lol .. PR ... sheesh .. I meant HR ... jeez what a long day .. and it's not
over yet :(
Todd Ashworth
Certified ColdFusion Developer
Network Administrator
Saber Corporation
314 Oakland Ave.
Rock Hill, SC 29730
(803) 327-0137 [111] (p)
(803) 328-2868 (f)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Ashworth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
> I have an idea .. post this question on the CF-Jobs list and maybe one of
> the PR people that hang out in there will be nice enough to give you some
> insight.
>
> Todd Ashworth --
> Certified ColdFusion Developer
> Network Administrator
>
> Saber Corporation
> 314 Oakland Ave.
> Rock Hill, SC 29730
> (803) 327-0137 [111]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jay Patton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
>
>
> | >in the end, experience tells all.
> |
> | That is really all i was trying to get at but my question still remains
> why
> | do companies ignore those of us that don't have degree's when we can and
> | will do a better job than the guy with the degree. When i have 3 yrs
> | experience and the guy in front of me has 1 1/2 years and a degree they
> will
> | look through me. Just doesn't make sense. especially if experience tells
> it
> | all.
> |
> |
> | Jay Patton
> | Web Design / Application Design
> | Web Pro USA
> | p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
> | p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
> | e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> | url. www.webpro-usa.com
> | ----- Original Message -----
> | From: "Marc Funaro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> | To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> | Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:31 PM
> | Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
> |
> |
> | > Hi Jay,
> | >
> | > Guess I'll be the first to reply, but I am sure there'll be other
> replies
> | > along the same lines as my own.
> | >
> | > I used to feel the way you do, and perhaps as early as 10 years ago
I'd
> | have
> | > said the same thing. However, my experience has "mellowed" me some,
and
> | > given me some insight.
> | >
> | > I spent over $14K on my college education. (I know, for many that's
> | really
> | > LOW, but you have to admit, it's still a chunk of change. A new car,
> | > perhaps...)
> | >
> | > My degree is in Music.
> | >
> | > These days, I do very little with music, except listen to Pat Metheny
> | while
> | > writing code.
> | >
> | > Still, I would not trade that time (and money!) spent on school for
> | > anything. Not even a beer.
> | >
> | > I've learned that it's not just WHAT you learn when you have a college
> | > education, but it's also the fact that you are "trainable", flexible,
> and
> | to
> | > a large degree, can express a commitment to something from beginning
to
> | end.
> | > These qualities are just as important to a (good) employer as how fast
> you
> | > can write good code.
> | >
> | > I've met quite a few developers, who really do seem to know what they
> are
> | > doing. They can't spell worth a damn, can't "talk" to clients the way
> | > clients expect to be treated, and are more often than not "inflexible"
> to
> | > change. They know what they know. I might even still be in those
> | > categories... to some extent. But you have to remember, college
offers
> | MORE
> | > than just "here's how to do this". It also offers "here's how to
> continue
> | > learning" and "here's something hard to accomplish, at times feels
> | > irrelevant, and takes a lot of time and concentration to do. Do it,
and
> | > we'll tell the world you can do it."
> | >
> | > Math is my downfall too. But even now, I still consider going back to
> | > college, to take CIS courses and perhaps a second degree (only this
> time,
> | it
> | > would probably only be a two-year deal!!)
> | >
> | > In fact, not too long ago there was a series of articles in the major
> | papers
> | > about how us "liberal arts" folks were first in line for hire in the
> | > technology arena, because we were so "diverse". Go figure.
> | >
> | > If someone has a degree and still can't "cut it", they're usually
found
> | out
> | > in the end. And yes, I do believe that having a degree allows you to
> | stand
> | > ahead of the "self taught" guy in the employment line. But not by
> much...
> | > in the end, experience tells all.
> | >
> | > Hope this helps provide a different point of view.
> | >
> | > .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> | > Marc Funaro, President
> | > Advantex Technical Consulting Services
> | > 5547 State Highway 12
> | > Norwich, NY 13815
> | > Phone: 607-336-6895
> | > Fax: 801-383-4864
> | > Internet: http://www.advantex.net
> | > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> | >
> | >
> | > "You know, I have one simple request... and that is,
> | > to have SHARKS with Frickin' LASER BEAMS attached
> | > to their HEADS..."
> | >
> | > --Dr. Evil
> | > .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> | >
> | > -----Original Message-----
> | > From: Jay Patton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> | > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 3:06 PM
> | > To: CF-Community
> | > Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
> | >
> | >
> | > .....Sorry in advance...
> | >
> | > Here Goes, (just a few questions)
> | >
> | > <agree>
> | > I totaly agree with you (Kevin) that "I think a CS degree would be
> | > inappropriate for most CF development work."
