottenwizard: insert emacs user whining Thats an option, but seems to be a poor one. All that will do is let you use either vi(m) or nano for the default, which for emacs users will be no diffrent than the current problem. joke If you use emacs then you are to far away to be helped ;-) /joke Then maybe a custom_editor-flag that inserts Defaultsenv_keep += EDITOR VISUAL PAGER to /etc/sudoers With that even emacs users would be satisfied. Greetings Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Am 02.10.2009 11:40, schrieb Sebastian Beßler: Am 02.10.2009 11:29, schrieb forgottenwizard: insert emacs user whining Thats an option, but seems to be a poor one. All that will do is let you use either vi(m) or nano for the default, which for emacs users will be no diffrent than the current problem. joke If you use emacs then you are to far away to be helped ;-) /joke Then maybe a custom_editor-flag that inserts Defaultsenv_keep += EDITOR VISUAL PAGER to /etc/sudoers With that even emacs users would be satisfied. After thinking about that.. To use such a flag the admin has to know what it does and then he can also add Defaultsenv_keep += EDITOR VISUAL PAGER to /etc/sudoers instead of adding app-editors/vim custom-editor to /etc/portage/package.use So there is no need for such a use-flag because it don't saves any work. Adding a line is adding a line. Greetings Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Freitag 02 Oktober 2009, forgottenwizard wrote: On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 10:29:08AM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 03:52:24 -0500, forgottenwizard wrote: Nano is not non-existent by default. It isn't always on the users sytem. Providing a non-existent default seems quite broken to me. That's true of every editor, so you have to choose the one that is most likely to be there, the one that is installed for the stage tarballs and is there unless the user has taken specific steps to remove it. Or you could try to find a suitable default intelligently instead of blindly compiling in a default that may or may not exist. Worse still is blindly doing so without telling the user. A more sensible approach would be for the ebuild to check which ebuild satisfies the virtual/editor dependency and set that. If the OP really cared about this problem he'd investigate providing such solutions instead of ranting about how Gentoo does not use his editor of choice by default. The problem there would be if multiple editors provide virtual/editor (such as on my system, which has both vim and ed installed). The ebuild trying to automagically select what should be the default editor is a bad idea, if not just horrible. You can't have it both ways. You want the program to default to an editor that is guaranteed to be there, at least at installation time, yet the only one that satisfies that is virtual/editor. It's only a default, it only has to be available the first time you run the program, whether it's your favourite editor or not. If you only want to use default configurations without making any changes to suit yourself, I suggest you may be better served by a distro that is a little browner. And if you, say, have two editors installed that satisfy virtual/editor? then the more sensible one should be used by default. Lets see: nano, built in help, easy to use, small, good enough for most edits. vim, whatthefuckisthatcrap? how do I quit this monstrum? what happened now? MODES? nano wins, hands down. Because every idiot can use it long enough to edit the files needed to make vim default.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?.. UPDATE
OK. Now the latest update. 1) Here's a copy (just a copy, all links are useless) of bug report done by me. I was forced to copy that page to hosting because package maintainer restricted access to users who began to vote for this bug. +-==+ | http://www.rootshell.be/~spinal/gentoo_bug_report/286017.html | +===+ 2) Here's a link for the patch, that I attached to the patch in my last post: +===+ | http://www.rootshell.be/~spinal/gentoo_bug_report/sudo-resp-vanilla.patch | +===+ 3) And now the most interesting. I was banned by maintainer. Now I cannot access the ticket too. == Access Denied You are not authorized to access bug #286017. Please press Back and try again. == I think the maintainer was not aware about the bug report was copied to the hosting and about my posts in mail-list. Any ideas?.. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 11:40:33AM +0200, Sebastian Be?ler wrote: Am 02.10.2009 11:29, schrieb forgottenwizard: insert emacs user whining Thats an option, but seems to be a poor one. All that will do is let you use either vi(m) or nano for the default, which for emacs users will be no diffrent than the current problem. joke If you use emacs then you are to far away to be helped ;-) /joke At least 8 megs of RAM isn't a problem anymore. Then maybe a custom_editor-flag that inserts Defaultsenv_keep += EDITOR VISUAL PAGER to /etc/sudoers With that even emacs users would be satisfied. Greetings Sebastian Didn't the maintainer/dev that was dealing with the bug say that he wouldn't do that because it was insecure? That also doesn't fix the problem that sudo thinks that nano is a safe fallback. How about a custom_editor flag, as you suggested, then an EDITOR variable in make.conf? Thats the only way I could see being able to solve this problem without invariably screwing someone. This would provide a fairly sane default while giving the user the choice to use something else.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 04:36:47 -0500, forgottenwizard wrote: It isn't always on the users sytem. Providing a non-existent default seems quite broken to me. That's true of every editor, so you have to choose the one that is most likely to be there, the one that is installed for the stage tarballs and is there unless the user has taken specific steps to remove it. Or you could try to find a suitable default intelligently instead of blindly compiling in a default that may or may not exist. Worse still is blindly doing so without telling the user. The user is told. the handbook clearly explains how and why to set EDITOR. nano is only used when EDITOR cannot be found, in other words its a suitable default for a broken system. And if you, say, have two editors installed that satisfy virtual/editor? How is this a problem? As long as a working editor is available to edit sudoers, nothing else is important, because once you are editing sudoers you can change the default in there. I fail to see why this is an issue in the first place, if you can set and environment variable or add a single line to a config file, you really should reconsider your choice of distro. At least I've learned one thing from this thread, I didn't even know that visduo had a built-in default choice of editor, mainly because it's always used the one I wanted it to. -- Neil Bothwick Deja Foobar: A feeling of having made the same mistake before. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
This thread is really out of control, I doubt anything useful can be born here, we are just running circles around a chair. On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 04:54:42 -0500, forgottenwizard phrexianrea...@hushmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 11:40:33AM +0200, Sebastian Be?ler wrote: Am 02.10.2009 11:29, schrieb forgottenwizard: Then maybe a custom_editor-flag that inserts Defaultsenv_keep += EDITOR VISUAL PAGER to /etc/sudoers With that even emacs users would be satisfied. Greetings Sebastian Didn't the maintainer/dev that was dealing with the bug say that he wouldn't do that because it was insecure? That also doesn't fix the problem that sudo thinks that nano is a safe fallback. The problem is not in the editor, that's just one of the thousand assumptions people make here that are incorrect. The developers were rather pointing at the use of keep_env in the sudoers file, which is indeed risky, and the usage of external variables in the ebuild, which is also not only insecure, but very bad from every single viewpoint that I can think of. And anyway, it's true that vimOS and emacOS are not the sanest and more secure editors for config file, since they can do everything, and a bad user config for any of these (specially emacs I gues) can put your system at risk easier than nano could ever, because nano simply has not the needed capabilities to act as a nuclear bomb. But as said, that wasn't the point of the developers. How about a custom_editor flag, as you suggested, then an EDITOR variable in make.conf? Thats the only way I could see being able to solve this problem without invariably screwing someone. This would provide a fairly sane default while giving the user the choice to use something else. That would be the only way that it would make sense to me. Just like we have VIDEO_CARDS, some GENTOO_EDITOR variable would be nice for this. But ebuilds and eclasses would need to be aware of this to push the correct dependencies. It's not that trivial to addapt portage to a new portage variable. The USE flag idea is non-viable and doesn't make sense. It really isn't a big deal to configure yourself anyways. So unless some developer is interested in this, I doubt they are going to do the job unless some pristine and already working patch is sent to them, and someone is willing to work on a collaborative way, and not just throwing the-editor-I-preffer blindingly in the sudo ebuild. -- Jesús Guerrero
