I am familiar with Deutsch's work and writing pretty well... Deutsch's main claim to fame is his proof that
-- any finite quantum system can be simulated by a universal quantum computer -- universal quantum computers cannot compute anything beyond those same functions computable by ordinary Turing computers, though they can compute some of these functions vastly faster on the average case Your fixation on the specific mechanical format of the Turing machine is intellectually immature.... That is just one example of a universal computer capable of simulating any other computer, including (though with massive slowdown) a quantum computer Deutsch understands very well that there is no such thing as non-algorithmic programming... I don't agree with all his statements, but I find his position logically and conceptually coherent, unlike yours... However, I think it's possible your position actually is coherent inside your mind, and you just express it incoherently because you persist in using (i.e. largely abusing) a scientific and mathematical vocabulary you do not understand... -- Ben G On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > Ben, > > I suggest you do some creative thinking for the first time – not > re-reading old texts. If you wanna read, re-read Deutsch.... basically AGI > “needs to be nothing like a conventional program”. > > The revolutionary TM original paper is a simple paper that even a tech > idiot like me can understand – about a machine controlled by a simple old > tape. And it’s that simple level of thinking that is required in the first > place to rethink AI –and that I just started to give you. > > Perhaps the core mechanical idea – still by no means properly developed - > I’ve put forward is that the tape can’t be rigid (like your and algos > thinking) – it has to be in effect a rotating tape – like a dice - > offering many choices, not just one. But that’s just a v. crude stab at > only part of the idea for a TM2. For example, a TM2 has to be a robot with > a body, and thus able to go and physically look for new options in the > outside world. A TM box computer locked, in effect, in a Chinese room, will > never go anywhere in AGI. > > *From:* Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, May 13, 2013 3:19 AM > *To:* AGI <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [agi] The Turing Machine vs The Tintner Machine > > Mike, > > I'd suggest you start by thoroughly reading a basic undergrad text in > theoretical computer science, such as e.g. > > > http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Theory-Computation-Michael-Sipser/dp/0534950973/ref=pd_sim_b_4 > > (That is the easiest decent one I know of...).... Then you will be ready > to read some basics about analog and quantum computing. > > And then you will be ready to have this somewhat interesting discussion in > a meaningful and useful way... > > -- Ben G > > On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > >> *My first thoughts are that the Tintner Machine (or TM2) is basically >> a *dice* machine (/computer/robot) – with the dice deciding which option to >> take, when confronted with multiple, equally attractive but uncertain >> options.* >> ** >> *But note that it will be a sophisticated multiple dice machine – >> because yes, Steve, I realise you can have a dice algorithm. The new TM >> will roll at least two and possibly many dice. A second dice will decide >> whether to accept the decision of the first dice OR to throw the first dice >> again OR to try and find/create a new dice with more, new options, via more >> thought/research/experiment. So the process has the potential to go on >> forever.* >> ** >> *(Note that this accords with what we visibly do in some decisions - >> “Heads I call her, tails I don.t” Tails. “OK let’s make that two out of >> three throws...” Two tails. “Ok let’s go for three out of five OR maybe I >> look for another way of deciding (and dealing with the problem) altogether”) >> * >> ** >> >> ** >> >> ** >> ** >> ** >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-deec6279> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > http://goertzel.org > > "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-deec6279> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
