yeah, you're right. too many list items... still though I think the question is valid.
will Wayne Putterill wrote: >Slight correction - Buddhists don't believe in god, or at least they >don't worship a god. There are gods in Buddhism, but they are more like >a state of being which is impermanent - i.e. any sentient being has the >capacity to reach that state, but eventually they will be reincarnated >as something else. > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: William H Bowen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Sent: 06 August 2003 21:10 >>To: CF-Community >>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... >> >> >>Where did I mention not believing in God? Jews believe in >>God, are they >>going to Heaven or not? Muslim, Hindu, Buddist believe in God (some >>several, but that's a whole other thing...) do they get to go >>to Heaven? >> >>Isn't one of your basic belief tenets that one cannot go to heaven >>without believing in (or being saved by) Christ? Specifically Christ. >> >>My comment pertains (and pertained) to Christians of one sect that >>believe that *Christians* of another sect will not go to >>heaven because >>the latter do not share the formers' "true belief". A sort of "*my* >>faith in Jesus will get me into heaven, but yours won't" attitude. >> >>This, in my own experience is especially true in relation to >>"Christian" >>views of Catholics. >> >>And, FWIW I don't have a problem with people practising their >>religion >>either, more power to ya!; and I appreciate the fact that you "don't >>have any problem with people believing what they want to >>believe" that's >>great, but there are those out there that *do* believe that >>it is their >>business to get into my (and others') business. There are those that >>*do* believe that they *must* do everything in their power to >>"save" me, >>whether they find out I'm Catholic or not (but many times especially >>*because* they did). >> >> >>will >> >>Matthew Small wrote: >> >> >> >>>What I really get out of this is that non-Christians want Christians >>>to: >>>1) Not look at them as non-Christians >>>2) Believe they are going to Heaven right along with Christians >>>3) Ignore the Scripture as it has been taught throughout the >>> >>> >>ages in favor >> >> >>>of a "feel-good, do what makes you happy" interpretation. >>> >>>Gosh, if the above is true, then what is religion for? >>> >>>"there are some (not all) sects of Christianity that believe that if >>>you're not in the same sect/franchise/denomination/whatever (never >>>mind whether or not you're a Christian) you're going to >>> >>> >>hell. 'course >> >> >>>we can't fault them for their beliefs I suppose...guess >>> >>> >>they found the >> >> >>>section of the bible they wanted to uphold..." >>> >>>So which parts of the Bible do you subscribe to that lets you go to >>>Heaven without believing in God? >>> >>>Most of the world is religious to one extent or the other. Somebody >>>somewhere has a different religion than mine and therefore I >>> >>> >>will go to >> >> >>>their version of Hell when I die. That's fine with me. I'm >>> >>> >>not going >> >> >>>to make them accept Jesus (although I believe they should). I'm not >>>going to tell them that they need to pick a leader who >>> >>> >>doesn't support >> >> >>>their core beliefs when that opportunity arises. I'm just going to >>>practice my own faith, as you should practice yours or lack of faith >>>and let them be. >>> >>>Like I said before, there is a distinct anti-Christian feel to this >>>group, it comes up often, but not from other members of religious >>>organizations, but from distictly non-religious people. >>> >>>I don't have any problem with people believing what they want to >>>believe. Why do you? I'll practice my religion, you... do whatever. >>> >>>Matt Small >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "William H Bowen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:41 PM >>>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that if you're >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>outside >>>> >>>> >>>>>of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't >>>>> >>>>> >>understand what the >> >> >>>>problem >>>> >>>>Oooo, and this brings up a personal favorite of mine...> ...nice... >>>> >>>>or how about those Christians that believe Catholics are going to >>>>hell, too? Aren't Catholics Christians as well? >>>> >>>>will >>>> >>>>Matthew Small wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>It's obvious you don't get it at all - wait a minute, maybe you do. >>>>> >>>>>Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that if you're >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>outside >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't understand what the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>problem >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>is with this. Either you subscribe to the religion, or >>>>> >>>>> >>you don't. >> >> >>>>>Those that do subscribe are forgiven and go to Heaven. Those that >>>>>don't >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>subscribe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>to the religion are not forgiven and go to Hell. There is no two >>>>>ways >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>about >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>it, there's no "forgiveness because he's a good person at >>>>> >>>>> >>heart", no >> >> >>>>>in-betweens, no exceptions. Obviously, there are people within the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>religion >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>who commit bad sins, heinous crimes, hold grudges, hate others. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>Everybody >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>points the finger at others for their crimes and sins and ask for >>>>>retribution. Fortunately, Christians know to also look at >>>>> >>>>> >>themselves >> >> >>>>>and ask for the forgiveness for their sins (including judgement of >>>>>others) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>that >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>Jesus Christ gave to us when He died on the cross, and we >>>>> >>>>> >>do try to >> >> >>>>>live >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>right life. >>>>> >>>>>It appears to me that you're saying that the greatest >>>>> >>>>> >>fault with the >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>church >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>is the judgement of fellow man. It is a failing, but don't >>>>> >>>>> >>forget the >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>fact >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>that the ultimate judgement comes from God, and either you're with >>>>>Him or against Him. >>>>> >>>>>Matthew Small >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:56 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I have been to many, many churches. They are all about the same. >>>>>>Most >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>very >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>nice. But the gossip, backstabbing and petty hate has been an >>>>>integral >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>part >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>of all the ones I've spent any time in to date. And it is >>>>> >>>>> >>always the >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>church >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>elders and "VIP"s that are the worst offenders. Note, >>>>> >>>>> >>however, it is >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>seldom >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>the priests (at least not in my hearing). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I don't think that the people should be perfect. But if >>>>>> >>>>>> >>they point >> >> >>>>>>their >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>finger at me (or others) and say - You are not following the LAW, >>>>>then >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>they >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>should be willing to look at themselves at the same time, >>>>> >>>>> >>and see how >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>their >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>actions fall within their own rules. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Most of these churches I have been to have a very active "other" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>barrier. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>They are very tolerant of those inside the barrier, but do >>>>> >>>>> >>not allow >> >> >>>>>the same kind of human foibles to those outside the >>>>> >>>>> >>barrier. The same >> >> >>>>>action >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>from one within their group is treated as a forgivable sin, but if >>>> >>>> >>>>>done >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>by >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>someone outside, "they're going to hell". Fortunately the >>>>> >>>>> >>barrier and >> >> >>>>>reasons for it move from group to group, so most people can find a >>>>>group just like them (as you say "personality is more >>>>> >>>>> >>like"). But the >> >> >>>>>very existence of that kind of thinking is at odds with the basic >>>>>teachings of all these churches, IMHO. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>You say this issue about the Bishop is not about hate. It >>>>>> >>>>>> >>is about >> >> >>>>>>hate. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Not everyone. Those who just disagree, even enthusiastically, are >>>>>great. Differences of opinion are great. That's why there is more >>>>>than one >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>church. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>People who think this guy is the worst thing to come along >>>>> >>>>> >>since the >> >> >>>>>Inquisition have every right to their opinion. Heck, even those >>>>>people >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>who >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>are calling in the death threats have the right to their opinion. >>>>>Just >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>not >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>to act on it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>The coverage I have seen (TV, Radio, Internet) have shown >>>>>> >>>>>> >>that many >> >> >>>>>>of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>those in the "against" camp are of the witch-burning >>>>> >>>>> >>variety. Many of >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>them >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>hold high positions in the Anglican Church. That is what I >>>>> >>>>> >>find sad >> >> >>>>>and a little bit funny. They don't see that their very actions are >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>diametrically >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>opposite of what they say they are fighting for. And they guy they >>>>>are fighting against seems to be better at what they say they are >>>>>fighting >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>for >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>than they are. Funny. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I do think most Christians (since they fall in the "most people" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>category) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>are selfish, self absorbed, and quite capable of not only >>>>> >>>>> >>hating, but >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>actual >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>being proud of hating. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I also never said their (our) religion was invalid. I think its >>>>>>great. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>And >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>I hope that someday they will _follow_ it a little more. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Jerry Johnson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/06/03 12:32PM >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>I would say that your church is in the minority, and that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>you don't >> >> >>>>>>go >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>to >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>church enough, and that you need to find a church where you feel >>>>>>that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>your >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>personality is more like those of the congregation. >>>>>> >>>>>>I love my church, I have a good time going, and I don't find most >>>>>>people >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>be hypocrital, just human. It sounds as though you expect all of >>>>>>your church goers to be practically perfect - that just >>>>>> >>>>>> >>isn't so. >> >> >>>>>>If you subscribe to tolerance, don't be bothered by what >>>>>> >>>>>> >>others do, >> >> >>>>>>just live >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>right life yourself. >>>>>> >>>>>>Take a minute and listen to what the bible-thumbers have >>>>>> >>>>>> >>to say in >> >> >>>>>>it's entirety, and you'll realize that it's not about >>>>>> >>>>>> >>hate at all, >> >> >>>>>>it's about different opinions than yours regarding some >>>>>> >>>>>> >>issues. Not >> >> >>>>>>to say that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>there >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>is not hate, but it's mostly not. >>>>>> >>>>>>It sounds like your opinion of your church leads to you >>>>>> >>>>>> >>think that >> >> >>>>>>most Christians are people filled with hate and therefore their >>>>>>religion is invalid. How's that for intolerance? You're >>>>>> >>>>>> >>blaming an >> >> >>>>>>entire religion >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>for >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>the problems that you have your your church. I'm sure that you >>>>>>don't >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>know >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>the people that I go to church with. They are the nicest group of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>people >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>that I've ever had the chance to be affliated with. >>>>>> >>>>>>Matthew Small >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:01 PM >>>>>>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>First off, I am a Christian. Methodist to be precise. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>But I don't often go to Church. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I find that the Church, and most of those who practice the >>>>>>>Christian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>religions, somewhat hypocritical. (And I do know this is >>>>>> >>>>>> >>an insult.) >> >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>They preach love and tolerance, but seldom practice it. And don't >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>really >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>try too hard. Nor feel bad about it when they don't. They >>>>>> >>>>>> >>tend to be >> >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>really >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>good haters. And if you don't toe the line exactly as >>>>>> >>>>>> >>they define it >> >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>(and >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>there are hundreds of lines, all drawn in different >>>>>> >>>>>> >>places) you are >> >> >>>>>>a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>bad, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>bad person, and deserve all you get. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>As for this guy, I truly don't care one way or another. If his >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>congregation is for him, that's what matters to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>Intellectually. >> >> >>>>>>It doesn't really matter to me at all in the overall >>>>>> >>>>>> >>sense. But I do >> >> >>>>>>get >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 Your ad could be here. 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