Re: [Vo]:Re: magnetism heat and dimensions--

[Che]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 6:18 PM Jürg Wyttenbach  wrote:

> Particle physics has originally been based on the rigid mass operator.
> Unkluckily only a few physicists understand master level rotating mass
> mechanics as this is a field used/covered by mechanical engineering.
>
> Why physics did use the fringe Virial approach (square integrable
> functions..) is an enigma. May be most were mathematicians bare of any
> physics understanding.
>
> The solutions of the rigid mass operator problems are torus surfaces! It
> is thus no surprise that all particles can be modeled by  higher order
> tori! Of course we do not need any fantasy numbers or point masses...
>
>
> J.W.
>
Is it your claim that mass is a function of the inertia of spinning energy
-- here, in some toroidal form..?

-- grok.





>
> On 27.06.2020 23:59, H LV wrote:
>
> I am not sure if this is related but I always had a problem with the
> concept of a point mass or a point charge, since mathematically that would
> imply infinite mass density or charge density or alternatively zero mass
> and zero charge. However these conundrums are resolved mathematically by
> moving from the real number system to the hyperreal number system first
> formulated by Abraham Robinson in the early 1960s. The hyperreal number
> system extends the real number system by including  infinitely small
> numbers and infinitely large numbers and gives a logical foundation for the
> calculus of infinitesimals known as "non-standard analysis". Today  most
> physicists and students still learn calculus  using "standard analysis"
> which is based on the notion of limits and was developed by mathematicians
> in the 19th century.
>
> An interesting property of infinitesimals is that they come in different
> sizes. For example if  ε   is an infinitesimal then  ε  < 2 ε  < 3ε
>  ...etc.
> The reciprocal of an infinitesimal number is an infinite number, so there
> are also different size infinities. For example 1/ε  > 1/2ε > 1/3ε
> ...etc.
>
> Harry
>
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:35 PM Jürg Wyttenbach  wrote:
>
>> The fantasy of the old SM guard always seemed to be limitless...
>>
>> SO(4) physics exactly explains how the claimed force "gravity" is
>> generated and mediated between hadronic masses.
>>
>> Since about 1 year there is game over for SM. No more cheating with point
>> particles that do not behave as points because these points have a magnetic
>> moment. No more cheating with massless charge as such an assumption simply
>> is a form of infantile dementia if no proof is given why a massless charge
>> does move without inertia and no force is need for a circular orbit. Most
>> idiotic is the assumption charge is wave as the magnetic moment then would
>> oscillate. We can go on with this as you only need college level
>> understanding to find out that the foundation of SM is children logic.
>>
>>
>> J.W.
>> On 26.06.2020 20:20, bobcook39...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-cartoon-picture-of-magnets-that-has-transformed-science-20200624/
>>
>>
>>
>> some INTERESTING OBSERVATIONS….
>>
>>
>>
>> Loss of the directional control of angular momentum in nuclei  is
>> probably is associated with the creation of unstable nuclear  conditions
>> and isotopic transitions.  It  may also  change gravity
>>
>> Of a group of nuclear magnetic dipoles, if the TOTAO magnetic dipole
>> attraction is modified—either increases or reduced?  *This question   stems
>> from the CONJECTURE that gravity results from an *random* collection of
>> nuclear magnetic dipoles  and the respective 0  (zero) net angular
>> momentum.
>>
>>
>>
>> The calculation of an attractive magnetic field at large distances
>> between randomly oriented groups of magnetic dipoles  supports the
>> CONJECTURE  noted above IMHO.
>>
>>
>>
>> *http://downloads.hindawi.com/archive/1998/079537.pdf
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>> A better reference would be nice.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob Cook
>>
>> --
>> Jürg Wyttenbach
>> Bifangstr. 22
>> 8910 Affoltern am Albis
>>
>> +41 44 760 14 18
>> +41 79 246 36 06
>>
>> --
> Jürg Wyttenbach
> Bifangstr. 22
> 8910 Affoltern am Albis
>
> +41 44 760 14 18
> +41 79 246 36 06
>
>

Re: [Vo]:anyone know this guy

[Che]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 9:54 PM Terry Blanton  wrote:

> Quite eclectic.  Exited 18 yrs ago.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_C._Sutton
>


I heard this recurrent anti-communist message just literally yesterday.
It's regular John Bircher, et al. propaganda.

-- grok.




>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 9:44 PM Frank Znidarsic 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Fusion-Secret-Energy-Revolution-ebook/dp/B01EK2KT7W/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_img_1?_encoding=UTF8=1=SD3YKFP6FATDTSC7TK0S
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Quantum Non-locality

[Che]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 3:30 PM ROGER ANDERTON 
wrote:

> >>it might be preferable to accept them as each true within their
> respective domains<<
>
> When "they" talk of those "domains" - there is a lot of handwaving;
> general relativity is often said to breakdown at the singularity, and
> quantum mechanics supposedly fails to be able to deal with gravity; but no
> maths for that is presented as to precisely when equations from such
> theories fail.
>

Isn't that 'divide-by-zero' issues..?








>
>
> On Monday, 8 June 2020, 20:03:09 BST, H LV  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 4:30 PM ROGER ANDERTON 
> wrote:
>
> >>Thoughts?<<
>
> there are problems combining relativity (especially general relativity)
> with quantum physics, so when people try to talk from things combining them
> then they are not on solid ground.
>
>
> I only mentioned SR because it is often wrongly invoked to dismiss any
> experiment needing simultaneity.
> On the issue reconciling the two domains of quantum mechanics and SR/GR,
> instead of trying to change one or the other or both, it might be
> preferable to accept them as each true within their respective domains and
> build a bridge between the domains by integrating them technologically
> instead trying to merge them into a single mathematical theory.
>
> Harry
>
>
>
>
> From my point-of-view relativity has been mistranslated and misunderstood
> so false claims are made about it. My latest video-I think it was mainly
> written by his wife.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 3 June 2020, 17:25:51 BST, H LV 
> wrote:
>
>
> Quantum Non-locality explained by Sabine Hossenfelder
> https://youtu.be/XL9wWeEmQvo
>
> I disagree with the conclusion that non-locality cannot be used to send an
> FLT message. What is overlooked is that an indeterminate state, i.e.
> unmeasured state is also a type of information.
>
> If the transmitter and the receiver have synchronised clocks (which is
> possible in SR) then the transmitter can send a message by a sequence of
> binary choices: either measure or not measure the particle's spin in the
> diagonal direction at a given time. What the receiver detects will be
> meaningfully informed by the sequence of the transmitter's choices.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Harry
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Off topic, or maybe not

[Che]

Plenty of people understand this.
Don't drink the Imperialist Kool-Aid, people. WWIII means the utter end of
a lot more than cold fusion research...



On Monday, January 6, 2020, Chris Zell  wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_for_Defense_of_Democracies
>
>
>
> Does Israel have ready-made lobbyist groups who are pushing for war and
who might create any false news or false flag to achieve that?
>
>
>
> From: Jones Beene 
> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2020 10:02 AM
> To: vortex 
> Subject: [Vo]:Off topic, or maybe not
>
>
>
> Does Iran already have all or part of the missing Russian nuclear arsenal
which went missing from Kazakhstan ?
>
>
>
> Does Iran Already Have Nuclear Weapons?
>
>
>
> 
>
> 
>
> Does Iran Already Have Nuclear Weapons?
>
> What if what you have been told over and over again is not really the
truth?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
2020: The Year Everything Comes Into Focus..

Re: [Vo]:Robots to replace writers.

[Che]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Rocha <danieldi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The point it is that, as far as I can notice here, there is no such
> notion. You are telling them stuff without explaining what you mean. You
> seem to be a lunatic or a fanatic for them.
>

What reformists and the pseudo-Left DO is PANDER to these sorts... who
remain essentially unchallenged in their 'comfort-zones'. And so you get
the usual ridiculous 'patriotic' bile out of them here, as everywhere else.
It is the FEAR of reformists and panderers that they are seen to be
'irrelevant' or 'wrong' or (gasp) 'not quite right in the head', that has
them feeding into this smug obtuseness.

However it is the POINT of Socialist class-struggle to NOT pander to either
agents OR followers of the hegemonic bourgeois order. In any way.

Hell; AFAIC, people like me will look like SAINTS compared to what the
likes of *you* counsel here, come the inevitable lurching financial
collapse (or World war) soon coming -- all the more-so, for those who will
now lose their jobs, cars, houses, families (and perhaps their minds as
well), as opposed to those who suffered a decade ago...





> You are talking about a game they don't know, you don't explain the rules
> at all, that is, how you reached such conclusions,  and you don't seem to
> notice that.
>

Not my fault -- NOT my problem. And so please stop second-guessing my
methods, OK? In spite of what you say above, you're in FACT, actually just
*encouraging* them to continue-on in their willful ignorance. You and I are
NOT on the same team, bub. So MYOB.






>
> 2017-10-13 20:27 GMT-03:00 Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com>:
>
>> No, that's just what people 'improving' marxism -- i.e. reformist
>> radicals (an oxymoron, no?) -- invariably call real marxists. You know:
>> those people who hold onto their quaint, old, obsolete, fervent beliefs in
>> things like historical-materialism, the Internationalist proletariat and
>> class-struggle...
>>
>> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>

Re: [Vo]:Robots to replace writers.

[Che]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Alain Sepeda 
wrote:

> it seems some histocical perspective is required to understand all is
> normal.
>
> Inflation is a recent phénomenon, and for example 19th century was veru
> deflationist.
>


What are you talking about. Inflation was an issue in even ancient times.
The spanish created a MAJOR financial crisis when the plundered the 'New
World' for silver and gold, in the 16th century. Capitalism is unstable,
*by its very nature*.


Read Marx ferkrissakes. Only smug, brainwashed fools don't.








> in fact it is not so important as purchase power get better because of
> cost reduction.
> This si what sharing economy, in fact the hidden capitalism of average and
> poor people, is doing reducing costs, making you richer with less money.
>
> http://www.libertylawsite.org/2017/09/29/how-the-sharing-
> economy-helps-the-middle-class-by-enlivening-capital/
>
> AI and robots are not more disruptive than horses were.
> I've heard of the luddite war in nepal agains donkeys, to keep employement
> of human donkey...
> rational becausein that traditional society there are obstacle to acquire
> capital for the lower caste.
>
> http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/
> capitalisms-assault-on-the-indian-caste-system
>
> not a surprise that communisme flourished in a locked society like Russia
> or China, in colonial zone like Indochina, in corrupted banana republic
> like Cuba, and not where it was created in Britain.
>
>
>
>
> 2017-10-13 20:15 GMT+02:00 Daniel Rocha :
>
>> Things are not so simple, as I see it. I don't see the actual China as
>> socialist or communist, nor I see them returning to a socialist path. This
>> will become clear later, though this is a very very rough explanation.
>> Things do not really get cheap because they are more abundantly produced
>> (now I am putting my point of view in this whole thing, which is not really
>> standard) because money (gold or precious metals) or value in circulation
>> (I am not counting credit/debt here) also decreases because labor employed
>> in industry (the source) decreases accordingly. So, there is less and less
>> money to expend, credit, instead, expands, and thus debt, because it just
>> cannot be payed. Sectors of economy become glut and bubbles are created.
>>
>> Pegging money to something of value is also not good. Eventually, it is
>> not enough to keep track of the quantity of things produced, so stagflation
>> happens. Just printing money is also not good, it leads to hyperinflation.
>> A socialist system, ideally, do not have such problems because money is
>> used as grants or as a mean of accounting. This is possible because there
>> is no accumulation of money in the hand of few. But, the world is not
>> ideal, simply because all countries need to trade and the world is nearly
>> all capitalist. So, what happens is that there is a need to accumulate
>> reserves, which generally leads to stagnation. Both USSR and USA suffered
>> from this problem starting in the 70s, but USA could alleviate the problem
>> with the Volker shock, that is, letting credit abound, multiplying
>> reserves. Not so much USSR, given its ideological compromise. Straying off
>> this path led to its doom. Many countries of East Europe acquired large
>> debts with IMF, which led them, in a way or another, to bankrupt. Look for
>> the total debt of countries (not just public only, money flows indent of
>> ownership)you will see that they all of them explode starting around 1980.
>> Soon, shit will hit the fan.
>>
>> China is different case though. It could save itself by crippling the
>> economic conditions on the countryside and making people start to cities,
>> where they could provide cheap work for industries. So, Chinese leadership
>> deliberately sabotaged the most basic epithets of socialism in order to
>> stay in power.  They have been trying to improve the conditions on the
>> countryside in the last few years, though, in order to avoid rebellions in
>> the city. Wages raised and so unemployment. The labor is not so cheap
>> anymore, it's getting close to Mexico, officially.
>>
>> There has been some attempt, though not conscious, in setting something
>> similar to precious metal. Crypt currencies somehow are equivalent to mine,
>> where value comes labor employed through maintenance of servers or that
>> employed in the electric system. But, the value it seems, I am not sure if
>> it is regulated by the market, unlike with precious metals. There is a
>> certain scarcity factor that is introduce to make mining more difficult, I
>> cannot, right now see this as really equivalent to a real mine running out.
>> In any case, fluctuations make it not suitable for the people in general to
>> trade. Like with precious metal, there should be some kind of "bank notes",
>> or some similar thing to avoid fluctuations.
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Robots to replace writers.

[Che]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Chris Zell <chrisz...@wetmtv.com> wrote:

> My background is libertarian but I now feel some form of communism could
> be in our future, by default.
>
>
>
> First, consider that deflationary factors could drive economies into
> permanent stimulus with scant regard for debts.  Even Bloomberg admits that
> the Bank of Japan may own a big chunk of their stock market already.  If
> they are forced into buying up stocks and bonds without end in order to
> avoid collapse, then we have a form of communism – if you consider things
> such as the Fed to be part of the government.
>
>
>
> Second,  suppose automation does give us mass production of quality goods
> at very low prices?  If scarcity has always been the obstacle in socialist
> systems, then this might overcome it.  Leaders in China may believe this to
> be true – and time will tell if they are correct.
>


Look: you're not QUALIFIED to define the term 'communism'. Simple as that.

Stop trying. You just look bad (at best).



However -- we DO know that NO new technology or research is going to be
funded by a bankrupt World Capitalist order: unless of course, it appears
to have 'Military significance'...


So no wonder so many of you here are so hostile to the anti-Militarists
amongst us: you are *eager* to get the *sure* funding which now accompanies
the buildup to what looks like an increasingly likely WWIII.






>
>
> *From:* Daniel Rocha [mailto:danieldi...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, October 13, 2017 5:57 AM
> *To:* John Milstone <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Robots to replace writers.
>
>
>
> I guess you are being ultra left here. The guy is showing will to learn
> and you are kind of snubbing him.
>
>
>
> 2017-10-13 3:29 GMT-03:00 Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
>
>
> This is just (yawn) one more fake 'post-marxist' analysis (of which there
> has been plenty: 'Post Modernism' being the exemplar of this genre).
> Dismissing the importance of those CENTRAL materialist concepts -- the
> Means and Mode of Production -- is a dead giveaway that this is just one
> more quasi-/pseudo-'scientific' analysis. With a suspect political-economic
> -- no doubt petit-bourgeois liberal -- agenda behind it, of course.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
>
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>

Re: [Vo]:Robots to replace writers.

