Mike, B and others interested in FES,

Mike, I am simply amazed that in a recent post, you described the FES system as 
“Silly” and in this post, you seem to be implying that it would probably be 
much inferior to the same system if on a retractable pylon,
Mike,  all who have used FES describe the degradation of FES in the glide, even 
at high speed, as simply not detectable by any pilot flying one. You may or may 
not be aware that it is now the preferred “not land out” system  offered by 
Schempp Hirth, who are now offering it for Discus 2, Ventus 2CX, and when it is 
certified, the new Ventus as Schempp call it, but already is known in the 
general gliding movement, as the Ventus 3.
Tilo himself flew a FES equipped V2CX FES in a recent Grand Prix and was far 
from disgraced! And against other pure and retractable engine gliders.
Mike, I have to tell you, and anyone else who is prepared to listen, that as an 
operator of a self launching Ventus 2CM, since purchasing mine in 1998, the 
first of two eighteen metre gliders to come to Australia, (twenty two years 
ago) that regarding reliability issues, it has not usually been the reliability 
of the two stroke power system, but the notorious UNRELIABILITY of the 
retractable engine system that is the important issue, Both with respect to 
safety, and even more so, maintenance issues, I had my first failure of the 
linear actuator, which raises and lowers the propeller pylon, when the glider 
was only about ten years old, and was forced to operate the glider for about 
two years as a pure glider with engine out, because Schempp, in there 
inimitable “could not give a shit about spares availability”  were unable to 
supply me with either the linear actuator itself, (screw jack) or a new motor 
driving it. The total time then, of the whole engine and erection system was as 
I remember it, fifty miserable hours, Then total failure of the pylon erection 
system, and a two year delay until I was able to repair it, using my own 
recourses, with not any help from Schempp, or indeed probably worse than simply 
no help, a simple shrug of the shoulders, Their response? “Sorry, the firm 
making the actuator that we used in your glider is now out of business,so we 
are unable to help you” the reliability of the two stroke power system itself 
has had its moments too, but, overwhelmingly, it has been the unreliability of 
the erection system that has given me the most grief. After two years, I was 
again able to restore the linear actuator to working order with from memory, 
the third iteration of self sourced motors. Even then, the motor I sourced 
required much modification of shaft bushes to make it work reliably, with 
linear thrust loading on the shaft, which is of course what is required for a 
motor driving a worm gear, meshing with a screw drive on the linear  actuation 
shaft of a typical electro / mechanical actuator of the typical motor or 
propeller raising system as used by Schempp and others.  Almost all small 12 V 
DC motors of this size are designed for torque shaft loads only, As I found, it 
was quite impossible to find one designed to accept considerable thrust loading 
on the drive shaft as well. The only solution to this conundrum that I could 
come up with  was to purchase a standard motor and modify it to accept thrust 
shaft loads as well as torque loads. By no means impossible, but certainly, 
would be for the average bear, including Shempp themselves, who were blissfully 
unaware of this vital issue. It was only my rather unique access to a glider 
pilot friend, who had such expertise as his kit of tools, after a career of 
forty years as a production repetition engineer. You too, of course know this 
man almost as well as I do, so that I was eventually able to work my way round 
a problem that even Shempp could not will probably be no great surprise to you.
Would a simple hydraulic system as used I believe on an LS turbo erection motor 
be more reliable and less troublesome? Of course it would! Any engineer worth 
his salt could tell you that, but the miniscule engineering expertise of 
Schempp Hirth engineers twenty two years ago, with respect to engine 
installations,was such that they chose a linear actuation system from a company 
which went out of business in less than ten years! Am I just a little pissed 
off with the support provided by Schempp? You can guess!  
Woolly Pup  3, I do hope that with your incredible confidence in the Schempp 
Hirth product and ethic, you are reading this post!  As you can no doubt tell, 
your opinion and mine on this matter are very, vert different!
The retractable system in my twenty one years of operating the V2CM, would have 
killed a much less experienced pilot at least twice and in the case of the 
other V2CM, operated by the other DDSC member who you know well,caused a 
serious safety issue at least once. The owners son in law was flying it at the 
time and once again what happened could have had much more serious consequences 
for a n early hours motor glider pilot. 
Mike B and others, I can sincerely say that I will NEVER, as long as my bum 
points to the ground, ever again own a retractable power system, manufactured 
by Schempp Hirth..That of other manufacturers? I have no first hand experience 
with other manufacturers systems, so will reserve my judgement, but would 
certainly be a very cautious person if I was considering purchasing one!
Mike B, in my opinion, you are completely missing the point about FES, which is 
this. You will be sacrificing a miniscule of glide performance for a system 
which will save you a land out, climb away at about 2 M/S even in an 18 M 
glider, and then allow you to cruise under power at least one hundred 
kilometres at better than one hundred KPH to either home, a safe airport, 
allowing a safe aero tow, or back to an area that is still thermic.. What could 
be better than that!

