The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 563 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: E36 climate control panel fix Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: My 535 for sale on Ebay Re: e36 spring rates - track cars
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:17:55 -0600 From: Clarence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks to those who responded! I usually run either Blackhawk or Gingerman, both tough on brakes. Right now I don't have any ducting (though I plan to get the Bimmerworld setup) and building up heat isn't too difficult. So this summer (as long as it keeps running) I'll go back to the HT-10s, or give the new pad a try. Unlike many others, I prefer to swap out brakes and rotors at the track. Clarence West Bend, WI Carlos Lopez wrote: >--- Clarence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>I have heard numerous times that the HT-10 was designed for cars >>heavier than the E30. Excuse my ignorance (nah, who cares) but what >>does this mean? >> >> > >I think it may be so that enough heat is generated for them to work >well. A lot of racers that I see using these sometimes close up their >brake ducts even in the summer months. I think I remember James Clay >saying that unless it's 90 deg F outside you probably don't need full >ducting. > >I ran them in my E30 M3 and loved them. I ran them at Gingerman once >w/o ducting and that was the only time I felt fade. Gingerman is >extremely hard on brakes. > >At PRI (prof. racing ind.) show, we stopped by the Hawk booth and they >said they have some new pad that's supposedly even better than the >HT-10 I forget the name/model because it's not an HT-whatever type of >name. Something new. > >Carlos. > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:22:17 -0500 From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Depending on your level of expertise and the track (some are > harder on brakes than others. Stock is OK. Step up is the > Bimmerworld backing plates with an elbow pointing towards the > stock duct. Phase 2 would be running the ducting, though that > can get intrusive for daily driving. > > I'll second Mark D's comments as a second instructor. Stock > work well on the track for all but hard advanced driving. I > still go out on stock pads myself from time to time. The problem with running street pads is that you can burn through a set pretty quickly. Road Atl has a couple of REALLY hard braking zones, but there's time in between so running ducts isn't really a great idea. I ran through the front stock pads in under 5 hours of time there. I mean from out of the box the day before to driving home on backing plates. One thing though--don't bother with track pads unless you're running track tires. You should match components. I have bimmerworld's full ducting kit for the E30. I think I've never used it except at Sebring (which is brutal on it's own) on 95-100 degree days. That being said, I'm thinking of trying to get it set up so I can go with 2 different set ups if I can afford to get back into tracking. One would be a set of ducts that just pumps a lot of air into the wheel wells, the other would be ducting running all the way to the bimmerworld kit. > > Performance Friction PFZs are a compromise with slightly > higher operating temps than stock. Also consider the Carbo > Tech+ or XP8's > http://www.carbotecheng.com/prod-ct-compounds.htm or even the > Panther+ compound as another streetable entry level track > tire. Their temp ranges look good for entry level track > driving. Carbo techs are said to be more rotor and wheel > friendly. No direct experience, but I'm going to be trying > them this season. I tried the panther + and they seem to be pretty easy on rotors & their dust comes off easily, but they really seem to be an aggressive street/autocross pad. They do work very well cold for autocross. They don't seem to have a really long lifespan either as they are half-gone after about 2-3 hours at CMP which isn't so hard on brakes. > > Reasonable entry level track pad, though I migrated to PF90 > pads before I became a sophisticated consumer. Bit more bite > and better wear than stock as I remember, though not the same > durebility as the PF pads. About a year ago, I had someone offer me a 50% of these. I should've taken them as I'd like to run racing pads (especially in conjunction with the ABS off) to see what they're like, but I haven't done any track events in this time so they'd've just rusted in the meantime. > > Marc Plante > E36 M3/4 > Vienna, VA Lee 88 M3->poor little guy deserves an owner who's able to take him to the track every week or two....... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:12:49 -0500 From: "chet.dawes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I've received some great feedback on pad choices......and a few that have me confused. Are people really recommending stock pads for dedicated track use on a modified car? I have to admit, my direct experience is from other BMW's with smaller OE brakes, but track pads have become a necessity in my case. Plus I've found that SS lines and a good track pad really change the pedal feel (for the better). I'm a DE student out there to learn and I've never even seen/cared about a measured lap time for myself. I'm not concerned so much with being able to minimize lap times as I am safety. I want consistent brakes so I can work on consistency myself. Tires stop the car......the brakes simply transfer kinetic energy to heat and dissipate it. :) -----Original Message----- Re: e36 brake pads - track cars >From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >What group do you run at DE's? If anything but "Advanced," I'd >recommend using stock pads and working on your braking technique. Just >my $0.02 as an instructor. While it depends on the DE, track, etc; I run in the moderate/advanced groups. I've been around the block enough to experience light pad fade with 'stock' brakes on a modified car at the track. As such, I've "graduated" to the use of a track pad since then, however the M3 brakes are significantly larger (but the car is heavier too) than my previous track steed. So it's possible that I could get by without track pads. I'd prefer to take the plunge with this car early and be prepared rather than experience fade. >It has EVERYTHING to do with the rain. >I find Simple Green does a decent job of removing the dust on the >wheels, BTW. Great, I'll try some Simple Green next time! Like I said, I was very happy with the performance/feel of the Hawk Blue compound. I'm just considering alternatives since it is a new application for