[Che]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:03 PM, H LV  wrote:

> If you want to change society you have to work with people as they are,
> not as you wish they were.
>
>
> Harry
>


Says a man who's clearly never been in any leadership position of any kind;
let alone who understands the way the Universe *actually* works, on a
Human, social, societal level...



Yours is the eternal excuse of reformists and opportunists and defeatists.

Re: [Vo]:Robots to replace writers.

[Che]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:25 AM, H LV  wrote:

> Pure Marxism is a materialist religion and not a science.
>
> harry
>


It never ceases to amaze me how (otherwise fairly intelligent) people can
maintain these long-term internal states of cognitive dissonance. The
wunnerful effects of ceaseless propaganda and indoctrination on the young,
plastic mind no..?


In any case: there is NO maniacal, dangerous cultish religion bigger than
the fervent -- vulgar -- belief in some hallowe'ed, all-seeing,
all-knowing, omnipotent, omniscient 'Free Market'.
LOL

Re: [Vo]:Robots to replace writers.

[Che]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:57 AM, Daniel Rocha <danieldi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I guess you are being ultra left here. The guy is showing will to learn
> and you are kind of snubbing him.
>

No, that's just what people 'improving' marxism -- i.e. reformist radicals
(an oxymoron, no?) -- invariably call real marxists. You know: those people
who hold onto their quaint, old, obsolete, fervent beliefs in things like
historical-materialism, the Internationalist proletariat and
class-struggle...

 'Sectarian' is another common knee-jerk response.


In any case: Cold Fusion has a SOCIALIST future. NOT a Capitalist one.

No one does.






>
> 2017-10-13 3:29 GMT-03:00 Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>>
>> This is just (yawn) one more fake 'post-marxist' analysis (of which there
>> has been plenty: 'Post Modernism' being the exemplar of this genre).
>> Dismissing the importance of those CENTRAL materialist concepts -- the
>> Means and Mode of Production -- is a dead giveaway that this is just one
>> more quasi-/pseudo-'scientific' analysis. With a suspect political-economic
>> -- no doubt petit-bourgeois liberal -- agenda behind it, of course.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>

Re: [Vo]:Robots to replace writers.

[Che]

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:35 PM, H LV <hveeder...@gmail.com> wrote:

> ​The Precariat and Class Struggle By Guy Standing
>
> Abstract: The world economy is in the midst of a Global Transformation
> that is producing a new global class structure. A new mass class is
> emerging – the precariat – characterised by chronic uncertainty and
> insecurity. Although the precariat is still a class-in-the-making, divided
> within itself, its elements are united in rejecting old mainstream
> political traditions. To become a transformative class, however, the
> precariat needs to move beyond the primitive rebel stage manifested in 2011
> and become enough of a class-for-itself to be a power for change. This will
> involve a struggle for redistribution of the key assets needed for a good
> life in a good society in the twenty-first century –not the “means of
> production”, but socioeconomic security, control of time, quality space,
> knowledge (or education), financial knowledge and financial capital.​
>
> http://www.guystanding.com/files/documents/Precariat_and_
> Class_Struggle_final_English.pdf
>


This is just (yawn) one more fake 'post-marxist' analysis (of which there
has been plenty: 'Post Modernism' being the exemplar of this genre).
Dismissing the importance of those CENTRAL materialist concepts -- the
Means and Mode of Production -- is a dead giveaway that this is just one
more quasi-/pseudo-'scientific' analysis. With a suspect political-economic
-- no doubt petit-bourgeois liberal -- agenda behind it, of course.





>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:49 PM, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:06 AM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> https://thenextweb.com/contributors/2017/05/19/artificial-in
>>> telligence-will-impact-professional-writing/
>>>
>>> How Artificial Intelligence will impact professional writing
>>>
>>
>>
>> As I keep pointing out: such technological developments could only
>> constitute a 'crisis' in a society where every Human being is NOT
>> guaranteed a lifetime quality-of-life. And Capitalism -- being a system of
>> institutionalized *artificial* scarcity, benefiting ONLY a tiny,
>> self-interested elite -- IS that infernal society.
>>
>> Therefore we NEED and REQUIRE *Socialism* in order to advance as a
>> species.
>>
>> But as things stand -- the U.S. Imperialists are working overtime to
>> snuff us all, at the moment...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://nypost.com/2017/08/29/artificial-intelligence-is-writ
>>>> ing-the-next-game-of-thrones-book/
>>>>
>>>> Artificial intelligence is writing the next ‘Game of Thrones’ book
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Robots to replace writers.

[Che]

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:06 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> https://thenextweb.com/contributors/2017/05/19/
> artificial-intelligence-will-impact-professional-writing/
>
> How Artificial Intelligence will impact professional writing
>


As I keep pointing out: such technological developments could only
constitute a 'crisis' in a society where every Human being is NOT
guaranteed a lifetime quality-of-life. And Capitalism -- being a system of
institutionalized *artificial* scarcity, benefiting ONLY a tiny,
self-interested elite -- IS that infernal society.

Therefore we NEED and REQUIRE *Socialism* in order to advance as a species.

But as things stand -- the U.S. Imperialists are working overtime to snuff
us all, at the moment...








>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>> http://nypost.com/2017/08/29/artificial-intelligence-is-writ
>> ing-the-next-game-of-thrones-book/
>>
>> Artificial intelligence is writing the next ‘Game of Thrones’ book
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Robots Are Replacing Humans at All These Wall Street Firms

[Che]

Communists promise to free Humanity from the tyranny of the capitalist
abuse of technology 'for profit'. Those who chase after these
money-grubbing financier/rentier parasites for funding -- selling their
souls for the equivalent of a mess of potage in the process -- ARE
political-economic fools; even if they may also just happen to be
technological geniuses at the same time...


On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:26 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> http://fortune.com/2017/03/30/blackrock-robots-layoffs-
> artificial-intelligence-ai-hedge-fund/
>
> BlackRock isn't the only Wall Street investor laying off human
> stock-pickers and replacing them with robots.
>
> The world's biggest money manager on Tuesday announced that it would cut
> more than 40 jobs, replacing some of its human portfolio managers with
> artificially intelligent, computerized stock-trading algorithms.
>

Re: [Vo]:Have Cavitation Energy Systems stumbled on a novel formofLENR?

[Che]

Here's actual REAL, DOCUMENTED, VERIFIED *outrageously criminal* government
conspiracy, going on RIGHT NOW.

And PLEASE don't 'explain' to me that the USA is somehow 'different'.



On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:52 AM, JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> *From: *Brian Ahern 
>
>
>
> If you believe in MiB, then it is axiomatic that you believe in UFO
> conspiracies as well.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately this leaves you blind to scams by experts Rossi, Papp, Mills
> etc
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> Oh shucks, you mean to say the MIB aren’t reporting back to UFOs? Then
> they must be T-men G-men or what?
>
>
>
> LOL. I think Kellyanne nailed it… this is a case of “alternative facts”.
> We want our Kellyanne back!
>
>
>
> Wiki sez: reports of men in black represent experiences that "don’t seem
> to have occurred in the world of consensus reality"… they were quoting
> Jerome Clark, a county music song writer (therefore an expert on fabricated
> reality)… but seriously UFOs open the door to more than one reality – and
> given the dangerous notion of “majority rule” we could see MIB prerogatives
> written into an executive order – the future of BLM.
>
>
>
> To a few cynical scientists, this essentially means that there is indeed a
> “non consensus reality” (a huge fraction of the population which can become
> a majority in more than a few cases) where MIB/UFO/NWO/ and QuarkX exist as
> a figment of the imagination which is as real to that segment as the
> miracles of wine-to-water etc.
>
>
>
> Objective reality is such a bitch….
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Have Cavitation Energy Systems stumbled on a novel form ofLENR?

[Che]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 6:48 AM, Brian Ahern <ahern_br...@msn.com> wrote:

> If you believe in MiB, then it is axiomatic that you believe in UFO
> conspiracies as well.
>
>
> Unfortunately this leaves you blind to scams by experts Rossi, Papp, Mills
> and Mayer.
>

What a stupid thing to assert. NOT 'axiomatic'. Actually a NON SEQUITUR.

So who's blind here, eh?




>
>
> ------
> *From:* Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 25, 2017 10:17 PM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Have Cavitation Energy Systems stumbled on a novel
> form ofLENR?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:50 AM, Brian Ahern <ahern_br...@msn.com> wrote:
> >
> > LeClair hides behind the conspiracy curtain. "He can't do any demos or
> the Men in Black will get him."
>
>
> Whatever the truth of anything else being claimed here on this eList --
> the so-called 'MiB' are very, VERY, *VERY* real. Forget Hollywood.
>
> People who predictably scoff at the very real threat posed to regime
> opponents of all kinds, are themselves not to be taken seriously, hear..?
> Such as yourself clearly do not understand how REAL power is used in this
> World. 'OU' researchers are obviously (to non-fools) MOST definitely 'of
> interest' to Status Quo 'Concerns': who want to KEEP things that way...
> (Got it?) Regardless. Ruthlessly and MOST criminally, if necessary. VERY
> 'Mafia'... and today, **most clearly right up to the oligarchic U.S.
> President himself** (Gawd help us...). Take a GOOD look at that
> publicity-seeking buffoon: because _behind_ him are similar others who
> *avoid* the limelight he seeks. And for good reason. THEY wield this awful
> power over us, which frightens so many.
>
>
> So we should be kinder to these people; and maybe understand the perhaps
> *justified* paranoia of those now in possession of something *possibly just
> worth stealing*... or shutting them up about.
>
>
> (Sheesh. Why does this have to be spelled out to pompous fools who won't
> listen anyway...)
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Have Cavitation Energy Systems stumbled on a novel form ofLENR?

[Che]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:50 AM, Brian Ahern  wrote:
>
> LeClair hides behind the conspiracy curtain. "He can't do any demos or
the Men in Black will get him."


Whatever the truth of anything else being claimed here on this eList -- the
so-called 'MiB' are very, VERY, *VERY* real. Forget Hollywood.

People who predictably scoff at the very real threat posed to regime
opponents of all kinds, are themselves not to be taken seriously, hear..?
Such as yourself clearly do not understand how REAL power is used in this
World. 'OU' researchers are obviously (to non-fools) MOST definitely 'of
interest' to Status Quo 'Concerns': who want to KEEP things that way...
(Got it?) Regardless. Ruthlessly and MOST criminally, if necessary. VERY
'Mafia'... and today, **most clearly right up to the oligarchic U.S.
President himself** (Gawd help us...). Take a GOOD look at that
publicity-seeking buffoon: because _behind_ him are similar others who
*avoid* the limelight he seeks. And for good reason. THEY wield this awful
power over us, which frightens so many.


So we should be kinder to these people; and maybe understand the perhaps
*justified* paranoia of those now in possession of something *possibly just
worth stealing*... or shutting them up about.


(Sheesh. Why does this have to be spelled out to pompous fools who won't
listen anyway...)

Re: [Vo]:Burger robots to replace burger flippers

[Che]

I've already explained here that further capitalist technological
development -- including that of any 'OU' & 'Cold Fusion' discoveries -- is
incompatible with the democratic and healthy further development of Human
society (howevermuch capitalism, in the Past, freed Humanity from the
clutches of feudal and pre-feudal obscurantism and squalor). However, all I
really ever get in response on this e-list is the usual know-nothing,
knee-jerk anti-communist bilgewater... So of course, the actual logic of
capital accumulation remains essentially unexamined by most of you (as is
the intention of some, here); and this innate, scientifically-examinable,
historically-determined, social-economic development has remained a closed
book to most of you your ENTIRE lives: because you have uncritically
accepted a certain political-economic mental conditioning as being good,
honest coin. Which it AIN'T.

Short answer: the capitalist development of technology essentially ENSLAVES
the working-class: by its very logic, in its very essence. The
socialist/communist development of the EXACT SAME technology OTOH, will do
the EXACT OPPOSITE (once we are freed of World-wide capitalist sabotage):
it will in fact FREE Humanity, forever, from the clutches of class
exploitation.

QED


You want your 'Star Trek' Future..? Embrace Socialism -- or likely surely
die in the latest, up-coming periodic capitalist conflagration, which will
be called 'WWIII' (By somebody... Somewhere... Sometime... if not us.)







On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 2:09 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> https://techxplore.com/news/2017-09-burger-robots.html
>
> http://www.misorobotics.com/
>
> Might robots prove so cost efficient and reliable that restaurant
> employers replace a significant number of workers with these robots?
>

Re: [Vo]:Savannah, GA evacuated

[Che]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 8:50 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> News item:
>
> "Mandatory evacuation order issued for parts of Georgia
>
> Georgia Governor Nathan Deal just ordered a mandatory evacuation for the
> area east of I-95 in Georgia. This includes the city of Savannah.
>
> In addition, Deal ordered mandatory evacuations for Chatham County, and
> some other low-lying areas."
>
>
> This seems like an over-reaction to me. Evacuating Miami, FL I can see. By
> the time the storm reaches Savannah, I expect it will be reduced in force.
>
> Offshore islands in the Carolinas are being evacuated. I see the need for
> that. Those places seem like they are 6' above sea level.
>
> - Jed
>
>

OT, sure. Point is: hysteria-mongering is how governments control the mass
of the population. Just like with Cold Fusion: the LAST thing an
Establishment wants is actual, measured debate... and an all-round coming
to an enlightened understanding of a situation or process.

You can't control self-aware, motivated, determined people. Not even with
guns.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi building a commercial reactor

[Che]

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Adrian Ashfield 
wrote:

>
>
Thanks to Frank Acland for eliciting this information.
> http://e-catworld.com/2017/09/04/rossi-first-e-cat-plants-
> under-construction-will-sell-energy-not-plants/




> We learn now that these first plants will sell heat — he won’t be selling
the plants themselves.
>
> In the near term that could make business sense, as it gives Leonardo a
chance to monitor the performance of these
> first plants closely (essentially they will be prototypes), learn how the
plants perform in real world situations, make
> adjustments as needed, while also preventing outside access to the E-Cat
reactors which is the critical IP — at the
> same time making money from selling heat directly to customers.

Which should have been the simple business plan all along.

And at a most modest scale. This is no doubt [grandiose] 'industrial-scale'
from the get-go.

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Che]

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 7:22 PM, JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> Speculation – Given that palladium works far better in electrolysis when
> alloyed with silver and given that nickel in this case only works with a
> thin coating of palladium, then an area of improvement (for the fine
> results already presented in the several hundred watt range) would be to
> coat the nickel mesh with both silver and palladium or do the rubbing with
> the alloy – not the pure Pd.
>


What is the theorizing behind this metallic synergy..? Is this, say, some
fine-tuning of the Fermi electron energy bands or something -- in resonance
with the requirements for cold fusion reactions..?

Re: [Vo]:LENR as a superconductor

[Che]

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> See how quantum mechanics can generate this Bose condensate that can form
at 3000K here.
>
> https://arxiv.org/abs/1509.05264


If true -- I have understood nothing essential about Reality.
:P

Re: [Vo]:Large list of Rossi Patents -- Exhibit 29

[Che]

What do some people see with that LONG, long list of patent applications..?
Why... someone _clearly_ out to make a buck.

Which (reasonably) appears to be Rossi's overarching, main -- and perhaps
only -- goal.






