Please read the whole line, "IN THE END, experience tells all." The foot in
the door part is usually easier if you've got that piece of paper, and it
will probably always be that way, no matter how much you fight it. Times
are changing... but not THAT fast.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Patton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 5:25 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
>in the end, experience tells all.
That is really all i was trying to get at but my question still remains why
do companies ignore those of us that don't have degree's when we can and
will do a better job than the guy with the degree. When i have 3 yrs
experience and the guy in front of me has 1 1/2 years and a degree they will
look through me. Just doesn't make sense. especially if experience tells it
all.
Jay Patton
Web Design / Application Design
Web Pro USA
p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
url. www.webpro-usa.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Funaro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
> Hi Jay,
>
> Guess I'll be the first to reply, but I am sure there'll be other replies
> along the same lines as my own.
>
> I used to feel the way you do, and perhaps as early as 10 years ago I'd
have
> said the same thing. However, my experience has "mellowed" me some, and
> given me some insight.
>
> I spent over $14K on my college education. (I know, for many that's
really
> LOW, but you have to admit, it's still a chunk of change. A new car,
> perhaps...)
>
> My degree is in Music.
>
> These days, I do very little with music, except listen to Pat Metheny
while
> writing code.
>
> Still, I would not trade that time (and money!) spent on school for
> anything. Not even a beer.
>
> I've learned that it's not just WHAT you learn when you have a college
> education, but it's also the fact that you are "trainable", flexible, and
to
> a large degree, can express a commitment to something from beginning to
end.
> These qualities are just as important to a (good) employer as how fast you
> can write good code.
>
> I've met quite a few developers, who really do seem to know what they are
> doing. They can't spell worth a damn, can't "talk" to clients the way
> clients expect to be treated, and are more often than not "inflexible" to
> change. They know what they know. I might even still be in those
> categories... to some extent. But you have to remember, college offers
MORE
> than just "here's how to do this". It also offers "here's how to continue
> learning" and "here's something hard to accomplish, at times feels
> irrelevant, and takes a lot of time and concentration to do. Do it, and
> we'll tell the world you can do it."
>
> Math is my downfall too. But even now, I still consider going back to
> college, to take CIS courses and perhaps a second degree (only this time,
it
> would probably only be a two-year deal!!)
>
> In fact, not too long ago there was a series of articles in the major
papers
> about how us "liberal arts" folks were first in line for hire in the
> technology arena, because we were so "diverse". Go figure.
>
> If someone has a degree and still can't "cut it", they're usually found
out
> in the end. And yes, I do believe that having a degree allows you to
stand
> ahead of the "self taught" guy in the employment line. But not by much...
> in the end, experience tells all.
>
> Hope this helps provide a different point of view.
>
> .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Marc Funaro, President
> Advantex Technical Consulting Services
> 5547 State Highway 12
> Norwich, NY 13815
> Phone: 607-336-6895
> Fax: 801-383-4864
> Internet: http://www.advantex.net
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> "You know, I have one simple request... and that is,
> to have SHARKS with Frickin' LASER BEAMS attached
> to their HEADS..."
>
> --Dr. Evil
> .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Patton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 3:06 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
>
>
> .....Sorry in advance...
>
> Here Goes, (just a few questions)
>
> <agree>
> I totaly agree with you (Kevin) that "I think a CS degree would be
> inappropriate for most CF development work."
> </agree>
>
> <!!!rant!!!>
>
> One thing I've never understood though, is why do "they" (they being
schools
> or whoever sets up the requirements to obtain a CS degree) have to put so
> much math in with all of it. Yes i can see how it would help, however math
> was my VERY WORST of subjects in school. And i seem to get by perfectly
fine
> with programming. (Oddly enough i was VERY good in physics, don't ask me
> how) I did not go to college (mainly because i couldn't afford it) and yet
i
> still got a good job in web development. so why do so many companies
require
> such degrees? I find upsetting when you get turned down for another
> candidate that has a CS degree, but yet you have more experience. I have
> seen companies turn people away before even speaking with them just
because
> they don't have a degree of any sort. Some of the best programmers that i
> know never even went to college. One day they just picked up a book and
> started reading and applying what they learn from that. what honestly, is
> the difference from; going to school for 4 years wasting a lot of money,
or
> picking up a few books from Barnes and noble or the local university book
> store and learning on your own? a piece of paper that says HERE YOU HAVE
> COMPLETED YOUR CS DEGREE. I have learned more on my own in the last 6
> months than a friend of mine in Spokane, WA. has from Gonzaga University.
> and he is going for his CS Degree. By the time he is done i will have 5 -
6
> years of work experience and he will be stuck looking for one of those
entry
> level jobs because he wasted what time he could have used to learn more
(and
> probably faster), than sitting in class for 4 years to get that special
> piece of paper. Sorry i kind of strayed from my initial questions:
>
> </!!!rant!!!>
>
> Why do the have to put so much math in the course's?
> and
> Why do companies turn people away because they have no degree?
>
> That's it im done,
>
> Jay Patton
> Web Design / Application Design
> Web Pro USA
> p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
> p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
> e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> url. www.webpro-usa.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carlson, Kevin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:19 PM
> Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
>
>
> > Actually, I think a CS degree would be inappropriate for most CF
> development
> > work. I have a business degree in Computer Information Systems, which I
> > believe is more valuable for developing the majority of web-based
> > applications. Here are some general impressions I recall among various
> > curriculums (when I was in college, anyway ...):
> >
> > CS: 3 calculus courses, 3 physics courses, compiler design theory
> >
> > CIS: C, COBOL, Algebra, Discrete Math, Public Speaking, Systems
Analysis,
> > Systems Design, Database design, Organizational behavior
> >
> > EE: Fortran
> >
> > Of course, there are many more differences, and things have certainly
> > changed somewhat since I was in college (although Hey! I'm not that old
> .....)
> > but my overall sense is this:
> >
> > CS is more geared to the embedded-logic crowd - CS folks often work with
> > Electrical Engineers on such projects. No systems analysis or design
> > classes required. In other words, not end-user oriented. I'm sure many
> CS
> > folks have such skills, but they weren't provided by the required
> > coursework.
> >
> > CIS is geared towards business application developers, who will probably
> > never need calculus to do their work. The ability to think in terms of
> > large-scale, interconnected applications is emphasized. Also emphasized
> is
> > the ability to work closely with users, usually across multiple groups,
> each
> > with their own agenda (sound familiar?)
> >
> > Overall, I think that anyone who actually enjoyed doing algebra story
> > problems has a good chance at becoming a good programmer/developer. For
> > many people, it's just overkill to get a CS degree, IMHO.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:53:39 -0700
> > > From: Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: For those of you without a CS Degree
> > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > For those of you who are doing programming-type stuff without a CS
> > > degree. How did you learn programming logic? (Or did you?) I just
> can't
> > >
> > > imagine doing a good job without knowing what I know. I've seen so
much
> > > bad code.
> > >
> > > To everyone else, please watch your message quoting. It's getting
> hard
> > > to separate the new posts from the old posts in the digest. There is
no
> > > need to quote the last seventeen messages in a thread. Mabye it's
just
> > > me.
> > >
> > > |
> > > | -<erki>-
> > > |
> > >
> >
>
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