The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 645 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires E30 318is Flywheel (was No big motor tourings was E46 advice) Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires E34 Touring questions Re: E34 Touring questions Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:49:06 -0400 From: "Rich Dorffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "BMW BMW BMW BMW" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Gary Derian wrote: > > > Why do you need AWD? 4 snow tires with RWD are better than all > > season tires and AWD. > > I've been reading various automotive on line e-mail lists and > message boards > for over 10 years and I bet I've read over a hundred posts like Gary's > stating that 4 snow tires with RWD (or FWD) is better than all > season tires > and AWD. Odd, I see a considerable more number of responses tout AWD over snow tire usage. > I'm wondering if anyone that has actually done a side by side comparison > will still come out and say that snow tires and RWD is better than all > season tires and AWD in the snow. I have never done a "side by side" > comparison but did > get a chance to drive my old Toyota 4x4 (with the hubs unlocked) > in RWD with > snow tires and it did not have as much traction as it did the day > before in > 4WD with (worn) all season tires (it was amazing in 4WD with the > snow tires > on all four wheels). I have seen a number of comparison tests that confirm what Gary said (Popular Mechanics and another magazine I have read). Personally, I think it is common sense. There is no way that the same exact vehicle (one with RWD and one with AWD) will have the AWD with regular, brand new all-season tires out handle (brake and turn) a RWD with brand new hard core snow tires in severe and inclement conditions. The AWD may possibly hold an advantage in acceleration due to driving all four wheels/tires, but the advantage stops there. Regards, Rich - has driven a lot in snow the past two winters with a RWD E30 and Nokian snow tires. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 08:02:18 -0500 From: Dennis Wynne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We don't get a lot of snow and ice days here, but I HAVE to get to work no matter the weather so for a dozen years or so (ever since I could afford it) I have been running snow tires on spare rims during the winter. The nice side benefit of this is being able to run summer tread tires the rest of the rear. So I get the best dry and wet traction and the best snow traction just by changing over. I used some Yokohama Guardex "high performance" low-profile snow tires on my RWD 330i. These are made like Blizzaks - only the special ice grip compound runs all the way through the tread. Really nice snow and ice tires! I did have to get spare ALLOYS for this car since no steel rims would go over the sports pack rotors. Pretty expensive set up. When I sold my 330i and got the M5 I didn't want think I wanted to go "Skating" with a 394hp car even on four snows - and the rims to fit the M5 were even more expensive. I picked up a well used 96 Subaru Legacy wagon for cheap. AWD, airbags, and ABS. I put 4 cheap Dunlop Graspic tires on it during the winter (the Graspic has near top ice grip in CR tests). Let me tell you this setup is like a freakin' mountain goat! No comparison to the RWD w/snows or FWD w/snows I have used in the past. No advantage on cornering or stopping (other than a lighter car), but man-o-man the grip for hills is amazing. I have not tried it with the all season tires that were on the car when I got it, so I can't speak to that. But the small steel rims and small snow tires were cheap - as was the car. I will paste a snippet of what consumer reports tested on this subject. They found that AWD with all season tires was better than FWD with snows. So I would assume the fall off to RWD with snows would be more so. I am sure tire age/wear has a lot to do with it as well. New all season tires VS new winter tires may not show as much difference as worn all season VS worn snow tires would show. Dennis 01 M5 silver/black (for sale) From Consumer Reports: How much difference can winter tires make? We compared four of our test cars--the all-wheel-drive Volkswagen Passat GLX 4Motion and its front-wheel-drive sibling, the Passat GLS, and the all-wheel-drive Volvo Cross Country and similar front-drive Volvo S60. The tests: We gauged traction by measuring the distance it took to accelerate from 5 mph to 20 mph over packed snow. Because cold-weather stops can be especially challenging, we also tested braking from 10 mph over smooth ice. We drove the all-wheel-drive cars with their factory-issue all-season tires, which should get these vehicles through most conditions. Front-drive models were tested two ways--with standard all-season tires and with winter tires. Our results: Best were the all-wheel-drive cars, which reached 20 mph 21 feet sooner, on average, than the front-drive cars equipped with winter tires. Winter tires yielded the biggest snow-traction gain for the buck, however. Using them helped the front-drive cars reach 20 mph nearly 28 feet sooner than they did with all-season tires. Cost: about $300 for the four winter tires plus another $160 or so for an extra set of wheel rims to ease the switch to winter tires. Better traction won't guarantee shorter stops. Braking distances on ice were about the same for the all-wheel- and front-wheel-drive cars. But the antilock braking systems (ABS) helped significantly; both Volvos stopped some 14 feet sooner with ABS than