Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

On 05/30/2016 06:11 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Mon, 30 May 2016 12:57:15 -0400: Hi, [snip] Right, for sure, but seriously, anybody who watched Space Angel as a kid knows you can't just let a solar mirror point anyplace it wants -- you're just

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: If the thing had a 'defocussed' mode one could even imagine spotting a few > temperature sensors around the towers to automatically shut it down in the > case of poor aim. > Seems within the realm of possibility. If

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Mon, 30 May 2016 12:57:15 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Right, for sure, but seriously, anybody who watched Space Angel as a kid >knows you can't just let a solar mirror point anyplace it wants -- >you're just asking to have your headquarters burned to a crisp

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

In reply to ChemE Stewart's message of Mon, 30 May 2016 00:02:57 -0400: Hi, [snip] Lightning on bright sunny days is very rare. ;) >You guys are ignoring all of the mechanical and structural challenges of >pointing 350,000, 30 foot mirrors at the ground using worm gears and >stepper motors that

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Right, for sure, but seriously, anybody who watched Space Angel as a kid knows you can't just let a solar mirror point anyplace it wants -- you're just asking to have your headquarters burned to a crisp while the bad guys escape. As I said to start with, you don't really need to point them

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Pay me $2 Bil and I will build you something that produces photons and takes up much less than 4000 acres You give these guys way too much credit On Monday, May 30, 2016, Jones Beene wrote: > Speaking of a cross between Fuku and towering inferno, with a few thousand >

RE: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Speaking of a cross between Fuku and towering inferno, with a few thousand light sabers thrown-in … think about using all those mirrors as a renewable propellant … That’s right, propellant. You don’t really think that electricity was the only goal here, do you? Maybe there was something

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Actually, banks of mirrors are all controlled though one load center at Ivanpah. load centers are distributed throughout the field. One well directed lightning strike at a load center will kill power to many mirrors. Think of the increased negative economics of doubling the power redundancy to

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

ChemE Stewart wrote: You guys are ignoring all of the mechanical and structural challenges of > pointing 350,000, 30 foot mirrors at the ground using worm gears and > stepper motors that have just lost power due to a storm and/or lightning > strike. No motor power, no

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

You guys are ignoring all of the mechanical and structural challenges of pointing 350,000, 30 foot mirrors at the ground using worm gears and stepper motors that have just lost power due to a storm and/or lightning strike. No motor power, no movement. The fuel source (the sun) keeps moving up

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Sat, 28 May 2016 17:18:24 -0400: Hi, [snip] >It ought to be possible to build the things with a fail-safe mode >wherein loss of power results in the mirrors defocussing. Shouldn't be >hard; the /hard/ thing, presumably, is getting them all pointing

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

It ought to be possible to build the things with a fail-safe mode wherein loss of power results in the mirrors defocussing. Shouldn't be hard; the /hard/ thing, presumably, is getting them all pointing at the _same_ spot. Making them /not/ do that should be easy. And locking them in place,

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Fatal flaw: Lock mirrors in the morning for maintenance or lose power to mirror motors but the sun keeps rising, thus the focal focal point of up to 300 MW's of thermal flux moves down the tower, torching it. Enough heat to collapse a tower under the right conditions.

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Oh noes, solar power incident results in . burnt tower. This is why solar power is the solution to everything. On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 6:31 AM, ChemE Stewart wrote: > Oops, Default > > Oops, Fire > > >

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Oops, Default Oops, Fire http://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/ivanpah-solar-plant-catches-fire-but-taxpayers-get-burned/ Oops On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > >> The taxpayers will get their money back eventually. The

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Jed, There is a Swedish say; "Venture capital is not for widows and orphans." (Perhaps a little off the political correct scale but has some relevance . . .) If the government gets involved then they actually do involve people who for one reason or the other should not take that kind of risk. As,

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Lennart Thornros wrote: Your faith in government is disturbing because that kind of mindset is what > allows this totally immoral and unaccounted for misuse of the taxpayer's > money. > Such as the development of railroads, steamships, aviation, highways, subways, city

