Well, I think you've got to consider what is happening during the hiring
process. Often you are an unknown quantity, so you have to sell yourself
rather relying on your actual skills. I think most good salesmen will tell
you that the first thing you have to do is get the customer comfortable with
you. Though the product (your skills) are important, the buyer needs to feel
good about his/her relationship with the salesman. If the salesman is
attractive, the product must be good, right? I think a degree enhances the
"salesman's" ability to impress -- not only because he/she has the degree --
but also because you learn some decent soft skills while in school.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Patton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
> >in the end, experience tells all.
>
> That is really all i was trying to get at but my question still remains
why
> do companies ignore those of us that don't have degree's when we can and
> will do a better job than the guy with the degree. When i have 3 yrs
> experience and the guy in front of me has 1 1/2 years and a degree they
will
> look through me. Just doesn't make sense. especially if experience tells
it
> all.
>
>
> Jay Patton
> Web Design / Application Design
> Web Pro USA
> p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
> p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
> e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> url. www.webpro-usa.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marc Funaro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:31 PM
> Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
>
>
> > Hi Jay,
> >
> > Guess I'll be the first to reply, but I am sure there'll be other
replies
> > along the same lines as my own.
> >
> > I used to feel the way you do, and perhaps as early as 10 years ago I'd
> have
> > said the same thing. However, my experience has "mellowed" me some, and
> > given me some insight.
> >
> > I spent over $14K on my college education. (I know, for many that's
> really
> > LOW, but you have to admit, it's still a chunk of change. A new car,
> > perhaps...)
> >
> > My degree is in Music.
> >
> > These days, I do very little with music, except listen to Pat Metheny
> while
> > writing code.
> >
> > Still, I would not trade that time (and money!) spent on school for
> > anything. Not even a beer.
> >
> > I've learned that it's not just WHAT you learn when you have a college
> > education, but it's also the fact that you are "trainable", flexible,
and
> to
> > a large degree, can express a commitment to something from beginning to
> end.
> > These qualities are just as important to a (good) employer as how fast
you
> > can write good code.
> >
> > I've met quite a few developers, who really do seem to know what they
are
> > doing. They can't spell worth a damn, can't "talk" to clients the way
> > clients expect to be treated, and are more often than not "inflexible"
to
> > change. They know what they know. I might even still be in those
> > categories... to some extent. But you have to remember, college offers
> MORE
> > than just "here's how to do this". It also offers "here's how to
continue
> > learning" and "here's something hard to accomplish, at times feels
> > irrelevant, and takes a lot of time and concentration to do. Do it, and
> > we'll tell the world you can do it."
> >
> > Math is my downfall too. But even now, I still consider going back to
> > college, to take CIS courses and perhaps a second degree (only this
time,
> it
> > would probably only be a two-year deal!!)
> >
> > In fact, not too long ago there was a series of articles in the major
> papers
> > about how us "liberal arts" folks were first in line for hire in the
> > technology arena, because we were so "diverse". Go figure.
> >
> > If someone has a degree and still can't "cut it", they're usually found
> out
> > in the end. And yes, I do believe that having a degree allows you to
> stand
> > ahead of the "self taught" guy in the employment line. But not by
much...
> > in the end, experience tells all.
> >
> > Hope this helps provide a different point of view.
> >
> > .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> > Marc Funaro, President
> > Advantex Technical Consulting Services
> > 5547 State Highway 12
> > Norwich, NY 13815
> > Phone: 607-336-6895
> > Fax: 801-383-4864
> > Internet: http://www.advantex.net
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> > "You know, I have one simple request... and that is,
> > to have SHARKS with Frickin' LASER BEAMS attached
> > to their HEADS..."
> >
> > --Dr. Evil
> > .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jay Patton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 3:06 PM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: For those of you without a CS Degree
> >
> >
> > .....Sorry in advance...
> >
> > Here Goes, (just a few questions)
> >
> > <agree>
> > I totaly agree with you (Kevin) that "I think a CS degree would be
> > inappropriate for most CF development work."