On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:

> The Wright brothers were in a similar position for about 5 years after
> they were the first to fly.  Were they scam artists?   They sure as
> hell were accused of being such.   Their only stipulation for
> demonstrating flight was that, once they did so, the observer would be
> buying airplanes from them.   Sounds pretty reasonable today, doesn't
> it?
>
> But they had no takers until 1908.   Then they did their 2 famous
> demos to people willing to pay and all of a sudden their patents were
> flying through the patent office, the press was favorable, they
> weren't scam artists any more, the whole drill.
>
> Let's say for purposes of argument that Rossi decides to give a demo
> that answers his critics.   He invites you, Jed, the Amazing Randi,
> and one other known critic to test his black box with your own tools.
>  You just can't open the box.   Would you do it?   Then let's say the
> demo really catches on, Rossi gets as famous as the Wrights would
> these patent applications be viewed in the same light as how you are
> presenting them right now?   Nope.   They would sail through the
> patent office with flying colors.
>
> On 8/10/17, JonesBeene  wrote:
> > That long list is a little deceiving. For instance, Rossi has only the
> > single granted patent and it is for a heat transfer device.
> >
> > That one is US 9115913b1 and it appears not to be cited … which is ironic
> > for such a long listing since it is the only document that would  give
> any
> > legal protection.
> >
> > Many of the applications are revisions leading up to the single granted
> > patent, which patent experts have said is notable for its cartoon-like,
> > substandard drawings. It’s a joke, really.
> >
> > If offered either an overpriced Café Latte at Starbucks or all of
> Rossi’s IP
> > – go with the coffee. There is a bit of free energy there.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Kevin O'Malley
> >
> > Exhibit 29 is a large list of mostly unpublished patent applications by
> > Rossi. The titles might be interesting to some
> > and probably deserve a dedicated thread.
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/drive…Ktdce19-wyb1RxOTF6c2NtZkk
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Why Rossi 'won'

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 2:39 AM, Alain Sepeda 
wrote:

> This is a key point to rule out the theories of Rossi's defenders.
> If IH was sincere, and enthusiastic as it is clear, this remove the
> theories that they tried to fake a negative result. What was fake was the
> methods, like in Lugano.
>
> Even if you swallow the theories that it works, the way the test was
> conducted would have been manipulated to deter the investor, and defraud
> him of his intellectuel property.
> As Rossi said about the way he pretend to have deterred a Swedish team, it
> would be a "magnificence". I don't swallow that theory, but even if true,
> it is even more disgusting.
>
> I have been fooled, and the skeptic can play it easy to say we were warned
> by past results and never coming serious test. I don't regret as it was to
> verify, but we have the verification, BASTA!
>
> only thing more painful than to be fooled is to be attacked when you face
> reality, by more fooled than me, and by friends and respected people, among.
>
> LENR is a fractal tragedy. a fractal fiasco.
> Some LENR supporters are not more scientific and realist than Huizenga or
> Parks.
>
> It have to stop.
>
> as you can read elsewhere I see the only exit in making PdD research with
> modern instrumentation as used in accumulator technology research.
> This is my model for what woudl be a good LENR research:
> https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14020
>
> I have few doubt we can move to NiH for industrial applications, and I
> even hope we can move to biological LENR, graphene, or many metal alloys,
> but first need to to have a theory, and my sad opinion is we need to
> temporarily throw out theorists and physicists, until there is much data
> they can work on. Urgency is for chemists and nanoscience experts.
>

Let me re-phrase what you wrote, so others are clear on what you are
actually saying here (please do correct me if I'm off the mark):
(However, don't object to my re-phrasing you below, if it's simply the case
that you did not understand the implications of your own statements...)

* Proprietary, secretive Science is not really proper science, per se --
because it is not open and reproducible.
  (At best, opening up your results YEARS later ONLY after having attempted
commercializing them, can be seen as being pretty cruddy, third-rate
'Science' praxis.)

* ALL *real* Science is OPEN and PUBLIC -- and therefore open to
_immediate_ attempts at reproducibility.
   Because that's what REAL Science -- and the Scientific Method -- *is*.









>
>
> 2017-07-28 1:09 GMT+02:00 Eric Walker :
>
>>
>>
>> There is further corroborating evidence to suggest that IH were sincere,
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Why Rossi 'won'

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 7:21 AM, Lennart Thornros <lenn...@thornros.com>
wrote:

> I agree with Bob.
> It has been a lot of name calling here on Vortex during the last year.
> Especially AR has been given very demeaing epithets.
> I still don't know how well his invention works. I know he is a true
> entrepreneur. He believes in his ideas. One overwhelming proof is that he
> settled for just freedom from poor bed fellows to persuade the ideas. He
> could have retired before filing and had enough for the rest of his life.
> Che could learn about benefits in free society isn't always driven by
> Money.
>

The United States is a corporatist police-state Empire. Not a democracy.
Elections are orchestrated. A mere simulacrum.
But we will find this all out in all certainty, soon enuff, as things
continue to fall apart at an accelerating rate.

There is not even a basic agreement on political-economic Reality here on
vortex-L -- let alone the reality of what 'Cold Fusion' is.
However, the corporations AND State DO have a VERY direct effect on cold
fusion research -- as we all should admit, if we haven't already done so.
And so bringing up the political aspects of all this is NOT gratuitous in
the least. To deny it is to demonstrate one's own (reactionary) agenda of
denial.

The ECCO should go on the likes of 'Patreon', AFAIC.
Couldn't hurt (other than the usual unavoidable slander campaigns). Could
do a lot of good, actually.








> Jed could learn that things get done without government is involved and
> that unortodox methods  can be used.
> I hope his invention has a great value.
> Lennart
>
> On Jul 26, 2017 21:22, "bobcook39...@hotmail.com" <
> bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> The folks on Vortex-l that in the past have suggested Rossi was a fraud
> etc must be busy eating crow based on the significant silence of their
> anti-Rossi claque.
>
>
>
> Bob Cook
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Friday, July 21, 2017 7:58 PM
> *To: *vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject: *[Vo]:Why Rossi 'won'
>
>
>
>
>
> This has likely already been pointed out here -- but I'll point it out now
> (again), if it hasn't.
>
>
>
>
>
> Here’s The Settlement—Getting The License Back Was Rossi’s Top Priority
> <https://animpossibleinvention.com/2017/07/18/heres-the-settlement-getting-the-license-back-was-rossis-top-priority/>
>
>
>
>
>
> The bottom line appears to be that IH 'settled' -- because they simply
> could not *prove* fraud (which perhaps, never actually took place -- at
> least the way IH sees it). Simple as that. So they would have _lost_ the
> case if it had gone to trial -- and been liable for whatever _they_ would
> have been liable for.
>
>
>
> Rossi OTOH, strategically forewent the money he was 'owed': because he
> valued the IP over everything else -- and is smart enuff to know when to
> 'fold' and walk away.
>
>
>
>
>
> Is that it, or close enuff..?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:OT (really) - Re: How to filter messages

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Aldo Maggi <aldoma...@katamail.com> wrote:

> I apologize to use this list to answer "Che" but I do just because he
> wrote here instead than directly to me, obviously I know that the rules
> forbid it but I promise I will not do it any more.



Such endless hypocrisy.

I don't think you people grasp the historical nature of such as this
e-List. It IS a historical record -- and people in future WILL be judging
many of you (as far as that goes) for the exhibition of such narrow-minded,
short-term interests, pursued in solely for immediate, personal, grubby
gain. Much as the likes of Andrea Rossi have done.

DO NOT believe outside others will be seeing your posts as you yourselves
now see them. They WILL be far more objective than too many of you all are
being now.

These near-future 'historians' WILL also be far more knowledgeable about
the political-economic context of the World -- AND of the World-historic
import if the phenomenon of Cold Fusion. The slanted anti-communist bias of
some of you -- downright police-state in nature for some of you -- WILL be
seen for what it is, in the larger World context, come that time. Because
if Cold Fusion IS the Future -- then this e-List WILL have a larger future
historical importance than it has now.

Really. Some of you. Your posts will NOT age well.
Pfft.

Re: [Vo]:Why Rossi 'won'

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 9:55 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> Rossi is not as sure footed as he lets on. His small low temperature
> reactor cluster did not work at the start of the 1 year test. Rossi had to
> substitute the quad 250,000 watts tiger reactor cluster. To this day, Rossi
> still doesn't understand why those small low temperature reactors failed to
> function.
>
> Without understanding the underlying theory that underpins his technology,
> Rossi must use trial and error. Like a mouse in a maze each day can bring a
> wrong turn that can result in failure.  Yet Rossi projects a facade of
> confidence and defiance. This state of ever present insecurity must be
>  hard to conceal from his competitors, his supporters and especially his
> detractors.
>


Rossi's primary motive seems to literally be to get rich as quick as
possible. As you say above -- his modus operandi leaves much to be desired.
I only took an interest in this money-grubber when he was promising steam
gushing out of a container for pennies. It was the container and its
contents I hoped about -- not Rossi's Wall Street cred.

Frankly, I wish this little weasel would just disappear with the few
millions he did get his hands on -- and leave Science alone. If he DOES
finally 'make a better mousetrap' -- well, then so be it. But no thanks to
his secretive, proprietary anti-REAL-Science bullshit.

Re: [Vo]:Fission may be the best fit for future LENR

[Che]

Now they're invoking their gods... and the fact that we can't even _really_
tell if this guy below is *kidding* or not, speaks volumes about the state
of the USA and Science, today.

It also speaks somewhat about the state of this e-List.
In any case -- the troll who began this gratuitous
anti-communist/pro-Imperialist/corporate thread got all his wishes granted.

People are so easily led. And the _more_ so the more degrees they have, it
is said. Maybe Mary Yugo should come back, somewhere.




On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 1:26 PM, bobcook39...@hotmail.com <
bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> When you don’t have a solution, just give up.
>
>
>
> On the other hand maybe you should pray to God to find salvation for
yourself.   And, if you are patient,  a prescription for filtering claque
will be provided.
>
>
>
> Bob Cook

Re: How to filter messages - was Re: [Vo]:Fission may be the best fit for future LENR

[Che]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 5:31 PM, Aldo Maggi  wrote:

> Well, I use Linux Evolution and Claws-mail and not Windows Outlook, but
> I do not think that the system is different:
> write a filter adding the addresses of people whose mails you do not
> want to read (e.g.  comandantegri...@gmail.com ) and send them to a
> special Folder (e.g. Noisy_people)



And what does this make YOU then, Aldo..? No wonder you people are
marginalized generally, as a group... and support money-grubbing, secretive
cads like Rossi.

And don't compare my political persuasion to your situation, OK? We have
defined the politics of the entire Planet for the past century -- whatever
your brainwashing tells you. Sometime I just can't wait for the looming
economic collapse of the Capitalist order... simply because of the
underhanded crud I have to deal with from certain self-righteous people.

Re: [Vo]:The Papp engine and cavitation

[Che]

So.. 'Building 7' is for 'conspiracy nuts' for instance, huh?
You KNOW what it means, when you look at those videos of Building 7...


No wonder I have no respect for the 'middle-of-the-road' (i.e. cowardly,
self-interested) middle-class. Phil Ochs had a song about youse people.
And no wonder it's so easy for the scientific Establishment to not only
pooh-pooh, but to *persecute* Cold Fusion researchers.






On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Brian Ahern  wrote:
>
> So now we rely on conspiracy theories when the technology cannot be made
to work.
>
>
> Occam's Razor would suggest an inability of the  inventor, not his
government agents acting ill.
>
>
> Over 90% of folks who believe in UFOs also subscribe to conspiracy
theories. They need to to explain the 100% lack of any UFO evidence.
>
>
> My guess is that Rossi supporters are also UFO buffs.
>
>
>
> 
> From: bobcook39...@hotmail.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 3:25 PM
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: [Vo]:The Papp engine and cavitation
>
>
> MORE INFORMATION:
>
>
>
> http://worldnpa.org/abstracts/abstracts_paperlink_6835.pdf
>
> The Revolutionary Plasma Power Technology of Josef Papp
> worldnpa.org
> The Revolutionary Plasma Power Technology of Josef Papp Barry Springer
NPA Web Seminar November 24, 2012 Updated April 7, 2013
>
>
>
>
> It seems the FBI raided the Company developing the Papp engine in 2013
and the Government took the technology in to the dark IMHO.
>
>
>
> TOO BAD.
>
>
>
> I wonder if the company has been charged with a crime? Or merely given an
order curtailing their ability to communicate—i.e., speak.  They (the real
people affected) should check with the ACLU.
>
>
>
> The reported raid sounds typical of a shady attempt to curtail R
>
>
>
> Bob Cook
>
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [Vo]:The Papp engine and cavitation
>
>
>
> The following may help understanding:
>
>
>
> http://www.integrityresearchinstitute.org/PappEngine-Valone.pdf
>
>
>
> Bob Cook
>
> From: Axil Axil
> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 12:05 PM
> To: vortex-l
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Papp engine and cavitation
>
>
>
> ·One of the big mysteries of the Papp engine is understanding the
Papp engine fuel preparation device. What does that device do and why is it
important to the function of the Papp engine? All the Papp engine
replicators have discounted the need to use this fuel prep device and try
to get the Papp engine to work without prepared fuel. Papp knew that
prepared fuel was critically important to getting the engine to work. Three
months before his death in 1989, Papp destroyed all the fuel he had
prepared so that no one could ever get his engine to work ever again. The
engine laid useless inside his workshop. That engine was his alone forever
and could never be shared with the world.
>
>
>
> The cavitation theory of the Papp engine provides the reason why fuel
preparation is essential. A intense shock wave is required to form the
ultra dense crystal nature of the fuel in the alternate paired cylinder.
Without that shockwave, active fuel cannot be formed. The fuel preparation
device produced ultra dense water and latter in the fuel to act as a
bootstrap or initial plasma shock wave so that cavitation could occur in
the paired cylinder. Without that first shock wave, recurring fuel
formation does not begin in the alternate cylinder when the compression of
the water vapor/gas is underway.
>
>
>
> Papp used this prepared fuel to disintegrate a 5/8 inch stainless steel
pipe when he demoed his Papp common in the desert.
>
>
>
> oEdit
>
> o
>
> o
>
> ·
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> I am beginning to understand that the Papp engine was a cavitation based
device.
>
>
>
> In the 1960's Papp used water for his fuel. Papp must have produced water
crystals in the compression part of the cylinder cycle where the volume of
the cylinder was decreasing. During this increasing pressure environment
inside the cylinder, cavitation bubbles must have formed thereby producing
ultra dense water crystals.
>
>
>
> For example, some larger diesel engines suffer from cavitation due to
high compression and undersized cylinder walls. Vibrations of the cylinder
wall induce alternating low and high pressure in the coolant against the
cylinder wall. The result is pitting of the cylinder wall, which will
eventually let cooling fluid leak into the cylinder and combustion gases to
leak into the coolant.
>
>
>
> To stop the cavitation based erosion of the cylinder walls and the
subsequent loss of compression over time, Papp went to noble gases which
produce ultra dense noble gas crystals during the compression stage of the
cylinder cycle but the formation of ultra dense noble gas crystals did not
damage the cylinder walls.
>
>
>
> When Papp fired a spark, the ultra dense noble gas crystals exploded as
happens in the Holmlid experiment when the ultra dense 

Re: [Vo]:Fission may be the best fit for future LENR

[Che]

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:17 AM, John Shop <quack...@outlook.com> wrote:

> As the smoke cleared Brian Ahern mounted the barricade and roared out:
>
> I use outlook for e-mails.How do you block certain senders?
> ------
> *From:* Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> <comandantegri...@gmail.com>
> .  .  .
>
>
> Best to filter all vortex mail to its own folder so that it doesn't get in
> the way of real email and you can delete en-mass when required.
>
>
> Alternatively if it is only one annoying sender (and if I guess right),
> then you probably just have to mention to our list patron Bill Beatty that
> it looks like our petty-bourgeois grok is back and starting to get up lots
> of peoples noses - and Bill will banish him to vortexB again!
>

Spoken like a natural-born police-informer.

