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TITLERe: [PEN-L:8381] good news!/TITLE
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[Well, I'm always up for some crisis-talk, Doug! One thing ya gotta say here is that
no specific reason is given in the whole spiel. More crisis-mongering below ... ]BR
FONT SIZE="2"BR
ÝNot only will today's good
What kind of interest rate policy might come out of Tuesday and Wednesday's
Federal Reserve meeting if the two vacant seats on the Fed's Board of
Governors were filled by worker-friendly governors with different
perspectives than the conventional academic economists who dominate the Board
I don't know how many of your saw Nightline - June 29 1999 on the happy life
that Asian Americans are enjoying in America these days.
Of course, they are just all hper-sensitive.
Henry C.K. Liu
Nightline
Monday June 28, 1999
Its not a great time to be Asian-American in
Thanks for posting this sensible analysis by Colander, Lou. Two comments:
Economics research has become more a move in a game of chess than
a search for understanding reality.
Actually, I gave up tournament chess to focus on economics. I was no Ken Rogoff
(grandmaster, then leading
Craven, Jim wrote:
Just another pampered self-absorbed CV-building punk.
Wow! Glad I missed it...
I apologize if am in a sour mood. I hope that we can learn to sort things
out. A system that condemns 1/3 of the Black children is racist.
and is likely to remain racist for a long time
G'day again,
A while back, I wrote that:
[I suspect Australia will be pretty interesting to the US already. I doubt
the US has not embarked on throwing Russia and China into each other's arms
lightly. Surely, they'd have a 'Son-of-Cold-War' scenario in mind by now?
Trade Minister (and deputy
I would insist, following Hegel, that difference by itself amounts to
an "indifferent differentiation", an endless difference in which
everything becomes everything, without anything being anything in
particular. If all cultures are simply different, how can there be any
difference between
Brad De Long wrote:
... and is likely to remain racist for a long time to come--unless
America's left can unify and organize...
I just read a quote attributed to Ronald Reagan, of all people, in
today's paper. He said that someone who agrees with you 80% of the
time isn't your enemy. Maybe
You haven't commented on this. What's the buzz?
Others have been excoriated for much less.
mbs
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:59:35 -0400
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: NYSE-FARC
[The "president of capitalism" touts shareholder democracy to armed
revolutionaries]
Henry C.K. Liu wrote:
Note the tactic of shifting the issue to one of protocol rather than
substance.
The way you said it, Yosjie, is ungentlewoman like, therefore what
true.
This is utter crap, Henry. I never tried to stop discussion of race
on lbo-talk; the only thing I wanted to stop was
At 09:27 AM 6/29/99 -0400, you wrote:
You haven't commented on this. What's the buzz?
Others have been excoriated for much less.
mbs
The only thing that is odd is that Richard Grasso, frequent guest on the
Don Imus show, is involved. I would have presumed that all sorts of
high-level
On Monday, June 28, 1999 at 22:07:06 (PDT) Rod Hay writes:
RH: The truth that religion holds is this. It reifies the best human
qualities abstracts them from people and assigns them to a deity. ...
You mean like the part in II Kings (2:24) where God sends out two
she-bears from the woods to
This is precisely why Hegel, though his views were not racist, could easily lend
themselve into logical racism. People can and are diffierent without being better or
worse. To insist otherwise will lead towards a dangerous and inhuman path.
Henry C.K. Liu
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
I would
BLS DAILY REPORT, MONDAY, JUNE 28, 1999
Nearly two-thirds of 1998 high school graduates were enrolled in colleges or
universities in the fall, a percentage little changed in the last 2 years,
BLS reports. The enrollment rate for young women (69.1 percent) continued
to exceed that of young men
But what you quote is not at all the same as your previous "paraphrases". What you
said earlier is an distortion and exaggeration of what you quote below. "Guiding
principle" does not include the details and specifics. But the other thing you leave
out is that Mao Zedong's thought , which in
http://www.vcn.bc.ca/timework/worksite.htm
June 29, 1995 - June 29, 1999
Here's what they say about the TimeWork Web:
"Il s'agit d'un site particulièrement riche et bien fait autour du thème du
temps de travail en général, et de
-Original Message-
From: Peter Dorman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 11:14 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:8476] Re: David Colander -- "The Invisible Hand of
Truth"
Thanks for posting this sensible analysis by Colander, Lou. Two comments:
Economics
you may be aware that AIDS activists have been protesting Gore's role in attempts by
the US drug industry to bully South Africa into rescinding policies to make drugs
affordable.
