I have booked Maddog to put a silly FES in my LS8. He has another 2 LS8’s he is 
going to fit out.

Get in line, with better batteries on the way it just gets better and better.

No more risky paddocks for me. Too old for that crap.





> On 19 Sep 2016, at 8:37 PM, Bob Ward <wendo...@westnet.com.au> wrote:
> 
> Mike, B and others interested in FES,
>  
> Mike, I am simply amazed that in a recent post, you described the FES system 
> as “Silly” and in this post, you seem to be implying that it would probably 
> be much inferior to the same system if on a retractable pylon,
> Mike,  all who have used FES describe the degradation of FES in the glide, 
> even at high speed, as simply not detectable by any pilot flying one. You may 
> or may not be aware that it is now the preferred “not land out” system  
> offered by Schempp Hirth, who are now offering it for Discus 2, Ventus 2CX, 
> and when it is certified, the new Ventus as Schempp call it, but already is 
> known in the general gliding movement, as the Ventus 3.
> Tilo himself flew a FES equipped V2CX FES in a recent Grand Prix and was far 
> from disgraced! And against other pure and retractable engine gliders.
> Mike, I have to tell you, and anyone else who is prepared to listen, that as 
> an operator of a self launching Ventus 2CM, since purchasing mine in 1998, 
> the first of two eighteen metre gliders to come to Australia, (twenty two 
> years ago) that regarding reliability issues, it has not usually been the 
> reliability of the two stroke power system, but the notorious UNRELIABILITY 
> of the retractable engine system that is the important issue, Both with 
> respect to safety, and even more so, maintenance issues, I had my first 
> failure of the linear actuator, which raises and lowers the propeller pylon, 
> when the glider was only about ten years old, and was forced to operate the 
> glider for about two years as a pure glider with engine out, because Schempp, 
> in there inimitable “could not give a shit about spares availability”  were 
> unable to supply me with either the linear actuator itself, (screw jack) or a 
> new motor driving it. The total time then, of the whole engine and erection 
> system was as I remember it, fifty miserable hours, Then total failure of the 
> pylon erection system, and a two year delay until I was able to repair it, 
> using my own recourses, with not any help from Schempp, or indeed probably 
> worse than simply no help, a simple shrug of the shoulders, Their response? 
> “Sorry, the firm making the actuator that we used in your glider is now out 
> of business,so we are unable to help you” the reliability of the two stroke 
> power system itself has had its moments too, but, overwhelmingly, it has been 
> the unreliability of the erection system that has given me the most grief. 
> After two years, I was again able to restore the linear actuator to working 
> order with from memory, the third iteration of self sourced motors. Even 
> then, the motor I sourced required much modification of shaft bushes to make 
> it work reliably, with linear thrust loading on the shaft, which is of course 
> what is required for a motor driving a worm gear, meshing with a screw drive 
> on the linear  actuation shaft of a typical electro / mechanical actuator of 
> the typical motor or propeller raising system as used by Schempp and others.  
> Almost all small 12 V DC motors of this size are designed for torque shaft 
> loads only, As I found, it was quite impossible to find one designed to 
> accept considerable thrust loading on the drive shaft as well. The only 
> solution to this conundrum that I could come up with  was to purchase a 
> standard motor and modify it to accept thrust shaft loads as well as torque 
> loads. By no means impossible, but certainly, would be for the average bear, 
> including Shempp themselves, who were blissfully unaware of this vital issue. 
> It was only my rather unique access to a glider pilot friend, who had such 
> expertise as his kit of tools, after a career of forty years as a production 
> repetition engineer. You too, of course know this man almost as well as I do, 
> so that I was eventually able to work my way round a problem that even Shempp 
> could not will probably be no great surprise to you.
> Would a simple hydraulic system as used I believe on an LS turbo erection 
> motor be more reliable and less troublesome? Of course it would! Any engineer 
> worth his salt could tell you that, but the miniscule engineering expertise 
> of Schempp Hirth engineers twenty two years ago, with respect to engine 
> installations,was such that they chose a linear actuation system from a 
> company which went out of business in less than ten years! Am I just a little 
> pissed off with the support provided by Schempp? You can guess! 
> Woolly Pup  3, I do hope that with your incredible confidence in the Schempp 
> Hirth product and ethic, you are reading this post!  As you can no doubt 
> tell, your opinion and mine on this matter are very, vert different!
> The retractable system in my twenty one years of operating the V2CM, would 
> have killed a much less experienced pilot at least twice and in the case of 
> the other V2CM, operated by the other DDSC member who you know well,caused a 
> serious safety issue at least once. The owners son in law was flying it at 
> the time and once again what happened could have had much more serious 
> consequences for a n early hours motor glider pilot.
> Mike B and others, I can sincerely say that I will NEVER, as long as my bum 
> points to the ground, ever again own a retractable power system, manufactured 
> by Schempp Hirth..That of other manufacturers? I have no first hand 
> experience with other manufacturers systems, so will reserve my judgement, 
> but would certainly be a very cautious person if I was considering purchasing 
> one!
