that by adding back additional
hydrogen pressure. So far that has not been done, so we all await
patiently.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Feb 10, 2013 10:17 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
My
that by adding back additional
hydrogen pressure. So far that has not been done, so we all await
patiently.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Feb 10, 2013 10:17 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
My
-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:52 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:07 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
The questions that are being asked are important
vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Feb 10, 2013 10:17 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
My questions, concerns and speculations about method arise because I
find it baffling
that your estimate and MFMP team's estimate of excess Power can be so different.
Harry
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:56 PM, David
Why not doing both? You refer to true positives, that is, a signal actually
being measured. So, why not a false negative, that is, something that
should be there but it isn't.
2013/2/6 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
If it does not show up, how could it be measured? [image: :-)]
--
Daniel
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
I realize that you were just using the sine wave process as an example. I
pointed out that the time period spanned by the data is important to help
catch issues of this nature. I acknowledge that it is possible for a very
long delayed effect to come
, 2013 5:53 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
Why not doing both? You refer to true positives, that is, a signal actually
being measured. So, why not a false negative, that is, something that should be
there but it isn't.
2013/2/6 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
If it does not show
No, what I mean is that you could try to make a dummy, a fake data and
input that into the program and see if you can hide a positive, dummy,
signal.
2013/2/7 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
If you are suggesting that there should be LENR activity and thus a
reading of zero excess power is
I am positive that two equal and opposite dummy signals would cancel each other
out. Is that what you mean?
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 10:37 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
test
- Original Message -
From: David Roberson
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
I wish I knew how to answer this line of inquiry. If you are suggesting that
there should be LENR activity and thus
Seems to me like they could do something like that with a calibration run.
Heat with the inactive wire, then put 10watts through the active wire. It
should then show up as 10W excess if they leave that power input out of the
calculation. Just to demonstrate that the method is working
@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 10:37 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
No, what I mean is that you could try to make a dummy, a fake data
and input that into the program and see if you can hide a positive,
dummy, signal.
2013/2/7 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
If you are suggesting
Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote:
Seems to me like they could do something like that with a calibration run.
Heat with the inactive wire, then put 10watts through the active wire. It
should then show up as 10W excess if they leave that power input out of the
calculation.
That's what
Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
The ONLY way a calorimeter can be tested is to use it without any source
of excess energy being present. That means you need to run the calorimeter
in the planned way with the Celani wire replaced by an inert wire of the
same resistance.
And,
: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
Seems to me like they could do something like that with a calibration run.
Heat with the inactive wire, then put 10watts through the active wire. It
should then show up as 10W excess if they leave that power input out of the
calculation. Just to demonstrate
vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 10:55 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
David,
I have not been following your evaluation closely, but I have done a lot of
calorimetry in my life. The ONLY way a calorimeter can be tested is to use
It should be added that a stainless steel wire may not be inert.
Depending on the alloy, the wire can contain substantial nickel content -
and also molybdenum - which is the best Mills' catalyst (in terms of most
exact Rydberg fit).
As to what kind of wire (of moderately high resistance
That is a good idea. It would show whether a particular method
analsysis can reveal or mask a positive signal.
Harry
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote:
Seems to me like they could do something like that with a calibration run.
Heat with the inactive wire, then
...@ix.netcom.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 10:55 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
David,
I have not been following your evaluation closely, but I have done a
lot of calorimetry in my life. The ONLY way a calorimeter can
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote:
Seems to me like they could do something like that with a calibration run.
Heat with the inactive wire, then put 10watts through the active wire. It
should then show up as 10W excess
Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 10:55 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
David,
I have not been following your evaluation closely, but I have done a lot of
calorimetry in my life. The ONLY way a calorimeter can be tested is to use
it without any source of excess energy
, 2013 10:55 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
David,
I have not been following your evaluation closely, but I have done a lot of
calorimetry in my life. The ONLY way a calorimeter can be tested is to use
it without any source of excess energy being present. That means you need to
run
experience for all of us. Experimental science is a form of
bondage! Does it ever get better?
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:55 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:01 AM
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
I reluctantly have to agree with you. I would love to have that run as a
reference, but just the taking apart of the unit to reinstall a new wire,
or any changes whatsoever mess up the calibration.
This happens to some extent with most calorimeters.
And of course we might find that magnetic interaction causes unusual behavior.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:15 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
I should add that pure ironitself can
: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
I reluctantly have to agree with you. I would love to have that run as a
reference, but just the taking apart of the unit to reinstall a new wire, or
any changes whatsoever mess up the calibration.
This happens to some
-
From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 10:37 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
No, what I mean is that you could try to make a dummy, a fake data and
input that into the program and see if you can hide a positive, dummy
conclusion and then give em hell if you are
still dissatisfied.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
Its hard to understand how anyone seriously interested in doing
and then give em hell if you
are still dissatisfied.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
Its hard to understand how anyone seriously interested in doing
would
cancel each other out. Is that what you mean?