If all it takes to censor people here is a little clique having its way --
so be it.

Re: Fw: [Vo]:The Papp engine and cavitation

[Che]

So where's this patent?

On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 7:06 PM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Papp spent a few years developing the noble gas version of his  engine
> control that was more stable. By the early '80s, Papp found a new engineer
> to work with, Bob Rohner of West Liberty, Iowa. Papp settled in Florida.
> Several working engines ran during the Rohner years, which lasted until
> Papp died in '89. During this time, his third patent application was met
> with a USPTO request for a working model. Papp refused to not only take an
> engine to Washington DC, but also to leave it with anyone for any length of
> time. The USPTO then requested a dynamometer affidavit. A diesel engine
> test group associated with the University of Oklahoma agreed to come to
> Florida to test the engine. The affidavit was accepted by the USPTO and
> they issued the patent.
>
> That patent was designated by the patent office to be the best patent
> granted in that patent year.
>
> What other overunity devices has be granted a patent?
>
> On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Brian Ahern <ahern_br...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Rossi  - Papp  What's the difference. There is not support data.
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:53 PM
>> *To:* vortex-l
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Papp engine and cavitation
>>
>> I have been trying to understate how the Papp engine works for years. It
>> is a mystery. This is no information available on how it works.
>>
>> A clue to the production of a plasma based explosion is now coming from
>> Holmlid's experiments. Holmlid has just discovered that a spark can be used
>> to activate that plasma explosion just as well as a laser pulse.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Where's the best online source to go to for information on this?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am beginning to understand that the Papp engine was a cavitation
>>>> based device.
>>>>
>>>> In the 1960's Papp used water for his fuel. Papp must have produced
>>>> water crystals in the compression part of the cylinder cycle where the
>>>> volume of the cylinder was decreasing. During this increasing pressure
>>>> environment inside the cylinder, cavitation bubbles must have formed
>>>> thereby producing ultra dense water crystals.
>>>>
>>>> For example, some larger diesel engines suffer from cavitation due to
>>>> high compression and undersized cylinder walls. Vibrations of the
>>>> cylinder wall induce alternating low and high pressure in the coolant 
>>>> against
>>>> the cylinder wall. The result is pitting of the cylinder wall, which will
>>>> eventually let cooling fluid leak into the cylinder and combustion
>>>> gases to leak into the coolant.
>>>>
>>>> To stop the cavitation based erosion of the cylinder walls and the
>>>> subsequent loss of compression over time, Papp went to noble gases which
>>>> produce ultra dense noble gas crystals during the compression stage of the
>>>> cylinder cycle but the formation of ultra dense noble gas crystals did not
>>>> damage the cylinder walls.
>>>>
>>>> When Papp fired a spark, the ultra dense noble gas crystals exploded as
>>>> happens in the Holmlid experiment when the ultra dense hydrogen cycltals
>>>> produce atomic particle fragments that move outward at 3/4 the speed of
>>>> light. Currently, Holmlid does not capture that huge amount of energy
>>>> inherent to his expanding plasma.
>>>>
>>>> To utilize the energy in the expanding plasma, Holmlid might capture
>>>> that nuclear powered expanding plasma as Papp once did in an engine design
>>>> using ultra dense hydrogen as fuel.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

Further on the below...

(Assuming its reality): could a future well-designed and crafted,
theoretically definitively-understood nano-scale nano-tek cold fusion
machine be designed, so that the 'ash' by-product would be forced out of
the arena of the 'reaction chambers' as part of the process of energy
release..? That way IMO you could be keeping at least part of the entire
process 'clean' of by-product build-up... and ready for the next batch of
fuel 'input'. As far as I understand any of this.

And whether that fuel and/or the reaction matrix itself must be
continuously delivered to the reaction site dynamically, by some nano-tek
means.






On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 2:45 PM, bobcook39...@hotmail.com <
> bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Che—
>>
>>
>>
>> You nailed my thought process.
>>
>>
>>
>> Look at the dots: and make logical connections with  PRACTICAL scheme for
>> testing.  This is IMHO the crux of R
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob Cook
>>
>
>
> AFAIC the key to 'success' -- scientific or monetary -- is to indeed
> 'KISS' (Keep It Simple, Stupid!), _first_.
>
> Without a 'killer app' device for ALL to get their hands on -- most likely
> some drop-dead-simple hot-steam generator, churning out Utility-free energy
> on-demand, in any location, for pennies -- what self-interested
> 'enterprise' would want to plow oodles of cash down a bottomless money-pit,
> on some vague expectation of 'profit' in some not-too-imminent haze-ridden
> future..? Most of them would probably rather put their money on the
> 'Underwear Gnomes' instead.
>
> So maybe this ECCO is Open Science's answer to the self-interested
> proprietary shithead types like Rossi -- and whatever these 'geniuses' have
> hidden up their sleeves at the moment.
>
> I really hope cavitation is the key to cheap, abundant cold fusion devices.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Saturday, July 22, 2017 9:38 PM
>> *To: *vortex-l@eskimo.com
>> *Subject: *Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just
>> uploaded a video
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 2:57 PM, bobcook39...@hotmail.com <
>> bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> TWO ideas about noble gases and fuel preparation:
>>
>>
>>
>>1. Being inert, they can be used in combination with H or D to
>>diffuse into a metallic lattice  and cause mico-cracking   with creation 
>> of
>>LENR active sites with large internal surface areas for formation of 
>> SSP’s.
>>2. Repeated cycling, gassing and degassing,  would allow measurement
>>of increased number of mico-cavities until a desired density is
>>established.   Careful measurement of the volume of gas that diffuses in
>>and out with each cycle would be instructive in this regard.  A mass
>>spectrometer to determine ratios of the diffusing gases and knowledge of
>>their diffusion rates in the fuel should provide additional information
>>regarding the status of micro-cavity density in the fuel.
>>
>>
>>
>> A nano-particle fracture mechanics analysis may be warranted to determine
>> desirable pressure and temperatures during cycling/fuel preparation.
>> Brittle-ductile transition temperature of the metallic fuel lattice would
>> help determine appropriate lower temperatures for cycling, since brittle
>> fractures with 1 or 2 dimensional characteristics may be a desirable LENR
>> geometry for SSP’s.  Acoustic emission   monitoring of the fuel cycling
>> would aid in determination of fracturing occurring during cycling at
>> various temperatures, pressures and noble gases being used.  (Cavities that
>> are too big  may be bad for LENR+.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob Cook
>>
>> First it starts with the by-chance, haphazard nano-fracking.
>>
>> Then follows the sophisticated, calculated, systematic nano-tek
>> build-system...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Papp engine and cavitation

[Che]

Where's the best online source to go to for information on this?

On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> I am beginning to understand that the Papp engine was a cavitation based
> device.
>
> In the 1960's Papp used water for his fuel. Papp must have produced water
> crystals in the compression part of the cylinder cycle where the volume of
> the cylinder was decreasing. During this increasing pressure environment
> inside the cylinder, cavitation bubbles must have formed thereby producing
> ultra dense water crystals.
>
> For example, some larger diesel engines suffer from cavitation due to
> high compression and undersized cylinder walls. Vibrations of the
> cylinder wall induce alternating low and high pressure in the coolant against
> the cylinder wall. The result is pitting of the cylinder wall, which will
> eventually let cooling fluid leak into the cylinder and combustion gases
> to leak into the coolant.
>
> To stop the cavitation based erosion of the cylinder walls and the
> subsequent loss of compression over time, Papp went to noble gases which
> produce ultra dense noble gas crystals during the compression stage of the
> cylinder cycle but the formation of ultra dense noble gas crystals did not
> damage the cylinder walls.
>
> When Papp fired a spark, the ultra dense noble gas crystals exploded as
> happens in the Holmlid experiment when the ultra dense hydrogen cycltals
> produce atomic particle fragments that move outward at 3/4 the speed of
> light. Currently, Holmlid does not capture that huge amount of energy
> inherent to his expanding plasma.
>
> To utilize the energy in the expanding plasma, Holmlid might capture that
> nuclear powered expanding plasma as Papp once did in an engine design using
> ultra dense hydrogen as fuel.
>

Re: [Vo]:Fission may be the best fit for future LENR

[Che]

lol

Just as long as you don't get to censor everyone's else's responses to your
musings.

Fission, indeed... the whole POINT of cold fusion is to NOT 'do fission'.
Pfft.





On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 9:16 AM, Brian Ahern <ahern_br...@msn.com> wrote:

> I use outlook for e-mails.How do you block certain senders?
>
>
> ------
> *From:* Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 23, 2017 1:40 AM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Fission may be the best fit for future LENR
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Jones Beene <jone...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Nuclear fission has a lot of critics, and rightly so ... but all of the
>> problems of fission derive from trying to control a multi-ton critical mass
>> of explosively enriched U in a steam pressurized reactor. Even with that
>> major design problem, the French have demonstrated to the rest of the World
>> that fission can make economic sense.
>>
>> Even with Fukushima still smoldering, we must consider that an improved
>> version of nuclear fission can make great economic sense. This is
>> especially true for countries without much oil. When the electric car goes
>> into mass production at lower cost (soon) off-peak recharging is a feature
>> which makes fission more economically viable in the 'big picture'.
>>
>> A "new and improved" version of fission means ditching enrichment, going
>> subcritical, going small and modular and with direct conversion of heat to
>> electricity. It is easily possible that fission can be made preferable to
>> hot fusion in every way, and less costly than any other option including
>> coal and cold fusion, if Pd is required.
>
>
> I hear they're getting energy out of windmills and solar panels too, these
> days.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 2:45 PM, bobcook39...@hotmail.com <
bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Che—
>
>
>
> You nailed my thought process.
>
>
>
> Look at the dots: and make logical connections with  PRACTICAL scheme for
> testing.  This is IMHO the crux of R
>
>
>
> Bob Cook
>


AFAIC the key to 'success' -- scientific or monetary -- is to indeed 'KISS'
(Keep It Simple, Stupid!), _first_.

Without a 'killer app' device for ALL to get their hands on -- most likely
some drop-dead-simple hot-steam generator, churning out Utility-free energy
on-demand, in any location, for pennies -- what self-interested
'enterprise' would want to plow oodles of cash down a bottomless money-pit,
on some vague expectation of 'profit' in some not-too-imminent haze-ridden
future..? Most of them would probably rather put their money on the
'Underwear Gnomes' instead.

So maybe this ECCO is Open Science's answer to the self-interested
proprietary shithead types like Rossi -- and whatever these 'geniuses' have
hidden up their sleeves at the moment.

I really hope cavitation is the key to cheap, abundant cold fusion devices.





*From: *Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Saturday, July 22, 2017 9:38 PM
> *To: *vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject: *Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just
> uploaded a video
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 2:57 PM, bobcook39...@hotmail.com <
> bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> TWO ideas about noble gases and fuel preparation:
>
>
>
>1. Being inert, they can be used in combination with H or D to diffuse
>into a metallic lattice  and cause mico-cracking   with creation of LENR
>active sites with large internal surface areas for formation of SSP’s.
>2. Repeated cycling, gassing and degassing,  would allow measurement
>of increased number of mico-cavities until a desired density is
>established.   Careful measurement of the volume of gas that diffuses in
>and out with each cycle would be instructive in this regard.  A mass
>spectrometer to determine ratios of the diffusing gases and knowledge of
>their diffusion rates in the fuel should provide additional information
>regarding the status of micro-cavity density in the fuel.
>
>
>
> A nano-particle fracture mechanics analysis may be warranted to determine
> desirable pressure and temperatures during cycling/fuel preparation.
> Brittle-ductile transition temperature of the metallic fuel lattice would
> help determine appropriate lower temperatures for cycling, since brittle
> fractures with 1 or 2 dimensional characteristics may be a desirable LENR
> geometry for SSP’s.  Acoustic emission   monitoring of the fuel cycling
> would aid in determination of fracturing occurring during cycling at
> various temperatures, pressures and noble gases being used.  (Cavities that
> are too big  may be bad for LENR+.
>
>
>
> Bob Cook
>
> First it starts with the by-chance, haphazard nano-fracking.
>
> Then follows the sophisticated, calculated, systematic nano-tek
> build-system...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Fission may be the best fit for future LENR

[Che]

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

> Nuclear fission has a lot of critics, and rightly so ... but all of the
> problems of fission derive from trying to control a multi-ton critical mass
> of explosively enriched U in a steam pressurized reactor. Even with that
> major design problem, the French have demonstrated to the rest of the World
> that fission can make economic sense.
>
> Even with Fukushima still smoldering, we must consider that an improved
> version of nuclear fission can make great economic sense. This is
> especially true for countries without much oil. When the electric car goes
> into mass production at lower cost (soon) off-peak recharging is a feature
> which makes fission more economically viable in the 'big picture'.
>
> A "new and improved" version of fission means ditching enrichment, going
> subcritical, going small and modular and with direct conversion of heat to
> electricity. It is easily possible that fission can be made preferable to
> hot fusion in every way, and less costly than any other option including
> coal and cold fusion, if Pd is required.


I hear they're getting energy out of windmills and solar panels too, these
days.

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 2:57 PM, bobcook39...@hotmail.com <
bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> TWO ideas about noble gases and fuel preparation:
>
>
>
>1. Being inert, they can be used in combination with H or D to diffuse
>into a metallic lattice  and cause mico-cracking   with creation of LENR
>active sites with large internal surface areas for formation of SSP’s.
>2. Repeated cycling, gassing and degassing,  would allow measurement
>of increased number of mico-cavities until a desired density is
>established.   Careful measurement of the volume of gas that diffuses in
>and out with each cycle would be instructive in this regard.  A mass
>spectrometer to determine ratios of the diffusing gases and knowledge of
>their diffusion rates in the fuel should provide additional information
>regarding the status of micro-cavity density in the fuel.
>
>
>
> A nano-particle fracture mechanics analysis may be warranted to determine
> desirable pressure and temperatures during cycling/fuel preparation.
> Brittle-ductile transition temperature of the metallic fuel lattice would
> help determine appropriate lower temperatures for cycling, since brittle
> fractures with 1 or 2 dimensional characteristics may be a desirable LENR
> geometry for SSP’s.  Acoustic emission   monitoring of the fuel cycling
> would aid in determination of fracturing occurring during cycling at
> various temperatures, pressures and noble gases being used.  (Cavities that
> are too big  may be bad for LENR+.
>
>
>
> Bob Cook
>
First it starts with the by-chance, haphazard nano-fracking.
Then follows the sophisticated, calculated, systematic nano-tek
build-system...

[Vo]:Why Rossi 'won'

[Che]

This has likely already been pointed out here -- but I'll point it out now
(again), if it hasn't.