Here's a letter from US Reps pushing on the other side. A Hall of Shame. Though I
understand Pascrell has switched
quoth Doug, from LBO #90, which I received today:
One of the depressing things about this war [against Serbia] is all the
side-taking that's been going on. Almost every position was built around
the endorsement of some nationalism or other; internationalism, difficult
enough in practice, could
Arianna Huffington, presente!
http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/062899.html
June 28, 1998,
Arianna Huffington, "Pharmacologic Al"
Presidential race 2000 has already spawned its first protests,
with demonstrators following Vice President Al Gore from
Tennessee to New Hampshire to
quoth Doug, from LBO #90, which I received today:
One of the depressing things about this war [against Serbia] is all the
side-taking that's been going on.
Well, of course Doug would write something like this. He is a journalist
above the fray.
Louis Proyect
The current direction of China is another issue which we have discussed at some
legenth on this and other lists.
This particularly debate is focused on an historical issue: whether Mao
purposefully murdered 30 million of his countrymen with an egotistic policy of
the Great Leap Forward.
Brad De Long wrote,
- snip -
Once again, lower material output per capita is associated with greater
human happiness because the disutility of work was lower.
Econometric attempts to estimate disutility of work today (and in the
past) have, however, been largely unsuccessful.
- snip -
I
It seems to me that the real issue is not whether there is truth content to
neoclassical economics but why neoclassical economists (but not just the
neoclassicals!) are so reticent about challenging the flagrantly bogus stuff
that abounds. My cynical guess is that it's a "professional
"Henry C.K. Liu" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/29/99 10:51AM
Typical. I suggested a comparison of Kennedy's campaign speeches to Lin Biao's
preface to Quotations From Mao, Professor DeLong produced a Kennedy graduation
address at Harvard on Robert Frost.
Kennedy described through his adulation of
===
RH: The truth that religion holds is this. It reifies the best human
qualities abstracts them from people and assigns them to a deity. It exists
and flurishes as Marx says because it gives hope and comfort in a world
without hope and comfort.
Maybe.
Response:
I got a call not long ago from my 5-year-old daughter's school. It seems
that she refused to repeat the "Pledge of Allegiance" because she felt "it
is a bunch of lies." Somehow, as a Blackfoot, she has a problem with the
concept of alleging the actuality [the promise is a lie also] of
excerptTypical. I suggested a comparison of Kennedy's campaign
speeches to Lin Biao's
preface to Quotations From Mao, Professor DeLong produced a Kennedy
graduation
address at Harvard on Robert Frost.
/excerpt
I have a limited number of documents online to post.
Be happy with what you can
Brad De Long wrote:
I didn't expect to be called a racist for daring to suggest that the
people of China deserved better than to be ruled by a boot-licking
theocrat like Lin Biao either...
As I said for the nth time, it is your callous lampoon of Chinese
language that
was an racist act,
July 12, 1999
Holocaust Creationism
by JON WIENER
Between 1945 and 1947 the United States underwent perhaps the most
breathtaking ideological transformation in its history. "The Good War,"
which had united America with Russia to save Western civilization from Nazi
barbarism, ended, and
Yes, professional courtesy, or the wish for a quiet life. "I am stuck with
this guy until I retire, so why make things unpleasant".
And although I said that there was truth content in neoclassical economics.
