>in the end, experience tells all.
That is really all i was trying to get at but my question still remains why
do companies ignore those of us that don't have degree's when we can and
will do a better job than the guy with the degree. When i have 3 yrs
experience and the guy in front of me has 1 1/2 years and a degree they will
look through me. Just doesn't make sense. especially if experience tells it
all.
Jay Patton
Web Design / Application Design
Web Pro USA
p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
url. www.webpro-usa.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Funaro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
> Hi Jay,
>
> Guess I'll be the first to reply, but I am sure there'll be other replies
> along the same lines as my own.
>
> I used to feel the way you do, and perhaps as early as 10 years ago I'd
have
> said the same thing. However, my experience has "mellowed" me some, and
> given me some insight.
>
> I spent over $14K on my college education. (I know, for many that's
really
> LOW, but you have to admit, it's still a chunk of change. A new car,
> perhaps...)
>
> My degree is in Music.
>
> These days, I do very little with music, except listen to Pat Metheny
while
> writing code.
>
> Still, I would not trade that time (and money!) spent on school for
> anything. Not even a beer.
>
> I've learned that it's not just WHAT you learn when you have a college
> education, but it's also the fact that you are "trainable", flexible, and
to
> a large degree, can express a commitment to something from beginning to
end.
> These qualities are just as important to a (good) employer as how fast you
> can write good code.
>
> I've met quite a few developers, who really do seem to know what they are
> doing. They can't spell worth a damn, can't "talk" to clients the way
> clients expect to be treated, and are more often than not "inflexible" to
> change. They know what they know. I might even still be in those
> categories... to some extent. But you have to remember, college offers
MORE
> than just "here's how to do this". It also offers "here's how to continue
> learning" and "here's something hard to accomplish, at times feels
> irrelevant, and takes a lot of time and concentration to do. Do it, and
> we'll tell the world you can do it."
>
> Math is my downfall too. But even now, I still consider going back to
> college, to take CIS courses and perhaps a second degree (only this time,
it
> would probably only be a two-year deal!!)
>
> In fact, not too long ago there was a series of articles in the major
papers
> about how us "liberal arts" folks were first in line for hire in the
> technology arena, because we were so "diverse". Go figure.
>
> If someone has a degree and still can't "cut it", they're usually found
out
> in the end. And yes, I do believe that having a degree allows you to
stand
> ahead of the "self taught" guy in the employment line. But not by much...
> in the end, experience tells all.
>
> Hope this helps provide a different point of view.
>
> .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Marc Funaro, President
> Advantex Technical Consulting Services
> 5547 State Highway 12
> Norwich, NY 13815
> Phone: 607-336-6895
> Fax: 801-383-4864
> Internet: http://www.advantex.net
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> "You know, I have one simple request... and that is,
> to have SHARKS with Frickin' LASER BEAMS attached
> to their HEADS..."
>
> --Dr. Evil
> .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Patton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 3:06 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
>
>
> .....Sorry in advance...
>
> Here Goes, (just a few questions)
>
> <agree>
> I totaly agree with you (Kevin) that "I think a CS degree would be
> inappropriate for most CF development work."
> </agree>
>
> <!!!rant!!!>
>
> One thing I've never understood though, is why do "they" (they being
schools
> or whoever sets up the requirements to obtain a CS degree) have to put so
> much math in with all of it. Yes i can see how it would help, however math
> was my VERY WORST of subjects in school. And i seem to get by perfectly
fine
> with programming. (Oddly enough i was VERY good in physics, don't ask me
> how) I did not go to college (mainly because i couldn't afford it) and yet
i
> still got a good job in web development. so why do so many companies
require
> such degrees? I find upsetting when you get turned down for another
> candidate that has a CS degree, but yet you have more experience. I have
> seen companies turn people away before even speaking with them just
because
> they don't have a degree of any sort. Some of the best programmers that i
> know never even went to college. One day they just picked up a book and
> started reading and applying what they learn from that. what honestly, is
> the difference from; going to school for 4 years wasting a lot of money,
or
> picking up a few books from Barnes and noble or the local university book
> store and learning on your own? a piece of paper that says HERE YOU HAVE
> COMPLETED YOUR CS DEGREE. I have learned more on my own in the last 6
> months than a friend of mine in Spokane, WA. has from Gonzaga University.
> and he is going for his CS Degree. By the time he is done i will have 5 -
6
> years of work experience and he will be stuck looking for one of those
entry
> level jobs because he wasted what time he could have used to learn more
(and
> probably faster), than sitting in class for 4 years to get that special
> piece of paper. Sorry i kind of strayed from my initial questions:
>
> </!!!rant!!!>
>
> Why do the have to put so much math in the course's?
> and
> Why do companies turn people away because they have no degree?
>
> That's it im done,
>
> Jay Patton
> Web Design / Application Design
> Web Pro USA
> p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
> p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
> e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> url. www.webpro-usa.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carlson, Kevin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:19 PM
> Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
>
>
> > Actually, I think a CS degree would be inappropriate for most CF
> development
> > work. I have a business degree in Computer Information Systems, which I
> > believe is more valuable for developing the majority of web-based
> > applications. Here are some general impressions I recall among various
> > curriculums (when I was in college, anyway ...):
> >
> > CS: 3 calculus courses, 3 physics courses, compiler design theory
> >
> > CIS: C, COBOL, Algebra, Discrete Math, Public Speaking, Systems
Analysis,
> > Systems Design, Database design, Organizational behavior
> >
> > EE: Fortran
> >
> > Of course, there are many more differences, and things have certainly
> > changed somewhat since I was in college (although Hey! I'm not that old
> .....)
> > but my overall sense is this:
> >
> > CS is more geared to the embedded-logic crowd - CS folks often work with
> > Electrical Engineers on such projects. No systems analysis or design
> > classes required. In other words, not end-user oriented. I'm sure many
> CS
> > folks have such skills, but they weren't provided by the required
> > coursework.
> >
> > CIS is geared towards business application developers, who will probably
> > never need calculus to do their work. The ability to think in terms of
> > large-scale, interconnected applications is emphasized. Also emphasized
> is
> > the ability to work closely with users, usually across multiple groups,
> each
> > with their own agenda (sound familiar?)
> >
> > Overall, I think that anyone who actually enjoyed doing algebra story
> > problems has a good chance at becoming a good programmer/developer. For
> > many people, it's just overkill to get a CS degree, IMHO.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:53:39 -0700
> > > From: Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: For those of you without a CS Degree
> > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > For those of you who are doing programming-type stuff without a CS
> > > degree. How did you learn programming logic? (Or did you?) I just
> can't
> > >
> > > imagine doing a good job without knowing what I know. I've seen so
much
> > > bad code.
> > >
> > > To everyone else, please watch your message quoting. It's getting
> hard
> > > to separate the new posts from the old posts in the digest. There is
no
> > > need to quote the last seventeen messages in a thread. Mabye it's
just
> > > me.
> > >
> > > |
> > > | -<erki>-
> > > |
> > >
> >
>
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