they did when we turned it off. Our advice: Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if you live in a snowy area or want added peace of mind. For maximum traction, equip it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a set of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four wheels for balanced handling. Remove them after winter, since these tires wear quickly on dry roads (plan on about three winters of use). And be sure to opt for ABS on any vehicle. At 11:49 PM 05/04/2005 -0400, Rich Dorffer wrote: > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > > > Why do you need AWD? 4 snow tires with RWD are better than all > > > season tires and AWD. > > > > I've been reading various automotive on line e-mail lists and > > message boards > > for over 10 years and I bet I've read over a hundred posts like Gary's > > stating that 4 snow tires with RWD (or FWD) is better than all > > season tires > > and AWD. > >Odd, I see a considerable more number of responses tout AWD over snow tire >usage. > > > I'm wondering if anyone that has actually done a side by side comparison > > will still come out and say that snow tires and RWD is better than all > > season tires and AWD in the snow. I have never done a "side by side" > > comparison but did > > get a chance to drive my old Toyota 4x4 (with the hubs unlocked) > > in RWD with > > snow tires and it did not have as much traction as it did the day > > before in > > 4WD with (worn) all season tires (it was amazing in 4WD with the > > snow tires > > on all four wheels). > >I have seen a number of comparison tests that confirm what Gary said >(Popular Mechanics and another magazine I have read). > >Personally, I think it is common sense. There is no way that the same exact >vehicle (one with RWD and one with AWD) will have the AWD with regular, >brand new all-season tires out handle (brake and turn) a RWD with brand new >hard core snow tires in severe and inclement conditions. The AWD may >possibly hold an advantage in acceleration due to driving all four >wheels/tires, but the advantage stops there. > >Regards, > >Rich - has driven a lot in snow the past two winters with a RWD E30 and >Nokian snow tires. > >Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > >UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate >Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! >908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:10:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Dorffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Dennis Wynne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [email protected] Subject: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Dennis Wynne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I will paste a snippet of what consumer reports tested on this subject. > They found that AWD with all season tires was better than > FWD with snows. So I would assume the fall off to RWD with snows would be > more so. Really? Why? > From Consumer Reports: > > The tests: We gauged traction by measuring the distance it took to > accelerate from 5 mph to 20 mph over packed snow. Because cold-weather > stops can be especially challenging, we also tested braking from 10 mph > over smooth ice. We drove the all-wheel-drive cars with their factory-issue > all-season tires, which should get these vehicles through most conditions. > Front-drive models were tested two ways--with standard all-season tires and > with winter tires. Our results: > > Best were the all-wheel-drive cars, which reached 20 mph 21 feet sooner, on > average, than the front-drive cars equipped with winter tires. I will concede that driving four wheels (even with all-seasons) will generally yield better acceleration than just two driven wheels with snow tires. Personally though, I am more concerned with turning and stopping in cold/snowy conditions. > Winter tires yielded the biggest snow-traction gain for the buck, however. > Using them helped the front-drive cars reach 20 mph nearly 28 feet sooner > than they did with all-season tires. Cost: about $300 for the four winter > tires plus another $160 or so for an extra set of wheel rims to ease the > switch to winter tires. To Gary's point about better bank-for-the-buck with snow tires over AWD. > Better traction won't guarantee shorter stops. Really? Must be new physics CR is experiencing here... > Braking distances on ice > were about the same for the all-wheel- and front-wheel-drive cars. But the > antilock braking systems (ABS) helped significantly; both Volvos stopped > some 14 feet sooner with ABS than they did when we turned it off. First off, braking on ice is going to be difficult for just about any tire short of studded tires. Tons of siping helps. What the previous comments fails to mention is, how was braking with the snow tires versus the all-seasons??? > Our advice: Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if you live in a snowy area > or want added peace of mind. For maximum traction, equip it with winter > tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a set of winter tires > should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four wheels for balanced > handling. Remove them after winter, since these tires wear quickly on dry > roads (plan on about three winters of use). And be sure to opt for ABS on > any vehicle. Fairly good advice but their entire test left out us RWD folks... Overall, Consumer Reports' tests seemed to be pretty simplified if this snippet was representative. Testing acceleration on one type of surface and braking on ice isn't terribly