It is not all true (or I wouldn't be here). It is also useful. A good part
of what
And we've had the Proyect-Jones axis making
the most extraordinary claims that a murderous, kleptocratic regime
represented the last bastion of European socialism
It is a lie to state that I said that "socialism" was under attack. I am
sure that Cuba is socialist, but I am not so sure what
Louis Proyect wrote:
In some ways,
Chomsky with his blend of anarchism and libertarianism is less timid than
the averaged tenured Marxist professor. They have been trained to write in
a lofty, non-judgemental manner about history and economics, but rarely in
the exhortative manner found in
Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/29/99 02:22PM
Brad De Long wrote:
To take a document and replace all appearances of the string "Mao
Zedong" by the string "Max Sawicky" is hardly a lampoon--callous or
otherwise. You see, the thing about such "totalitarian" language is
it makes fun of
I don't know what to make of Louis' post. Louis claims the evidence suggests to
him that socialism is superior to capitalism. Then he cites statistics that speak
volumes that show that
Canada is superior to socialist Cuba in life expectancy, GDP per capita, and
education index.
Is Canada supposed
The underlying assumptions in this discourse make no sense to me. I
made a number
of comments re Brad's stuff but there was no response.
Just a few random notes.
1) What is utility?
2) Is utility measurable in cardinal terms?
3) Are interpersonal comparisons of utility
Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/29/99 02:22PM
Brad De Long wrote:
To take a document and replace all appearances of the string "Mao
Zedong" by the string "Max Sawicky" is hardly a lampoon--callous or
otherwise. You see, the thing about such "totalitarian" language is
it makes fun of
Louis Proyect wrote:
that is the time
you choose to allow them to reprint your LBO musings on the left and its
problems.
Actually James Heartfield asked me to write the article for LM. It
wasn't a reprint of anything.
Pathogenetically,
Doug
Ken Hanley wrote:
I don't know what to make of Louis' post. Louis claims the evidence
suggests to
him that socialism is superior to capitalism. Then he cites statistics
that speak
volumes that show that
Canada is superior to socialist Cuba in life expectancy, GDP per capita, and
education index.
By the way, here's the piece I wrote for LM that made Lou Proyect
sick. This is what I sent them; there may have been minor edits in
the published version.
Doug
IN LOVE WITH DISASTER
by Doug Henwood
Back in 1992, I wrote an article in the newsletter I edit
So, you quote about three or four lines of a preface that even in western culture is
the place where kudos and praise are the appropriate form, and you try to pawn it off
as typical of Lin Biao's and communist writing. That makes your little trick even more
dishonest.
Where is your response
jf noonan wrote:
For those of us not up on the diabolical machinations of
crypto-facist Henwood, what publication are you talking about?
LM, formerly known as Living Marxism, the former publication of the
former Revolutionary Communist Party (the British one, no relation to
Bob Avakian's
In Doug's article, he writes; That faith in inevitable self-destruction
has deeply unfortunate political consequences.
Even if catastrophist predictions _do_ work out, and the US falls into a
Depression-type disaster (pulling the rest of the world in even deeper than
they already are), without
Louis, don't you think it is a mistake to use "guilt by association
techniques" against Doug? After all, should we dump on Doug because he gets
published in the lily-livered liberal NATION magazine? (to its credit, the
NATION mostly opposed the Grand Patriotic War Against the Serbs.) Can we
Jim Devine wrote:
Louis, don't you think it is a mistake to use "guilt by association
techniques" against Doug? After all, should we dump on Doug because he gets
published in the lily-livered liberal NATION magazine? (to its credit, the
NATION mostly opposed the Grand Patriotic War Against the
RAVING MARXISM
by Matthew Price
Lingua Franca, March 1999
OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS, THERE HAVE been few magazines more hostile to
the concerns of transatlantic liberals and leftists than the glossy,
in-your-face British political monthly LM In recent months, for example, LM
has accused
Good post, Brad, especially about England and France. Do you have a
reference to Card Krueger's take on compensating wage differentials?
Peter
Brad De Long wrote:
Tom Walker wrote:
Case in point: I've asked the question three times "how does one
'adjust appropriately' for the
Michael Perelman wrote:
Fine, but then it must be addressed in a mature way.
You mean like the following by DeLong:
"But instead I will simply say that you have defecated into the stream of discourse
for too long."
