[email protected] said:You guys and the whole of science in fact are basically mechanics – you think about how the machine/car works – you don’t look at the big picture of what it’s supposed to do and how and where you can drive the car. You take all that for granted – when, for AGI, that’s the starting-point.Here’s a picture of a TM/algo:... A machine that has a route map which tells it exactly how to get through its maze, and in effect shows it the whole maze before it starts: Now here’s a very different TM2 – a true AGI it’s an EXPLORER robot – only not the present telecontrolled limited reality – but what an explorer robot should be – a machine designed to explore foreign territory like a foreign planet – WITHOUT A ROUTE MAP- WITHOUT humans directing it.. The opposite of a Tm/ALGO.-------------------------- Wait a minute Mike. Are you saying that a program that precisely described what to the program should do in every possible situation wouldn't work for AGI? Wow! Ever wonder if anyone has ever thought about stuff like that before? Maybe it really shows you that hundreds of person-years of thought just can't match a few years of mania. Oh wait, it doesn't really work that way does it? Do you really believe that -no one- in this group (other than you) has a clue as to what is theoretically necessary for AGI? Here is something that you could understand if you chose to. Sitting at the keyboard typing your thoughts is a kind of work. But it is not a substitute for more active physical work is it? Why not? If you are healthy your muscles are designed to deal with more of a load than just sitting typing and staring at a computer screen. In the same way the brain (or the mind) of a mentally healthy person is designed to deal with challenges that are more of a challenge than just sitting telling people that they are totally clueless and that you are the only one who knows what they should do. So get some healthy exercise and see if you can actually do something constructive that has some benefit that other people can appreciate. Or at least get a clue. Jim Bromer From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: [agi] What a TM1 and a TM2 look like from the outside Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 13:09:46 +0100
My impression is that the TM2 did *start* to have an impression on minds here – though almost nothing can remove Ben et al’s mental straitjacket – because you can begin to SEE what I am talking about. That’s why the TM paper was so great – you could SEE how it worked – you weren’t just dealing with abstract maths. So let’s show you visually the difference between a TM/algo machine and a TM2 creative machine from the outside – in terms of what they DO. You guys and the whole of science in fact are basically mechanics – you think about how the machine/car works – you don’t look at the big picture of what it’s supposed to do and how and where you can drive the car. You take all that for granted – when, for AGI, that’s the starting-point. Here’s a picture of a TM/algo: http://www6.pcmag.com/media/images/248747-tug-s-whiskers.jpg it’s basically a journeyrobot that follows a ROUTE MAP. Like a hospital robot. A machine that has a route map which tells it exactly how to get through its maze, and in effect shows it the whole maze before it starts: .http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O8hv9dAmGoI/Tt8dIBrUN9I/AAAAAAAAAL0/2IuWDRlEUC0/s1600/maze%2B%25281%2529.gif A TM is a machine that moves along precharted lines through precharted territory. Like, also, a warehouse robot Ihttp://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/robots_03_04/r25_14061299.jpg Nice work if you can get it – but there’s one limitation – a TM/algo robot can’t go anywhere else but that hospital/warehouse, that one charted territory and along those charted lines.It can’t go out and into the wide world It can’t go anywhere uncharted. Now here’s a very different TM2 – a true AGI - http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/robots_03_04/r18_0170-006.jpg it’s an EXPLORER robot – only not the present telecontrolled limited reality – but what an explorer robot should be – a machine designed to explore foreign territory like a foreign planet – WITHOUT A ROUTE MAP- WITHOUT humans directing it.. The opposite of a Tm/ALGO. So don’t see it so much as exploring Mars – because the Mars landscape is relatively open and easy to see. Think of an explorer that can explore a jungle http://www.google.com/imgres?safe=off&biw=1644&bih=748&tbm=isch&tbnid=M6xPtj5iOUp6MM:&imgrefurl=http://www.wallpaperdev.com/wallpaper/1024x768/new-african-animals-you-are-viewing-the-jungle-scenes-named-palms-it-has-205911-28819.html&docid=sCDBtV7ZlR67UM&imgurl=http://wallpaperdev.com/stock/new-african-animals-you-are-viewing-the-jungle-scenes-named-palms-it-has-205911.jpg&w=1024&h=768&ei=4MqQUeiaPJHu0gXFyYGYCg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:12,s:0,i:185 WITHOUT being able to see the whole jungle before it starts Or that can explore – and clean up - the “jungle” of a new room: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lBXQVHyQ1VA/S7FXEN2icBI/AAAAAAAAAEY/CqTTaIsyFuA/s1600/messy-room-03.jpg Or explore the jungle of the internet: https://www.google.co.uk/#output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=jungle&oq=jungle&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.1830.2652.0.4007.6.5.0.1.1.0.97.359.5.5.0...0.0...1c.1.12.psy-ab.ttVPw8hO1x4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46340616,d.d2k&fp=40f391f6da3e1fea&biw=1644&bih=748 (Mars is actually also a jungle but of a less obvious kind) This is a machine that can truly explore a new territory independently – move along uncharted lines through uncharted territory WITHOUT a route map. The complete opposite of a TM/algo that can only go where it’s told to go. A machine that can endlessly explore new fields without having to be given a step-by-step itinerary – a machine like you and every other living creature – would be kinda useful. Now if you try the algo/route map approach to AGI – to building a robot that by definition doesn’t and can’t have a route map – guess what’s going to happen?. Your machine isn’t going to go anywhere. And that’s the insanity of present AGI . It’s doing the complete opposite of what it should be doing. Oh but wait a minute – Turing is God, and God said “Thou shalt not and cannot go anywhere without having a route map beforehand.” Er, sorry about this, but God’s wrong. You don’t have to have a route map to go places and explore the world. In fact, you can’t have a route map for unmapped, uncharted territory. It’s a physical and computational impossibility. (It helps to look at not just how machines work but what they do – from the outside as well as the inside).. AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