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Jed, I am not bragging but I actually have studied some history. That, however, is not important. I have experience from real life and that counts. You say I have no data to back up my statements! Did you read about the Swedish pension funds I wrote about? However, that is no so important

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Yes, because the government paid for it. Also organized it. The scientists > could not have done what they did without the government. > ​ Any organization could have done that. It would be better if there at > least

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Lennart Thornros wrote: The fact as you call it is; scientists has made a lot of progress since the > renaissance and you want the government to have the credit for that. > Yes, because the government paid for it. Also organized it. The scientists could not have done what

RE: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

From: ChemE Stewart * OOPS DEFAULT * http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2015/12/15/nrg-ivanpah-faces-chance-of-default-PGE-contract Just to avoid any wrong implications, Stewart - any default would be a bookkeeping adjustment for Google’s tax purposes. Solar is growing rapidly in Cal. and

RE: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

There is a recently funded (ARPA-E) technology which could push solar into higher demand by lowering cost per kW. It is a “brilliant” idea, so to speak. There are two primary methods for using sunlight: direct conversion to electricity using photovoltaics, or focusing sunlight onto a fluid that

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Mirrors last a long time in the desert? With wind and sand blowing? 375,000 motors turning? Taxpayers paid $1.6B for this plant, Google is a minority. BTW this plant burns natural gas...

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 30 Dec 2015 10:03:42 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Arizona State U is developing a hybrid solar energy system that modifies the >single axis CSP “trough” design, converting the mirrored trough with solar >cells that collect direct rays while reflecting the rest of

RE: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Looking at the super bright incandescence of the tower of the CSP station at Ivanpah (makes a nice screensaver) also brings to mind another possible hybrid… plasmonics. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.6949 “Plasmonic materials for energy: from physics to applications” by Svetlana Boriskina of MIT.

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

ChemE Stewart wrote: Mirrors last a long time in the desert? With wind and sand blowing? They last for a remarkably long time. Many of the SEGS parabolic mirror generators in the Mojave desert have been working since the late 1980s and they are still in good condition. The

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

I wrote: > The taxpayers will get their money back eventually. The power companies > are not going to stop buying electricity from this installation. They may > renegotiate the price . . . > Source: I think I read this at Renewable Energy World, but I cannot find the article. Anyway, that is

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

OOPS DEFAULT http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2015/12/15/nrg-ivanpah-faces-chance-of-default-PGE-contract On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > This is a 110 MW concentrating solar power (CSP) project in Nevada, with a > central tower, on 1,600 acres of land.

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

I hope that someone (Faraday Future, Tesla Motors, Apple) buys these things or The company. They should, right? Sent from some iDevice. Written by Esa. > On 30 Dec 2015, at 02:41, ChemE Stewart wrote: > > OOPS DEFAULT > >

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

There is no technical reason why CSP cannot become competitive with other technologies, especially if you factor in the cost in lives, health, and global warming from the alternatives such as coal and natural gas from fracking. Of course it is not competitive now. If I had a cold fusion

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: 1/ The power source is too diffuse, and the sun doesn't shine at night meaning you need a huge plant to produce significant power. This is 110 MW on 1,600 acres. That is excellent power density. Better than uranium fission or coal, when you

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

On Friday, June 15, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: 1/ The power source is too diffuse, and the sun doesn't shine at night meaning you need a huge plant to produce significant power. This is 110 MW on 1,600 acres. That is excellent power

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

1/ The power source is too diffuse, and the sun doesn't shine at night meaning you need a huge plant to produce significant power. This is 110 MW on 1,600 acres. That is excellent power density. Better than uranium fission or coal, when you take into account the land needed for the mines

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com wrote: This is 110 MW on 1,600 acres. That is excellent power density. Better than uranium fission or coal, when you take into account the land needed for the mines and railroads to transport the fuel. That is terrible power density. No, it isn't. As I