I can respond in kind, but its not acceptable in Chinese culture to invoke
Point of order, what I quoted was from DeLong's post quoting Lin Biao, not
another source. That makes Charles point even stronger.
Henry C.K. Liu
Brad De Long wrote:
Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/29/99 02:22PM
Brad De Long wrote:
To take a document and replace all
Charles,
I missed the Lin Biao assassinated part. That's another DeLong fabrication. Perhaps
he got it from his buddies at the CIA.
Lin Biao was killed in a plane crash as his plane was shot down over the Chinese
border in 1973 as he was fleeing to the Soviet Union after a failed attempt to
I am still trying to wade through everything. I am afraid that if
things continue this way, I will have to do some unsubbing. I do not
like to see pen-l turn so nasty.
Brad De Long wrote:
... and is likely to remain racist for a long time to come--unless
America's left can unify and
Well, Rob,
We have been down that road a few times. And we has learned the program: "let
gather under the big umbrella" does not work if someone else in holding the
umbrella.
Even when capitalism finally dies, a few capitalists will be planning to make
profit from the funeral. My point is
I guess the reviewer's point in this pointless review is that he doesn't
like your book. I get more information about what the book is about from the
title than the review. What is this story that you apparently add nothing
too? Is there some sin in making comparison to the biological sciences.
You're lucky, Michael. Your detractors can spell.
Here's what they're saying about the time-work network:
"People who are spineless pussies need gov't regulations to
stand up for them. Weak, coddled, sniveling refugees from
Mama's apron strings dream of some loser on the Federal tit,
comming
Henry,
Two quotes from Lenin (which I can't locate now in his writings, but
both sound like him):
1. There are 3 revolutionary virtues: 1. Patience. 2. Patience. 3.
Patience.
2. (roughly, from memory) The sight of petty bourgeiois youth driven
to a frenzy by the horrors of imperialism is all
louis,
so, you're going to send this puffball little recommendation for moby's new
cd to the list (moby? did i read you right? with that soporific cheezball
mirthful-dirge-cum-moog "everything is wrong" crap? the guy who peddles his
meat-bad-jesus-good politics for warner brothers? ... ), and
Since I wrote "the book" on these questions, my position has been
evolving. Here is how I see it now. There are at least three general
"modern" value systems (modern in the sense that they do not rely on
local traditions for validation), personal utility/well-being, social
justice, and
Comments are after selected passages:
Brad De Long wrote:
The underlying assumptions in this discourse make no sense to me. I
made a number
of comments re Brad's stuff but there was no response.
Just a few random notes.
1) What is utility?
2) Is utility measurable
Let me see if Alan Krueger has written it down anywhere. I've heard
him say it three times (once attributing it to David Card)...
Brad DeLong
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
"Now 'in the long run' this [way of summarizing the quantity theory
of money] is
Here is my first review from Amazon for my new book, The Natural
Instability of Markets..
A reader from Harvard University , June 23, 1999
This Book is nothing more than anecdotal
nonsense!!!
This book was easy to read and kept me reading for a
New at Foreign Policy in Focus
Military Industrial Complex Revisited: How Weapons Makers
are Shaping U.S. Foreign and Military Policies
By William D. Hartung
As a result of a rash of military-industry mergers encouraged and
subsidized by the Clinton administration, the "Big Three" weapons
Comments are after selected passages:
Brad De Long wrote:
The underlying assumptions in this discourse make no sense to me. I
made a number
of comments re Brad's stuff but there was no response.
Just a few random notes.
1) What is utility?
2) Is utility measurable in
Since I wrote "the book" on these questions, my position has been
evolving. Here is how I see it now. There are at least three general
"modern" value systems (modern in the sense that they do not rely on
local traditions for validation), personal utility/well-being, social
justice, and
Brad De Long wrote:
Brad DeLong, looking for an on-line copy of Yao Wen-yuan's review of "Hai Jui
Dismissed from
Office."
I know exactly why he is looking for it.
