I have an idea .. post this question on the CF-Jobs list and maybe one of
the PR people that hang out in there will be nice enough to give you some
insight.
Todd Ashworth --
Certified ColdFusion Developer
Network Administrator
Saber Corporation
314 Oakland Ave.
Rock Hill, SC 29730
(803) 327-0137 [111]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Patton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
| >in the end, experience tells all.
|
| That is really all i was trying to get at but my question still remains
why
| do companies ignore those of us that don't have degree's when we can and
| will do a better job than the guy with the degree. When i have 3 yrs
| experience and the guy in front of me has 1 1/2 years and a degree they
will
| look through me. Just doesn't make sense. especially if experience tells
it
| all.
|
|
| Jay Patton
| Web Design / Application Design
| Web Pro USA
| p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
| p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
| e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| url. www.webpro-usa.com
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Marc Funaro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:31 PM
| Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
|
|
| > Hi Jay,
| >
| > Guess I'll be the first to reply, but I am sure there'll be other
replies
| > along the same lines as my own.
| >
| > I used to feel the way you do, and perhaps as early as 10 years ago I'd
| have
| > said the same thing. However, my experience has "mellowed" me some, and
| > given me some insight.
| >
| > I spent over $14K on my college education. (I know, for many that's
| really
| > LOW, but you have to admit, it's still a chunk of change. A new car,
| > perhaps...)
| >
| > My degree is in Music.
| >
| > These days, I do very little with music, except listen to Pat Metheny
| while
| > writing code.
| >
| > Still, I would not trade that time (and money!) spent on school for
| > anything. Not even a beer.
| >
| > I've learned that it's not just WHAT you learn when you have a college
| > education, but it's also the fact that you are "trainable", flexible,
and
| to
| > a large degree, can express a commitment to something from beginning to
| end.
| > These qualities are just as important to a (good) employer as how fast
you
| > can write good code.
| >
| > I've met quite a few developers, who really do seem to know what they
are
| > doing. They can't spell worth a damn, can't "talk" to clients the way
| > clients expect to be treated, and are more often than not "inflexible"
to
| > change. They know what they know. I might even still be in those
| > categories... to some extent. But you have to remember, college offers
| MORE
| > than just "here's how to do this". It also offers "here's how to
continue
| > learning" and "here's something hard to accomplish, at times feels
| > irrelevant, and takes a lot of time and concentration to do. Do it, and
| > we'll tell the world you can do it."
| >
| > Math is my downfall too. But even now, I still consider going back to
| > college, to take CIS courses and perhaps a second degree (only this
time,
| it
| > would probably only be a two-year deal!!)
| >
| > In fact, not too long ago there was a series of articles in the major
| papers
| > about how us "liberal arts" folks were first in line for hire in the
| > technology arena, because we were so "diverse". Go figure.
| >
| > If someone has a degree and still can't "cut it", they're usually found
| out
| > in the end. And yes, I do believe that having a degree allows you to
| stand
| > ahead of the "self taught" guy in the employment line. But not by
much...
| > in the end, experience tells all.
| >
| > Hope this helps provide a different point of view.
| >
| > .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
| > Marc Funaro, President
| > Advantex Technical Consulting Services
| > 5547 State Highway 12
| > Norwich, NY 13815
| > Phone: 607-336-6895
| > Fax: 801-383-4864
| > Internet: http://www.advantex.net
| > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| >
| >
| > "You know, I have one simple request... and that is,
| > to have SHARKS with Frickin' LASER BEAMS attached
| > to their HEADS..."
| >
| > --Dr. Evil
| > .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
| >
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Jay Patton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 3:06 PM
| > To: CF-Community
| > Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
| >
| >
| > .....Sorry in advance...
| >
| > Here Goes, (just a few questions)
| >
| > <agree>
| > I totaly agree with you (Kevin) that "I think a CS degree would be
| > inappropriate for most CF development work."
