At 04:21 PM 9/27/01 +0200 Baardwijk, J. van DTO/SLBD/BGM/SVM/SGM wrote:
>Ah, so the fact that I criticise America also means I cannot possibly feel
>sorry for the victims of the attack. Oh well, that is quite understandable
>of course, since I am merely an European, which as we all know are inferior
>mindless people, who cannot even begin to understand the god-like greatness
>of Americans... :(
This criticism of me is false.
Actually, I've always sort of liked Europeans like Tony Blair and Joschka
Fischer, and lately I have only become all the more impressed with them.
Then of course, there's Karol Wojtyla (Pope JPII) whom I think is just
amazing. I admittedly have not seen that much of Europeans like Javier
Solana, Llyod Robertson, Jose Maria Aznar, and others but I can't say of
anything offhand that I would disparage them over. (Well, Mr. Aznar is a
little tough on the Basques, methinks, but that seems like nitpicking in
the grand scheme of things.)
So, I think that there is suficient evidence to disprove your opinion that
I have a bias against Europeans.
In other words, maybe its not the opinions of Europeans that I disagree
with - maybe its *you* that I disagree with.
I'm sure that it is possible that you feel sorry for the victims of the
attack, but I can only go by what you write, and really, I can't recall
much at all of what you've written that indicates much sympathy for the
victims of the attack.
On the other hand, while most Americans have been reeling from this attack,
the following response is sort of typical of what we've seem from you:
>> Man, Jeroen, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today, or
>> what? All your posts today have been bash, bash, bash.......
>
>And I ain't finished yet. There are still about eight or nine messages
>marked "Respond to this" in my Inbox... <EVIL GRIN>
Sorry Jeroen, but I think that I speak for a lot of list members when I say
that I don't see much sorrow in posts like that.
By an "<EVIL GRIN>", I can only assume that you take pride and/or pleasure
in writing posts that are simply "bash, bash, bash." You should not
expect to "bash, bash, bash" and not suffer the consequences - namely
strong responses from me.
>> It couldn't be the utter absence of concession statements in every one
>> one of your arguments, you know anything that suggests that even can
>> see American points of view, even if you disagree with them, could it?
>
>Oh, so I am supposed to start every sentence that contains some criticism of
>the US with the words "I can understand your point, but ..."! Why did you
>not say so earlier!
>
>I suggest that we add this to the Etiquette Guidelines, so new members will
>know about this and not commit the heinous crime of criticising the US
>without making "concession statements" in every critical post.
This is false also.
There you go again. I suggest that you should do something
*occasionally*, and you lambaste me as directing you to do something *every
time.* Get a grip man.
All I'm saying is that if you wanted to criticize America at a time when
the Americans on this List are feeling rather raw, sore, shocked, and
depressed - it would help keep many of the Americans like myself from
jumping down your throat if you'd at least TRY to create the appearance of
being reasonable about it.
>FYI, I *asked* this list if it would be immoral to make a profit in relation
>to these horrible events -- I never said it *is* immoral. Unfortunately,
>your habit of seemingly deliberately misinterpreting what I write led you to
>believe that I said all kinds of things that I really did not say; a belief
>that in your mind warranted launching a full-blown Jeroen-bashing campaign.
>Man, you must be feeling very proud of yourself right about now...
No, what you perceive as a full-blown Jeroen campaign resulted from you
vilely trying to drive a valuable listmember off of the List, and from you
not having the common sense to be a bit more sensitive to the American
members of this Community following an unspeakable tragedy. Based on what
has happened previously here, I have vowed that I am not going to let
intolerance of List Members go unchallenged. Ordinarily, I would
challenge that intolerance off-List. As I attempted with you, practically
begging you in my most reasonable voice possible to at least make
non-apology apology that would help calm everyone's tempers and nerves.
For my efforts, I was rewarded with a place in your killfile. Therfore,
you have left me no choice but to challenge your intolerance On-List.