To be accurate, it was an editorial in the Shanghai newspaper, Wen-hui Pao, November
10, 1965, written by
Yao Wen-yuan,
Doug:
in particular is nuts, as is their antifeminism. Still, the editor
that asked me to write the piece, James Heartfield, is a very smart
guy, even when he's wrong.
Breathtaking. This is an outfit that just doesn't have "wrong" ideas. They
worked to defeat the most powerful miners strike in
1) LM Magazine published Ron Arnold, shortly after Doug Henwood connected
them with him:
The Unabomber took his cue from the anti-technology rants of the US
environmental lobby, suggests RON ARNOLD
A darker shade of green
It was over before it began. At the last minute, Theodore Kaczynski
Rod Hay writes: And although I said that there was truth content in
neoclassical economics. It is not all true (or I wouldn't be here). It is
also useful. A good part of what passes for economics is politics dressed
up in economic jargon. It pushes the economic agenda of a particular group.
michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/29/99 12:35PM
If I were to happen on to pen-l accidently and see a list filled with
such a thread, I certainly would not subscribe. People like Henry or
Charles have too much to contribute to waste their time in repeating
such things.
((
Henry C.K. Liu wrote:
It seems to me that you recently revived the racism thread yourself when it
wa dying down.
You may well be right. When I returned I had an enormous mass of e-mail and had
a poor idea of the flow. I was disgusted with the type of dialogue that I saw.
I understand your
On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Louis Proyect wrote:
Look, Doug. Let's cut the shit. You and I have nothing to talk about. You
are writing "critiques" of the Marxist left for the same rightwing
libertarian cult that publishes Ron Arnold, leader of the wise-use
movement. This is the same Ron Arnold that
Second, the old comparison of France and England: England where
peasants lost rights to land early and had no early incentive to
restrict fertility, and thus saw a rapidly-growing rural population
that was pushed out of the countryside into the cities where it
became the reserve army
-Original Message-
From: DOUG ORR [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 11:39 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:8524] Re: David Colander
Jim Craven wrote:
Dave's work is very deep and somewhat molelike. As an editor and final
technical reviewer on Colander's
And over the past couple of years I've gotten to know a few of the
younger Marxist cult stud scholars, the kinds of people you Eric
Alterman like to make fun of. Most of them are serious people who do
real political work - prisons, labor organizing, antiwar. So who are
all these frivolous,
Second, the old comparison of France and England: England where
peasants lost rights to land early and had no early incentive to
restrict fertility, and thus saw a rapidly-growing rural population
that was pushed out of the countryside into the cities where it
became the reserve army
The underlying assumptions in this discourse make no sense to me. I made a number
of comments re Brad's stuff but there was no response.
Just a few random notes.
1) What is utility?
2) Is utility measurable in cardinal terms?
3) Are interpersonal comparisons of utility
Louis Proyect wrote:
quoth Doug, from LBO #90, which I received today:
One of the depressing things about this war [against Serbia] is all the
side-taking that's been going on.
Well, of course Doug would write something like this. He is a journalist
above the fray.
And where are you, on the
Jim Craven wrote:
Dave's work is very deep and somewhat molelike. As an editor and final
technical reviewer on Colander's Economics 3rd Ed., I had many exchanges
with Dave on incorporating non-linear dynamics, the spread of ideas and
institutional resistance to development/critique of theory, the
The title of this thread is great ambiguity.
Moving the third exclaimation mark would be progressive.
Yes, Stop! Stop! Stop Racism!
The following is taken from another list on the history of war:
From: "Sandler, Stanley DR" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:29:38 -0400
On 25
Michael,
It seems to me that you recently revived the racism thread yourself when it
wa dying down.
Charles had moved the thread to another list.
But even now on Pen-l, Charles and I are debating the issue of Mao in a
historical context with DeLong, and Brad DeLong's one racist act has become
There's a Brecht Forum book party tonight on "Democracy in Cuba"
cosponsored by the CofC. I'll try to get down there and report back. Here's
a review on amazon.com:
"Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections"
by Arnold August
A first-hand account of Cuba's experience with democracy.