| > </agree>
| >
| > <!!!rant!!!>
| >
| > One thing I've never understood though, is why do "they" (they being
| schools
| > or whoever sets up the requirements to obtain a CS degree) have to put
so
| > much math in with all of it. Yes i can see how it would help, however
math
| > was my VERY WORST of subjects in school. And i seem to get by perfectly
| fine
| > with programming. (Oddly enough i was VERY good in physics, don't ask me
| > how) I did not go to college (mainly because i couldn't afford it) and
yet
| i
| > still got a good job in web development. so why do so many companies
| require
| > such degrees? I find upsetting when you get turned down for another
| > candidate that has a CS degree, but yet you have more experience. I have
| > seen companies turn people away before even speaking with them just
| because
| > they don't have a degree of any sort. Some of the best programmers that
i
| > know never even went to college. One day they just picked up a book and
| > started reading and applying what they learn from that. what honestly,
is
| > the difference from; going to school for 4 years wasting a lot of money,
| or
| > picking up a few books from Barnes and noble or the local university
book
| > store and learning on your own? a piece of paper that says HERE YOU HAVE
| > COMPLETED YOUR CS DEGREE. I have learned more on my own in the last 6
| > months than a friend of mine in Spokane, WA. has from Gonzaga
University.
| > and he is going for his CS Degree. By the time he is done i will have
5 -
| 6
| > years of work experience and he will be stuck looking for one of those
| entry
| > level jobs because he wasted what time he could have used to learn more
| (and
| > probably faster), than sitting in class for 4 years to get that special
| > piece of paper. Sorry i kind of strayed from my initial questions:
| >
| > </!!!rant!!!>
| >
| > Why do the have to put so much math in the course's?
| > and
| > Why do companies turn people away because they have no degree?
| >
| > That's it im done,
| >
| > Jay Patton
| > Web Design / Application Design
| > Web Pro USA
| > p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
| > p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
| > e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| > url. www.webpro-usa.com
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "Carlson, Kevin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:19 PM
| > Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
| >
| >
| > > Actually, I think a CS degree would be inappropriate for most CF
| > development
| > > work. I have a business degree in Computer Information Systems, which
I
| > > believe is more valuable for developing the majority of web-based
| > > applications. Here are some general impressions I recall among
various
| > > curriculums (when I was in college, anyway ...):
| > >
| > > CS: 3 calculus courses, 3 physics courses, compiler design theory
| > >
| > > CIS: C, COBOL, Algebra, Discrete Math, Public Speaking, Systems
| Analysis,
| > > Systems Design, Database design, Organizational behavior
| > >
| > > EE: Fortran
| > >
| > > Of course, there are many more differences, and things have certainly
| > > changed somewhat since I was in college (although Hey! I'm not that
old
| > .....)
| > > but my overall sense is this:
| > >
| > > CS is more geared to the embedded-logic crowd - CS folks often work
with
| > > Electrical Engineers on such projects. No systems analysis or design
| > > classes required. In other words, not end-user oriented. I'm sure
many
| > CS
| > > folks have such skills, but they weren't provided by the required
| > > coursework.
| > >
| > > CIS is geared towards business application developers, who will
probably
| > > never need calculus to do their work. The ability to think in terms
of
| > > large-scale, interconnected applications is emphasized. Also
emphasized
| > is
| > > the ability to work closely with users, usually across multiple
groups,
| > each
| > > with their own agenda (sound familiar?)
| > >
| > > Overall, I think that anyone who actually enjoyed doing algebra story
| > > problems has a good chance at becoming a good programmer/developer.
For
| > > many people, it's just overkill to get a CS degree, IMHO.
| > >
| > > Regards,
| > > Kevin
| > >
| > > > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:53:39 -0700
| > > > From: Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| > > > Subject: For those of you without a CS Degree
| > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > > >
| > > > For those of you who are doing programming-type stuff without a CS
| > > > degree. How did you learn programming logic? (Or did you?) I just
| > can't
| > > >
| > > > imagine doing a good job without knowing what I know. I've seen so
| much
| > > > bad code.
| > > >
| > > > To everyone else, please watch your message quoting. It's getting
| > hard
| > > > to separate the new posts from the old posts in the digest. There
is
| no
| > > > need to quote the last seventeen messages in a thread. Mabye it's
| just
| > > > me.
| > > >
| > > > |
| > > > | -<erki>-
| > > > |
| > > >
| > >
| >
|
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