Of course, if you would *like* me to stop responding harshly to your List
Posts, STOP THE INTOLERANCE! Instead, post to the List something to the
effect of "While I believe that my criticisms of America are necessary to
help make America the best possible country can be, I apologize for not
spending enough time showing solidarity with the the American people in
their grief since September 11th, and perhaps being a little too harsh with
my criticisms while America was hurting after being stung by our mutual
enemies."
For example, if you claim that you are being misinterpreted, you could
simply settle this whole issue by stating your opinion on the morality of
letting construction companies earn profits when rebuilding from wars,
disasters, and tragedies. The fact that you will not state your opinion
suggests that you are at least considering an opinion that many Americans
find unthinkable - and that opinion will therfore be duly criticized in the
harshest possible terms.
>You mean, in the way you have a vitriolic knee-jerk reaction to almost
>everything I say that cannot be interpreted as mindless praise of the US?
Just once, some mindful praise of the US from you would be refreshing.
At 03:25 PM 9/27/01 +0200 Baardwijk, J. van DTO/SLBD/BGM/SVM/SGM wrote:
>> >I will be more than happy to say something nice about Israel -- as
>> >soon as I *find* something nice to say about Israel.
>>
>> For someone who:
>>
>> A) Does not like other List Members thinking of him as being
>> Anti-Semitic.
>
>Criticism of Israeli politics does not equal anti-Semitism.
Never said it was. Indeed, as Dan M. has noted, virtually every List
Member that has said good things about Israel has criticized them also.
Yet, those list Members that that generally criticize Israel - i.e. *you* -
have never said a single good thing about Israel. Indeed, you have said
that it is not possible.
Jeroen, the inability to say a single good thing about a democracy that is
surrounded by totalitarian dictatorships, in my humble opinion, can only be
based upon a dislike for the ethnic group that is most predominant in that
democracy. I am sure that you will protest otherwise, but you are truly
unable to find a single nice thing to say about Israel, then that strongly
raises the specter with me that you are an Anti-Semite.
And using the above logic, if you never say good things about America and
American government...... then its just possible that you're an
Anti-American too.
>> and
>>
>> B) Never admits that he's wrong,
>
>It is quite possible I have been proven wrong in the past. Being proven
>wrong does not mean however that I have to publicly admit it. Heck, if you
>would have done that every time someone proved you wrong, you would have
>become Alpha-Mail a very long time ago...
Once again, Jeroen, its not that you should *always* admit that you are
wrong, its that you *never* admit that you are wrong, even when you are wrong.
Likewise, its not that you shuold *always* say good things about Israel,
its that you *never* say good things about Israel.
Indeed, it is not that you should *always* sing the praises of America, its
that you *never* compliment America.
>> That was a pretty stupid thing to say.
>
>And that was a pretty insulting remark to make (and not the first one coming
>from you, either).
>
>I am sick and tired of being insulted by you. Go away.
So, its me this time, eh? Last time, you wanted Bob Z. to leave. I'm
guessing that Brad DeLong leaving was just a bonus for you. And now its
me. Still, despite your ultimatum, "You know, this List isn't big enough
for the both of us." Well guess what - I'm not leaving. And I hope
that you aren't either. More importantly, it does not have to be this way.
This may come as a surprise to you, Jeroen, but let me repeat, "I *don't
want* you to leave."
Indeed, that's why I keep trying to give you an "exit strategy." That's
why I tried so hard to agree with you last weekend, even though there were
a few minor points in that "agreement post" we had that I could have
quibbled with. That's why I posted that "softball" yesterday, to give you
a chance to try and start calming everyone's emotions.
There is a way out.
I just hope that you can take it.
But do be rest-assured, I will not let your policy of "bash, bash, bash" go
unchallenged. And if you are thinking about accusing me of some of the
very same bad List behaviour I have accused you have - well you are
probably at the very least partly justified in doing so. I have been
harsh with you, albeit for what I judge to be a good reason. I would just
ask that you consider, however, how many List Members have also criticized
your behaviour lately, and how many List Members have defended your
behaviour, and possibly consider that they may have a point.
JDG
__________________________________________________________
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ICQ #3527685
"Freedom itself was attacked today, and Freedom will be Defended."
-U.S. President George W. Bush, 09/11/01