Here’s The Settlement—Getting The License Back Was Rossi’s Top Priority



The bottom line appears to be that IH 'settled' -- because they simply
could not *prove* fraud (which perhaps, never actually took place -- at
least the way IH sees it). Simple as that. So they would have _lost_ the
case if it had gone to trial -- and been liable for whatever _they_ would
have been liable for.

Rossi OTOH, strategically forewent the money he was 'owed': because he
valued the IP over everything else -- and is smart enuff to know when to
'fold' and walk away.


Is that it, or close enuff..?

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 2:46 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> ECCO shows that the preparation of the LENR fuel is required for a
> sucessful LENR reaction to take hold.
>
> This was true for the Papp engine all the way up to and including the
> Rossi and ME356 reactors.
>
> We have to ask ourselves, what can the preparation of fuel do to enable
> the LENR effect? Something is produced in the fuel that is special. A
> theory of LENR must include a description and the function of the special
> element in the fuel.
>

AFAIK, surface area is being maximized at some scale which is crucial for
cold fusion reactions to occur efficiently -- same inside a lattice as on
the surface of particles. There are probably any number of configurations
which would work, depending on the elements involved. Lots of variables
there.

Apparently, the smaller the grains -- the more closely the system
approaches an ideal state. Whatever that is.




> ECCO uses cavitation to produce this special thing.
>

This has to be one of the most important facts to take away from this (and
other?) cold fusion experiments. Cavitation -- along with directly-applied
radiation of sundry frequencies -- appears to be a/the most efficient
method of getting energy directly into whatever matter matrix is required
to sustain a reaction.





> One of the most closely held secret that Rossi has is his method of fuel
> production. For example in the IH/Rossi lawsuit settlement, IH was force to
> destroy all written records about the production of the fuel.
>

Secrecy empowers the powerful. It is, *by its very nature*,
ANTI-democratic. i.e.: a THREAT to democracy -- and thus a threat to
scientific inquiry and the scientific method. Not to mention good
engineering.

By corollary, the seeking-after of 'profit' is the handmaiden of said
secrecy and power-mongering.







> In the ME356 reactor test, ME356 states that this fuel was weak because he
> did not have enough time to process the fuel. So the duel must be a state
> of matter that contains a LENR sensitive factor that takes time to produce
> and that factor increases over time. The ECCO fuel preparation process
> takes 200 hours to complete. So a cavitation based factor must accumulate
> the LENR factor a little at a time to become LENR enabled.
>
> What can noble gas compounds and cavitation have in common?
>
> Anybody have any ideas?
>


Noble gases are essentially inert..?

AFAIK, what takes time here is the grinding down of the powder in a slurry,
to the optimum particle size: AFAIC _not_ a likely issue in any commercial
production process.

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 5:18 AM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:

> You're saying EXACTLY the same thing I and others were saying on the
> link provided, jerk.
>

At this point I do not CARE what you have to say: because the bottom line
is, you injected 'it's a scam' into the thread, right at the beginning. For
that alone, you are just wrong AND malicious AFAIC. On top of being the
usual sort who will never admit to being wrong, no matter what.


But back to the IMPORTANT things. Like *somebody*, somewhere, finally
coming up with a cold fusion steam engine that churns out impressive
quantities of energy, independent of the wastrel, polluting corporate
utilities.

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 7:06 PM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I didn't accuse Suhas of scamming, although that's a distinct
> possibility.   It looks to me like the lawyers and bankers that have a
> hold over Suhas might be running a scam and I was urging MFMP to use
> caution.   At the very least, buying real estate is  pretty far afield
> from what MFMP's mission statement projects.
>
> And in the link provided, I'm not the only one saying such things.
> So pipe down, bub.   Argue the facts, not personality "types" and pure
> bullshit.
>

What you said sounded nothing of the sort; so don't B.S. us, OK? And as for
the 'logic' of this thing: while banks are forever run by greedy assholes
and can be expected to ALWAYS make pin-headed 'business' decisions, the
*timing* of this particular blindside seems AFAIC wholly suspicious... and
IMO speaks of outside interference. But how that then morphs into a
'scamming' of a perennially underfunded volunteer undertaking like the MFMP
stretches the very concept.

So again: I think you're trying to 'pull a fast one' here, to cover for
your initial bad attitude.
Like the ruling-class oligarchy and its minions: NEVER admit you're wrong.
Right?

In any case: I hope this guy and his team make it to Europa -- and to a new
lab. And DON'T start 'pulling a Rossi' on the World.





>
> On 7/20/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> What?   You're the one who started with the personal bullshit.
> >> Buying real estate to help out an experimenter's debt situation is
> >> pretty far afield from what MFMP's stated mission is declared.
> >>
> >
> >
> > You *accused* them of scamming. YOU started this, bub.
> > But I have lots of experience with your type, understand... so don't
> think
> > you're going to be able to misdirect anything here.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On 7/20/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Occham's Razor applies in scientific politics as well as it applies
> to
> >> >> other inductive pursuits.  And I'm not the one prevaricating, I'm
> >> >> trying to get PAST the evasion.   Why are you even here with your
> >> >> attitude?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 'I know you are -- but what am I??'
> >> >
> >> > I expect such juvenile games from people who start off poisoning the
> >> well,
> >> > like you did.
> >> >
> >> > So be it.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> On 7/20/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 5:03 AM, Kevin O'Malley
> >> >> > <kevmol...@gmail.com>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Because if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a
> >> >> >> duck, etc., it's probably a duck.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That's the kind of bullshit, status-quo prevarication we get in
> >> Politix
> >> >> all
> >> >> > the time, eh? Shame on you for trying it here. It's not unlike
> >> >> > kicking
> >> >> > someone in the head when they're already down: it's too easy, and
> >> >> > it's
> >> >> not
> >> >> > fair play. Why are you even here, with an attitude like that..?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Frankly Bub, this thing is NOT quacking like a duck as far as I can
> >> >> > see,
> >> >> > based on a few videos and articles. I'm hoping we're actually
> seeing
> >> >> > what
> >> >> > many of us hope we are seeing. HOW these things always end up
> >> >> > failing
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > the end, is what *I* want to know. The MFMP guy speaks elsewhere of
> >> >> > 'dark
> >> >> > forces'... and being the subject of 'dark forces' myself -- I
> *KNOW*
> >> >> > they
> >> >> > really DO exist. So AFAIC: there IS likely a conspiracy to d

Re: [Vo]:Rossi-Gullstrom paper published on July 18 on Arxiv.org

[Che]

Is this yet another Rossi 'black' box..?

Bah, then. Full disclosure. Open-Source Science -- which AFAIC includes
Open-Source engineering, too.
Forget becoming rich and famous. Just do it for Humanity.




On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 6:23 PM, Nick  wrote:

> E-Cat QX Picture Posted in New Rossi-Gullstrom Paper (COP of 2000 reported
> with Calorimetry) | E-Cat World
> 
>
> E-Cat QX Picture Posted in New Rossi-Gullstrom Paper (COP of 2000 reported
> ...
>
> 
>
>
> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.05249.pdf
>

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What?   You're the one who started with the personal bullshit.
> Buying real estate to help out an experimenter's debt situation is
> pretty far afield from what MFMP's stated mission is declared.
>


You *accused* them of scamming. YOU started this, bub.
But I have lots of experience with your type, understand... so don't think
you're going to be able to misdirect anything here.








>
> On 7/20/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Occham's Razor applies in scientific politics as well as it applies to
> >> other inductive pursuits.  And I'm not the one prevaricating, I'm
> >> trying to get PAST the evasion.   Why are you even here with your
> >> attitude?
> >>
> >
> >
> > 'I know you are -- but what am I??'
> >
> > I expect such juvenile games from people who start off poisoning the
> well,
> > like you did.
> >
> > So be it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On 7/20/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 5:03 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Because if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a
> >> >> duck, etc., it's probably a duck.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > That's the kind of bullshit, status-quo prevarication we get in
> Politix
> >> all
> >> > the time, eh? Shame on you for trying it here. It's not unlike kicking
> >> > someone in the head when they're already down: it's too easy, and it's
> >> not
> >> > fair play. Why are you even here, with an attitude like that..?
> >> >
> >> > Frankly Bub, this thing is NOT quacking like a duck as far as I can
> >> > see,
> >> > based on a few videos and articles. I'm hoping we're actually seeing
> >> > what
> >> > many of us hope we are seeing. HOW these things always end up failing
> >> > in
> >> > the end, is what *I* want to know. The MFMP guy speaks elsewhere of
> >> > 'dark
> >> > forces'... and being the subject of 'dark forces' myself -- I *KNOW*
> >> > they
> >> > really DO exist. So AFAIC: there IS likely a conspiracy to derail ALL
> >> cold
> >> > fusion research.
> >> >
> >> > And I wonder who'd be behind THAT effort...
> >> >
> >> > For that matter: who burned down Tesla's lab..? I'll give you three
> >> > guesses. That's all you'd need.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> http://e-catworld.com/2017/07/14/mfmp-plan-and-proposal-
> >> >> regarding-ecco-device/
> >> >>
> >> >> On 7/20/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Why would anyone think this guy is having the World on, as some
> sort
> >> of
> >> >> > scam..? That sort of thinking is AFAIC simply more ritual abuse of
> >> >> Occam's
> >> >> > poor razor. Considering the HUGE amount of work AND resources
> people
> >> >> > put
> >> >> > into these sorts of things, *you* people really should be compelled
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > *give them reasonable benefit of the doubt* -- until 'something
> >> >> > comes
> >> >> > up'
> >> >> > to -- justifiably -- indicate otherwise.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Sheesh. Misanthropists.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Occham's Razor applies in scientific politics as well as it applies to
> other inductive pursuits.  And I'm not the one prevaricating, I'm
> trying to get PAST the evasion.   Why are you even here with your
> attitude?
>


'I know you are -- but what am I??'

I expect such juvenile games from people who start off poisoning the well,
like you did.

So be it.







>
> On 7/20/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 5:03 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Because if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a
> >> duck, etc., it's probably a duck.
> >>
> >
> > That's the kind of bullshit, status-quo prevarication we get in Politix
> all
> > the time, eh? Shame on you for trying it here. It's not unlike kicking
> > someone in the head when they're already down: it's too easy, and it's
> not
> > fair play. Why are you even here, with an attitude like that..?
> >
> > Frankly Bub, this thing is NOT quacking like a duck as far as I can see,
> > based on a few videos and articles. I'm hoping we're actually seeing what
> > many of us hope we are seeing. HOW these things always end up failing in
> > the end, is what *I* want to know. The MFMP guy speaks elsewhere of 'dark
> > forces'... and being the subject of 'dark forces' myself -- I *KNOW* they
> > really DO exist. So AFAIC: there IS likely a conspiracy to derail ALL
> cold
> > fusion research.
> >
> > And I wonder who'd be behind THAT effort...
> >
> > For that matter: who burned down Tesla's lab..? I'll give you three
> > guesses. That's all you'd need.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> http://e-catworld.com/2017/07/14/mfmp-plan-and-proposal-
> >> regarding-ecco-device/
> >>
> >> On 7/20/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Why would anyone think this guy is having the World on, as some sort
> of
> >> > scam..? That sort of thinking is AFAIC simply more ritual abuse of
> >> Occam's
> >> > poor razor. Considering the HUGE amount of work AND resources people
> >> > put
> >> > into these sorts of things, *you* people really should be compelled to
> >> > *give them reasonable benefit of the doubt* -- until 'something comes
> >> > up'
> >> > to -- justifiably -- indicate otherwise.
> >> >
> >> > Sheesh. Misanthropists.
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 5:03 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Because if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a
> duck, etc., it's probably a duck.
>

That's the kind of bullshit, status-quo prevarication we get in Politix all
the time, eh? Shame on you for trying it here. It's not unlike kicking
someone in the head when they're already down: it's too easy, and it's not
fair play. Why are you even here, with an attitude like that..?

Frankly Bub, this thing is NOT quacking like a duck as far as I can see,
based on a few videos and articles. I'm hoping we're actually seeing what
many of us hope we are seeing. HOW these things always end up failing in
the end, is what *I* want to know. The MFMP guy speaks elsewhere of 'dark
forces'... and being the subject of 'dark forces' myself -- I *KNOW* they
really DO exist. So AFAIC: there IS likely a conspiracy to derail ALL cold
fusion research.

And I wonder who'd be behind THAT effort...

For that matter: who burned down Tesla's lab..? I'll give you three
guesses. That's all you'd need.






>
> http://e-catworld.com/2017/07/14/mfmp-plan-and-proposal-
> regarding-ecco-device/
>
> On 7/20/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Why would anyone think this guy is having the World on, as some sort of
> > scam..? That sort of thinking is AFAIC simply more ritual abuse of
> Occam's
> > poor razor. Considering the HUGE amount of work AND resources people put
> > into these sorts of things, *you* people really should be compelled to
> > *give them reasonable benefit of the doubt* -- until 'something comes up'
> > to -- justifiably -- indicate otherwise.
> >
> > Sheesh. Misanthropists.
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Last I was looking into this, it seemed like there was a scam being
> run on MFMP.   It took all this rigmarole to get the guy to work with
> you on a replication?
>

The SoundCloud audio clips make it clear that the main issue is the BANKS.
i.e.: the LOANSHARKS this guy was forced to mortgage his property to, or
similar.

The *interesting* stuff is the speculation that this apparently _elegant_
use of  sonic pressure involves *cavitation* operating on the
micrometer-size particles inside the slender ceramic tubing between the
electrodes. The video shows impressive heat production involving likely
said tubes.


Why would anyone think this guy is having the World on, as some sort of
scam..? That sort of thinking is AFAIC simply more ritual abuse of Occam's
poor razor. Considering the HUGE amount of work AND resources people put
into these sorts of things, *you* people really should be compelled to
*give them reasonable benefit of the doubt* -- until 'something comes up'
to -- justifiably -- indicate otherwise.

Sheesh. Misanthropists.






> On 7/19/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So... what do people think about the ECCO cold fusion project from an
> > Indian team? The MFMP seem impressed by a claimed COP of 8.
>

[Vo]:Cold Fusion from Mumbai(?): ECCO Plasma Treatment

[Che]

I like how the reactor vessel is tied down with nylon rope.

Impressive amounts of energy coming out of apparently a few ceramic rods.
On-demand.


ECCO: Plasma Treatment 

[Vo]:Fwd: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video

[Che]

So... what do people think about the ECCO cold fusion project from an
Indian team? The MFMP seem impressed by a claimed COP of 8.







-- Forwarded message --
From: YouTube 
Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:15 PM
Subject: Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project just uploaded a video
To: Trotskisty 


Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project

has uploaded Slowly slowly catch the monkey

After reviewing the decisio...
--

Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project

has uploaded Slowly slowly catch the monkey



Slowly slowly catch the monkey


Martin
Fleischmann Memorial Project


After reviewing the decision made, Suhas agrees to work with us on
replication.
© 2017 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066
You were sent this email because you chose to receive updates from Martin
Fleischmann Memorial Project
.
If you don't want these updates anymore, you can unsubscribe here
.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:04 AM, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:02 AM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm no fyzicist, but BECs are the quantum state of matter absolutely
>> requiring the least possible amount of energy in the system as is possible
>>
>> This is not an absolute. When polaritons are confined in an optical
>> cavity over time, FANO interference forces the waveform into a soliton. In
>> other words, long term confinement of EMF leads to the formation of a BEC
>> through interference.
>>
>
> I did not know that. But this is only a _virtual_ BEC, no..?
>


Perhaps the key to effective 'room-temperature' superconductivity is to be
'virtual superconductors' as well...
:)

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:02 AM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm no fyzicist, but BECs are the quantum state of matter absolutely
> requiring the least possible amount of energy in the system as is possible
>
> This is not an absolute. When polaritons are confined in an optical cavity
> over time, FANO interference forces the waveform into a soliton. In other
> words, long term confinement of EMF leads to the formation of a BEC through
> interference.
>

I did not know that. But this is only a _virtual_ BEC, no..?