> > </agree>
> >
> > <!!!rant!!!>
> >
> > One thing I've never understood though, is why do "they" (they being
> schools
> > or whoever sets up the requirements to obtain a CS degree) have to put
so
> > much math in with all of it. Yes i can see how it would help, however
math
> > was my VERY WORST of subjects in school. And i seem to get by perfectly
> fine
> > with programming. (Oddly enough i was VERY good in physics, don't ask me
> > how) I did not go to college (mainly because i couldn't afford it) and
yet
> i
> > still got a good job in web development. so why do so many companies
> require
> > such degrees? I find upsetting when you get turned down for another
> > candidate that has a CS degree, but yet you have more experience. I have
> > seen companies turn people away before even speaking with them just
> because
> > they don't have a degree of any sort. Some of the best programmers that
i
> > know never even went to college. One day they just picked up a book and
> > started reading and applying what they learn from that. what honestly,
is
> > the difference from; going to school for 4 years wasting a lot of money,
> or
> > picking up a few books from Barnes and noble or the local university
book
> > store and learning on your own? a piece of paper that says HERE YOU HAVE
> > COMPLETED YOUR CS DEGREE. I have learned more on my own in the last 6
> > months than a friend of mine in Spokane, WA. has from Gonzaga
University.
> > and he is going for his CS Degree. By the time he is done i will have
5 -
> 6
> > years of work experience and he will be stuck looking for one of those
> entry
> > level jobs because he wasted what time he could have used to learn more
> (and
> > probably faster), than sitting in class for 4 years to get that special
> > piece of paper. Sorry i kind of strayed from my initial questions:
> >
> > </!!!rant!!!>
> >
> > Why do the have to put so much math in the course's?
> > and
> > Why do companies turn people away because they have no degree?
> >
> > That's it im done,
> >
> > Jay Patton
> > Web Design / Application Design
> > Web Pro USA
> > p. 406.549.3337 ext. 203
> > p. 1.888.5WEBPRO ext. 203
> > e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > url. www.webpro-usa.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Carlson, Kevin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:19 PM
> > Subject: RE: For those of you without a CS Degree
> >
> >
> > > Actually, I think a CS degree would be inappropriate for most CF
> > development
> > > work. I have a business degree in Computer Information Systems, which
I
> > > believe is more valuable for developing the majority of web-based
> > > applications. Here are some general impressions I recall among
various
> > > curriculums (when I was in college, anyway ...):
> > >
> > > CS: 3 calculus courses, 3 physics courses, compiler design theory
> > >
> > > CIS: C, COBOL, Algebra, Discrete Math, Public Speaking, Systems
> Analysis,
> > > Systems Design, Database design, Organizational behavior
> > >
> > > EE: Fortran
> > >
> > > Of course, there are many more differences, and things have certainly
> > > changed somewhat since I was in college (although Hey! I'm not that
old
> > .....)
> > > but my overall sense is this:
> > >
> > > CS is more geared to the embedded-logic crowd - CS folks often work
with
> > > Electrical Engineers on such projects. No systems analysis or design
> > > classes required. In other words, not end-user oriented. I'm sure
many
> > CS
> > > folks have such skills, but they weren't provided by the required
> > > coursework.
> > >
> > > CIS is geared towards business application developers, who will
probably
> > > never need calculus to do their work. The ability to think in terms
of
> > > large-scale, interconnected applications is emphasized. Also
emphasized
> > is
> > > the ability to work closely with users, usually across multiple
groups,
> > each
> > > with their own agenda (sound familiar?)
> > >
> > > Overall, I think that anyone who actually enjoyed doing algebra story
> > > problems has a good chance at becoming a good programmer/developer.
For
> > > many people, it's just overkill to get a CS degree, IMHO.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Kevin
> > >
> > > > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:53:39 -0700
> > > > From: Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: For those of you without a CS Degree
> > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >
> > > > For those of you who are doing programming-type stuff without a CS
> > > > degree. How did you learn programming logic? (Or did you?) I just
> > can't
> > > >
> > > > imagine doing a good job without knowing what I know. I've seen so
> much
> > > > bad code.
> > > >
> > > > To everyone else, please watch your message quoting. It's getting
> > hard
> > > > to separate the new posts from the old posts in the digest. There
is
> no
> > > > need to quote the last seventeen messages in a thread. Mabye it's
> just
> > > > me.
> > > >
> > > > |
> > > > | -<erki>-
> > > > |
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