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:09:23 +0200, Jesús Guerrero wrote: The USE flag idea is non-viable and doesn't make sense. Why not? The flag already exists for the very purpose the OP raised. -- Neil Bothwick PC DOS Error #01: Windows loading, come back tomorrow signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:12:36 +0300, Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru wrote: James Ausmus james.aus...@gmail.com писал(а) в своём письме Thu, 01 Oct 2009 22:04:38 +0300: VI. Maybe it's called VIsudo because VIM is better alternative for VANILLA, hah? Maybe we should stick to the old devfs stuff instead of udev, because the names matches. Maybe we should use fam as our file alteration monitor instead of the newest gaim, because the names matches. Maybe we should continue using xfree86 because a lot of tools are still named the xf* way. Let's assume it: each distro has its defaults and times change. The origin of the name of visudo is at best an extremely poor argument. I think it's most reasonably to omit that hardcoding line from ebuild. I'm sure visudo will notice the user about what should be done to make it work as expected and that's better behaviour than complaining about missing /bin/nano, don't u think so? No, Gentoo assumes nano as a safe default. If you are ripping something that's part of the base installation (in fact, it's part of the system package set) then you should be prepared to handle it yourself. There's a default editor just like there's a default syslogger, a default cron daemon and a default package manager. Maybe we should also start debating about there. Maybe, and following your logic, it would be better to set as default something that might not even be installed because the first two letter of vim and visudo are the same. If you truly want to find a solution, you will have to dig much deeper than that, and not just put your preferred editor instead of the one that comes in the gentoo stage files in the ebuild, because that's simply not acceptable. Oh, and your ebuild patch doesn't even bother to check the vim dependency. Oh, and to set a default is not the same than hardcoding. They are very different concepts. All the programs have defaults on their config files. Assume it, your vim zealotry is getting in the middle. Try to look at it from a distant perspective. Then let the ideas rest a couple of days and come back if you have a proper suggestion other than set my beloved vim as default. -- Jesús Guerrero
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: then the more sensible one should be used by default. Lets see: nano, built in help, easy to use, small, good enough for most edits. vim, whatthefuckisthatcrap? how do I quit this monstrum? what happened now? MODES? nano wins, hands down. Because every idiot can use it long enough to edit the files needed to make vim default. I agree with this. Even *I* can use nano. That says a lot right there. That is also pretty much what I said, same meaning anyway, when I first saw vi. It took me a bit to get out of that thing too. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Oh, and your ebuild patch doesn't even bother to check the vim dependency. The vanilla USE flag is not global, it's local, man. And it doesn't force user to install vim. You may want to make symlink /usr/bin/vi - /bin/busybox instead. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:21:53 +0100, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:09:23 +0200, Jesús Guerrero wrote: The USE flag idea is non-viable and doesn't make sense. Why not? The flag already exists for the very purpose the OP raised. Oh, you meant vanilla, sorry, I was talking about the other idea that I read on I don't know which mail before about USE flags to set different editors, which is not viable at all. I'd have nothing against the vanilla flag, but surely everyone will want a flag for their preferred editor. Using a var in make.conf is absolutely better in my opinion, but as said, this is non-trivial. Portage would need to adjust the dependencies, it's not as easy as to throw a random string into the ebuild. -- Jesús Guerrero
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:35:47 +0300, Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru wrote: Oh, and your ebuild patch doesn't even bother to check the vim dependency. The vanilla USE flag is not global, it's local, man. That's irrelevant. Each ebuild should sort its dependencies. The scope of the use flags is irrelevant. And it doesn't force user to install vim. You may want to make symlink /usr/bin/vi - /bin/busybox instead. Right, you were complaining because it didn't work out of the box, but now you don't care about that? I fail to understand that reasoning. Oh, yes, I understand it: it doesn't matter because *you* have vim installed so it won't bother you. I'd like to see why for you it's acceptable to symlink a file manually but it's not acceptable to configure sudo... I also wonder what's the difference between sudo complaining that it can be find nano and sudo complaining that it can't find vim. So, if it can't find vim, we should go fix that ourselves and that is acceptable, but if it can't find nano then that's unacceptable for you, did I get it right? -- Jesús Guerrero
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
So, if it can't find vim, we should go fix that ourselves and that is acceptable, but if it can't find nano then that's unacceptable for you, did I get it right? Did you visit http://www.rootshell.be/~spinal/gentoo_bug_report/286017.html ? I was forced to offer the maintainer to respect at least vanilla sudo behaviour. You don't like something? Go ahead create a ticket and speak with Diego. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:57:44 +0300, Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru wrote: So, if it can't find vim, we should go fix that ourselves and that is acceptable, but if it can't find nano then that's unacceptable for you, did I get it right? Did you visit http://www.rootshell.be/~spinal/gentoo_bug_report/286017.html ? Obviously I did. Otherwise I couldn't have commented on your patch for the ebuild. I also posted in that bug in case you missed it. I was forced to offer the maintainer to respect at least vanilla sudo behaviour. You don't like something? Go ahead create a ticket and speak with Diego. I don't have to open any bug this time, I am not the one that's not happy with sudo. ;) -- Jesús Guerrero
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 12:09:23PM +0200, Jes??s Guerrero wrote: On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 04:54:42 -0500, forgottenwizard phrexianrea...@hushmail.com wrote: How about a custom_editor flag, as you suggested, then an EDITOR variable in make.conf? Thats the only way I could see being able to solve this problem without invariably screwing someone. This would provide a fairly sane default while giving the user the choice to use something else. That would be the only way that it would make sense to me. Just like we have VIDEO_CARDS, some GENTOO_EDITOR variable would be nice for this. But ebuilds and eclasses would need to be aware of this to push the correct dependencies. It's not that trivial to addapt portage to a new portage variable. The USE flag idea is non-viable and doesn't make sense. It really isn't a big deal to configure yourself anyways. So unless some developer is interested in this, I doubt they are going to do the job unless some pristine and already working patch is sent to them, and someone is willing to work on a collaborative way, and not just throwing the-editor-I-preffer blindingly in the sudo ebuild. -- Jes??s Guerrero Set an EDITOR var in make.conf, then set a USE-flag for sudo to honor this setting. If you set EDITOR to a valid atom (app-admin/vim, for example), then you may be able to use that as a direct dependency, or have the ebuild spit out a warning that $EDITOR isn't installed if that is the case. I'm not suggesting a USE-flag for everything, but more as a simple switch that tells the ebuild to use the users settings instead of the distro default.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 10/2/2009 1:29 AM, Arthur D. wrote: Agree. There's no need in making vim as depends. But in other hand in vanilla sudo package there's VI hardcoded by default. And MOST if not ALL users who have VIM So basically, you're entire silly argument boils down to I don't like nano, make it go away. And yes, I also don't like nano, don't have it installed, and use vim for everything. Shockingly enough, visudo works *exactly the way I want*. So lets not go lumping most if not all users who have vim into your little rant. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say most, if not all, users who managed to get vim installed and nano removed are more than capable of configuring sudo appropriately. --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?.. UPDATE
On Friday 02 October 2009 10:53:37 Arthur D. wrote: =+ 3) And now the most interesting. I was banned by maintainer. Now I cannot access the ticket too. Strange, uh?