In my opinion, Mike, the system would be better named, KISS FES! “Keep it 
Simple stupid. Front electric sustainer ! “

Mike, you may know that Andrew Madocks is currently working at the Schempp 
factory, having training to return to Aus with all the qualifications to 
undertake all glider maintenance including major repairs, and approved 
modifications. He has been well involved with the installation of FES in new 
Schempp products. He has been  briefed by me to return with knowlege of what is 
involved to retro fit FES to my Ventus 2CM, which would then become , I guess, 
my Ventus 2C FES!. I expect that this will be done some time in 2017, soon 
after Andrew returns to Australia. My extremely unreliable Solo motor 
retractable motor system which is now, at last, working perfectly and reliably, 
for the first time in eighteen months, (Due to another instance of Schempp 
saying, “Sorry, Mr Ward, the engine in your Ventus 2CM is no longer supported. 
We are of course able to support your airframe, virtually forever!” , will be 
then hung from a hook in my hanger!
My self launching motor glider has operated in the experimentalcategory for the 
last year due to a failed mechanical water pump. Yes, you guessed it. Not 
available from either Schempp or Solo! It is now equipped with an approved 
modification, an electric water pump, for which the pump manufacturer claims a 
service life of from memory, twenty thousand hours!
>From memory, the total engine system has less than 90 hours, on VH-GBW, for 
>about 2600 airframe hours. And all the bloody pain of owning a retractable 
>engine system for the twenty two years of operation!
Mike you are aware that I rarely post on this site However, I chose to do so 
today, as I believe that you are on completely the wrong tram with respect to 
retractable systems and FES. 
My advice to you would be this. Please consider carefully before you again call 
FES a “Silly FES”
In conclusion, Mike, I must say that I find it truly amazing that you, of all 
people, who for years operated a piggy back Top Engine on your Ventus C , and 
which, conservatively would have depreciated your gliders glide performance by 
say 20% or so, would be so concerned about the absolutely miniscule 
depreciation, on glide performance of FES, when considered along side its 
attributes, and its simplicity. And as I recall it, you repeatedly sang the 
praises of the TOP system! 
Mike, regardless of your or other responses to this post, this will be my only 
post on this subject! Please do not even try to draw me out with your usual 
invective. It simply will not work. I know you too well!
My prediction, Mike, is that within 10 years, FES will out sell all other “lets 
not land out” systems. And it will be easily retro fit table to just about 
anything.! 
Lets just agree to wait and see if you or me is correct!


Regards
Bob Ward.



From: Mike Borgelt 
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:40 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] DIana 2

LOL! Good point. You might need a Honda generator running most of the night. 
Yep, clean green motorgliding.

Lange Antares has been around for a while. I think it was the first PRODUCTION 
electric SLG. Uses some Saft  V44 Li-ion cells. 72 of them I think. Lots of 
very careful cell management is required. There are microprocessors all over 
the battery pack and they report to Germany via the cell phone network.

Silent Electro uses the FES system. Someone should really put one in a Silent 
Targa 2 as a retractable installation to compare performance with the front 
mounted FES.

Mike





At 10:26 AM 9/19/2016, you wrote:

  Umm. I believe solar panels don't work so well overnight. 

  Not in australia anyway 😜

  Kind Regards

  David Holmes

  Sent from my iPhone 0439 734 646

  > On 19 Sep 2016, at 10:24, DMcD <slutsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
  > 
  > HA,
  > 
  > There's an interesting article in the current S&G about a casual comp
  > done in Italy, flown with the Silent Electro. Was this the world's
  > first electric SLG? I know it proceeded things like the Antares by
  > almost a decade.
  > 
  > Anyway, the innovation with the comp was that they were allowed to use
  > the motor during the comp and motor runs were counted in the overall
  > score. From memory, the Silent could do about 8000' of climbing with a
  > full charge (on new batteries no doubt). So this would mean one launch
  > and two or three retrieves which is pretty much all you need for most
  > comp or safari flying.
  > 
  > With an ultralight glider, you could probably do all the recharging
  > overnight with Aldi solar panels.
  > 
  > As far as noise levels go, the first electrics failed EASA noise level
  > checks because they did not appear on the scale.
  > 
  > D
  > _______________________________________________
  > Aus-soaring mailing list
  > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
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