> | > </agree>
> | >
> | > <!!!rant!!!>
> | >
> | > One thing I've never understood though, is why do "they" (they being
> | schools
> | > or whoever sets up the requirements to obtain a CS degree) have to put
> so
> | > much math in with all of it. Yes i can see how it would help, however
> math
> | > was my VERY WORST of subjects in school. And i seem to get by
perfectly
> | fine
> | > with programming. (Oddly enough i was VERY good in physics, don't ask
me
> | > how) I did not go to college (mainly because i couldn't afford it) and
> yet
> | i
> | > still got a good job in web development. so why do so many companies
> | require
> | > such degrees? I find upsetting when you get turned down for another
> | > candidate that has a CS degree, but yet you have more experience. I
have
> | > seen companies turn people away before even speaking with them just
> | because
> | > they don't have a degree of any sort. Some of the best programmers
that
> i
> | > know never even went to college. One day they just picked up a book
and
> | > started reading and applying what they learn from that. what honestly,
> is
> | > the difference from; going to school for 4 years wasting a lot of
money,
> | or
> | > picking up a few books from Barnes and noble or the local university
> book
> | > store and learning on your own? a piece of paper that says HERE YOU
HAVE
> | > COMPLETED YOUR CS DEGREE. I have learned more on my own in the last 6
> | > months than a friend of mine in Spokane, WA. has from Gonzaga
> University.
> | > and he is going for his CS Degree. By the time he is done i will have
> 5 -
> | 6
> | > years of work experience and he will be stuck looking for one of those
> | entry
> | > level jobs because he wasted what time he could have used to learn
more
> | (and
> | > probably faster), than sitting in class for 4 years to get that
special
> | > piece of paper. Sorry i kind of strayed from my initial questions:
> | >
> | > </!!!rant!!!>
> | >
> | > Why do the have to put so much math in the course's?
> | > and
> | > Why do companies turn people away because they have no degree?
> | >
> | > That's it im done,
> | >
> | > Jay Patton
> | > Web Design / Application Design
> | > Web Pro USA
> | > p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
> | > p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
> | > e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> | > url. www.webpro-usa.com
> | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > From: "Carlson, Kevin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> | > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> | > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:19 PM
> | > Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
> | >
> | >
> | > > Actually, I think a CS degree would be inappropriate for most CF
> | > development
> | > > work. I have a business degree in Computer Information Systems,
which
> I
> | > > believe is more valuable for developing the majority of web-based
> | > > applications. Here are some general impressions I recall among
> various
> | > > curriculums (when I was in college, anyway ...):
> | > >
> | > > CS: 3 calculus courses, 3 physics courses, compiler design theory
> | > >
> | > > CIS: C, COBOL, Algebra, Discrete Math, Public Speaking, Systems
> | Analysis,
> | > > Systems Design, Database design, Organizational behavior
> | > >
> | > > EE: Fortran
> | > >
> | > > Of course, there are many more differences, and things have
certainly
> | > > changed somewhat since I was in college (although Hey! I'm not that
> old
> | > .....)
> | > > but my overall sense is this:
> | > >
> | > > CS is more geared to the embedded-logic crowd - CS folks often work
> with
> | > > Electrical Engineers on such projects. No systems analysis or
design
> | > > classes required. In other words, not end-user oriented. I'm sure
> many
> | > CS
> | > > folks have such skills, but they weren't provided by the required
> | > > coursework.
> | > >
> | > > CIS is geared towards business application developers, who will
> probably
> | > > never need calculus to do their work. The ability to think in terms
> of
> | > > large-scale, interconnected applications is emphasized. Also
> emphasized
> | > is
> | > > the ability to work closely with users, usually across multiple
> groups,
> | > each
> | > > with their own agenda (sound familiar?)
> | > >
> | > > Overall, I think that anyone who actually enjoyed doing algebra stor
y
> | > > problems has a good chance at becoming a good programmer/developer.
> For
> | > > many people, it's just overkill to get a CS degree, IMHO.
> | > >
> | > > Regards,
> | > > Kevin
> | > >
> | > > > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:53:39 -0700
> | > > > From: Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> | > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> | > > > Subject: For those of you without a CS Degree
> | > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> | > > >
> | > > > For those of you who are doing programming-type stuff without a
CS
> | > > > degree. How did you learn programming logic? (Or did you?) I
just
> | > can't
> | > > >
> | > > > imagine doing a good job without knowing what I know. I've seen
so
> | much
> | > > > bad code.
> | > > >
> | > > > To everyone else, please watch your message quoting. It's
getting
> | > hard
> | > > > to separate the new posts from the old posts in the digest. There
> is
> | no
> | > > > need to quote the last seventeen messages in a thread. Mabye it's
> | just
> | > > > me.
> | > > >
> | > > > |
> | > > > | -<erki>-
> | > > > |
> | > > >
> | > >
> | >
> |
>
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