me. >From: Marc Plante >Depending on your level of expertise and the track (some are harder on >brakes than others. Stock is OK. Step up is the Bimmerworld backing >plates with an elbow pointing towards the stock duct. Phase 2 would be >running the ducting, though that can get intrusive for daily driving. >I'll second Mark D's comments as a second instructor. Stock work well on >the track for all but hard advanced driving. I still go out on stock pads >myself from time to time. Someone mentioned removal of the OE backing plates. Does this aid cooling significantly? I like the shielding these offer to keep heat transfer to the ball joint down, etc. Is it worth removal of these? Thanks to all! Cheers, Chet Dawes **************************************************************************************** Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. **************************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:51:28 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Feb 25, 2005, at 8:12 AM, chet.dawes wrote: > I've received some great feedback on pad choices......and a few that > have me confused. Are people really recommending stock pads for > dedicated track use on a modified car? It depends entirely on the skill level of the driver. Just because you've got a ton of mods to your car doesn't mean you know how to drive it (I'm using the general "you" in this case). Example: I do a lot of instructing for the Audi Club. They tend to have a lot of students with 400HP chipped, coil-over'd, Hoosier'd S4's. We spend a lot of time blazing down the straights and creeping through the corners. :) To go a bit further, sometimes those car mods really hold back a driver's progress in learning to drive because they can mask problems. Race brake pads are a good example, actually. You can get away with a lot of bad braking techniques when you've got high-temp pads (particularly relative to your skill level/speed). This is all obviously my opinion but I'm a strong proponent of learning to drive on a stock car and modding the driver, not the car, until the car is the weak link. The other benefit of this is that you get to take all your driver mods with you when you upgrade to a new ride! - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:00:42 -0500 From: "Dinah DeRoller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mark Dadgar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ditto everything that Mark said about learning on a stock car. As an instructor nothing frustrates me more than having to deal with a person with too much car, and no skill. Well, maybe this is more frustrating: A kid in riced-out saturn follows me to supermarket parking lot where we proceed to discuss my car and the mods I've made to it, and wants to know where he can get a "custom roll bar" like mine so that he can street race. Q: "What's the first mod I should make to my car?" A: "Tighten the nut behind the wheel". Dinah '97 M3, many mods '98 F355 Challenge (aka "the hornet") ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Dadgar To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [UUC] e36 brake pads - track cars Example: I do a lot of instructing for the Audi Club. They tend to have a lot of students with 400HP chipped, coil-over'd, Hoosier'd S4's. We spend a lot of time blazing down the straights and creeping through the corners. :) To go a bit further, sometimes those car mods really hold back a driver's progress in learning to drive because they can mask problems. Race brake pads are a good example, actually. You can get away with a lot of bad braking techniques when you've got high-temp pads (particularly relative to your skill level/speed). This is all obviously my opinion but I'm a strong proponent of learning to drive on a stock car and modding the driver, not the car, until the car is the weak link. The other benefit of this is that you get to take all your driver mods with you when you upgrade to a new ride! - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:53:52 -0500 From: "Dinah DeRoller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "chet.dawes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Chet - I *personally* do not recommend stock pads for track driving for anyone beyond the intermediate level. Others may differ. My original reason for switching was fade, and I've tried several different types of "hybrid" pads that were basically useless (warped rotors, pads done in less than a day, etc). Some will say (and I agree) that once you get to a certain level, track pads for the track, street pads for the street. Dinah '97 M3 with many mods '98 F355 Challenge ----- Original Message ----- From: chet.dawes To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [UUC] e36 brake pads - track cars I've received some great feedback on pad choices......and a few that have me confused. Are people really recommending stock pads for dedicated track use on a modified car? I have to admit, my direct experience is from other BMW's with smaller OE brakes, but track pads have become a necessity in my case. Plus I've found that SS lines and a good track pad really change the pedal feel (for the better). I'm a DE student out there to learn and I've never even seen/cared about a measured lap time for myself. I'm not concerned so much with being able to minimize lap times as I am safety. I want consistent brakes so I can work on consistency myself. Tires stop the car......the brakes simply transfer kinetic energy to heat and dissipate it. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:57:24 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Feb 25, 2005, at 8:53 AM, Dinah DeRoller wrote: > I *personally* do not recommend stock pads for track driving for anyone > beyond the intermediate level. Others may differ. My original reason > for > switching was fade, and I've tried several different types of "hybrid" > pads > that were basically useless (warped rotors, pads done in less than a > day, > etc). Some will say (and I agree) that once you get to a certain level, > track pads for the track, street pads for the street. My own personal experience with this was that the brake fade issues I experienced as an intermediate student were due to technique weakness, not paid weakness. Intermediate students are tricky. Fast enough to get into trouble but not good enough to get out of it. :) - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:59:27 -0800 From: JKerouac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: E36 climate control panel fix Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There's the 'droid I'm looking for. Thx, Barry Jim Bassett wrote: >On Thu, February 24, 2005 1:58 am, JKerouac said: > > >>Been looking for the 'soldering iron' fix to the E36 climate control >>panel. Anyone have the direct link for it? >> >>http://www.macadamizer.com/bmwfix.html >>Cheers, >>Jim Bassett >>1998 M3/4 - fixed per above >>1993 325is #44 JP >> >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:28:07 -0500 From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For my own edification, why would this be better for ride? I can understand why stiffer front springs would require more steering attention due to bumps, etc, but why would a softer front bias improve the overall ride? I can also imagine that this would increase brake dive & the car's tendency to understeer. I do know that the coil-over & stiff-springed E36 M3s I've driven were much more fun than the stock cars while also feeling more balanced & controllable. Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Derian > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 19:40 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [UUC] e36 spring rates - track cars > > You will note that the street springs are much stiffer in the > rear than the front. Even when converted to wheel rate > (motion ratio^2) the rear rate will be higher than the front. > This is an important feature for a good ride. > > The race guys run much stiffer in the front. This is bad for ride. > > Another consideration is the stock shock mounts are useless > when the shock rates get stiff, as they must when going to > very stiff springs. > > Gary Derian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:39:23 -0500 From: "chet.dawes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> First off, Thank you all for the feedback on and spring rates! This is exactly what I was after. To address a few detailed comments directly, see my notes below: >From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Unfortunately, these numbers are kind of meaningless without knowing >what sway bars are paired with them. > - Mark, who drools over Motons Mark, I asked for the spring rates......because I've measured the motion ratios. I'm well aware of the difference between spring rate and wheel rate and the effect/impact of sway bars on the wheel rates. I appreciate you calling this to my (and everyone's) attention as it's a very important point. In my case it is already under consideration. Yeah, I love the idea of triple adjustable remote reservoir dampers too....but hey they cost ~twice what I paid for this M3! ;-) >From: Fernando Mujica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >I remember I did survey of spring rates a while back when I was trying >to decide on my setup. I settled with 400/500 f/r. This is with the >GC track school kit + GC CCPs + SA Konis. Stock sways. At the >track/autox, I run about -3 and -2.5 degrees of camber front and rear, >respectively. This should be also part of your equation. >Regarding motion ratio, I recently asked this question in another list. > I was told close to 1:1 in front and 1:1.8 in rear, or about .55. >Good luck, > Fernando Fernando, I've measured both front and rear motion ratios now (did the front last night) and with confidence, after I've compared with 3 independent and trusted measurements from e36 coupes now, can report a front ratio (spring/hub movement) of 0.82 and a rear ratio of 0.64. The accuracy of these numbers is pretty important because any error is squared when converted to wheel rate. 0.82 could be considered 'close to 1:1', but once squared the error could be 33% in wheel rate. My initial set-up will be nearly exactly like yours: SA Koni's, 400/500 springs (because those are the closest springs I had on-hand to start with), K-mac camber plates.....although I may upsize the sway bars. Yes, I'll use camber too, but I consider camber a fine tune knob which is mostly a function of tire wear/temps rather than dialing in/out oversteer. >From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >You will note that the street springs are much stiffer in the rear than the >front. Even when converted to wheel rate (motion ratio^2) the rear rate >will be higher than the front. This is an important feature for a good >ride. >The race guys run much stiffer in the front. This is bad for ride. >Another consideration is the stock shock mounts are useless when the shock >rates get stiff, as they must when going to very stiff springs. >Gary Derian Gary, Yes, I noticed the relative soft front rate. I've been trying to figure out how BMW achieves a fair balance with wheel rates that soft in the front compared to rear. I was not considering ride comfort.....that makes sense. Ride is not a huge concern in my situation. That's what the wife's e46 sedan is for. ;-) My initial concern was that a +300% change in front wheel rate compared to a +70% change in the rear would result in HUGE understeer. It seems that's the trend of the track cars and the results are pretty balanced though. Hence my inquiry for all types of data. Thanks everyone! Cheers, Chet Dawes **************************************************************************************** Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. **************************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:36:03 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: My 535 for sale on Ebay Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Michael, Is that an old Torino in the garage? -Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Bassett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Thu, February 24, 2005 6:10 pm, Mark Dadgar said: >> Me too but I can buy a whole E36 for what they cost, I'll just be >> content with the ADs and the GrpN Bilsteins which ever ones I keep. > > I've got the AD's and I like them quite a bit. But I'd go to Moton > ClubSports (which are a REALLY good deal) in heartbeat if they were > legal in Prepared. Just to jump in quicky, my car has the GrpN Bilsteins (recently rebuild to original specs) with H&R springs (120F/140R (metric) -> 685F/800R) and Eibach swaybars (as installed by PO). Only the swaybars are adjustable, which is good, it keeps me from fookin(tm) up the car too much :-) I'm happy with this setup (although it can be a bit uncomfortable at times driving to/from the track). Even after 3 years with the car, I know I'm still not getting the most out of the car as it is, so spending more money to replace this with a more adjustable suspension didn't make sense to me (for now :-)). My 2 cents, Jim Bassett 1998 M3/4 1993 325is #44 JP ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(12 messages) **********
