I think what Mike was referring to was not the drag of the blades in
gliding flight but the efficiency of the nose-mounted propellor in climb.
Reliability through simplicity is definitely a factor, but the FES is not
much good if you want to self-launch (prop clearance).

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:37 PM, Bob Ward <wendo...@westnet.com.au> wrote:

> Mike, B and others interested in FES,
> Mike, I am simply amazed that in a recent post, you described the FES
> system as “Silly” and in this post, you seem to be implying that it would
> probably be much inferior to the same system if on a retractable pylon,
> Mike,  all who have used FES describe the degradation of FES in the glide,
> even at high speed, as simply not detectable by any pilot flying one. You
> may or may not be aware that it is now the preferred “not land out” system
> offered by Schempp Hirth, who are now offering it for Discus 2, Ventus 2CX,
> and when it is certified, the new Ventus as Schempp call it, but already is
> known in the general gliding movement, as the Ventus 3.
> Tilo himself flew a FES equipped V2CX FES in a recent Grand Prix and was
> far from disgraced! And against other pure and retractable engine gliders.
> Mike, I have to tell you, and anyone else who is prepared to listen, that
> as an operator of a self launching Ventus 2CM, since purchasing mine in
> 1998, the first of two eighteen metre gliders to come to Australia, (twenty
> two years ago) that regarding reliability issues, it has not usually been
> the reliability of the two stroke power system, but the notorious 
> *of the retractable engine system that is the important issue, Both with
> respect to safety, and even more so, maintenance issues, I had my first
> failure of the linear actuator, which raises and lowers the propeller
> pylon, when the glider was only about ten years old, and was forced to
> operate the glider for about two years as a pure glider with engine out,
> because Schempp, in there inimitable *“could not give a shit about spares
> availability”*  were unable to supply me with either the linear actuator
> itself, (screw jack) or a new motor driving it. The total time then, of the
> whole engine and erection system was as I remember it, fifty miserable
> hours, Then total failure of the pylon erection system, and a two year
> delay until I was able to repair it, using my own recourses, with not any
> help from Schempp, or indeed probably worse than simply no help, a simple
> shrug of the shoulders, Their response? *“Sorry, the firm making the
> actuator that we used in your glider is now out of business,so we are
> unable to help you”* the reliability of the two stroke power system
> itself has had its moments too, but, overwhelmingly, it has been the
> unreliability of the erection system that has given me the most grief.
> After two years, I was again able to restore the linear actuator to working
> order with from memory, the third iteration of self sourced motors. Even
> then, the motor I sourced required much modification of shaft bushes to
> make it work reliably, with linear thrust loading on the shaft, which is of
> course what is required for a motor driving a worm gear, meshing with a
> screw drive on the linear  actuation shaft of a typical electro /
> mechanical actuator of the typical motor or propeller raising system as
> used by Schempp and others.  Almost all small 12 V DC motors of this size
> are designed for torque shaft loads only, As I found, it was quite
> impossible to find one designed to accept considerable thrust loading on
> the drive shaft as well. The only solution to this conundrum that I could
> come up with  was to purchase a standard motor and modify it to accept
> thrust shaft loads as well as torque loads. By no means impossible, but
> certainly, would be for the average bear, including Shempp themselves, who
> were blissfully unaware of this vital issue. It was only my rather unique
> access to a glider pilot friend, who had such expertise as his kit of
> tools, after a career of forty years as a production repetition engineer.
> You too, of course know this man almost as well as I do, so that I was
> eventually able to work my way round a problem that even Shempp could not
> will probably be no great surprise to you.
> Would a simple hydraulic system as used I believe on an LS turbo erection
> motor be more reliable and less troublesome? Of course it would! Any
> engineer worth his salt could tell you that, but the miniscule engineering
> expertise of Schempp Hirth engineers twenty two years ago, with respect to
> engine installations,was such that they chose a linear actuation system
> from a company which went out of business in less than ten years! Am I just
> a little pissed off with the support provided by Schempp? You can guess!
> Woolly Pup  3, I do hope that with your incredible confidence in the
> Schempp Hirth product and ethic, you are reading this post!  As you can no
> doubt tell, your opinion and mine on this matter are very, vert different!
> The retractable system in my twenty one years of operating the V2CM, would
> have killed a much less experienced pilot at least twice and in the case of
> the other V2CM, operated by the other DDSC member who you know well,caused
> a serious safety issue at least once. The owners son in law was flying it
> at the time and once again what happened could have had much more serious
> consequences for a n early hours motor glider pilot.
> Mike B and others, I can sincerely say that I will *NEVER*, as long as my
> bum points to the ground, ever again own a retractable power system,
> manufactured by Schempp Hirth..That of other manufacturers? I have no first
> hand experience with other manufacturers systems, so will reserve my
> judgement, but would certainly be a very cautious person if I was
> considering purchasing one!
