See, now I must add my couple of pennies, just, well, just because! :-)
I understand the reasoning behind employers wanting a degree...yes, college
makes you well rounded, yes you learn lots of great things, experience new
sights, meet new people...definintely a wonderful opportunity....for the
RIGHT person. And that's where employers, and people, need to try and see
the difference.
I do not have a college degree. I left after a year...could not hack it. AND
not from being lazy. I LOVE to learn things, but things I am interested in
learning. I'm not religious (used to be Catholic, gave it up, I feel too
hypocritical, but let us NOT go there!), teaching religion, or will I work
for a church, so why must I suffer through religious courses? Biology? Got
straight A's. Piece of cake. Did I enjoy it? No. Couldn't stand being in
there. Life is very short. You have to be able to enjoy what you are doing.
Joy and contentment are fundamental parts of the human psyche. Why must a
person who can't really hack it, suffer through this stuff just because
someone, somewhere, says that if they don't have a degree, they'll never be
able to make something of themselves? This is rubbish!
It also takes guts, fortitude, tenacity, a willingness to be wrong, a
willingness to lead the way, willingness to learn, hard work, humbleness,
street smarts, quick thinking, kindness, and forgiveness to get ahead in
this world. I'm sure I've left some great qualities out there, but people
that possess these strengths, they are documented all the time...and not all
of them have their degrees.....they may say they regret it, but that's not
right....you shouldn't live to regret. Sure, who doesn't want to take
something they said back or do something they didn't do, but if I had life
to live all over again, I'm not so sure I'd want to do anything different.
Some of those job positions that look for degrees? Well a lot of that is HR.
And I believe society is responsible for this way of thinking. For years and
years, this was a standard...but now, with the age of the internet and
technological advances and the brilliant minds that are being molded and
shaped by today's lifestyles, it doesn't mean the same anymore. Not that
people shouldn't go to college, by all means! If you can, and you WANT to,
go! But people as a whole should not be judged by that alone when it comes
to business.
What right does HR have to decide that because there's no MBA after your
name, that you don't know economics inside out and backwards and could write
the most brilliant business plan they've ever seen?
I've been the interview-ER, for various positions in different fields,
requiring different skill sets, and I've interviewed college grads, high
school drop-outs, and tech-school grads... and when it came right down to
it, the final factor was which one of the candidates was most excited by the
job? Had the most passion? Fire? Aptitude? .... sometimes, it's the
drop-outs.
Oh, geez.... Got me going.
Oh well.
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed
ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One
should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless and yet be
determined to make them otherwise." - F. Scott Fitzgerald
Erika
"Age is in the mind of the beholder." - Unknown
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 4:10 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
Yeah, to add fuel to the rant fire, I completely agree, My math skills are
somewhere below abysmal. Heck that's why Texas Instruments is doing so well,
CALCULATORS! :-)
I dropped out of school after a year, due in large part to my failing
Combinatorics, and Boolean Algebra!! Hello, I've been a developer for 7
years now and have never sat and thought, "damn I wish I had passed that
Combinatorics class, this would be so much easier." I left school pretty
disgusted with the whole thing, I think (in my limited experience) that
schools put more math into CS than they do business and logic. Both of which
I think have value above math.
I still chuckle when I see postings that require a CS degree, I've
interviewed quite a few people that have come straight out of school and
have no practical application experience, very very funny. I'm not dissing
schools or CS degrees, but the false idea that you'll land a bitchin job
right out of school without any actual experience is realized only by a
small percentage. Everyone else takes Junior developer jobs or worse yet
can't even get into the industry. So I think it's a good fit for the
companies that blindly hire based on having a piece of parchment.
Not too long ago I was turned down for a gig and it appears that the
decision was largely based on my not having a degree, forget the fact that I
had more years of experience than everyone else on that team, and that I've
been doing this for so many years, I didn't go to a University so I was
clearly a substandard developer..
Ok now I'm done too, Ranting always makes me hungry. :-)
J.
John Wilker
Web Applications Consultant
Allaire Certified ColdFusion Developer
www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
The Coca-Cola name in China was first read as "Kekoukela", meaning "Bite the
wax tadpole" or "female horse stuffed with wax", depending on the dialect.