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
2009/10/2 Mike Edenfield kut...@kutulu.org: On 10/2/2009 1:29 AM, Arthur D. wrote: Agree. There's no need in making vim as depends. But in other hand in vanilla sudo package there's VI hardcoded by default. And MOST if not ALL users who have VIM So basically, you're entire silly argument boils down to I don't like nano, make it go away. And yes, I also don't like nano, don't have it installed, and use vim for everything. Shockingly enough, visudo works *exactly the way I want*. So lets not go lumping most if not all users who have vim into your little rant. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say most, if not all, users who managed to get vim installed and nano removed are more than capable of configuring sudo appropriately. Exactly. Let's stop the flame (yeah, its all flame as this is HIS problem, and we'll never change his mind). SIMPLE: Stage3 is the default way to install Gentoo. Nano is in stage3. Nano supplies EDITOR. Sudo needs EDITOR. Hardcode what we are SURE to have (nano). Change de default if you don't like it (EDITOR variable or sudoers file, or whatever of the dozen choices you have). -- Daniel da Veiga
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
This is an interesting thread to analyze, even though 90.9% of it is basically BS and flaming. I actually can side a little bit with the OP. But as a user of Gentoo, vi and sudo. If it were all up to me, I'd have visudo look at EDITOR and fail if it doesn't exist. But this is likely not the aim of upstream. The name *vi*sudo implies a partiality to vi. However Gentoo uses nano as the default editor, and so I can understand why the maintainer may feel that changing the default to nano in the ebuild makes sense. If you drop Gentoo on a box and install sudo then by default nano will be there and vi won't. So I'm not going to argue with that. Still vi is a safe default. I remember when I first started using Gentoo and was surprised that the default editor was nano. I'm was like huh? It's a distribution where you have to choose your own system logger and compile your own kernel, but when it comes to the text editor they decide to hold your hand with nano? Still, I remember a while back a friend of mine got a new job where she had to use Unix/Linux for the first time. She asked me what editor she should learn to use. I told her she should learn vi first because it's guaranteed to be on all Unix/Linux systems. Then I had to hold down my head in shame and say except Gentoo. Nevertheless, that was someone's choice, probably long ago, and it's easy to fix. Life is short so we have to choose our battles. I actually have an ebuild in my overlay that goes on all my systems. Among other things, it blocks nano, installs vim and sets the appropriate EDITOR variable. I'm quite happy with this solution because it's is the Gentoo Way of doing things. That's all analysis. But this thread isn't about analysis really. It's about being heard and the louder you are and the more you blow things out of proportion then the more chance you have of being heard. Children learn this at an early age. When I was a child I also learned that many times it's more important how you ask for something than what you are actually asking for. Some parents spoil their children and give them everything they want, and so as adults they lose this valuable life lesson. So while the OP may or may not have had an idea that was legitimate or at least interesting, it will forever be overshadowed by his attitude and lack of respect. Perhaps the intention never was to bring about any useful change but as a way of saying I'm here! Can you hear me? We heard you. Now let's move on. -a
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
2009/10/2 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru: Joshua Murphy poiso...@gmail.com писал(а) в своём письме Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:58:33 +0300: every Gentoo system has vi, there just isn't a direct symlink with that name to busybox. Wow, that's a really great problem. $ ln `which busybox` vi $ ./vi -- Best regards, Spinal Yeah... imagine that. A simple change to fix things to work as I want when I deviate from the distro default. Interestingly, I already do that, and into /bin/, on every lightweight system I build for myself (more full fledged builds have vim, and none of my builds keep nano around). Really, that seems just as simple to me as adjusting the config file for sudo when deviating from the distro-offered default. Simple solutions are an amazing thing, at least, when they're not blown away as unacceptable because the world doesn't revolve around every single person who think's they're at Burger King (oddly enough, in my experience, you don't actually get your way their either). I would apologize for my rather sarcastic mannerisms in my comments here and there in the thread, but when the initial post is so terribly combative, I just can't help myself. -- Poison [BLX] Joshua M. Murphy
[gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Hello, happy Gentoo users! I'm new on this distro, so I'm sorry if you consider to be stupid what I gonna say. Many of us prefer editors other than nano. Some of us believe in ideas of freedom and choice which Gentoo provides us with. But... There're ones who prefer primitive hardcoding over giving the enduser to choose. There're defaults set by someone, that you should respect. Because... Just because he wants so. Because you are nothing. Just another ungrateful user... An example? The package SUDO. It is one of the most mandatory packages in distro. But it totally ignores the enduser's favor in editing. It just hardcodes what the ebuild's maintainer decided. Once and forever. Do you want to remove nano from your system? DON'T DO THAT! Or you gonna get some issues, you shouldn't get, if the things work as expected. I just installed VIM with emerge, and removed nano because I considered it to be absolutely unnecessary in my system. Why I need nano? I am a VIM fan. And here the troubles begin... Run sudo visudo and you get this: ~ $ sudo visudo visudo: no editor found (editor path = /bin/nano) ~ $ env | grep -i edit EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim What a surprise! Hm... Possibly I did something wrong when setting my system, that terminates me with this error?.. So I was forced to spend my time analysing what is wrong with the package and how to fix that. Because I remember it was working as expected in my previous LFS (linuxfromscratch) system. My quests leaded me to the ebuild of sudo. And I saw this nice shiny line there: --with-editor=/bin/nano Stop. I don't use nano. I even don't have it! But the ebuild doesn't check if nano is installed. No care. It was just like said to me: Hey, you are just a stupid moron! Who removes default editor? He-he... I asked the ebuild maintainer to fix this behaviour. And what did he say? You should read manual page of sudo in order to make it work as expected. To make it respect your preferences. And I don't care what editor you prefer. Nano is Gentoo default editor!!! You understand? Stop boring me! I will not change anything! Ha-ha... Actually it was said in other words but the idea is same. Looks like the principle it just works is not for Gentoo users. If you don't agree with ignoring of your preferences, please vote for this bug: http://bugs.gentoo.org/votes.cgi?action=show_userbug_id=286017#vote_286017 P.S. Having defaults is not bad. But they should not override our favourites. Thank you. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 10/1/2009 10:44 AM, Arthur D. wrote: I just installed VIM with emerge, and removed nano because I considered it to be absolutely unnecessary in my system. Why I need nano? I am a VIM fan. And here the troubles begin... Run sudo visudo and you get this: ~ $ sudo visudo visudo: no editor found (editor path = /bin/nano) ~ $ env | grep -i edit EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim You have two options: 1. Tell sudo to preserve the EDITOR variable in /etc/sudoers: Defaultsenv_keep += EDITOR VISUAL PAGER Otherwise sudo will ignore your environment and use the defaults for the new user. 2. Change the default editor on your system by putting something in /etc/env.d: apollo ~ # cat /etc/env.d/99editor EDITOR=vim --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Donnerstag 01 Oktober 2009, Arthur D. wrote: Hello, happy Gentoo users! I'm new on this distro, so I'm sorry if you consider to be stupid what I gonna say. Many of us prefer editors other than nano. Some of us believe in ideas of freedom and choice which Gentoo provides us with. But... There're ones who prefer primitive hardcoding over giving the enduser to choose. There're defaults set by someone, that you should respect. Because... Just because he wants so. Because you are nothing. Just another ungrateful user... An example? The package SUDO. It is one of the most mandatory packages in distro. But it totally ignores the enduser's favor in editing. It just hardcodes what the ebuild's maintainer decided. Once and forever. Do you want to remove nano from your system? DON'T DO THAT! Or you gonna get some issues, you shouldn't get, if the things work as expected. I just installed VIM with emerge, and removed nano because I considered it to be absolutely unnecessary in my system. Why I need nano? I am a VIM fan. And here the troubles begin... Run sudo visudo and you get this: ~ $ sudo visudo visudo: no editor found (editor path = /bin/nano) ~ $ env | grep -i edit EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim What a surprise! Hm... Possibly I did something wrong when setting my system, that terminates me with this error?.. So I was forced to spend my time analysing what is wrong with the package and how to fix that. Because I remember it was working as expected in my previous LFS (linuxfromscratch) system. My quests leaded me to the ebuild of sudo. And I saw this nice shiny line there: --with-editor=/bin/nano Stop. I don't use nano. I even don't have it! But the ebuild doesn't check if nano is installed. No care. It was just like said to me: Hey, you are just a stupid moron! Who removes default editor? He-he... I asked the ebuild maintainer to fix this behaviour. And what did he say? You should read manual page of sudo in order to make it work as expected. To make it respect your preferences. And I don't care what editor you prefer. Nano is Gentoo default editor!!! You understand? Stop boring me! I will not change anything! Ha-ha... Actually it was said in other words but the idea is same. Looks like the principle it just works is not for Gentoo users. If you don't agree with ignoring of your preferences, please vote for this bug: http://bugs.gentoo.org/votes.cgi?action=show_userbug_id=286017#vote_286017 P.S. Having defaults is not bad. But they should not override our favourites. Thank you. -- Best regards, Spinal and isn't the real upstream hard coded editor vim? so.. how about... you know... don't get your panties in a knot about nothing?