>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wouldn't that be fascinating if High Temp Superconductors were
>>> generating linear BECs?   I can see they might be Luttinger Liquids,
>>> but let's say it went one step further, not into a solid state of
>>> matter but into the Condensate state of matter.Are there telltale
>>> signs of a BEC?
>>>
>>
>> I'm no fyzicist, but BECs are the quantum state of matter absolutely
>> requiring the least possible amount of energy in the system as is possible
>> (in order to overcome Pauli exclusion, AFAIK). So AFAIK too: they'd
>> _necessarily_ *need* to be around zero kelvin. Not so superconductors:
>> which would apparently *only* require a configuration which allows
>> electrons (_only_ cooper pairs?) to travel freely without careening into
>> the atomic lattice containing them. Perhaps a lattice which indeed *guides*
>> them w/o any friction.
>>
>> Maybe a future fyzix would handle that at room temperature too... Who can
>> know the far future, eh..? And perhaps room temperature superconductors
>> would be the necessary pre-condition for that to come about, too... (??!!)
>> :D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On 7/18/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:43 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:13 AM, Brian Ahern <ahern_br...@msn.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> There are no room temperature superconductors. They are theoretically
>>> >> impossible.
>>> >>
>>> >> ***Someone should tell the guys who are working towards that goal.
>>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room-temperature_superconductor
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I think the problem with this sort of thinking, is that the assumption
>>> is
>>> > to assume we need only be looking at essentially 'known' states of
>>> matter
>>> > -- whilst totally overlooking the HUGE (essentially INFINITE) 'phase
>>> space'
>>> > of possibilities which 'emergent' physical relations hand us.
>>> >
>>> > Someone is not 'thinking outside the box'...
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

Looking up 'linear BEC' I'm getting battery circuits... wtf.
:P

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Wouldn't that be fascinating if High Temp Superconductors were
>> generating linear BECs?   I can see they might be Luttinger Liquids,
>> but let's say it went one step further, not into a solid state of
>> matter but into the Condensate state of matter.Are there telltale
>> signs of a BEC?
>>
>
> I'm no fyzicist, but BECs are the quantum state of matter absolutely
> requiring the least possible amount of energy in the system as is possible
> (in order to overcome Pauli exclusion, AFAIK). So AFAIK too: they'd
> _necessarily_ *need* to be around zero kelvin. Not so superconductors:
> which would apparently *only* require a configuration which allows
> electrons (_only_ cooper pairs?) to travel freely without careening into
> the atomic lattice containing them. Perhaps a lattice which indeed *guides*
> them w/o any friction.
>
> Maybe a future fyzix would handle that at room temperature too... Who can
> know the far future, eh..? And perhaps room temperature superconductors
> would be the necessary pre-condition for that to come about, too... (??!!)
> :D
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On 7/18/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:43 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:13 AM, Brian Ahern <ahern_br...@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> There are no room temperature superconductors. They are theoretically
>> >> impossible.
>> >>
>> >> ***Someone should tell the guys who are working towards that goal.
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room-temperature_superconductor
>> >
>> >
>> > I think the problem with this sort of thinking, is that the assumption
>> is
>> > to assume we need only be looking at essentially 'known' states of
>> matter
>> > -- whilst totally overlooking the HUGE (essentially INFINITE) 'phase
>> space'
>> > of possibilities which 'emergent' physical relations hand us.
>> >
>> > Someone is not 'thinking outside the box'...
>> >
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wouldn't that be fascinating if High Temp Superconductors were
> generating linear BECs?   I can see they might be Luttinger Liquids,
> but let's say it went one step further, not into a solid state of
> matter but into the Condensate state of matter.Are there telltale
> signs of a BEC?
>

I'm no fyzicist, but BECs are the quantum state of matter absolutely
requiring the least possible amount of energy in the system as is possible
(in order to overcome Pauli exclusion, AFAIK). So AFAIK too: they'd
_necessarily_ *need* to be around zero kelvin. Not so superconductors:
which would apparently *only* require a configuration which allows
electrons (_only_ cooper pairs?) to travel freely without careening into
the atomic lattice containing them. Perhaps a lattice which indeed *guides*
them w/o any friction.

Maybe a future fyzix would handle that at room temperature too... Who can
know the far future, eh..? And perhaps room temperature superconductors
would be the necessary pre-condition for that to come about, too... (??!!)
:D




>
> On 7/18/17, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:43 AM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:13 AM, Brian Ahern <ahern_br...@msn.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> There are no room temperature superconductors. They are theoretically
> >> impossible.
> >>
> >> ***Someone should tell the guys who are working towards that goal.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room-temperature_superconductor
> >
> >
> > I think the problem with this sort of thinking, is that the assumption is
> > to assume we need only be looking at essentially 'known' states of matter
> > -- whilst totally overlooking the HUGE (essentially INFINITE) 'phase
> space'
> > of possibilities which 'emergent' physical relations hand us.
> >
> > Someone is not 'thinking outside the box'...
> >
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:43 AM, Kevin O'Malley 
wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:13 AM, Brian Ahern  wrote:
>
> There are no room temperature superconductors. They are theoretically
> impossible.
>
> ***Someone should tell the guys who are working towards that goal.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room-temperature_superconductor


I think the problem with this sort of thinking, is that the assumption is
to assume we need only be looking at essentially 'known' states of matter
-- whilst totally overlooking the HUGE (essentially INFINITE) 'phase space'
of possibilities which 'emergent' physical relations hand us.

Someone is not 'thinking outside the box'...



“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has
simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the
wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what
to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you
said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so
bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates,
and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every
pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be
misunderstood.”


― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:13 AM, Brian Ahern  wrote:
>
>
> There are no room temperature superconductors. They are theoretically
impossible. All reports of them have never been corroborated.
> The explanation would take hours, but Keith Johnson solved the problem in
1983 in the  Journal of Synthetic Metals volume 5.


Is this going to be one of those CLASSIC, classic 'common-sensical',
'officially-proven', Establishment Science conceits which are going to turn
out being absolutely nothing of the sort -- to be summarily tossed out the
window -- upon the shocking revelation of an 'impossible' breakthrough:
which makes this former 'sure-thing' belief the laffable pomposity it in
fact was, upon historical hindsight..?

Re: [Vo]:Santilli "neutrons"

[Che]

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

> http://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/06/05/
> 1008093/0/en/Thunder-Energies-Receives-Down-Payment-on-
> Equipment-Producing-a-Directional-Neutron-Flux-and-
> Predicts-Profitability-for-its-Construction.html
>

'Directional neutron flux'..? Sounds like someone wants a ray gun weapon.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> This is what I am not getting. Why are we even talking about 'cold
>> fusion' as a reality, when initial (wild?) success always seems to end up
>> in a dead-end -- where people can get away with SAYING this sort of thing..?
>>
>
> The results are not a bit dead end. By the standards of experimental
> science, cold fusion results were superb. Practically unprecedented in the
> history of science. It was a totally unexpected phenomenon and it is still
> not understood, yet within a few years there were hundreds of irrefutable
> papers confirming it. If it were not for academic politics, every scientist
> on earth would be convinced by the results from people such as Fritz Will.
> See:
>


If Jed Rothwell didn't have his OWN agenda, instead of this knee-jerk
response, he would have glossed instead that I am speaking really ONLY of
the '*practical*' engineering outcomes of this basic scientific research --
you know: the shit MOST people are actually INTERESTED in. Like buying a
dirt-cheap water-heater/electricity source/eternal battery/yadda.

Jed Rothwell, scientific researcher extraordinaire, has misunderstood the
easily-grasped (admittedly 'loaded') context of the term 'dead-end' above.

Tsk, tsk.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> We shoud not be talking about 'cold fusion'. We should be talking about
> proton decay.
>

I *totally* disagree. 'Cold Fusion' is clearly a term with mucho
popularizing potential... and most importantly: **it is NOT all that
inaccurate a term, considering its subject-matter**. But it is *precisely*
because of this popularizing potential -- and thus its immediate threat to
certain vested interests -- which is AFAIC the root cause behind all the
attempts to marginalize the term, and make it synonymous with crank
quackery and 'fringe fyzix', etc.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Brian Ahern  wrote:
>
>
> Axil's pronouncements seem to indicate well established experimental
evidence.  There is none.
>
> Inviting superconductivity into LENR has no more validity than bringing
in a witch doctor to lead the discussion.
>
> The sad reality is that nobody has succeeded in producing 1.0 watts of
excess energy with a COP > 1.5 on a repeatable and demonstrated platform.


This is what I am not getting. Why are we even talking about 'cold fusion'
as a reality, when initial (wild?) success always seems to end up in a
dead-end -- where people can get away with SAYING this sort of thing..?

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

You want the last word? Make another useless email reply.

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> What? You calling me a liar?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Okay, have it your way: you're a liar. Now tell us who sneered.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Nyah, nyah, nyhah, petit-bourgeois swell-head engineer.
>>
>
> Hey, you asked me to call you that! Make up your mind.
>
>
>
>> And for the record: the one who sneers does NOT actually usually USE the
>> word 'sneer'.
>>
>
> Too meta for me. For the record: When the barber shaves those who do not
> shave themselves, does he shave himself?
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 7:46 PM, ROGER ANDERTON 
wrote:
>
> 5 Jul at 5:50 PM  said :   So much drama for nothing...
>
>
> does that count as sneering?


No, actually. In this sense here, it is sneering when it is in fact
_unwarranted_, and _gratuitously_ dismissive. However, there are situations
where sneering is in fact 'warranted'... but in that case, such a response
to others' misfortune is considered highly 'not cricket' (i.e. in bad
taste).

Sneering is never constructive. Why they invented the word, OK?

Sheesh. You can take them off the Farm...

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 7:34 PM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Who sneered? Who are "they"?
>>>
>>> - Jed
>>>
>>>
>> What? You calling me a liar?
>>
>
> Okay, have it your way: you're a liar. Now tell us who sneered.
>


Nyah, nyah, nyhah, petit-bourgeois swell-head engineer.

Pfft.

On to the science, OK? I see the MFMP has responded to someone who has
apparently sneered at them(??!!)

And for the record: the one who sneers does NOT actually usually USE the
word 'sneer'.
Boy. Some people.








>
>
>> Go read the thread.
>>
>
> I don't see it.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
> Not so - no one here that I am aware of - sneers at MFMP. Or if they do -
>>> they are misguided.
>>>
>>
>> Well they have. Right here. Recently.
>>
>
> Who sneered? Who are "they"?
>
> - Jed
>
>
What? You calling me a liar? Go read the thread.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 9:16 AM, Jones Beene <jone...@pacbell.net> wrote:

> Che wrote
>
> People here sneer at the likes of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial
> Project.. but say what you will: its very OPEN [Source] nature is what
> *will* at least keep it out of the grubby clutches of moneyed-interests.
>
>
> Not so - no one here that I am aware of - sneers at MFMP. Or if they do -
> they are misguided.
>

Well they have. Right here. Recently.




Just the opposite - in fact, a version of "open-source" is the way of the
> future for LENR... but it needs refinement. For instance, patents can be a
> necessary evil - if only to keep patent trolls from jumping in and
> obtaining one first.
>

Patents are 'necessary', like locks on your doors are necessary. There was
a time in the past when door-locks were UN-necessary -- and there will come
again a time where they will become a relic of our barbaric Past (Present).
I prefer to focus positively, on the contents of the house.






>
> The main thing needed for continuing cash flow for the research is the
> promise of some kind of future reward for the funder. It is easily possible
> to merge capitalism and optimized R into a mutually acceptable package.
>

NO. The FOSS software Movement is proof enuff that monetary reward is NOT
the main, essential motivation for the creative process -- whatever paid
propagandists continually and relentlessly say (and whatever particular
details don't really match my claim). However, money *does indeed* become a
crucial issue, when a chronic lack of resources poses an obstacle to
further creative effort (and in fact, the ruling-class *consciously*
starves society generally, of resources -- in order to maintain _precisely_
this sort of control over us). Even now, the heroic 'cool' days of Silicon
Valley (more myth, than anything) are essentially over: and the usual
corporate interests _assert_ those interests more and more, in computer
technology. They DO want a ROI.

However, that 'cool' model of 'hip', enlightened, Yuppie investors does not
appear to work in such a chance-y field as cold fusion research. Too much
'up-front' risk, right?

We require a steady, *public* -- OPEN -- source of funding: and should
commensurately be demanding the public OPEN release of any and all
scientific theoretical and research findings.





>
> In short, it is possible to "keep it out of the grubby clutches of
> moneyed-interests" and at the same time provide a decent return on
> investment in a vehicle for continuing R funding -- which does not demand
> that the inventor has to subsidize his own efforts.
>
> The end result can be win-win, whereas a complete abdication of IP is not
> going to be as efficient. In fact, it is brain-dead in the era of patent
> trolls. I think MFMP realizes this dynamic.
>

This is pie-in-the-sky, AFAIC. The World does not work this way. Or not for
long, anyway. Mixing in 'patent trolls' at the end here is only obfuscating
the issue: the primacy, Über Alles, of 'private property', in our barbaric
times -- and its crushing effect upon true 'innovation'.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:
>
> Mary Yugo said he was contacted by investors looking to verify Rossi.
He told them what to test for, and Rossi never had anything to do with
them.   The only way Rossi is going to find an investor now is to have the
darned thing tested with true independence, like an investor bringing you
along.   So this is a healthy thing.



A significant portion of Humanity has other ideas about the health value of
letting capitalist 'investors' run amok across the surface of the Planet --
'legally' or otherwise. Anyone seeing the involvement of vulture
capitalists in heterodox fyzix research as being a 'healthy thing' -- given
the wretched history of it all -- really should go see a doctor.

Better to end up on Patreon, or somesuch.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 1:01 AM, Lennart Thornros <lenn...@thornros.com>
wrote:

> The whole discussion after the TRAIL is useless. Accusations between
> vorts, discussions trying to determine how Rossi is a fraud or not - all of
> counter productive.
> Rossi has a small window to show that he has something. His ethics need no
> analysis. Rossi as a person is of little interest if the focus is LENR.
> The only that came out of this lawsuit was that nobody has picked up a
> path to a commercial LENR.
> The interest in LENR has gone down as it obviously still is no solution.
> Still the interest exceeds what was before Rossi's appearance in this
> field.
> I suggest to change the focus to possible solutions and let Rossi return
> with his better mousetrap when or if he has one.
>

(I just saw a better mousetrap on Youtube, BTW.)