Louis writes: Unless we're talking about the dark days of Soviet
Stalinism, most non-capitalist societies have tremendous amounts of control
from the bottom. Randy Martin, an editor at Social Text, comments that Cuba
has had more significant policy changes over the past 20 years than the US
has
Michael Keany:
I wouldn't describe Dewey as timid in outlook. Of course, the implication
here is that timid equates to a basic acceptance of the social relations of
production prevalent in his time, and our own. I don't believe this to be an
accurate portrayal of Dewey's position, most especially
Now we can add a "Heritage Foundation test" to the "Sachs" test for NGOs.
June 29, 1999
HOW CONGRESS SHOULD RELIEVE
POOR-COUNTRY DEBT
BRETT D. SCHAEFER AND DENISE H. FRONING
http://www.heritage.org/library/backgrounder/bg1300.html
Louis Proyect wrote:
Nietzschean ideology, channeled through pomos such as
Deleuze-Guattari, views the socialist project as one of self-liberation.
Structural, economic tasks fade into the background. When all is said and
done, the post-Marxists really represent a highly sophisticated version
Howdy y'all
Please forgive me if I'm missing something, but a little clarification would
not go amiss. I have been following the discussions re Mao and Lin Biao et
al. I would like to know whether Charles and Henry believe that the present
government of China is at all representative of the kind
I want to stop this whole thread right now! It is repetitive. It is
personal.
Show me a way that we can get rid of racism and make the world a better
place -- fine. I do not agree with Brad's interpretation of Mao, but it
is not racism. Am I a Black Nationalist if I dislike Clinton's
Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/28/99 08:25PM
Yes, it seems something of an exaggeration to say Lin Biao was
saying that all are to think as one ABOUT EVERYTHING as, Brad sort
of implies.
No.
It is not an exaggeration.
Go reread your copy of the little red book:
Mao Zedong
Doug Henwood wrote:
This is utter crap, Henry. I never tried to stop discussion of race
on lbo-talk; the only thing I wanted to stop was the trading of
personal insults. When I asked you and your interlocutors to stop
insulting each other, you took this as an affront to your dignity and
It depends what issue the remaining 20% is focued on. If it includes you
right to live, he is your enemy.
How are you, Doug?
Henry C.K. Liu
Doug Henwood wrote:
Brad De Long wrote:
... and is likely to remain racist for a long time to come--unless
America's left can unify and organize...
It makes a fella proud to be an Amurrican. The US and its IMF and World
Bank push free trade onto the world, but at the same time threatens protect
its sheep ranchers. (Of course, the generally depressed world economy, not
the competition from Oz and elsewhere, is the problem, as it is for most
Wojtek,
This is a bit of a muddle. Ormerod was an accomplished econometric
modeler in Britain. Built up a business around it, then sold it for
big bucks, so he knows what he's talking about, but you tripped up
in a few places.
His argument can be summarized as follows:
Prediction in
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:59:34 -0700
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:8423] Re: Re: MR "debate" on Brenner
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Just because you seem to have personal animosity towards Comninel (and
On Mon, 28 Jun 1999, Rod Hay wrote:
RH: But individuals exist and they do sometimes act selfishly (in fact in
capitalism selfish activity is strongly encouraged. The social relations of
production would not make any sense if there is not something to relate.
I.e., how do individual
At least Stern and Imus, unlike DeLong and Max, are honest and out front, and
they don't hide behind the love for freedom and democracy and independence of
mind. Read any of Kennedy's campaign speech, its not much different than the
Lin Biao preface
Henry C.K. Liu
I don't see the
G'day Brad,
You write:
... and is likely to remain racist for a long time to come--unless
America's left can unify and organize...
And woebetide anyone who's depending on that for some justice and welfare,
eh?
These lists have added to my knowledge, maybe even my wisdom, to a sudden
and
Tom Walker wrote:
Case in point: I've asked the question three times "how does one
'adjust appropriately' for the disutility of work?"
I don't know. I do have two observations.
First, output per worker--as measured by national income
accountants--in the U.S. south fell by about a quarter
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