Coke then researched 40,000 characters to find a phonetic equivalent "kokou
kole", translating into "happiness in the mouth."
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Patton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:06 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
......Sorry in advance...
Here Goes, (just a few questions)
<agree>
I totaly agree with you (Kevin) that "I think a CS degree would be
inappropriate for most CF development work."
</agree>
<!!!rant!!!>
One thing I've never understood though, is why do "they" (they being schools
or whoever sets up the requirements to obtain a CS degree) have to put so
much math in with all of it. Yes i can see how it would help, however math
was my VERY WORST of subjects in school. And i seem to get by perfectly fine
with programming. (Oddly enough i was VERY good in physics, don't ask me
how) I did not go to college (mainly because i couldn't afford it) and yet i
still got a good job in web development. so why do so many companies require
such degrees? I find upsetting when you get turned down for another
candidate that has a CS degree, but yet you have more experience. I have
seen companies turn people away before even speaking with them just because
they don't have a degree of any sort. Some of the best programmers that i
know never even went to college. One day they just picked up a book and
started reading and applying what they learn from that. what honestly, is
the difference from; going to school for 4 years wasting a lot of money, or
picking up a few books from Barnes and noble or the local university book
store and learning on your own? a piece of paper that says HERE YOU HAVE
COMPLETED YOUR CS DEGREE. I have learned more on my own in the last 6
months than a friend of mine in Spokane, WA. has from Gonzaga University.
and he is going for his CS Degree. By the time he is done i will have 5 - 6
years of work experience and he will be stuck looking for one of those entry
level jobs because he wasted what time he could have used to learn more (and
probably faster), than sitting in class for 4 years to get that special
piece of paper. Sorry i kind of strayed from my initial questions:
</!!!rant!!!>
Why do the have to put so much math in the course's?
and
Why do companies turn people away because they have no degree?
That's it im done,
Jay Patton
Web Design / Application Design
Web Pro USA
p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
url. www.webpro-usa.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlson, Kevin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:19 PM
Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
> Actually, I think a CS degree would be inappropriate for most CF
development
> work. I have a business degree in Computer Information Systems, which I
> believe is more valuable for developing the majority of web-based
> applications. Here are some general impressions I recall among various
> curriculums (when I was in college, anyway ...):
>
> CS: 3 calculus courses, 3 physics courses, compiler design theory
>
> CIS: C, COBOL, Algebra, Discrete Math, Public Speaking, Systems Analysis,
> Systems Design, Database design, Organizational behavior
>
> EE: Fortran
>
> Of course, there are many more differences, and things have certainly
> changed somewhat since I was in college (although Hey! I'm not that old
......)
> but my overall sense is this:
>
> CS is more geared to the embedded-logic crowd - CS folks often work with
> Electrical Engineers on such projects. No systems analysis or design
> classes required. In other words, not end-user oriented. I'm sure many
CS
> folks have such skills, but they weren't provided by the required
> coursework.
>
> CIS is geared towards business application developers, who will probably
> never need calculus to do their work. The ability to think in terms of
> large-scale, interconnected applications is emphasized. Also emphasized
is
> the ability to work closely with users, usually across multiple groups,
each
> with their own agenda (sound familiar?)
>
> Overall, I think that anyone who actually enjoyed doing algebra story
> problems has a good chance at becoming a good programmer/developer. For
> many people, it's just overkill to get a CS degree, IMHO.
>
> Regards,
> Kevin
>
> > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:53:39 -0700
> > From: Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: For those of you without a CS Degree
> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > For those of you who are doing programming-type stuff without a CS
> > degree. How did you learn programming logic? (Or did you?) I just
can't
> >
> > imagine doing a good job without knowing what I know. I've seen so much
> > bad code.
> >
> > To everyone else, please watch your message quoting. It's getting
hard
> > to separate the new posts from the old posts in the digest. There is no
> > need to quote the last seventeen messages in a thread. Mabye it's just
> > me.
> >
> > |
> > | -<erki>-
> > |
> >
>
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