The issue IS the crass, obsessive focus on creating a commercial 'product'
-- and NOT the Science. Andrea Rossi himself is _wholly_ responsible for
that failing, here. OTOH, anyone _should_ be able to see that the Science
ALWAYS should have come first -- especially in such a bold, pioneering and
high-stakes sphere -- but DIDN'T: and this yet another attempt at crass
commercialization IS the essential reason WHY this latest episode ends in
wretched failure (assuming cold fusion is not simply a canard), and in
acrimonious recriminations which only hurt the scientific side of the
matter: the ONLY side which really matters.

People should simply be turning to the likes of the Martin Fleischmann
Memorial Project, and putting their bets THERE. In OPEN Science.








> Lennart
>
> On Jul 9, 2017 19:03, "Che" <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!
>>>
>>
>> That is not what I would call a cogent response, but I appreciate the
>> brevity of it. You needn't say more, since your responses are canned and
>> never deviate from party doctrine.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
> We are following an old script, here. If you want to pretend there's an
> actual dialog going on, feel free. Just don't pretend to the others that
> you're 'winning' something here, OK?
>
> In any case: the political-economic aspects of the Rossi fiasco are every
> bit as 'cogent' as the fyzix and engineering. At this point -- even more so.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:
>
> I think the key is to just find nuclear products when you throw hydrogen
and nickel together.   There is no chemical reaction that is supposed to
lead to nuclear products.   3 years ago, MFMP found gamma rays and then
just blithely started chasing ghosts.

To keep such a risky public research project on-course would require that
it constantly allow for the democratic, 'Open Source' equivalent of 'peer
review'.

I seems perhaps this component is what the MFMP is missing. Perhaps not. I
barely follow this stuff, sadly.
But I DO know political-economy more than most.

More than Jed, for sure.

Re: [Vo]:LENR Insights from Proton 21

[Che]

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 3:10 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> http://rexresearch.com/stuff/stuff7/adamenko.pdf
>


There is another assumption connected with these sections and it refers to
> cosmology. It is known that there is a great quantity of "dark" matter in
> the universe, and it cannot be detected by ordinary tools. It is possible
> that the "black holes" we observed are part of this matter. It may be made
> of the nuclei of super heavy elements.
> Display More
>

Such a fact would appear to militate against the 'Young Universe' 'Big
Bang' theory, wouldn't it..? It would take a LOT of time to build up such a
huge mass of trans-uranic elements thruout the Kosmos...

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:
>
> Rossi is the latest LENR guy who has $signs in his eyes.   Patterson was
a solid example of that.   I like the hope that MFMP offers to circumvent
that problem.   As soon as they verify a LENR experiment that many who have
the means can do in our garages, the cat is out of the bag.

A lot of people here sneer at the MFMP, for some reason... and yet
*PUBLIC*, Open-Source Science is the ONLY way forward for a truly 'free'
Humanity. NOT 'private property', 'Free Markets' and 'patents', and all
that most-dubious, proprietary, claim-jumping, patent-trolling 'capitalist'
opportunist shite.





> MIT Professor Hagelstein was going to sell NANORs for a few thousand
dollars but that appears to have gone nowhere.

Me and a few others are still waiting to buy our Orbos. What's with all
this starry-eyed initial promise, just up and always disappearing once
*money* becomes the apparent object..?

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!
>>
>
> That is not what I would call a cogent response, but I appreciate the
> brevity of it. You needn't say more, since your responses are canned and
> never deviate from party doctrine.
>
> - Jed
>
>
We are following an old script, here. If you want to pretend there's an
actual dialog going on, feel free. Just don't pretend to the others that
you're 'winning' something here, OK?

In any case: the political-economic aspects of the Rossi fiasco are every
bit as 'cogent' as the fyzix and engineering. At this point -- even more so.

Re: Fw: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 2:26 AM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:
>
> The classic case is the Aztecs.   They were taken out over a few short
months in a military engagement from a vastly outnumbered force, not by
disease.


There are a lot of factors involved in any historical developments -- most
all of them acting non-linearly. For instance, the spanish 'Conquista'
would not have proceeded as easily -- spectacularly -- as it did in México,
if the Aztecs were not actually holding a tenuous balance-of-power over
other, resentful peoples: who joined-in with the spanish to attack the
mexicas. The spanish had plenty of experience in intrigue and duplicity and
bribery, etc. Europa was full of it. The spanish had a well-blooded,
experienced military structure, having begun in Afrika and the Canary
Islands... etc. The balance of forces _favored_ any powerful outsider
coming in to stir things up.

So if the Aztecs had been in a stronger position -- the Conquista would
have taken a different course; but the outcome would *still* have been much
the same, in the end. At a longer, larger scale (i.e., the spanish might
not have gotten such a large empire out of the process, etc.)



>
>
> On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 5:20 AM, Brian Ahern  wrote:
>>
>> The Spanish had cholera. It was 100 times as effective as gunpowder.

Re: [Vo]:Picking up the pieces

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 9:01 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> What the Rossi experiments has shown over many years is that LENR in a
lattice is not workable because the reaction cannot be controlled. This
lack of control makes the E-Cat technology untenable. Rossi has realized
this and Rossi is will to let this knowhow fadeaway. The LENR reaction
wants to operate at the boiling point of the metal lattice (nickel) which
is 3000K. LENR is based on activation of nanoparticles in a dusty plasma.
Rossi has struggled to control the LENR reaction at low temperatures but he
always fails because LENR would invariably get to 3000K and meltdown his
reactor. So Rossi finally decided to use reactor structural material that
doesn't melt at 3000K. This material must be an insulator that does not
melt at 3000K. Mills has stumbled on the same reaction and his SunCell runs
at the vapor point of silver at only 2200C. Mills has solved the meltdown
problem is another way, he justs runs everything as a liquid without any
containment. Holmlid is on to the same LENR mechanism. There is nothing
unusual with metalized hydrogen. In the LENR reaction, metalized hydrogen
acts like any other metallic nanoparticle.
>
>
> Using a lattice for LENR is a losing proposition. The dusty plasma
approach to the LENR reaction is the only way to go. I beleive that Rossi
has settled on a high temperature  tube material that works: boron nitride,
a transparent isolator whose melting point is 3000C.



First I've read this (because I barely follow this e-List). Let us hope the
issue is exactly this. But it begs another one: we don't KNOW these things
for sure, *because some/most/all of the actors involved ARE HIDING THESE
FACTS FROM THE PUBLIC*. Because: possibility of huge financial pay-off at
the end of all this Sturm-und-drang for *some* people (them). Also because,
alongside the loot, comes eternal glory for one or a small number of
self-interested individuals...


Point being: this is not Science. This is 'corporate research' : AFAIC the
very bane of Science and the scientific method.
Not to mention being entirely egotistical and anti-democratic.

Re: [Vo]:Picking up the pieces

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:
>
> There is one conclusion that can be drawn.  Rossi submitted all kinds of
information to the court docket, under oath.   The claim against him was
fraud.
>
> The legal burden of proof in a civil case is "preponderance of the
evidence".   IH obviously couldn't even meet that level of proof.
>
> The legal burden of proof in a criminal case is much higher, "beyond a
reasonable doubt".   So if IH couldn't meet the lower standard there is no
chance Rossi is going to be prosecuted for fraud with all that juicy
evidence.  In effect, it is legal proof that Rossi is not a criminal fraud.


That's about the most cogent thing I've read on this e-List in a long time.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

They don't call Cold Fusion 'The New Fire', for no reason.

On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Frank Znidarsic  wrote:

> That's good Jed.  If you have read my work cold fusion is a step towards
> control of all of the natural forces.   I will have the same effect as
> Oersted's discovery of electromagnetic induction.
>
> Frank
>
> If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
> and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
> human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will --
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jed Rothwell 
> To: Vortex 
> Sent: Fri, Jul 7, 2017 6:37 pm
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned
>
> I wrote:
>
>
> If I succeed at promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I
> shall play an important role in changing the world more than Marxism and
> Capitalism combined.
>
>
> That sounds like hyperbole, but I mean it. I think that Marxism and
> capitalism are both on their way out. As we have discussed here, I think
> robots and intelligent computers will compel us to adapt a new form of
> economy that is neither capitalist or communist.
>
> Capitalism began around the year 1500, gradually replacing feudalism.
> Communism began around 1850. Both are now in their twilight. I expect that
> by 2100 we will have a new economic system. Unlike every previous system it
> will not mainly depend on the exchange of human labor for goods and
> services. It remains to be seen what it will be like. I hope it will be
> better for everyone, and better for the ecology, but you never know how
> things will turn out.
>
> If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
> and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
> human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will -- over the
> next few million years cold fusion should have roughly the same impact as
> the discovery of fire. Unless something better is discovered.
>
> People who have not read history have the notion that institutions such as
> capitalism, nation states, universities, corporations and so on have been
> part of society forever and they will always be with us. Actually, they are
> recent inventions and there is no reason to think they will continue
> centuries into the future. They will continue as long as people find them
> useful.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:

> One of the cool things about cold fusion in a 500 year outlook is that it
> makes for a very ineffective weapon.   Even fire is a more effective weapon.
>

Oooh... I don't know about that...




You know why potatoes became a crop of choice in Europe?   Because when a
> king's army sieged your castle and burned your crops, there were still
> potatoes in the ground that you could eat and you wouldn't starve to death.
>
>
> Why did the Spanish overtake a continent with a few thousand men while the
> Vikings were vanquished 500 years earlier?   Because the Spanish had
> FIREarms.   They had harnessed gunpowder (for evil purposes, albeit).
>

It was more because they had a more effective level of military and
bureaucratic organization. AND the weapons, of course. However, AND
logistical support which operated at a higher level than any
'pre-Colombian' society could muster.






>
>
> In 500 years there will be LENR cars, widespread cheap desalination, and
> Cold Fusion powered spacecraft.
>


In 500 years -- assuming much -- people will NOT be driving cars of ANY
sort. There will be appropriate levels of mass transportation. If there is
some requirement for a personal vehicle, at some times -- such a vehicle
will be made available, assuredly, for whatever length of time is required.
'Desalination' WILL be a moot point, in a World run on 'holistic',
NON-capitalist methods

But sure. Spacecraft.



And Jed is *still* laffably wrong.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!

Great work, Jed.




On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> I wrote:
>
>
>> If I succeed at promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I
>> shall play an important role in changing the world more than Marxism and
>> Capitalism combined.
>>
>
> That sounds like hyperbole, but I mean it. I think that Marxism and
> capitalism are both on their way out. As we have discussed here, I think
> robots and intelligent computers will compel us to adapt a new form of
> economy that is neither capitalist or communist.
>
> Capitalism began around the year 1500, gradually replacing feudalism.
> Communism began around 1850. Both are now in their twilight. I expect that
> by 2100 we will have a new economic system. Unlike every previous system it
> will not mainly depend on the exchange of human labor for goods and
> services. It remains to be seen what it will be like. I hope it will be
> better for everyone, and better for the ecology, but you never know how
> things will turn out.
>
> If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
> and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
> human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will -- over the
> next few million years cold fusion should have roughly the same impact as
> the discovery of fire. Unless something better is discovered.
>
> People who have not read history have the notion that institutions such as
> capitalism, nation states, universities, corporations and so on have been
> part of society forever and they will always be with us. Actually, they are
> recent inventions and there is no reason to think they will continue
> centuries into the future. They will continue as long as people find them
> useful.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Picking up the pieces

[Che]

> The Swedes have arguably lost as much as Rossi in having ruined careers
> over their mistakes at Lugano. Yet, even now they have the incentive, skill
> and the resources to replicate, but have failed to do so.
>

How is it that scientists should ruin entire careers, simply over having
been wrong about facts..? But this is NOT really just or all about Science
now, is it? It's about MONEY (and all the bourgeois ego life that goes
along with the chasing after of that). Only one's position in
'Establishment Science' would be ruined, in this scenario: and
'Establishment Science' is exactly the dog-in-the-manger, as regards cold
fusion (and a lot else).

So on the one hand, 'Heterodox Science' rails against Establishment Science
blocking cold fusion research... but on the other hand -- it appears to be
more-or-less accepting of the modus operandi of Establishment Science, as
regards the policing of scientists. And of Science.

Seems to be a contradiction here.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:

> Yup, this is just the first battle in the patent wars.   It will last
> decades until some billionaire steps in.
>

Oligarchic 'Capitalism' (parasitism) does not HAVE decades.

But maybe none of the rest of us do, either.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 8:57 PM, Kevin O'Malley <kevmol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Celani detected gamma rays when Rossi's reactor got started, and Rossi
> came down hard on him for bringing a Geiger counter.   So yes, there was a
> Nuclear event occuring in Rossi's apparatus for at least that short time.
>


Right. And the heat. And the steam. All the witnesses and glowing (pun
intended) reports. Etc. So it is most reasonable to assume that Rossi did
not get as far as he did by simple fraudulent calculation, afterthought --
as some people here so easily now assume (no doubt because it simplifies
their mental processes on the subject into convenient, manichean black &
white imagery).

And so why then, is 'LENR' -- cold fusion -- a dead letter, now..? If it
such a real, material phenomenon?

All this proprietary secrecy is what is *really* leaving everyone in the
lurch, here. And it amazes (uh, not really) that so many people here just
do not want to draw the proper conclusions about involving 'private
interests' in basic scientific research -- simply because money is
otherwise so very hard to come by, in this Neoliberal age of oligarchic
plundering of our entire society.





>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Alain Sepeda <alain.sep...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I with the crook will be prevented to be a nuisance again...
>>> whoever you think it is (I have an opinion).
>>>
>>
>> I truly doubt matters are that simple.
>>
>> Was there, or was there not, cold fusion occurring, in Rossi's apparatus?
>> At any time?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

In case youse hadn't noticed -- this ENTIRE saga has moved FAR, far beyond
mere scientific research (no surprise, there). This little drama involves,
politics. It involves 'The Law'. It involves public relations, popular
Science, and not a few other contexts.

So it does NOT make some people here look as good as they think they do, to
be carefully cherry-picking how they want to spin these events in their own
narrow interests.