> Mike B, in my opinion, you are completely missing the point about FES, which 
> is this. You will be sacrificing a miniscule of glide performance for a 
> system which will save you a land out, climb away at about 2 M/S even in an 
> 18 M glider, and then allow you to cruise under power at least one hundred 
> kilometres at better than one hundred KPH to either home, a safe airport, 
> allowing a safe aero tow, or back to an area that is still thermic.. What 
> could be better than that!
>  
> In my opinion, Mike, the system would be better named, KISS FES! “Keep it 
> Simple stupid. Front electric sustainer ! “
>  
> Mike, you may know that Andrew Madocks is currently working at the Schempp 
> factory, having training to return to Aus with all the qualifications to 
> undertake all glider maintenance including major repairs, and approved 
> modifications. He has been well involved with the installation of FES in new 
> Schempp products. He has been  briefed by me to return with knowlege of what 
> is involved to retro fit FES to my Ventus 2CM, which would then become , I 
> guess, my Ventus 2C FES!. I expect that this will be done some time in 2017, 
> soon after Andrew returns to Australia. My extremely unreliable Solo motor 
> retractable motor system which is now, at last, working perfectly and 
> reliably, for the first time in eighteen months, (Due to another instance of 
> Schempp saying, “Sorry, Mr Ward, the engine in your Ventus 2CM is no longer 
> supported. We are of course able to support your airframe, virtually 
> forever!” , will be then hung from a hook in my hanger!
> My self launching motor glider has operated in the experimentalcategory for 
> the last year due to a failed mechanical water pump. Yes, you guessed it. Not 
> available from either Schempp or Solo! It is now equipped with an approved 
> modification, an electric water pump, for which the pump manufacturer claims 
> a service life of from memory, twenty thousand hours!
> From memory, the total engine system has less than 90 hours, on VH-GBW, for 
> about 2600 airframe hours. And all the bloody pain of owning a retractable 
> engine system for the twenty two years of operation!
> Mike you are aware that I rarely post on this site However, I chose to do so 
> today, as I believe that you are on completely the wrong tram with respect to 
> retractable systems and FES.
> My advice to you would be this. Please consider carefully before you again 
> call FES a “Silly FES”
> In conclusion, Mike, I must say that I find it truly amazing that you, of all 
> people, who for years operated a piggy back Top Engine on your Ventus C , and 
> which, conservatively would have depreciated your gliders glide performance 
> by say 20% or so, would be so concerned about the absolutely miniscule 
> depreciation, on glide performance of FES, when considered along side its 
> attributes, and its simplicity. And as I recall it, you repeatedly sang the 
> praises of the TOP system!
> Mike, regardless of your or other responses to this post, this will be my 
> only post on this subject! Please do not even try to draw me out with your 
> usual invective. It simply will not work. I know you too well!
> My prediction, Mike, is that within 10 years, FES will out sell all other 
> “lets not land out” systems. And it will be easily retro fit table to just 
> about anything.!
> Lets just agree to wait and see if you or me is correct!
>  
>  
> Regards
> Bob Ward.
>  
>  
>  
> From: Mike Borgelt <mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:40 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
> <mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] DIana 2
>  
> LOL! Good point. You might need a Honda generator running most of the night. 
> Yep, clean green motorgliding.
> 
> Lange Antares has been around for a while. I think it was the first 
> PRODUCTION electric SLG. Uses some Saft  V44 Li-ion cells. 72 of them I 
> think. Lots of very careful cell management is required. There are 
> microprocessors all over the battery pack and they report to Germany via the 
> cell phone network.
> 
> Silent Electro uses the FES system. Someone should really put one in a Silent 
> Targa 2 as a retractable installation to compare performance with the front 
> mounted FES.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 10:26 AM 9/19/2016, you wrote:
>> Umm. I believe solar panels don't work so well overnight. 
>> 
>> Not in australia anyway 😜
>> 
>> Kind Regards
>> 
>> David Holmes
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone 0439 734 646
>> 
>> > On 19 Sep 2016, at 10:24, DMcD <slutsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > HA,
>> > 
>> > There's an interesting article in the current S&G about a casual comp
>> > done in Italy, flown with the Silent Electro. Was this the world's
>> > first electric SLG? I know it proceeded things like the Antares by
>> > almost a decade.
>> > 
>> > Anyway, the innovation with the comp was that they were allowed to use
>> > the motor during the comp and motor runs were counted in the overall
>> > score. From memory, the Silent could do about 8000' of climbing with a
>> > full charge (on new batteries no doubt). So this would mean one launch
>> > and two or three retrieves which is pretty much all you need for most
>> > comp or safari flying.
>> > 
>> > With an ultralight glider, you could probably do all the recharging
>> > overnight with Aldi solar panels.
>> > 
>> > As far as noise levels go, the first electrics failed EASA noise level
>> > checks because they did not appear on the scale.
>> > 
>> > D
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring>Borgelt Instruments - 
>> design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
>  <http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/>tel:   07 4635 5784     overseas: 
> int+61-7-4635 5784
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