representative. Later, Rich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:41:17 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Richard Dorffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Dennis Wynne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> Subject: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> By better I did not mean winning an ice drag race, I meant the ability to negotiate roads and safely arrive at your destination. The ability to accelerate without commensurate stopping and turning ability can be dangerous. Gary Derian >> >> The tests: We gauged traction by measuring the distance it took to >> accelerate from 5 mph to 20 mph over packed snow. Because cold-weather >> stops can be especially challenging, we also tested braking from 10 mph >> over smooth ice. We drove the all-wheel-drive cars with their >> factory-issue >> all-season tires, which should get these vehicles through most >> conditions. >> Front-drive models were tested two ways--with standard all-season tires >> and >> with winter tires. Our results: >> >> Best were the all-wheel-drive cars, which reached 20 mph 21 feet sooner, >> on >> average, than the front-drive cars equipped with winter tires. > > I will concede that driving four wheels (even with all-seasons) will > generally yield better > acceleration than just two driven wheels with snow tires. > > Personally though, I am more concerned with turning and stopping in > cold/snowy conditions. > >> Winter tires yielded the biggest snow-traction gain for the buck, >> however. >> Using them helped the front-drive cars reach 20 mph nearly 28 feet sooner >> than they did with all-season tires. Cost: about $300 for the four winter >> tires plus another $160 or so for an extra set of wheel rims to ease the >> switch to winter tires. > > To Gary's point about better bank-for-the-buck with snow tires over AWD. > >> Better traction won't guarantee shorter stops. > > Really? Must be new physics CR is experiencing here... > >> Braking distances on ice >> were about the same for the all-wheel- and front-wheel-drive cars. But >> the >> antilock braking systems (ABS) helped significantly; both Volvos stopped >> some 14 feet sooner with ABS than they did when we turned it off. > > First off, braking on ice is going to be difficult for just about any tire > short of studded tires. > Tons of siping helps. What the previous comments fails to mention is, how > was braking with the > snow tires versus the all-seasons??? > >> Our advice: Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if you live in a snowy >> area >> or want added peace of mind. For maximum traction, equip it with winter >> tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a set of winter tires >> should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four wheels for balanced >> handling. Remove them after winter, since these tires wear quickly on dry >> roads (plan on about three winters of use). And be sure to opt for ABS on >> any vehicle. > > Fairly good advice but their entire test left out us RWD folks... > > Overall, Consumer Reports' tests seemed to be pretty simplified if this > snippet was > representative. Testing acceleration on one type of surface and braking > on ice isn't terribly > representative. > > Later, > > Rich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:56:32 -0400 From: "Rob Levinson * UUC Motorwerks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Dorffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Overall, Consumer Reports' tests seemed to be pretty simplified if this snippet was > representative. Testing acceleration on one type of surface and braking on ice isn't terribly > representative. They usually are. I always find CR's automotive testing amusingly inappropriate. The demerits to the Corvette for inferior cargo room pretty much sums up the entire thing. They're great with the toasters and paper towels. No comparison. - Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:51:35 -0400 From: "Steve Stoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Boy this thread is almost like religion. I have a few data points. 89 325ix with modern snow tires. Scalded dog acceleration, but hey, you gotta be able to brake and turn. Good for 6-7 inches of fresh unplowed snow before clearance issues halt progress. This is the reason you see so many SUVs in the ditch around the Washington area. 4 wheel drive gets em going but doesn't help them manage the two tons of inertia once under way. My driveway is 1/2 mile long, mostly uphill, with the steepest part being the first 50 feet with no room to get a head of steam. My F150 4x4 with Michelin M&S (fair amount of siping) won't even start up the hill with the smallest amount of snow in 2wd, but lock in those hubs and go to 4x4 and she'll chug through 12 inches of unplowed driveway. Once I get to the roads 2WD is usually enough. Which is the point of an AWD or 4x4 for me. Braking, turning and acceleration on the road are moot if the vehicle is still at the bottom of the driveway. There are times and places for AWD, 4x4, 2WD with snow tires etc. Depends on where you are what you've got to deal with. Steve Stoner 97 M3-Laughs at snow from comfort of the garage on summer high performance tires 92 F150 - Laughs at snow, laughs at me in the snow locking manual hubs 03 Explorer - Laughs at snow with auto engage 4x4, with option to lock hubs from comfort of heated seats. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:09:41 -0700 (PDT) From: wy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In the past, I have read similar FWD, RWD, AWD, all seasons tire and snow tires comparisons in C&D. My conclusion are simply AWD with snows tires if you need to traverse steep gradient. RWD on snows tires if the snow accumulates. Will Get Firefox! __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:06:11 -0400 From: "Rich Dorffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Cc: "Mark Gold" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: E30 318is Flywheel (was No big motor tourings was E46 advice) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Speaking of the dual-mass flywheel in the M42 equipped 318, anyone change it? What to? I know of using the single mass flywheel from an M20B25 equipped E30 as follows: The standard OE M20 flywheel is 8.5 kg (~18.7 lbs) while the standard OE M42 twin-mass flywheel is 12.25 kg (~27.0 lbs). Also, the M20 325i clutch weighs around 1.29 kg (2.8 lbs) while the M42 clutch is 0.83 kg (1.8 lbs) so it looks like the net weight reduction would be 7.3 lbs or about 25%. Supposedly, you need a 325i flywheel, 325i clutch, 325i pressure plate, 325i drive-pinion for the starter motor, and a '78-'83 323 throw-out bearing. Anyone? Issues? Regards, Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mark Gold > Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:11 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [UUC] No big motor tourings was E46 advice > > > I had heard that it was around $1 million as well. A number of years > ago I was told that was the reason the (e30) 91 318i/318is and 91-92 > 318ic were not available in the States with an auto tranny. Not that > anyone in their right mind would want to. As it is, their dual-mass > flywheel already does a good job keeping their performance bottled up. > > -Mark Gold > 1991 Lagunengr�n 318ic ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 08:50:05 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Kevin Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "BMW BMW BMW BMW" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A test like this depends on the tires and the snow. A nearly new all season tire does very well on snow that is not very deep and soft enough to leave a footprint. But the all season loses much of its snow traction as it wears. Of course there is a wide range of tires that are labeled all season. Temperature plays a big role also. Normal tread compounds get hard at low temps. Couple this with harder snow and ice, and relative performance of the all season drops with dropping temperatures. Special snow tire compounds stay soft to much lower temperatures. Weight distribution is another factor. BMW Tourings have 53% or more of their weight on the drive wheels, this makes for very good traction, equal to FWD when accelerating or hill climbing. The reason for my post was to distinguish the "want" for AWD because it is fashionable from the "need" for AWD due to severe driving conditions. AWD adds weight, complexity and cost and consumes extra fuel at all times. I want the buyer to review their own situation and choose appropriately based on some facts. The hierarchy should be to add snow tires first, then use AWD with snow tires when really necessary. Gary Derian > I've been reading various automotive on line e-mail lists and message > boards > for over 10 years and I bet I've read over a hundred posts like Gary's > stating that 4 snow tires with RWD (or FWD) is better than all season > tires > and AWD. > > I'm wondering if anyone that has actually done a side by side comparison > will still come out and say that snow tires and RWD is better than all > season tires and AWD in the snow. I have never done a "side by side" > comparison but did > get a chance to drive my old Toyota 4x4 (with the hubs unlocked) in RWD > with > snow tires and it did not have as much traction as it did the day before > in > 4WD with (worn) all season tires (it was amazing in 4WD with the snow > tires > on all four wheels). > > It does not snow in San Francisco but I make it up to Tahoe quite a bit in > the winter and with the exception of 2WD vehicles with "studded" snow > tires > on ice I have never experienced any 2WD vehicle that will perform as well > in > the snow as my AWD Range Rover with all season tires. > > Kevin Kelly > BMW CCA 50039 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:56:40 -0500 From: "Andrew Harkonen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "UUCDigest" <[email protected]> Subject: E34 Touring questions Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Group, I have finally converted my wife to a BMW. We sold her Honda Accord and found her a clean '93 525iT. Like any used car you pick up, there are a few items that need attention. I would appreciate any advice before I jump in. The first is no power to some of the accessories on the tailgate. For example, the rear wiper does not work, but the washer fluid squirter-thingy does, also I have no power to the glass hatch micro switch, yet the gate micro switch works fine. So, before I tear into the wires at the gate hinge, has anyone BTDT that can give me any pointers? Or, should I just dive in. By the way, all the fuses check out. The second item is the sun roof (insert groan from the crowd here). I have traced the problem down to a broken "actuation unit" part # 54128120679 on the drivers side. Does anyone know if I can replace the broken piece, or am I looking at a whole cassette for the sunroof. If I need a cassette, this car may just have lost all hope of ever having a working sunroof. TIA Andrew Harkonen '89 535i 5spd '93 525iT BMWCCA -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 