On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 5:57 PM, Frank Znidarsic  wrote:

> i agree with Jed.
>
> I myself played a leading role in attacking Rossi at LENR Forum. If you
> accuse me of being opposed to cold fusion or being duped somehow to think
> there is problem with Rossi where no such problem exists, I say you are
> contemptible, you know nothing about me, and you have not contributed
> anything to this field compared to me.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jed Rothwell 
> To: Vortex 
> Sent: Fri, Jul 7, 2017 5:20 pm
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled
>
> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> As produced by IH, the spin, astroturfing and propaganda that LENR has
> seen is just a foretaste of the effort that will be put forward by the
> oil/gas/coal/wind/solar industries when LENR goes public.
>
>
> Axil: You said that he has not read the Penon report. So you know nothing
> about Rossi's claims and you have no business discussing them or
> criticizing what I and others say. We know what Rossi claims, and you
> don't, so shut up.
>
> I expect opposition if cold fusion goes public, but there has been NO
> spin, astroturfing and propaganda from I.H. They had no need for that. They
> were not happy with what there was.
>
> I myself played a leading role in attacking Rossi at LENR Forum. If you
> accuse me of being opposed to cold fusion or being duped somehow to think
> there is problem with Rossi where no such problem exists, I say you are
> contemptible, you know nothing about me, and you have not contributed
> anything to this field compared to me.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Picking up the pieces

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Adrian Ashfield 
wrote:

>
> According to Abd... "All claims dropped on both sides. It is as if the
> suit was never filed.
>
> The IP and license are not mentioned. As Rossi was apparently pleased I
> deduce something has changed in the ownership of the IP or the multi
> country license.
> As IH claimed the above were valueless it would be hard for them to object
> to them reverting to Rossi.  It was rumored that Rossi actually offered to
> buy them back earlier.
> If either the E-Cat or QuarkX work, this would be worth more than the $89
> million.
>
> I know you and others have made up your minds that Rossi never had
> anything that worked, but I find that conclusion premature.  If either work
> he may get the last laugh.
>


This myopic, narrow obsession with 'Intellectual Property' is the WHOLE
reason why this entire process has failed -- assuming cold fusion is a
material reality, in its own right. But that is at _least_ as much Andrea
Rossi's egotistical, money-grubbing fault, as anyone's.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 12:08 AM, Daniel Rocha <danieldi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You don't know how to answer that, because that is the plain truth.
>
> 2017-07-06 23:49 GMT-03:00 Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>> Blah, blah, blah... not worth replying to.
>> WTF am I ignoring. You're just trying to score some dumb brownie points.
>>
>

People here do not want to see me get into a tiresome, useless argument
with a know-nothing anti-communist puhtz like you.
Simple.
Like you.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:

>  There was a software package called "cold fusion" which can obscure the
> results as well as the interest.  LENR needs to repackage their name.
> Maybe something like Anomalous Heating Event.
>


LENR: 'Legitimate Engineering? Not Really".

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Daniel Rocha <danieldi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Che Trotsky, you are ignoring material conditions, we do not know how Cold
> Fusion works, and historical conditions, that is, we are in capitalism and
> cold fusion is not trusted. Even in whatever form of socialism you
> subscribe, you'd have to either convince many other workers to see the
> importance of this subject. Just because you have a system where the rule
> of value does not apply, it doesn't mean science and scientists will work
> any differently.
>

Blah, blah, blah... not worth replying to.
WTF am I ignoring. You're just trying to score some dumb brownie points.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 9:55 PM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Jesus Christ, you bourgeois types... the POINT is to CHANGE the World: a
>> concept you people ARE most absolutely unfamiliar with.
>>
>
> I have probably done more to change the world with computers than you
> have. Not always in good ways, but I had an impact. If I succeed at
> promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I shall play an
> important role in changing the world more than Marxism and Capitalism
> combined.
>
> Plus I expect I know more history than you do, especially the history of
> Japan and China.
>


You'd be a fool to generalize those thoughts. But my whole life I've had to
deal with opinionated middle-class types like you.






>
>
> Anything real will NOT really die. Stop thinking so short-term and
>> personal interest.
>>
>
> Many real things have been discovered and then forgotten. Some were
> rediscovered, such as Mendelian genetics. There is no doubt that other
> discoveries and technologies were lost for good, because we have no idea
> how ancient people managed to do some of the things they did. When the
> University of Manchester set about recreating a partial scale working copy
> of the Newcomen engine, they discovered a great about it that had been
> forgotten.
>
> We have no idea how many discoveries, ideas and techniques have been lost
> because . . . they are lost. Trying to account for them is like the old
> joke about the absent minded professor telling students, "anyone absent
> today should please raise your hand."
>
> - Jed
>

As I said: apologia. In the worst sense of that word.

What's REAL is REAL, fella.
QED

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Scientific research should not be a popularity contest, right?
>>
>
> Perhaps it should not be, but alas, it is. We have to deal with the real
> world as it is, not as we might wish it to be. That concept seems somewhat
> alien to you.
>


Jesus Christ, you bourgeois types... the POINT is to CHANGE the World: a
concept you people ARE most absolutely unfamiliar with. To be charitable.




>
>
> *Especially* considering the funding circus that the usual 'vested
>> interests' have prostituted it into (like much else in life).
>>
>
> I doubt it.
>
>
>
>> If I were you people, this development would be almost my least concern
>> at the moment.
>>
>
> If people lose all interest in cold fusion, the research will die along
> with the few scientists now doing it.
>

Anything real will NOT really die. Stop thinking so short-term and personal
interest.







> So what does this say about all those people who've insisted that we stop
>> using the term 'cold fusion', because it is 'needlessly provocative'[sic]
>> -- and who came up with this 'LENR' euphemism . . .
>>
>
> I know the people who came up with the term LENR. It wasn't intended as a
> euphemism but rather as a more scientifically accurate way to describe the
> phenomenon. In any case, euphemisms never work. They quickly take on the
> negative connotations of the word they replace. That is why people come up
> with an endless series of words to describe, for example, privy, WC,
> toilet, bathroom, men's room, etc.
>
> - Jed
>
>
Bulldada. Evasion. Clearly so.

I continue to claim hypocrisy. And you've further proved it for me, here,
now, AFAIC.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:41 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> I am sorry to report that there has been a considerable decline in
> interest in cold fusion. The number of Google alerts about the subject is
> far lower than it used to be. The number of people reading papers at
> LENR-CANR.org is down. The numbers usually goes down in summer when
> students take a break from universities, but this year the numbers are
> particularly low. See:
>

Scientific research should not be a popularity contest, right? *Especially*
considering the funding circus that the usual 'vested interests' have
prostituted it into (like much else in life). If I were you people, this
development would be almost my least concern at the moment.





> http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=1213
>
> Results from Google Ngram are less conclusive. Apparently the term "LENR"
> meant something in the 19th century and it was for more common than it is
> today. Both "LENR" and the phrase "cold fusion" have fallen in popularity.
>

So what does this say about all those people who've insisted that we stop
using the term 'cold fusion', because it is 'needlessly provocative'[sic]
-- and who came up with this 'LENR' euphemism, to replace it ..?

Bah. So much for these smart people...

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Alain Sepeda 
wrote:

> I with the crook will be prevented to be a nuisance again...
> whoever you think it is (I have an opinion).
>

I truly doubt matters are that simple.

Was there, or was there not, cold fusion occurring, in Rossi's apparatus?
At any time?

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:

> I think that, because things were kept in secret, it will keep going with,
> perhaps, more steam (pun intended, LOL!!!).
>

Secrecy -- the utter bane of scientific research AND democracy -- is wholly
a factor in all these undertakings because of the concomitant *'private
property' interests* involved. NONE of this research should be left to
money-grubbing private interests. An easy bet could have been made that
things _would_ go south with this particular project -- once this 'vulture
capitalist' interest became involved.

People here sneer at the likes of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial
Project... but say what you will: its very OPEN [Source] nature is what
*will* at least keep it out of the grubby clutches of moneyed-interests.

Andrea Rossi was _always_ making a fundamental mistake by 'chasing the
money' from the get-go.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi versus Darden trial settled

[Che]

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:

> Everyone will have an opinion, but the details are not public. I suspect
> that some of the details will seep out over time.
>
> My take on the major factor which led to the withdrawal of claims is that
> Rossi's attorney finally realized that he could not ethically put Rossi on
> the stand and let Rossi testify to those details which were in the
> deposition but which were so obviously false - such as the imaginary heat
> exchanger, the imaginary customer with the imaginary product which used up
> so much imaginary heat, and the imaginary ERV report.
>
> Subornation of perjury would ruin his career.



Is this take of yours above based on any real, plausible analysis of the
situation and facts, or just your opinion on Rossi in general..?

I really have no opinion or knowledge of any particular facts concerning
this OTOH typical and obvious cruddy, squabbling, ego-ridden,
money-grubbing falling out, one way or the other.

Re: [Vo]:A forgotten chapter in LENR

[Che]

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> Time symmetry requires that the laws of nature operate the same when time
> goes either forward or backwards.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_translation_symmetry
>


This typical thinking assumes much. Like 'doing the math' actually reflects
the Reality.

That is why we (for instance) have to put up with nonsense like
0-dimensional 'singularities' and the like...

Re: [Vo]:A forgotten chapter in LENR

[Che]

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

IMHO, the person who has done the best work is Keith A. Fredericks at
> http://restframe.com/
>
>
> Keith does not know what he is seeing has comes about, but he does
> understand how the metalized hydride behaves.
>
> Keith thinks that the energy loaded metalized hydride crystal is a
> tachyon.
>


How can time -- motion, that is -- have a 'negative' aspect..?

Re: [Vo]:Rossi v. Darden

[Che]

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 2:32 AM, Lennart Thornros 
wrote:

I personally believe that Rossi has at least ideas about how to make LENR
> work, possibly he has a solution. Let him reveal that. He has promised
> after the trial to show us. Rossi looks not as a fraudster to me. He act as
> a passionate entrepreneur in my opinion. It is required to be an optimist
> to get that kind of label. Sometimes the entrepreneurial spirit contains a
> teaspoon of wishful thinking as you call it. It can be labeled vision also.
>

Whether most of the people here accept it or not, it's damned obvious that
the intrusion of *capitalist relations* into scientific research is
_exactly_ what has produced this whole mess -- and many, many others -- in
the first place. And money-grubbing capitalist mischief-making ONLY enters
into the equation at all, because scientific research *is* -- *personally*
-- horrifically monetarily expensive.

But: it does not HAVE to be, eh?

Re: [Vo]:Rossi v. Darden

[Che]

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 9:44 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

>
>
> It seems that Rossi has spent his adult life cultivating such people and
> then stealing from them. Unfortunately, in the course of doing this, he may
> have destroyed the last hope of funding for cold fusion. Unless the Texas
> Tech project pans out, this time cold fusion may be gone for good. It will
> be forgotten.
>
> - Jed
>



If cold fusion is objectively real -- it cannot *ever* be actually
forgotten -- let alone _remain_ forgotten.
Especially in this day and age of the Internet and mass communications.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi v. Darden

[Che]

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:

But ... the big issue is this: can an ill-conceived contract be interpreted
> by a jury to overlook the actual results (to imply that only the ERV's
> conclusion matters, not the substance of the report) ?
>
>
The World runs the way it does, precisely _because_ 'the letter of the law'
(here, contract law) trumps ALL other considerations. Even life & death.

(The only real caveat to this 'iron law' being: who wields _more_ power, on
which side of any contract..?)

Re: [Vo]:Rossi v. Darden

[Che]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 9:45 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Kevin O'Malley  wrote:
>
>
>> There aren't that many rules over here on Vortex but even still, some
>> of your more vociferous and full-of-shit members over there have been
>> banned from Vortex, like MaryYugo.
>>
>
> Frankly, I do not understand why people are bothered by Mary Yugo. She
> seems harmless to me. More polite than many skeptics. She reminds me of
> Groucho Marx singing "Whatever it is, I'm against it."
>
> Some people claim she is a he. Surely that doesn't count for anything in
> the 21st century. It is almost commonplace. I don't think much of internet
> anonymity or people giving themselves fake names, but if they are going do
> that, I don't care if they reverse genders or name themselves after comic
> book characters or chemical elements or what-have-you.
>
> - Jed
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtMV44yoXZ0
>


Wasn't she accused of representing certain corporate interests, at one
point?

Re: [Vo]:Rossi v. Darden

[Che]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:50 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:

> Comments get moved to another thread without notification.
> Commenters can get put "on probation" without notification.   You
> yourself are a moderator but it doesn't say that on your title.   You
> allow insults from some people but not others in a one-sided fashion,
> again without notification.   So those of us who would like to go over
> there will have to jump through your unpublished moderation guidelines
> in order to avoid "probation".
>
> There aren't that many rules over here on Vortex but even still, some
> of your more vociferous and full-of-shit members over there have been
> banned from Vortex, like MaryYugo.
>

MaryYugo..? I'm shocked, SHOCKED to read that she has ruffled feathers.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi v. Darden

[Che]

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

>
> Eric Walker wrote:
>
> I don't think our approach has resulted in a skewing of the narrative
> relating to the Rossi v. Darden story, except to filter out people who are
> only seeking to pick a fight.  Even those people's views have not been
> suppressed, merely moved to a separate thread where they will not derail
> the main thread.
>
> From what I've seen Eric, you have done a good job in a polarized
> environment which seems to be every bit as toxic as the political arena has
> become these days.
>
> The ironic thing is that most of us came to this little corner of
> Cyberspace because we wanted Rossi (or anyone else it ) to pull it off - to
> have broken through the technological barrier.  That barrier would consist
> of low power and unreliably.
>
> Taking a QM effect of hydrogen and scaling it up a thousandfold to
> kilowatts 24/7 is what the planet needs. We desperately wanted it to be
> done this time - and were seduced to think it had been. Now it looks like
> another big disappointment awaits in Miami. There will be no winners.
>


I am so utterly disappointed as well,  as are so many of you.
Still -- taking the 'long view' is the thing.

Re: [Vo]:People are worried: Amazon will replace Whole Foods workers with robots

[Che]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

>
> If replacing workers with robots was Amazon's main angle, they would have
> been better off going for Safeway or that type of mass merchant. why?
> ...putting cans of soup on a shelf seems like a much easier challenge to
> robotize than picking out the nicest veggies.
>
> I think Amazon's main angle, or one of them, is to have a lot of places
> where well-heeled shoppers can be counted on to be there a couple of times
> a week... allowing them to order (via mobile phone) and in many cases
> pickup their Amazon goods when they are grocery shopping and without
> sending a delivery truck out. Delivery is the last big cost factor to
> address. Amazon Prime has helped but they can make more on the
> entertainment, if they can shift the some delivery cost back a less costly
> avenue.
>
> Amazon and Walmart are trying to maximize every little part of the retail
> transaction but in the end, my money would be on Amazon as their online
> capability is so huge.
>
> Axil Axil wrote:
>
> vhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/16/
> people-are-worried-amazon-will-replace-whole-foods-
> workers-with-robots/?utm_term=.8da06e571e18
>
>
>

I'm sure Amazon's first order of business is building an online clientele
for fresh produce and groceries.
What can be automated later, will be. Later.

Re: [Vo]:People are worried: Amazon will replace Whole Foods workers with robots

[Che]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> vhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/16/
> people-are-worried-amazon-will-replace-whole-foods-
> workers-with-robots/?utm_term=.8da06e571e18
>


I'll state it again in this forum (in spite of the knee-jerk anti-communism
around here, and most everywhere else in the U.S. and bourgeois society):

The core logic of capitalism has an INNATE flaw: the *requirement* to
compete (even considering monopoly interests) -- which *forces* the
competing 'capital pools' to *automate* production, in order to drive down
costs. And while cost-per-unit does indeed fall with automation -- the
worker becoming more and more superfluous to the process, as is intended --
**so does the rate-of-profit as well**: because, as we should *all* know --
it is the *Surplus-Labor* of the worker which IS the source of the
Industrialists' profit...

And so we have an _essential_ contradiction here. And the thing about
essential contradictions is -- they are insurmountable.
In spite of ENDLESS, hysterical, brow-beating propaganda to the contrary.

Re: [Vo]:JCMNS Vol. 23 uploaded

[Che]

On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Bob Higgins  wrote:
>
>
>> My primary observation about the Budko-Korshunov experiment(s) is that it
>> is reporting on a variable space that has never been reported to show XH.
>>
>
> I hope you are right.
>
> You should inform the authors.
>
> - Jed
>
>
How many thousands of variables have to be accounted for, in cold
fusion..?? Where's the list or lists?

Doesn't have to be complete. Just started.