> *Mike B, in my opinion, you are completely missing the point about FES,
> which is this. *You will be sacrificing a miniscule of glide performance
> for a system which will save you a land out, climb away at about 2 M/S even
> in an 18 M glider, and then allow you to cruise under power at least one
> hundred kilometres at better than one hundred KPH to either home, a safe
> airport, allowing a safe aero tow, or back to an area that is still
> thermic.. What could be better than that!
> In my opinion, Mike, the system would be better named, KISS FES! *“Keep
> it Simple stupid. Front electric sustainer ! “*
> Mike, you may know that Andrew Madocks is currently working at the Schempp
> factory, having training to return to Aus with all the qualifications to
> undertake all glider maintenance including major repairs, and approved
> modifications. He has been well involved with the installation of FES in
> new Schempp products. He has been  briefed by me to return with knowlege of
> what is involved to retro fit FES to my Ventus 2CM, which would then become
> , I guess, my Ventus 2C FES!. I expect that this will be done some time in
> 2017, soon after Andrew returns to Australia. My extremely unreliable Solo
> motor retractable motor system which is now, at last, working perfectly and
> reliably, for the first time in eighteen months,* (Due to another
> instance of Schempp saying, “Sorry, Mr Ward, the engine in your Ventus 2CM
> is no longer supported. We are of course able to support your airframe,
> virtually forever!”* *, *will be then hung from a hook in my hanger!
> My self launching motor glider has operated in the experimentalcategory
> for the last year due to a failed mechanical water pump. Yes, you guessed
> it. Not available from either Schempp or Solo! It is now equipped with an
> approved modification, an electric water pump, for which the pump
> manufacturer claims a service life of from memory, twenty thousand hours!
> From memory, the total engine system has less than 90 hours, on VH-GBW,
> for about 2600 airframe hours. And all the bloody pain of owning a
> retractable engine system for the twenty two years of operation!
> Mike you are aware that I rarely post on this site However, I chose to do
> so today, as I believe that you are on completely the wrong tram with
> respect to retractable systems and FES.
> My advice to you would be this. *Please consider carefully before you
> again call FES a “Silly FES”*
> *In conclusion, Mike, I must say that I find it truly amazing that you, of
> all people, who for years operated a piggy back Top Engine on your Ventus C
> , and which, conservatively would have depreciated your gliders glide
> performance by say 20% or so, would be so concerned about the absolutely
> miniscule depreciation, on glide performance of FES, when considered along
> side its attributes, and its simplicity. And as I recall it, you repeatedly
> sang the praises of the TOP system! *
> Mike, regardless of your or other responses to this post, this will be my
> only post on this subject! Please do not even try to draw me out with your
> usual invective. It simply will not work. I know you too well!
> My prediction, Mike, is that within 10 years, FES will out sell all other
> “lets not land out” systems. And it will be easily retro fit table to just
> about anything.!
> Lets just agree to wait and see if you or me is correct!
> Regards
> Bob Ward.
> From: Mike Borgelt <mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:40 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> <aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] DIana 2
> LOL! Good point. You might need a Honda generator running most of the
> night. Yep, clean green motorgliding.
> Lange Antares has been around for a while. I think it was the first
> PRODUCTION electric SLG. Uses some Saft  V44 Li-ion cells. 72 of them I
> think. Lots of very careful cell management is required. There are
> microprocessors all over the battery pack and they report to Germany via
> the cell phone network.
> Silent Electro uses the FES system. Someone should really put one in a
> Silent Targa 2 as a retractable installation to compare performance with
> the front mounted FES.
> Mike
> At 10:26 AM 9/19/2016, you wrote:
> Umm. I believe solar panels don't work so well overnight.
> Not in australia anyway 😜
> Kind Regards
> David Holmes
> Sent from my iPhone 0439 734 646
> > On 19 Sep 2016, at 10:24, DMcD <slutsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > HA,
> >
> > There's an interesting article in the current S&G about a casual comp
> > done in Italy, flown with the Silent Electro. Was this the world's
> > first electric SLG? I know it proceeded things like the Antares by
> > almost a decade.
> >
> > Anyway, the innovation with the comp was that they were allowed to use
> > the motor during the comp and motor runs were counted in the overall
> > score. From memory, the Silent could do about 8000' of climbing with a
> > full charge (on new batteries no doubt). So this would mean one launch
> > and two or three retrieves which is pretty much all you need for most
> > comp or safari flying.
> >
> > With an ultralight glider, you could probably do all the recharging
> > overnight with Aldi solar panels.
> >
> > As far as noise levels go, the first electrics failed EASA noise level
> > checks because they did not appear on the scale.
> >
> > D
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