I don’t know, but I’ll speculate. Seems like XPIC is a simplified
case but must be done very well if you are going to get enough SNR for
4KQAM or whatever.
In XPIC you don’t have depolarization or multipath, so you get A with
a tiny bit of B mixed in, and B with a tiny bit of A mixed in. So the
adaptive filter may not have to do much more than figure out what
percent of B to subtract from A to cancel out the tiny amount of
contamination due to insufficient XPOL rejection in the antenna. Kind
of like noise cancelling headphones, where the noise is already a
small component, plus you know what the noise looks like.
Whereas with MIMO each input may be a whole bunch of both A and B,
plus delayed versions of each due to multipath. So the adaptive
filter needs to be more sophisticated to separate out the 2 totally
jumbled signals, plus have lots of taps to eliminate the multipath.
Or so I would guess.
*From:*Af [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *George Skorup
*Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2016 9:24 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
OK, let me make this clearer. I'm talking about FDD systems using one
channel *pair* only. You have a Tx hi and a Tx lo.
AF5 (not X) or 24/HD in FDD mode. Say AF24 running 24.1 Tx and 24.2
Rx. Vice versa for the opposite end. It's a "MIMO" radio system.
Now take traditional microwave vendor X. Same stuff. FDD. Tx hi both
polarities at one end, Tx low both polarities at the other. This is
called an "XPIC" radio system.
What is the difference between XPIC and MIMO?
Sounds to me like two guys named Pete and Peter walk into a bar. Is
the only difference their name, but they're actually the same guy
because Steve is drunk and has double vision? Or is Steve not that
drunk yet and the two guys are nearly identical twin brothers?
Basically, what the hell is the fundamental difference between the two?
On 10/24/2016 8:35 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
There's 2 diplexers per side, so that would be 2 channel pairs,
right? 2xTx 2xRx? MIMO-FD?
On Oct 24, 2016 8:32 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Yes, full duplex (as in using one channel for Tx & one for RX)
MIMO as in using both polarities.. yes
but as in using both channels to send & receive ... no not as
per their specs.
Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <tel:305%20663%205518%20x%20232>
Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <tel:%28305%29663-5518> Option 2 or
Email: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Josh Reynolds" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*To: *[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent: *Monday, October 24, 2016 8:51:52 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
AF11X actually has two internal radios if my understanding
of the platform is correct. It is Full Duplex + MIMO.
On Oct 24, 2016 7:03 PM, "Bill Prince"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
It's not 100% clear from your description, but the
AF11x is using both polarities.
The Mimosa is a very strange duck. Even using 2
channels and 2 polarities, there is no way to actually
run it full duplex. The high-latency half duplex is
pretty much baked in. IMO, it squanders air bandwidth
at the expense of cheapness. And it's highest
modulation rate is still only 256QAM. We had serious
trouble trying to even get 256QAM on a relatively
modest distance link.
bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
On 10/24/2016 4:28 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
I will take a crack at it... just to make sure
that My understanding is correct too.
In licensed radio world, the default lingo is as
follows:-
A single channel is actually two channels, one
channel is used to Transmit and the other channel
is used to receive.
and each of these channels pair can be either in
V polarity or H polarity (but not mingled).
XPIC is used to describe a radio where you can
mount two radios together, one using the H
polarity and the other using V polarity, but the
same channel...
But still only one channel (H + V) is used to
transmit and the other channel is used to Receive.
(Thus Full duplex)
MIMO...., = One Channel, both H & V polarities are
used, and either one can be used for Tx and Rx
(thus half duplex)
AF11x = Traditional Licensed radio... one
channel/polarity for TX and one channel/polarity
for RX
Mimosa B11 = Disruptive... a very odd animal...
can be configured as...
Use one channel (both polarities) for TX
and one channel (both polarities) for RX
or ... Use Two
Channels, both polarities in each channel, and use
either one to TX & RX (more like a dual channel MIMO)
AF5 = Uses one channel (both polarities) for
Tx and one channel (both polarities) for RX
AF24 = can be used as
One Channel (Dual Polarities) for TX and one
Channel (Dual Polarities) for RX
or can use the same one channel (dual
polarities) for Tx and Rx.
Hope this is as clear as mud !