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Arthur D. wrote: Hello, happy Gentoo users! I'm new on this distro, so I'm sorry if you consider to be stupid what I gonna say. Many of us prefer editors other than nano. Some of us believe in ideas of freedom and choice which Gentoo provides us with. But... There're ones who prefer primitive hardcoding over giving the enduser to choose. There're defaults set by someone, that you should respect. Because... Just because he wants so. Because you are nothing. Just another ungrateful user... An example? The package SUDO. It is one of the most mandatory packages in distro. But it totally ignores the enduser's favor in editing. It just hardcodes what the ebuild's maintainer decided. Once and forever. Do you want to remove nano from your system? DON'T DO THAT! Or you gonna get some issues, you shouldn't get, if the things work as expected. I just installed VIM with emerge, and removed nano because I considered it to be absolutely unnecessary in my system. Why I need nano? I am a VIM fan. And here the troubles begin... Run sudo visudo and you get this: ~ $ sudo visudo visudo: no editor found (editor path = /bin/nano) ~ $ env | grep -i edit EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim What a surprise! Hm... Possibly I did something wrong when setting my system, that terminates me with this error?.. So I was forced to spend my time analysing what is wrong with the package and how to fix that. Because I remember it was working as expected in my previous LFS (linuxfromscratch) system. My quests leaded me to the ebuild of sudo. And I saw this nice shiny line there: --with-editor=/bin/nano Stop. I don't use nano. I even don't have it! But the ebuild doesn't check if nano is installed. No care. It was just like said to me: Hey, you are just a stupid moron! Who removes default editor? He-he... I asked the ebuild maintainer to fix this behaviour. And what did he say? You should read manual page of sudo in order to make it work as expected. To make it respect your preferences. And I don't care what editor you prefer. Nano is Gentoo default editor!!! You understand? Stop boring me! I will not change anything! Ha-ha... Actually it was said in other words but the idea is same. Looks like the principle it just works is not for Gentoo users. If you don't agree with ignoring of your preferences, please vote for this bug: http://bugs.gentoo.org/votes.cgi?action=show_userbug_id=286017#vote_286017 P.S. Having defaults is not bad. But they should not override our favourites. Thank you. -- Best regards, Spinal This behavior is controlled by the EDITOR environmental variable, which you should change in /etc/rc.conf. It's one of the first things I change when I tackle a new build. The reason why the default is what it is is a good one: the default agrees with the rest of the initial Gentoo environment when you first build it. Luckily for you, everything in Gentoo is very easy to change. Also, one should always pose ones queries in the form of a question instead of an attack. And for the love of God, don't feed the devs! DC signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 17:44 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: [long post about something relatively trivial] sudoedit (and others) use the EDITOR (or VISUAL or whatever) environment variable to chose an editor. Gentoo defaults to nano. It's easy to change it (most experienced Linux users do). # emerge -C nano emerge vim # echo EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim /etc/env.d/99local # env-update And he's right, as a meta distribution, it just works is generally *not* regarded as a Gentoo principle to shoot for.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Arthur D. wrote: Many of us prefer editors other than nano. Me included. I don't have nano installed here - I use LE. The package SUDO. It is one of the most mandatory packages in distro. Hmm. It's not even installed on any of my 15 systems - no use for it whatsoever. The default editor is set in /etc/rc.conf. Never had a problem with that. Methinks RTFM applies? Be lucky, Neil http://www.neiljw.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Albert Hopkins mar...@letterboxes.org wrote: [very clear, consice, polite answer to the OP's question] And he's right, as a meta distribution, it just works is generally *not* regarded as a Gentoo principle to shoot for. And oddly, in fact, it usually it's still a goal usually reached, or at least rather easily attained in all of 2 steps past emerge (often mentioned in emerge output) by the admin. It Just Works though, in other distros, applies all the way up to the line where you start trying to decide things for yourself, while the distro maintainers have decided other things for you... I saw it back in Mandrake, I see it now in Ubuntu. Wonderful distros for ease of use, but stripping them down to a minimal system and expecting all my favorite pieces to happily coexist never quite just works. I'm strongly considering, now that I've the drive space (upped from 4gb to 16gb) in my netbook, bringing the last of my 'nix boxes back to Gentoo for the very fact that the system's been lacking in the It Just Works principle. Randomly, an oddly fitting quote in my signature. -- Poison [BLX] Joshua M. Murphy The price of greatness is responsibility. - Sir Winston Churchill
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Thanks for your replies, guys. 2. Change the default editor on your system by putting something in /etc/env.d: apollo ~ # cat /etc/env.d/99editor EDITOR=vim --Mike === spi...@supervisor ~ $ cat /etc/env.d/99editor # Configuration file for eselect # This file has been automatically generated. EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim spi...@supervisor ~ $ sudo visudo visudo: no editor found (editor path = /bin/nano) === The first option works fine, but ... how much time should the user spend to get things just work as expected? Yes, there are such geeks like me and you, who will spend his time doing what should already be done by maintainers. Look in the man page, it's far from obvious why isn't EDITOR variable respected. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:44:41 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: My quests leaded me to the ebuild of sudo. And I saw this nice shiny line there: --with-editor=/bin/nano P.S. Having defaults is not bad. But they should not override our favourites. What you you think that line in the ebuild does? It changes the *default* editor for visudo. If you want something else, all you need to do is set your system up accordingly as described in the installation instructions of the handbook. PS Good luck getting anything changed to suit your demands with your attitude. You don't pay the devs enough for them to put up with that. -- Neil Bothwick Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 1 Oct 2009, at 15:44, Arthur D. wrote: ... I just installed VIM with emerge, and removed nano because I considered it to be absolutely unnecessary in my system. Why I need nano? I am a VIM fan. And here the troubles begin... Run sudo visudo and you get this: ~ $ sudo visudo visudo: no editor found (editor path = /bin/nano) ~ $ env | grep -i edit EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim You seem to have alienated some responses with your posting manner, but it seems that folks are replying without reading the above. Here, as user stroller, `sudo visudo` runs nano. If I `su` to root, then vi is used. In both environments `echo $EDITOR` now returns /usr/bin/vim. (previously user stroller had just vi set as editor, but changing it sourcing .bashrc doesn't make any difference) I'm unclear why the user preference of editor seems to be ignored here. If I `touch /etc/sudoers.tmp touch /etc/sudoers.tmp chmod 777 / etc/sudoers.tmp /etc/sudoers` then `visudo` does indeed seem to use vi. So it seems to me that you're right. It appears like maybe when `sudo` detects that it's running `visudo` it does seem to ignore $EDITOR. I, too, disagree with this behaviour. IMO the ebuild (--with-editor=/bin/ nano) take the editor from /etc/rc.conf, but I'm extremely curious why upstream makes this behaviour, anyway. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 1 Oct 2009, at 16:40, Stroller wrote: ... So it seems to me that you're right. It appears like maybe when `sudo` detects that it's running `visudo` it does seem to ignore $EDITOR. I, too, disagree with this behaviour. IMO the ebuild (-- with-editor=/bin/nano) take the editor from /etc/rc.conf, but I'm extremely curious why upstream makes this behaviour, anyway. Actually READING the bug actually showed a number of reasoned responses to the OP's complaint. I don't think you'll have much luck debating this: since upstream hardcodes it, it comes down largely to the nano-as-default-editor argument, which was first made in the Paleolithic era and which has been hotly debated without change since. I now appear unable to access that bug: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=286017 Thanks for that. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Arthur D. wrote: The first option works fine, but ... how much time should the user spend to get things just work as expected? Plainly put, Gentoo isn't an easy-to-use distro. If it were, I don't think I would be using it, paradoxically enough. If spending a little time learning about and playing with the config files is outside of the purview of what you consider to be a functional distro, then perhaps you should look elsewhere. DC signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 18:58:43 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: 1. emerge -C nano 2. emerge vim 3. export EDITOR=`which vim` 4. Or do eselect editor - env-update ; or edit /etc/rc.conf - env-update 5. Reemerge sudo if you wish (it will not change anything) 6. Relogin 7. Run sudo visudo You get this: visudo: no editor found (editor path = /bin/nano) No I don't. I get /etc/sudoers loaded into joe, which is set in $EDITOR. You seem to be the only one suffering with this problem, so it seems reasonable to conclude that this is peculiar to your setup and that shouting at devs and other users will not fix it. -- Neil Bothwick In 1750 Issac Newton became discouraged when he fell up a flight of stairs. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