50 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:02:59 -0500 From: "Andrew Harkonen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ben Keyes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "UUCDigest" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: E34 Touring questions Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ben, Thanks for the reply. The fluid reservoir is in the very back - passenger side. The hose runs up the D pillar and then into the gate - I'm pretty sure. On the touring, there is a small disc that is flush mounted near the wiper arm pivot. It pops up revealing a nozzle and sprays fluid, then sinks back into it's little hole. Pretty cool to watch, my neighbors got a kick out of it and kept asking me to make it pop up and squirt again and again - get your minds out of the gutter :-). Simple pleasures for simple minds I guess ( I hope my neighbors are not on this list). Besides that, I am missing 12v power to some parts of the gate and not others. Mark Distelhorst reminded me to check E34.net for a comprehensive write up of the electrical gremlins in the tail gate. Andrew Harkonen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Keyes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Andrew Harkonen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [UUC] E34 Touring questions it's not much of an answer, but I suspect that the reason the rear squirter works is that the pump is either in the load area somewhere and runs off body power or is all the way in the engine bay & is one of the pumps attached to the main resevoir. my wife's beater '86 Volvo 240 wagon works like this and it's pretty routine to run long tubes F-R for this purpose. with the right check valves in the system you don't have to have a huge pump nor worry about slow response time to switching on the squirter & waiting for fluid to come out. Ben On 5/5/05, Andrew Harkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello Group, > > I have finally converted my wife to a BMW. We sold her Honda Accord and > found her a clean '93 525iT. Like any used car you pick up, there are a few > items that need attention. I would appreciate any advice before I jump in. > The first is no power to some of the accessories on the tailgate. For > example, the rear wiper does not work, but the washer fluid squirter-thingy > does, also I have no power to the glass hatch micro switch, yet the gate > micro switch works fine. So, before I tear into the wires at the gate > hinge, has anyone BTDT that can give me any pointers? Or, should I just > dive in. By the way, all the fuses check out. > > The second item is the sun roof (insert groan from the crowd here). I have > traced the problem down to a broken "actuation unit" part # 54128120679 on > the drivers side. Does anyone know if I can replace the broken piece, or am > I looking at a whole cassette for the sunroof. If I need a cassette, this > car may just have lost all hope of ever having a working sunroof. TIA > > Andrew Harkonen > '89 535i 5spd > '93 525iT > BMWCCA > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. > It has removed 50 spam emails to date. > Paying users do not have this message in their emails. > Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 50 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:05:39 -0400 From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It all depends on what you mean by "better". As the Coordinator for the Boston Chapter Ice Racing Series, I'll provide a little insight. http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/events/2005/ice-racing Generally, an AWD vehicle with poor all-season tires will accelerate better than a RWD or even a FWD car with excellent snow tires in snow or on ice (assuming reasonably equivalent power and weight). Simply put, the traction of four driving wheels is far superior to two driving wheels. However, AWD does little or nothing to help braking or cornering. At our Ice Races (Autocrossing on a frozen lake) the best RWD and FWD performances are sometimes not too far off the best AWD performances. So, you can "go" better and faster with AWD and all season tires, but will handle better and be safer with RWD and good snow tires. Stan > From: "Kevin Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: AWD vs. RWD and Snow Tires > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > Why do you need AWD? 4 snow tires with RWD are better than all > > season tires and AWD. > > I've been reading various automotive on line e-mail lists and message boards > for over 10 years and I bet I've read over a hundred posts like Gary's > stating that 4 snow tires with RWD (or FWD) is better than all season tires > and AWD. > > I'm wondering if anyone that has actually done a side by side comparison > will still come out and say that snow tires and RWD is better than all > season tires and AWD in the snow. I have never done a "side by side" > comparison but did > get a chance to drive my old Toyota 4x4 (with the hubs unlocked) in RWD with > snow tires and it did not have as much traction as it did the day before in > 4WD with (worn) all season tires (it was amazing in 4WD with the snow tires > on all four wheels). > > It does not snow in San Francisco but I make it up to Tahoe quite a bit in > the winter and with the exception of 2WD vehicles with "studded" snow tires > on ice I have never experienced any 2WD vehicle that will perform as well in > the snow as my AWD Range Rover with all season tires. > > Kevin Kelly > BMW CCA 50039 ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(12 messages) **********