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 10:37 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
No, what I mean is that you could try to make a dummy, a fake
James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:
Why are best calorimetric practices not so firmly established by now that
virtually everyone with any degree of credibility agrees?
To some extent it is because no single calorimeter type works for every
kind of experiment. You have to look at the
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 10:37 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
No, what I mean is that you could try
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
Awkshully - there could a small bit of justified finger-pointing - but
not towards MFMP - towards Celani himself.
If it turns out to be wrong, he has been sloppy. In Korea, McKubre and
others said they thought his calorimetry was totally inadequate.
To
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:07 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
The questions that are being asked are important and the MFMP guys are
working very hard to answer them. A number of additional measures have been
taken at various times to root out unusual behavior and to improve the
Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
This is a learning experience for all of us. Experimental science is a
form
of bondage! Does it ever get better?
Dave
Doesn't SM include blindfolds? ;-)
Hence the Double Blind experiment, beloved of biologists. They also get off
on torturing
operates to achieve
that result.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:52 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:07 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote
that expectation, but I do not
modify the way the program operates to achieve that result.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:52 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:07
I just completed a long time frame program test run for the recent downloaded
data for one of the Celani cells. I am using the time domain curve fit program
that I developed recently that uses the solution for a non linear differential
equation describing the behavior of these types of cells.
How can you tell whether these are falso positives and not false negatives?
2013/2/6 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
I just completed a long time frame program test run for the recent
downloaded data for one of the Celani cells. I am using the time domain
curve fit program that I
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:
How can you tell whether these are falso positives and not false negatives?
0.2 to 0.6 W with this system is zero. Not positive or negative. That is
within the noise.
As I said before, no instrument can produce exactly zero.
- Jed
That was not my question. I want to know if he is also fitting excess heat
with his curve and thus giving false negatives.
2013/2/6 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:
How can you tell whether these are falso positives and not false negatives?
0.2
Suppose someone asks you to calculate the area under y = sin(x) over
one wavelength?
Since half the curve is above the x -axis and half the curve is below
the x-axis you might calculate the net area as zero, but that would be
false null result.
harry
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Jed Rothwell
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:
That was not my question. I want to know if he is also fitting excess heat
with his curve and thus giving false negatives.
I am saying I think it is just a slight instrument bias.
Anyway, even if it is 0.6 W positive, that is not significant.
- Jed
I guess you did not understand the question or I don't know how to express
myself well. Either way, let's wait to see the flow calorimetry.
2013/2/6 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:
That was not my question. I want to know if he is also fitting
Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Feb 6, 2013 1:55 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
That was not my question. I want to know if he is also fitting excess heat with
his curve and thus giving false negatives.
2013/2/6 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
Daniel Rocha danieldi
What if excess heat a slow igniting process with very soft variations? And
where higher order correction are important but they are distilled by
hours?
Say, the effect of excess power follows a slow accumulation of some
potential with the subsequen slow release of this potential?
2013/2/6 David
skeptic.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Feb 6, 2013 2:35 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
Suppose someone asks you to calculate the area under y = sin(x) over
one wavelength?
Since half the curve is above
: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
I guess you did not understand the question or I don't know how to express
myself well. Either way, let's wait to see the flow calorimetry.
2013/2/6 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:
That was not my question. I want
...@gmail.com
To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Feb 6, 2013 2:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
I guess you did not understand the question or I don't know how to
express myself well. Either way, let's wait to see the flow calorimetry.
2013/2/6 Jed Rothwell jedrothw
, 2013 2:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
I guess you did not understand the question or I don't know how to
express myself well. Either way, let's wait to see the flow calorimetry.
2013/2/6 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote
, Feb 6, 2013 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
What if excess heat a slow igniting process with very soft variations? And
where higher order correction are important but they are distilled by hours?
Say, the effect of excess power follows a slow accumulation of some potential
Can't you simulate a few types of dummy systems with extra heat where the
extra heat would not show?
2013/2/6 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
That is what should be showing up as time progresses. If the calibration
values are determined by the faster acting phenomena, then a set of values
effects or long term effects depending upon my expectations.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Feb 6, 2013 3:36 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
Can't you simulate a few types of dummy systems
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:57 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
You mention one of the situations that I have a bit of concern about. The
curve fit is achieved by using the internal curve fitting routine of Excel
in its X-Y chart menu. I am fortunate that it is a quadratic equation
not make a very good skeptic. [image: ;-)]
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Feb 6, 2013 2:35 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
Suppose someone asks you to calculate the area under y = sin(x) over
one
, 2013 12:07 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:57 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
You mention one of the situations that I have a bit of concern about. The
curve fit is achieved by using the internal curve fitting routine of Excel in
its X-Y chart menu
...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:49 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MFMP Null Result
The area in sine wave example was not intended to represent any particular
physical variables. It was just intended as metaphor to show that the
conclusions one draws from data
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