1. emerge -C nano 2. emerge vim 3. export EDITOR=`which vim` 4. Or do eselect editor - env-update ; or edit /etc/rc.conf - env-update 5. Reemerge sudo if you wish (it will not change anything) 6. Relogin 7. Run sudo visudo You get this: visudo: no editor found (editor path = /bin/nano) No I don't. I get /etc/sudoers loaded into joe, which is set in $EDITOR. You seem to be the only one suffering with this problem, so it seems reasonable to conclude that this is peculiar to your setup and that shouting at devs and other users will not fix it. I gonna bet you added magic line to your sudoers previously or make some other crutches to make it work: Defaults env_keep=EDITOR -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
2009/10/1 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru: Hello, happy Gentoo users! I'm new on this distro, so I'm sorry if you consider to be stupid what I gonna say. Many of us prefer editors other than nano. Some of us believe in ideas of freedom and choice which Gentoo provides us with. But... There're ones who prefer primitive hardcoding over giving the enduser to choose. There're defaults set by someone, that you should respect. Because... Just because he wants so. Because you are nothing. Just another ungrateful user... An example? The package SUDO. It is one of the most mandatory packages in distro. But it totally ignores the enduser's favor in editing. It just hardcodes what the ebuild's maintainer decided. Once and forever. Do you want to remove nano from your system? DON'T DO THAT! Or you gonna get some issues, you shouldn't get, if the things work as expected. I just installed VIM with emerge, and removed nano because I considered it to be absolutely unnecessary in my system. Why I need nano? I am a VIM fan. And here the troubles begin... Run sudo visudo and you get this: ~ $ sudo visudo visudo: no editor found (editor path = /bin/nano) ~ $ env | grep -i edit EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim What a surprise! Hm... Possibly I did something wrong when setting my system, that terminates me with this error?.. So I was forced to spend my time analysing what is wrong with the package and how to fix that. Because I remember it was working as expected in my previous LFS (linuxfromscratch) system. My quests leaded me to the ebuild of sudo. And I saw this nice shiny line there: --with-editor=/bin/nano Stop. I don't use nano. I even don't have it! But the ebuild doesn't check if nano is installed. No care. It was just like said to me: Hey, you are just a stupid moron! Who removes default editor? He-he... I asked the ebuild maintainer to fix this behaviour. And what did he say? You should read manual page of sudo in order to make it work as expected. To make it respect your preferences. And I don't care what editor you prefer. Nano is Gentoo default editor!!! You understand? Stop boring me! I will not change anything! Ha-ha... Actually it was said in other words but the idea is same. Looks like the principle it just works is not for Gentoo users. If you don't agree with ignoring of your preferences, please vote for this bug: http://bugs.gentoo.org/votes.cgi?action=show_userbug_id=286017#vote_286017 P.S. Having defaults is not bad. But they should not override our favourites. Section 8.c of the Gentoo Handbook (called System Information) advises you to edit /etc/rc.conf to change your preferences. Either you missed that section or didn't read the documentation, the dev has all the right to answer like that. Creating the bug before asking here was also not a good idea. -- Daniel da Veiga
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 19:21:07 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: I gonna bet you added magic line to your sudoers previously or make some other crutches to make it work: Defaults env_keep=EDITOR You lost that bet. -- Neil Bothwick Is it possible to be totally partial? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
I gonna bet you added magic line to your sudoers previously or make some other crutches to make it work: Defaults env_keep=EDITOR You lost that bet. Proof? Section 8.c of the Gentoo Handbook (called System Information) advises you to edit /etc/rc.conf to change your preferences. Daniel, I read the book carefully and did all that was need. Also I commented #EDITOR=/bin/nano And set EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim there Any more suggestions? -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
2009/10/1 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru: I gonna bet you added magic line to your sudoers previously or make some other crutches to make it work: Defaults env_keep=EDITOR You lost that bet. Proof? Section 8.c of the Gentoo Handbook (called System Information) advises you to edit /etc/rc.conf to change your preferences. Daniel, I read the book carefully and did all that was need. Also I commented #EDITOR=/bin/nano And set EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim there Any more suggestions? I'm using a 4 years old system, and if I change that line, log out and in again, it changes the env variable and everything works (that means the behavior is probably caused by your configuration). If visudo is still using that configuration, maybe that's because some configuration file has precedence over environment variables. In that case, you gotta find that file and change it. Not an easy task, anyway... I just did an grep -r /bin/nano in /etc. LOL, I know there's a better way, I'm just too lazy to look for it... -- Daniel da Veiga
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
I'm using a 4 years old system, and if I change that line, log out and in again, it changes the env variable and everything works (that means the behavior is probably caused by your configuration). If visudo is still using that configuration, maybe that's because some configuration file has precedence over environment variables. In that case, you gotta find that file and change it. Not an easy task, anyway... I just did an grep -r /bin/nano in /etc. LOL, I know there's a better way, I'm just too lazy to look for it... Man, running sudo visudo and just running visudo is not the same. Be careful. Nano is hardcoded in sudo's ebuild. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
As the access to the bug was denied by the admin please use this link for discussion: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-795069.html Thanks. -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
