No aguments there :) > -----Original Message----- > From: William H Bowen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 06 August 2003 21:41 > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > yeah, you're right. too many list items... > > still though I think the question is valid. > > will > > Wayne Putterill wrote: > > >Slight correction - Buddhists don't believe in god, or at least they > >don't worship a god. There are gods in Buddhism, but they > are more like > >a state of being which is impermanent - i.e. any sentient > being has the > >capacity to reach that state, but eventually they will be > reincarnated > >as something else. > > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: William H Bowen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Sent: 06 August 2003 21:10 > >>To: CF-Community > >>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > >> > >> > >>Where did I mention not believing in God? Jews believe in > >>God, are they > >>going to Heaven or not? Muslim, Hindu, Buddist believe in God (some > >>several, but that's a whole other thing...) do they get to go > >>to Heaven? > >> > >>Isn't one of your basic belief tenets that one cannot go to heaven > >>without believing in (or being saved by) Christ? > Specifically Christ. > >> > >>My comment pertains (and pertained) to Christians of one sect that > >>believe that *Christians* of another sect will not go to > >>heaven because > >>the latter do not share the formers' "true belief". A sort of "*my* > >>faith in Jesus will get me into heaven, but yours won't" attitude. > >> > >>This, in my own experience is especially true in relation to > >>"Christian" > >>views of Catholics. > >> > >>And, FWIW I don't have a problem with people practising their > >>religion > >>either, more power to ya!; and I appreciate the fact that > you "don't > >>have any problem with people believing what they want to > >>believe" that's > >>great, but there are those out there that *do* believe that > >>it is their > >>business to get into my (and others') business. There are > those that > >>*do* believe that they *must* do everything in their power to > >>"save" me, > >>whether they find out I'm Catholic or not (but many times > especially > >>*because* they did). > >> > >> > >>will > >> > >>Matthew Small wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>What I really get out of this is that non-Christians want > Christians > >>>to: > >>>1) Not look at them as non-Christians > >>>2) Believe they are going to Heaven right along with Christians > >>>3) Ignore the Scripture as it has been taught throughout the > >>> > >>> > >>ages in favor > >> > >> > >>>of a "feel-good, do what makes you happy" interpretation. > >>> > >>>Gosh, if the above is true, then what is religion for? > >>> > >>>"there are some (not all) sects of Christianity that > believe that if > >>>you're not in the same > sect/franchise/denomination/whatever (never > >>>mind whether or not you're a Christian) you're going to > >>> > >>> > >>hell. 'course > >> > >> > >>>we can't fault them for their beliefs I suppose...guess > >>> > >>> > >>they found the > >> > >> > >>>section of the bible they wanted to uphold..." > >>> > >>>So which parts of the Bible do you subscribe to that lets you go to > >>>Heaven without believing in God? > >>> > >>>Most of the world is religious to one extent or the other. Somebody > >>>somewhere has a different religion than mine and therefore I > >>> > >>> > >>will go to > >> > >> > >>>their version of Hell when I die. That's fine with me. I'm > >>> > >>> > >>not going > >> > >> > >>>to make them accept Jesus (although I believe they > should). I'm not > >>>going to tell them that they need to pick a leader who > >>> > >>> > >>doesn't support > >> > >> > >>>their core beliefs when that opportunity arises. I'm just going to > >>>practice my own faith, as you should practice yours or > lack of faith > >>>and let them be. > >>> > >>>Like I said before, there is a distinct anti-Christian feel to this > >>>group, it comes up often, but not from other members of religious > >>>organizations, but from distictly non-religious people. > >>> > >>>I don't have any problem with people believing what they want to > >>>believe. Why do you? I'll practice my religion, you... do > whatever. > >>> > >>>Matt Small > >>> > >>> > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "William H Bowen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:41 PM > >>>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that > if you're > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>outside > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>understand what the > >> > >> > >>>>problem > >>>> > >>>>Oooo, and this brings up a personal favorite of mine...> > ...nice... > >>>> > >>>>or how about those Christians that believe Catholics are going to > >>>>hell, too? Aren't Catholics Christians as well? > >>>> > >>>>will > >>>> > >>>>Matthew Small wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>It's obvious you don't get it at all - wait a minute, > maybe you do. > >>>>> > >>>>>Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that > if you're > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>outside > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't > understand what the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>problem > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>is with this. Either you subscribe to the religion, or > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>you don't. > >> > >> > >>>>>Those that do subscribe are forgiven and go to Heaven. > Those that > >>>>>don't > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>subscribe > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>to the religion are not forgiven and go to Hell. There is no two > >>>>>ways > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>about > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>it, there's no "forgiveness because he's a good person at > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>heart", no > >> > >> > >>>>>in-betweens, no exceptions. Obviously, there are people > within the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>religion > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>who commit bad sins, heinous crimes, hold grudges, hate others. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>Everybody > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>points the finger at others for their crimes and sins and ask for > >>>>>retribution. Fortunately, Christians know to also look at > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>themselves > >> > >> > >>>>>and ask for the forgiveness for their sins (including > judgement of > >>>>>others) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>that > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>Jesus Christ gave to us when He died on the cross, and we > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>do try to > >> > >> > >>>>>live > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>the > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>right life. > >>>>> > >>>>>It appears to me that you're saying that the greatest > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>fault with the > >> > >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>church > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>is the judgement of fellow man. It is a failing, but don't > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>forget the > >> > >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>fact > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>that the ultimate judgement comes from God, and either > you're with > >>>>>Him or against Him. > >>>>> > >>>>>Matthew Small > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:56 PM > >>>>>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>I have been to many, many churches. They are all about the same. > >>>>>>Most > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>very > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>nice. But the gossip, backstabbing and petty hate has been an > >>>>>integral > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>part > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>of all the ones I've spent any time in to date. And it is > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>always the > >> > >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>church > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>elders and "VIP"s that are the worst offenders. Note, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>however, it is > >> > >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>seldom > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>the priests (at least not in my hearing). > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>I don't think that the people should be perfect. But if > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>they point > >> > >> > >>>>>>their > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>finger at me (or others) and say - You are not following the LAW, > >>>>>then > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>they > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>should be willing to look at themselves at the same time, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>and see how > >> > >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>their > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>actions fall within their own rules. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>Most of these churches I have been to have a very active "other" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>barrier. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>They are very tolerant of those inside the barrier, but do > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>not allow > >> > >> > >>>>>the same kind of human foibles to those outside the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>barrier. The same > >> > >> > >>>>>action > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>from one within their group is treated as a forgivable > sin, but if > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>done > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>by > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>someone outside, "they're going to hell". Fortunately the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>barrier and > >> > >> > >>>>>reasons for it move from group to group, so most people > can find a > >>>>>group just like them (as you say "personality is more > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>like"). But the > >> > >> > >>>>>very existence of that kind of thinking is at odds with the basic > >>>>>teachings of all these churches, IMHO. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>You say this issue about the Bishop is not about hate. It > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>is about > >> > >> > >>>>>>hate. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>Not everyone. Those who just disagree, even enthusiastically, are > >>>>>great. Differences of opinion are great. That's why > there is more > >>>>>than one > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>church. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>People who think this guy is the worst thing to come along > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>since the > >> > >> > >>>>>Inquisition have every right to their opinion. Heck, even those > >>>>>people > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>who > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>are calling in the death threats have the right to their opinion. > >>>>>Just > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>not > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>to act on it. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>The coverage I have seen (TV, Radio, Internet) have shown > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>that many > >> > >> > >>>>>>of > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>those in the "against" camp are of the witch-burning > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>variety. Many of > >> > >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>them > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>hold high positions in the Anglican Church. That is what I > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>find sad > >> > >> > >>>>>and a little bit funny. They don't see that their very > actions are > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>diametrically > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>opposite of what they say they are fighting for. And > they guy they > >>>>>are fighting against seems to be better at what they say > they are > >>>>>fighting > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>for > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>than they are. Funny. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>I do think most Christians (since they fall in the "most people" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>category) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>are selfish, self absorbed, and quite capable of not only > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>hating, but > >> > >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>actual > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>being proud of hating. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>I also never said their (our) religion was invalid. I think its > >>>>>>great. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>And > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>I hope that someday they will _follow_ it a little more. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>Jerry Johnson > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/06/03 12:32PM >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>I would say that your church is in the minority, and that > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>you don't > >> > >> > >>>>>>go > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>to > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>church enough, and that you need to find a church where you feel > >>>>>>that > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>your > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>personality is more like those of the congregation. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>I love my church, I have a good time going, and I don't > find most > >>>>>>people > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>to > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>be hypocrital, just human. It sounds as though you > expect all of > >>>>>>your church goers to be practically perfect - that just > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>isn't so. > >> > >> > >>>>>>If you subscribe to tolerance, don't be bothered by what > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>others do, > >> > >> > >>>>>>just live > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>the > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>right life yourself. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Take a minute and listen to what the bible-thumbers have > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>to say in > >> > >> > >>>>>>it's entirety, and you'll realize that it's not about > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>hate at all, > >> > >> > >>>>>>it's about different opinions than yours regarding some > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>issues. Not > >> > >> > >>>>>>to say that > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>there > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>is not hate, but it's mostly not. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>It sounds like your opinion of your church leads to you > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>think that > >> > >> > >>>>>>most Christians are people filled with hate and therefore their > >>>>>>religion is invalid. How's that for intolerance? You're > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>blaming an > >> > >> > >>>>>>entire religion > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>for > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>the problems that you have your your church. I'm sure that you > >>>>>>don't > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>know > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>the people that I go to church with. They are the > nicest group of > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>people > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>that I've ever had the chance to be affliated with. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Matthew Small > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:01 PM > >>>>>>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>First off, I am a Christian. Methodist to be precise. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>But I don't often go to Church. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>I find that the Church, and most of those who practice the > >>>>>>>Christian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>religions, somewhat hypocritical. (And I do know this is > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>an insult.) > >> > >> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>They preach love and tolerance, but seldom practice > it. And don't > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>really > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>try too hard. Nor feel bad about it when they don't. They > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>tend to be > >> > >> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>really > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>good haters. And if you don't toe the line exactly as > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>they define it > >> > >> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>(and > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>there are hundreds of lines, all drawn in different > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>places) you are > >> > >> > >>>>>>a > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>bad, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>bad person, and deserve all you get. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>As for this guy, I truly don't care one way or another. If his > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>congregation is for him, that's what matters to me. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>Intellectually. > >> > >> > >>>>>>It doesn't really matter to me at all in the overall > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>sense. But I do > >> > >> > >>>>>>get > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5
Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