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: 100MW/year is about 70kg of thorium in a LFTR (about 250 times less than a conventional non-breeding uranium reactor requires), at average 6ppm there is about 70kg of thorium in the accessible column . . . Yes, thorium does have higher

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Details, details, details… There are some fundamental political as well as technical problems with the LFTR that take some of the luster off your high opinion of this technology. One of the most insidious is the desire of the LFTR advocacy crowd to require the use of 19.75% enriched U235 to

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Interesting, can you point me to any sources that discuss those issues? On 15 June 2012 21:11, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Details, details, details… There are some fundamental political as well as technical problems with the LFTR that take some of the luster off your high opinion of

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Start off with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle if you need more just ask. On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting, can you point me to any sources that discuss those issues? On 15 June 2012 21:11, Axil Axil

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

I meant to say: Solar availability and peak power are much better than WIND in the southwest because the peak coincides with the highest demand . . . In some parts of Europe, you get a lot of wind at night, when you least need electricity. You cannot store wind, coal or nuclear energy, except a

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Jed, Your problem is that you believe everything you read off those green energy blogs/flyers and believe it is true. The original Solar One and Solar Two Power Towers were moth-balled 20 years ago. Solar one used steam/water, Solar Two used molten salt. $1.6B/$2.2 Billion of government

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Your problem is that you believe everything you read off those green energy blogs/flyers and believe it is true. The original Solar One and Solar Two Power Towers were moth-balled 20 years ago. Yes. Things often go wrong with cutting edge

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

I was involved in a CSP project a few years back, and as much as I enjoyed the tech side of it I have to agree with you. Large scale CSP is probably cheaper than large scale PV, but after you factor in maintenance, fighting BANANAs ( Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything) and

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

You are right, the government should have given them 5 times as much money to prove that something 5 times more expensive than current generating technologies would cost 5 times as much to the consumer/taxpayer. The market for CSP(none) drove them out of business not the government. LENR has the

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com wrote: You are right, the government should have given them 5 times as much money to prove that something 5 times more expensive . . . Luz did not use much government money, and their 300 MW plant has been operating continuously at a profit since the 1980s,

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Jed, Is 10 billion enough to prove it is not cost effective? 20 billion? 50? I could have launched those tortoises into earth orbit for $56M in taxpayer money spent at Ivanpah relocaiting them I am not much for conspiracy theories although they are fun to read On Thursday, June 14, 2012, Jed

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Also, CSP is not radically new it has been around for 30 years awaiting government money, only the names have changed. If SEGS was so profitable why did Luz go bankrupt? On Thursday, June 14, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',

RE: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

From: Robert Lynn Assuming no LENR there is no chance of CSP being competitive with natural gas in the next few decades. Your bring up an interesting point, although it is not clear how you intended it. In fact, there could be synergy between

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

From the LENR/gamma experiments of Piantelli, it seems to me that the way gamma radiation is thermalized is provisional; sometimes gamma is thermalized and other times it is not. Rossi also had occasional gamma emission problems(at startup and shutdown) before he cured this condition. If

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com wrote: CSP is not radically new it has been around for 30 years awaiting government money, only the names have changed. If SEGS was so profitable why did Luz go bankrupt? I told you: it was a squeeze play. The power company and coal companies conspired

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

I wrote: [California's] Their laissez faire approach ended spectacularly with the Enron burn baby burn episodes, with billions of dollars vanishing into thin air. By the way, I would not say that was the fault of capitalism. What Enron and the legislators in California was not capitalism!

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Jed, I am an engineer and I like new technology as do many. The entire CSP market in California has been created from State Legislation, Federal grants, loans and subsidies. The market will dry up when those options go away again with changing adminstrations just as it did 25+ years ago. It is

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com wrote: I am an engineer and I like new technology as do many. Of course! But if you had to choose between a tried and true old method that works as well as a new one, I'll bet you would go with the old one. It is a safer choice. It is often a wistful