2009/10/1 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru I'm using a 4 years old system, and if I change that line, log out and in again, it changes the env variable and everything works (that means the behavior is probably caused by your configuration). If visudo is still using that configuration, maybe that's because some configuration file has precedence over environment variables. In that case, you gotta find that file and change it. Not an easy task, anyway... I just did an grep -r /bin/nano in /etc. LOL, I know there's a better way, I'm just too lazy to look for it... Man, running sudo visudo and just running visudo is not the same. Be careful. Nano is hardcoded in sudo's ebuild. OK, for the Nth time on this thread - it is all about *YOUR* configuration *IN YOUR SUDOERS FILE* - *by default*, sudo DOES NOT preserve the environmental variables of the current user - it *DOES NOT* replace them with variables from your profile, as *IT IS NOT RUNNING THE COMMAND IN AN INTERACTIVE SHELL LOGIN* - if you want that behaviour, try using sudo -i. To see *VERY EXPLICITLY* what you have been told *OVER AND OVER* on this thread, do the following: sudo env sudo -i env and look at the difference. Unless *YOU* configure sudo the *NOT* reset environmental variables, it is configured *BY DEFAULT* to blank out all but a very few - once again, *THIS INCLUDES THE EDITOR VARIABLE*. Once again, to fix the issue, do one of the 3 following procedures: 1 - Make all users preserve env variables when using sudo (least secure): sudo -i visudo #This will start a visudo session *with vim*, since you are using the -i option, which causes sudo to execute the command from an interactive shell (which will read all env variables as you have configured) comment out the line that reads: Defaultsenv_reset save, quit, and now your problem is solved. 2 - Make only users in the wheel group preserve env variables when using sudo (more secure): sudo -i visudo uncomment out the line that reads: #Defaults:%wheel!env_reset save, quit if your user is not already in the wheel group, add it into it: gpasswd -a username wheel then log out and log back in, and now your problem is solved. 3 - Make only the EDITOR env variable preserved when using sudo (even more secure): sudo -i visudo add the following line: Defaults env_delete-=EDITOR save, quit Now, there are *NUMEROUS* other ways that *YOU* can fix *YOUR CONFIG* to solve *YOUR PROBLEM* - *HOWEVER*, continually ignoring the numerous fixes that other users have replied to you with, and being hostile towards both devs *and* the user community (Proof? WTF is your problem? You come here asking for help, and then ignore the help you're given, and accuse a *very* long-time user and *very* respected member of the community of *lying* to you when he is trying to help you? Get your attitude fixed - seriously). I hope that helps get your problem (and your hostility) resolved. -James -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
James Ausmus, I solved this proble long ago. I just curios, why it's not solved by portage? So the users should spend their time diggin in manuals to find why is sudo not working in Gentoo like it does in LFS or any other distro?.. Is this the Gentoo way or something? -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Donnerstag 01 Oktober 2009, Arthur D. wrote: As the access to the bug was denied by the admin please use this link for discussion: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-795069.html Thanks. wow, you must have been VERY obnoxious to have the bug closed for others. First time I see that. ... well.. vim users
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 1 Oct 2009, at 19:07, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Donnerstag 01 Oktober 2009, Arthur D. wrote: As the access to the bug was denied by the admin please use this link for discussion: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-795069.html wow, you must have been VERY obnoxious to have the bug closed for others. First time I see that. I saw the bug earlier, must have been 30 minutes before it was closed. It didn't seem obnoxious as such, but the dev considered the bug closed and I think it kept getting reopened as others added comments. There was certainly a request in the bug please do not reopen as I do not want to make this bug devs only when I saw it, but all was polite. This is really a shame, as the discussion there was really more insightful that that here - lots of people here are echoing stuff that was already explained in the bug, and some of what is being echoed here is apparently wrong. It seemed to all be quite clearly explained in the responses to the bug report. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 1 Oct 2009, at 19:40, Stroller wrote: On 1 Oct 2009, at 19:07, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Donnerstag 01 Oktober 2009, Arthur D. wrote: As the access to the bug was denied by the admin please use this link for discussion: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-795069.html wow, you must have been VERY obnoxious to have the bug closed for others. First time I see that. I saw the bug earlier, must have been 30 minutes before it was closed. It didn't seem obnoxious as such, but the dev considered the bug closed and I think it kept getting reopened as others added comments. There was certainly a request in the bug please do not reopen as I do not want to make this bug devs only when I saw it, but all was polite. This is really a shame, as the discussion there was really more insightful that that here - lots of people here are echoing stuff that was already explained in the bug, and some of what is being echoed here is apparently wrong. It seemed to all be quite clearly explained in the responses to the bug report. I meant to add, the Google cache seems to be missing most of these useful comments. :( http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:Ywvu1cqDSmcJ:bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi%3Fid%3D286017+gentoo+286017cd=1hl=enct=clnk or http://preview.tinyurl.com/yborwyw Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 21:10:19 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: James Ausmus, I solved this proble long ago. I just curios, So you're just ranting, you don't actually have a problem to solve and your question was rhetorical venting? why it's not solved by portage? What problem? That the default editor for visudo is set to the same as the default editor for the rest of the system? I don't see that as a problem. Lot's of people use Vim as their default editor. Gentoo lets you use any editor you like, even something as arcane as Vim... -- Neil Bothwick I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:34:15 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: Man, running sudo visudo and just running visudo is not the same. True, but both call $EDITOR here. Be careful. Nano is hardcoded in sudo's ebuild. Yes, as a default when no other editor is specified. That means no $EDITOR variable visible to visudo and no default specified in /etc/sudoers. It does NOT mean that visudo is hard coded to use nano, merely that the Gentoo devs have set the fallback to something they know will be on a default Gentoo install. That seems a sensible decision to me. -- Neil Bothwick Why is the word abbreviation so long? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
2009/10/1 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru James Ausmus, I solved this proble long ago. I just curios, why it's not solved by portage? So the users should spend their time diggin in manuals to find why is sudo not working in Gentoo like it does in LFS or any other distro?.. Is this the Gentoo way or something? The Gentoo Way of doing things is to stick as close to vanilla upstream as possible, and to enable you to have complete control over your box, including configurations. In other words, if you want something configured differently than vanilla, you have to do the work. This being said, yes, the ebuild configures sudo to use /bin/nano as a fallback, if no other editors are specified to visudo (either via env vars or via the sudoers config file). This is a very sane thing to do by default, as nano is part of the default stage3 install, has no easy-to-screw-up dependencies, is very small, and, unless the user really knows what they are doing, is pretty much always guaranteed to be on a Gentoo system and usable - the key point being that the user really knows what they are doing, enough to specifically unmerge nano after emerging a different editor that satisfies the RDEPEND dependencies of virtual/editor (which, if you don't have any satisfactory editor installed, will pull in nano - it's small, it always works). There have been several times in the past where I have screwed up my system to the point that vi/vim will not run, and having nano around as an editor has saved me from having to reboot into a livecd. All this all this said, if you want to modify the sudo ebuild to either be smarter about specifying the fallback editor by looking at the available editors on the system, or have USE-based editor flags (probably not a good idea, as there are a lot of different console editors that will satisfy the virtual/editor RDEPEND, and switching preferred editors is so trivial that I don't think the Gentoo devs would be willing to justify another USE-expanded flag in make.conf), then the maintainer for the sudo package might consider. But, then again, since nano pretty much always works, it's trivial to change your configs to never use nano, and nano is pretty much always guaranteed to be there (unless, again, you really know what you're doing, in which case you should know how to modify your configs to disregard nano), they most likely wouldn't accept the change. But if you are passionate enough about not having to trivially modify your configs, then you can create an overlay with your modified ebuild, and be your own sudo ebuild maintainer. See all the flexibility Gentoo gives you? A trivial amount of config modification is an extremely small price to pay for all the power and flexibility (not to mention the extremely helpful devs and community, when you're willing to discuss and listen instead of just attack and provoke). -James -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 05:08:16PM +0100, Stroller wrote: On 1 Oct 2009, at 16:40, Stroller wrote: ... So it seems to me that you're right. It appears like maybe when `sudo` detects that it's running `visudo` it does seem to ignore $EDITOR. I, too, disagree with this behaviour. IMO the ebuild (-- with-editor=/bin/nano) take the editor from /etc/rc.conf, but I'm extremely curious why upstream makes this behaviour, anyway. Actually READING the bug actually showed a number of reasoned responses to the OP's complaint. I don't think you'll have much luck debating this: since upstream hardcodes it, it comes down largely to the nano-as-default-editor argument, which was first made in the Paleolithic era and which has been hotly debated without change since. I now appear unable to access that bug: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=286017 Thanks for that. Stroller. I'm unable to read the bug as well, which I find bothersome (how many bugs have they hidden from users?). However, I'm also wondering why the ebuild doesn't make use of the EDITOR variable as was mentioned. This defaults to nano so it should work fine in a default install, and would avoid issues like this which seems to be an arguement that the dev(s) are trying to force specific programs on the users.