:)
Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
<tel:305%20663%205518%20x%20232>
Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <tel:%28305%29663-5518>
Option 2 or Email: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"George Skorup" <[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>
*To: *[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent: *Monday, October 24, 2016 7:09:11 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz
system
What's so much different between XPIC and
MIMO? I'm asking because I guess I'm just
ignorant. MIMO = single carrier (is OFDM
implied?), dual streams? And XPIC = dual
carriers (is single-carrier QAM per channel
implied?) and independent streams that are
aggregated in hardware, perhaps as simple as a
LAG on the internal switch? Or does XPIC add
some more magic?
So then what is the UBNT AF11X considered? Or
the AF5 and 24 for that matter since they're
also capable of FDD.
On 10/24/2016 5:23 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
Can a non-vendor tell me if at higher
order modulations if there's limiting gain
from co-channel XPIC? I assume it works to
some degree because it's marketed (yes, I
have a tub of salt over here), but at some
point the modulations would be sensitive
enough where the X-pol isolation isn't
sufficient?
Okay, a vendor can if they're more
technical than salesy.
I'm not meaning to imply John was salesy.
;-)
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
<http://www.ics-il.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange
<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP
<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"John Seaman" <[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>
*To: *[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent: *Monday, October 24, 2016 3:55:17 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6
GHz system
Hi Ken, the Lynx and Orion are largely
identical. The biggest difference between
the two is that the Orion supports XPIC
where as the Lynx does not. Keep in mind
that either model can be set up for 2+0,
but only with the Orion can both radios
operate on the same channel. Other than
that, the Orion does offer higher TX power
(for certain frequencies) compared to the
Lynx. However with 6 GHz, the TX
frequency for Lynx and Orion are the
same. Orion also features SynchE/1588
functionality which is not found on the
Lynx. Both models now support buffer size
up to 8 MB.
*John Seaman **|** Sales **|****Trango
Systems, Inc. **|***
*+1-858-248-4006 <tel:+1-858-248-4006> *
***|***
*www.trangosys.com* <http://trangosys.com/>
/Trango Systems <http://www.trangosys.com/>/
//
/Innovating Microwave Backhaul//™/
On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Ken
Hohhof <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Jeremy, I’m trying to remember, can
you upgrade that Lynx to 2+0 with a
license key as long as you don’t need
XPIC? Trango doesn’t spell it out
very well on their website, but it
looks like the major differences
between Lynx and Orion are buffer
size, XPIC, and maybe the interface
and powering options? So that you
could still double the throughput as
long as you can license a different
frequency pair for the other
polarization. And the issue of the
wired interface speed.
*From:*Af [mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] *On
Behalf Of *Jeremy
*Sent:* Friday, October 21, 2016 10:16 PM
*To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Highest
capacity 6 GHz system
I don't know who has the biggest or
best, but my 6GHz Trango Apex Lynx has
been rock solid for going on four
years now. It does 700Mbps FDX. I
believe that the Trango Orion has XPIC
up to 1.5Gbps in a 56Mhz channel.
On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Josh
Reynolds <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Why in the world would they buy Exalt?
On Oct 21, 2016 8:10 PM, "Jaime
Solorza"
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
I thought Crisco bought out Exalt
On Oct 21, 2016 5:10 PM, "Ken
Hohhof" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I thought I got an ad
recently from Exalt about
a big sale through the end
of the year on Extreme Air
6Hz. Oops, I just found
the email, and it’s
everything but 6 GHz. Not
sure I’d buy Exalt anyway.
Maybe someone else was
having an overstock sale
on 6 GHz?
*From:*Af
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>]
*On Behalf Of
*[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Friday, October
21, 2016 5:50 PM
*To:* [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG]
Highest capacity 6 GHz system
First I have to find out
if there are channels in
this area.
Then I have a passive
repeater to deal with...
Not a simple path to
engineer.
*From:*Daniel White
*Sent:*Friday, October 21,
2016 4:33 PM
*To:*[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG]
Highest capacity 6 GHz system
Well you can only use
60MHz channels max. That
helps make it more
competitive.
6GHz most likely precludes
higher modulations… you
just won’t have the link
budget. Also depends if
you’re going all outdoor
or split-mount/all-indoor.
I’d be shocked if there is
a winner here – I’d go
with the solution your
most comfortable with.
My guess is you will end
up with Ceragon/Cambium or
SIAE. DragonWave Harmony
Advanced is certainly
worth a look, although I’m
not sure about 6GHz
availability since it just
started shipping.
Chuck feel free to contact
me offlist and we could
look at some things.
Daniel White
Managing Director –
Hardware Distribution Sales
ConVergence Technologies
Cell: +1 (303) 746-3590
<tel:%2B1%20%28303%29%20746-3590>
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
...