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Arthur D. wrote: James Ausmus, I solved this proble long ago. I just curios, why it's not solved by portage? So the users should spend their time diggin in manuals to find why is sudo not working in Gentoo like it does in LFS or any other distro?.. Is this the Gentoo way or something? Perhaps you should find a distribution more suited to your abilities/expectations. Clearly, Gentoo is not for you. Neil http://www.neiljw.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Am Donnerstag 01 Oktober 2009 21:32:56 schrieb forgottenwizard: However, I'm also wondering why the ebuild doesn't make use of the EDITOR variable as was mentioned. Because that's the worst thing to do. An ebuild's behaviour should not depend on env variables (like it's still the case for this stupid grub ebuild), because the user never get's to see this. There are other possibilities, i.e. something like LINGUAS or VIDEO_CARDS, which are immediately visible. Bye... Dirk
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Perhaps you should find a distribution more suited to your abilities/expectations. Clearly, Gentoo is not for you. Really? Do you just give up and eat what people tell you to eat? I don't respect such people, really. I prefer to change the things, that I think are not right. Obtruding the default editor (not just fallbacking but hardcoding) is bad tendency for sure.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
Dirk Heinrichs dirk.heinri...@online.de писал(а) в своём письме Thu, 01
Oct 2009 22:45:40 +0300:
Am Donnerstag 01 Oktober 2009 21:32:56 schrieb forgottenwizard:
However, I'm also wondering why the ebuild doesn't make use of the
EDITOR variable as was mentioned.
Because that's the worst thing to do. An ebuild's behaviour should not
depend
on env variables (like it's still the case for this stupid grub ebuild),
because the user never get's to see this.
Oh, really?
Snipped from sudo's ebuild:
econf --with-secure-path=${ROOTPATH}
What do you think about this line? There's an issue connected with that
string by the way.
You may want to check it:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=286014
The maintainer didn't even notice user about hardcoding ROOTPATH in sudo.
And, even more, he didn't check that manual page is saying that secure_path
is unset by default. And again I (the enduser) was forced to go check the
ebuilds
to see why sudo doesn't work as expected.
--
Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
James Ausmus james.aus...@gmail.com писал(а) в своём письме Thu, 01 Oct 2009 22:04:38 +0300: The Gentoo Way of doing things is to stick as close to vanilla upstream as possible, and to enable you to have complete control over your box, including configurations. In other words, if you want something configured differently than vanilla, you have to do the work. James, what vanilla are you speaking about? I used vanilla sudo in my LinuxFromScratch system for several years and I nevert noticed that VIsudo tries to force me with some other editor than VI. Maybe it's called VIsudo because VIM is better alternative for VANILLA, hah? I think it's most reasonably to omit that hardcoding line from ebuild. I'm sure visudo will notice the user about what should be done to make it work as expected and that's better behaviour than complaining about missing /bin/nano, don't u think so?
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 10/1/2009 1:34 PM, Arthur D. wrote: I'm using a 4 years old system, and if I change that line, log out and in again, it changes the env variable and everything works (that means the behavior is probably caused by your configuration). If visudo is still using that configuration, maybe that's because some configuration file has precedence over environment variables. In that case, you gotta find that file and change it. Not an easy task, anyway... I just did an grep -r /bin/nano in /etc. LOL, I know there's a better way, I'm just too lazy to look for it... Man, running sudo visudo and just running visudo is not the same. Be careful. Nano is hardcoded in sudo's ebuild. Normal users cannot run visudo, so you must already be root to run it, or else use 'sudo visudo'. In the first case, it uses your EDITOR variable and there is no problem. In the second case, as already explained, it uses the first one of: * The EDITOR variable, if you've told sudo to keep it set * The default editor from the sudoers file, if you've set that * The default editor from the ebuild, which is nano. It is also not just visudo that has this behavior. Just run this: apollo ~ # sudo $EDITOR and if you haven't explicitly told sudo to preserve the EDITOR variable it will fail. As will any other program that reads EDITOR (or VISUAL, the other popular one). Point being, the behavior you're seeing isn't a bug in the sudo ebuild --- it's intended and intentional behavior of sudo itself. --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 10/1/2009 3:32 PM, forgottenwizard wrote: However, I'm also wondering why the ebuild doesn't make use of the EDITOR variable as was mentioned. This defaults to nano so it should work fine in a default install, and would avoid issues like this which seems to be an arguement that the dev(s) are trying to force specific programs on the users. I would be hesitant to use a user-specific variable like EDITOR to define the system-wide default on an ebuild. For example, what if my EDITOR was set to gvim or emacs when I installed sudo, then some other remote user tried to run visudo over ssh? --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
I would be hesitant to use a user-specific variable like EDITOR to define the system-wide default on an ebuild. For example, what if my EDITOR was set to gvim or emacs when I installed sudo, then some other remote user tried to run visudo over ssh? Consider that gvim will be just a fallback, as said before. And at least visudo will not complaint about missing gvim binary... The worst thing that can happen, it will just complaint about missing X server on the local side. Though, it's better than complaining about missing binary that was not supposed by enduser to be in place at all... It's like, oh, please you install nano, or I refuse to run. Obtrusively, no? -- Best regards, Spinal
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 1 Oct 2009, at 21:28, Mike Edenfield wrote: On 10/1/2009 3:32 PM, forgottenwizard wrote: However, I'm also wondering why the ebuild doesn't make use of the EDITOR variable as was mentioned. This defaults to nano so it should work fine in a default install, and would avoid issues like this which seems to be an arguement that the dev(s) are trying to force specific programs on the users. I would be hesitant to use a user-specific variable like EDITOR to define the system-wide default on an ebuild. For example, what if my EDITOR was set to gvim or emacs when I installed sudo, then some other remote user tried to run visudo over ssh? I think it should get the $EDITOR variable set in rc.conf Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Donnerstag 01 Oktober 2009, Stroller wrote: On 1 Oct 2009, at 21:28, Mike Edenfield wrote: On 10/1/2009 3:32 PM, forgottenwizard wrote: However, I'm also wondering why the ebuild doesn't make use of the EDITOR variable as was mentioned. This defaults to nano so it should work fine in a default install, and would avoid issues like this which seems to be an arguement that the dev(s) are trying to force specific programs on the users. I would be hesitant to use a user-specific variable like EDITOR to define the system-wide default on an ebuild. For example, what if my EDITOR was set to gvim or emacs when I installed sudo, then some other remote user tried to run visudo over ssh? I think it should get the $EDITOR variable set in rc.conf Stroller. it is set in /etv/env.d - why is that not enough?
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 1 Oct 2009, at 22:01, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Donnerstag 01 Oktober 2009, Stroller wrote: On 1 Oct 2009, at 21:28, Mike Edenfield wrote: On 10/1/2009 3:32 PM, forgottenwizard wrote: However, I'm also wondering why the ebuild doesn't make use of the EDITOR variable as was mentioned. This defaults to nano so it should work fine in a default install, and would avoid issues like this which seems to be an arguement that the dev(s) are trying to force specific programs on the users. I would be hesitant to use a user-specific variable like EDITOR to define the system-wide default on an ebuild. For example, what if my EDITOR was set to gvim or emacs when I installed sudo, then some other remote user tried to run visudo over ssh? I think it should get the $EDITOR variable set in rc.conf it is set in /etv/env.d - why is that not enough? Uh, because the ebuild ignores that, too, and hard-codes it. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:45:51 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: It's like, oh, please you install nano, or I refuse to run. It's nothing like that at all. As long as you have an editor installed and configured correctly, visudo will quite happily run without nano. -- Neil Bothwick Help put the fun back in dysfunctional ! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:12:36 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: I think it's most reasonably to omit that hardcoding line from ebuild. I think you need to re-read the ebuild. sudo depends on virtual/editor, not nano. Nowhere is nano hardcoded to be a requirement of sudo. On the other hand, if you went with the upstream settings, you'd need to add vim as a dependency, even for those that don't wish to use it. Forcing such things on the user is most definitely not the Gentoo Way. -- Neil Bothwick PCMCIA: People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On 1 Oct 2009, at 23:53, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:12:36 +0300, Arthur D. wrote: I think it's most reasonably to omit that hardcoding line from ebuild. I think you need to re-read the ebuild. sudo depends on virtual/ editor, not nano. Nowhere is nano hardcoded to be a requirement of sudo. On the other hand, if you went with the upstream settings, you'd need to add vim as a dependency, even for those that don't wish to use it. Forcing such things on the user is most definitely not the Gentoo Way. You appear to be demonstrating that you don't fully understand the problem: 828 ~ $ grep nano /usr/portage/app-admin/sudo/sudo-1.7.2_p1.ebuild # XXX: /bin/vi may not be available, make nano visudo's default. --with-editor=/bin/nano \ 829 ~ $ Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:54:50 +0100, Stroller wrote: I think you need to re-read the ebuild. sudo depends on virtual/ editor, not nano. Nowhere is nano hardcoded to be a requirement of sudo. On the other hand, if you went with the upstream settings, you'd need to add vim as a dependency, even for those that don't wish to use it. Forcing such things on the user is most definitely not the Gentoo Way. You appear to be demonstrating that you don't fully understand the problem: 828 ~ $ grep nano /usr/portage/app-admin/sudo/sudo-1.7.2_p1.ebuild # XXX: /bin/vi may not be available, make nano visudo's default. --with-editor=/bin/nano \ How so? That config option for sudo sets the DEFAULT editor, what to use if nothing is defined in the config file or environment variable. That's what both my text and the portion of the ebuild that you have quoted state. It in no way forces the use of nano in order to use visudo. If that were the case, DEPENDS would specify nano instead of accepting virtual/editor. visudo is not hard coded to use nano, or even $EDITOR, you can set it to use whatever you want. The ebuild merely makes sure the default tallies with the default for $EDITOR. -- Neil Bothwick I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't give a damn. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 09:45:40PM +0200, Dirk Heinrichs wrote: Am Donnerstag 01 Oktober 2009 21:32:56 schrieb forgottenwizard: However, I'm also wondering why the ebuild doesn't make use of the EDITOR variable as was mentioned. Because that's the worst thing to do. An ebuild's behaviour should not depend on env variables (like it's still the case for this stupid grub ebuild), because the user never get's to see this. There are other possibilities, i.e. something like LINGUAS or VIDEO_CARDS, which are immediately visible. Bye... Dirk So instead it should set a non-existant editor to the configured default? Another variable in make.conf may be a reasonable fix for this though I'm sure someone will bitch about having to set $EDITOR twice on their system.
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 12:04:38PM -0700, James Ausmus wrote: 2009/10/1 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru The Gentoo Way of doing things is to stick as close to vanilla upstream as possible, and to enable you to have complete control over your box, including configurations. In other words, if you want something configured differently than vanilla, you have to do the work. How many packages actually follow upstream without patching the source?
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
In response to the subject and the OP . . . YES! If you'd rather have your free OS accommodate your needs, then perhaps you should find/create one. Otherwise, shut up or make your suggestions less obnoxious (realizing the non-native English issue). The OP's position (from what I can tell) has been combative and less than conducive to progress. In the end, Gentoo is a distro that is free of charge and . . . well. . . . pretty good. Non-devs are welcome to make suggestions, but not demands. If you'd rather have vim (or easier access to it), then go somewhere else. Nano is the editor of (default)choice. IF it is REALLY a situation where Gentoo is not providing its users with a choice of editor and this is a problem for you, then use something else. To claim that I try to change things that are 'wrong' (I fight for injustice) is silly, in this context. This is not civil rights . . . this is not genocide . . . this is an OS distro that is free and MAY fit your needs. To complain about it on the scale that the OP has, is just (again) SILLY! (you are not a saint) To all of those who took the time to put this joker into his/her place, I applaud you. It's amazing how often subtly fails. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 7:45 PM, forgottenwizard phrexianrea...@hushmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 12:04:38PM -0700, James Ausmus wrote: 2009/10/1 Arthur D. spinal...@mail.ru The Gentoo Way of doing things is to stick as close to vanilla upstream as possible, and to enable you to have complete control over your box, including configurations. In other words, if you want something configured differently than vanilla, you have to do the work. How many packages actually follow upstream without patching the source?
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 20:55 -0500, Neal Hogan wrote: To claim that I try to change things that are 'wrong' (I fight for injustice) is silly, in this context. This is not civil rights . . . this is not genocide . . . this is an OS distro that is free and MAY fit your needs. To complain about it on the scale that the OP has, is just (again) SILLY! (you are not a saint) Of course he is not a saint. He is a martyr!
Re: [gentoo-user] Am I wrong?..
You appear to be demonstrating that you don't fully understand the problem: 828 ~ $ grep nano /usr/portage/app-admin/sudo/sudo-1.7.2_p1.ebuild # XXX: /bin/vi may not be available, make nano visudo's default. --with-editor=/bin/nano \ How so? That config option for sudo sets the DEFAULT editor, what to use if nothing is defined in the config file or environment variable. That's what both my text and the portion of the ebuild that you have quoted state. It in no way forces the use of nano in order to use visudo. If that were the case, DEPENDS would specify nano instead of accepting virtual/editor. Agree. There's no need in making vim as depends. But in other hand in vanilla sudo package there's VI hardcoded by default. And MOST if not ALL users who have VIM installed on their shiny Gentoo systems expect that VIsudo will behave as it did for long tim ago. There are historical (or some other) reasons for making VI default editor for this utility. It's like they don't respect not only endusers favours but the developers' too, no? WHY NOT CHECK if vim binary is in place and ONLY THEN (when it's obviously absent) hardcode the Gentoo Best Award of Choice Editor? I repeat once more. Every user who has VIM installed on theirs systems is forced to do extra configuration, to make sudo work as expected, just because someone prefer other editor and thinks that vanilla choice is bad. Isn't that just stupid? -- Best regards, Spinal
