yeah, you are being punished but not *too* badly :) I sorta suspect that refusing to convert is not considered a venal sin though :) that would be how they kept the troops in line back in the days of the Inquisition :)
William H Bowen writes: > ** raises hand emphatically at back of class ** > oh! oh! And let us not forget Purgatory. Where one goes to atone for > venial sins(no mortal sins -- for that it's a free ride to the 9th > circle of hell) for a length of time that cannot be measured by man, > before one can go to heaven. > > In third grade, when I asked our teacher Ms. Faddis whether Purgatory > was like Hell, she laughed and said that it was but the flames were only > 'this high' and held her hand out at about the head height of our > class...she had a good sense of humor :-). I liked her. I wish more of > my teachers at St. Joseph's Catholic Gradeschool had been like her, able > to teach kids to be able to find a humorous take on some of the more > implausible aspects of faith instead of trying to drill us with > "mysteries" and "unknowable truths" and what-have-you. > > will > > > Dana Tierney wrote: > > >Catholics believe that anyone who has never heard of Jesus goes to Limbo. > >Which is supposed to be an okay, reasonably pleasant place, except that you > >dont get to rejoice in the presence of the Lord, etc. Same thing for young > >children who have never received the sacrament of communion. > > > >I myself view this as a sort of rationalization.... I think God worries a > >lot less about these sorts of labels than the people who made them up do :) > > > >Dana > > > >Wayne Putterill writes: > > > > > > > >>What about people who have been raised in a different religion? Or the > >>people in this world who have never even heard of Jesus - do they go to > >>hell? > >> > >>If the answer is yes, then that�s the fundamental flaw in Christianity, > >>I could never believe in a God who acts in such an unfair manner. > >> > >> > >> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: William H Bowen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>Sent: 06 August 2003 19:42 > >>>To: CF-Community > >>>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > >>> > >>> > >>> > Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that if you're > >>>outside > >>> > of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't understand what the > >>>problem > >>> > >>>Oooo, and this brings up a personal favorite of mine...there are some > >>>(not all) sects of Christianity that believe that if you're > >>>not in the > >>>same sect/franchise/denomination/whatever (never mind whether or not > >>>you're a Christian) you're going to hell. 'course we can't fault them > >>>for their beliefs I suppose...guess they found the section of > >>>the bible > >>>they wanted to uphold... > >>> > >>>...nice... > >>> > >>>or how about those Christians that believe Catholics are > >>>going to hell, > >>>too? Aren't Catholics Christians as well? > >>> > >>>will > >>> > >>>Matthew Small wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>It's obvious you don't get it at all - wait a minute, maybe you do. > >>>> > >>>>Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that if you're > >>>>outside of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't > >>>> > >>>> > >>>understand what > >>> > >>> > >>>>the problem is with this. Either you subscribe to the > >>>> > >>>> > >>>religion, or you > >>> > >>> > >>>>don't. Those that do subscribe are forgiven and go to > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Heaven. Those > >>> > >>> > >>>>that don't subscribe to the religion are not forgiven and go > >>>> > >>>> > >>>to Hell. > >>> > >>> > >>>>There is no two ways about it, there's no "forgiveness > >>>> > >>>> > >>>because he's a > >>> > >>> > >>>>good person at heart", no in-betweens, no exceptions. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Obviously, there > >>> > >>> > >>>>are people within the religion who commit bad sins, heinous crimes, > >>>>hold grudges, hate others. Everybody points the finger at > >>>> > >>>> > >>>others for > >>> > >>> > >>>>their crimes and sins and ask for retribution. Fortunately, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Christians > >>> > >>> > >>>>know to also look at themselves and ask for the forgiveness > >>>> > >>>> > >>>for their > >>> > >>> > >>>>sins (including judgement of others) that Jesus Christ gave > >>>> > >>>> > >>>to us when > >>> > >>> > >>>>He died on the cross, and we do try to live the right life. > >>>> > >>>>It appears to me that you're saying that the greatest fault with the > >>>>church is the judgement of fellow man. It is a failing, but don't > >>>>forget the fact that the ultimate judgement comes from God, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>and either > >>> > >>> > >>>>you're with Him or against Him. > >>>> > >>>>Matthew Small > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>>From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:56 PM > >>>>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>I have been to many, many churches. They are all about the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>same. Most > >>> > >>> > >>>>>very > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>nice. But the gossip, backstabbing and petty hate has been > >>>> > >>>> > >>>an integral > >>> > >>> > >>>>part of all the ones I've spent any time in to date. And it > >>>> > >>>> > >>>is always > >>> > >>> > >>>>the church elders and "VIP"s that are the worst offenders. Note, > >>>>however, it is seldom the priests (at least not in my hearing). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>I don't think that the people should be perfect. But if they point > >>>>>their > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>finger at me (or others) and say - You are not following the > >>>> > >>>> > >>>LAW, then > >>> > >>> > >>>>they should be willing to look at themselves at the same > >>>> > >>>> > >>>time, and see > >>> > >>> > >>>>how their actions fall within their own rules. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Most of these churches I have been to have a very active "other" > >>>>>barrier. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>They are very tolerant of those inside the barrier, but do not allow > >>>>the same kind of human foibles to those outside the barrier. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>The same > >>> > >>> > >>>>action from one within their group is treated as a > >>>> > >>>> > >>>forgivable sin, but > >>> > >>> > >>>>if done by someone outside, "they're going to hell". Fortunately the > >>>>barrier and reasons for it move from group to group, so most > >>>> > >>>> > >>>people can > >>> > >>> > >>>>find a group just like them (as you say "personality is more like"). > >>>>But the very existence of that kind of thinking is at odds with the > >>>>basic teachings of all these churches, IMHO. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>You say this issue about the Bishop is not about hate. It is about > >>>>>hate. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>Not everyone. Those who just disagree, even enthusiastically, are > >>>>great. Differences of opinion are great. That's why there is > >>>> > >>>> > >>>more than > >>> > >>> > >>>>one church. People who think this guy is the worst thing to > >>>> > >>>> > >>>come along > >>> > >>> > >>>>since the Inquisition have every right to their opinion. Heck, even > >>>>those people who are calling in the death threats have the right to > >>>>their opinion. Just not to act on it. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>The coverage I have seen (TV, Radio, Internet) have shown > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>that many of > >>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>those in the "against" camp are of the witch-burning > >>>> > >>>> > >>>variety. Many of > >>> > >>> > >>>>them hold high positions in the Anglican Church. That is what I find > >>>>sad and a little bit funny. They don't see that their very > >>>> > >>>> > >>>actions are > >>> > >>> > >>>>diametrically opposite of what they say they are fighting > >>>> > >>>> > >>>for. And they > >>> > >>> > >>>>guy they are fighting against seems to be better at what > >>>> > >>>> > >>>they say they > >>> > >>> > >>>>are fighting for than they are. Funny. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>I do think most Christians (since they fall in the "most people" > >>>>>category) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>are selfish, self absorbed, and quite capable of not only > >>>> > >>>> > >>>hating, but > >>> > >>> > >>>>actual being proud of hating. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>I also never said their (our) religion was invalid. I think > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>its great. > >>> > >>> > >>>>>And > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>I hope that someday they will _follow_ it a little more. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Jerry Johnson > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/06/03 12:32PM >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>I would say that your church is in the minority, and that > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>you don't go > >>> > >>> > >>>>>to church enough, and that you need to find a church where you feel > >>>>>that your personality is more like those of the congregation. > >>>>> > >>>>>I love my church, I have a good time going, and I don't find most > >>>>>people > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>to > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>be hypocrital, just human. It sounds as though you expect > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>all of your > >>> > >>> > >>>>>church goers to be practically perfect - that just isn't > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>so. If you > >>> > >>> > >>>>>subscribe to tolerance, don't be bothered by what others > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>do, just live > >>> > >>> > >>>>>the right life yourself. > >>>>> > >>>>>Take a minute and listen to what the bible-thumbers have to say in > >>>>>it's entirety, and you'll realize that it's not about hate at all, > >>>>>it's about different opinions than yours regarding some > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>issues. Not > >>> > >>> > >>>>>to say that > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>there > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>is not hate, but it's mostly not. > >>>>> > >>>>>It sounds like your opinion of your church leads to you think that > >>>>>most Christians are people filled with hate and therefore their > >>>>>religion is invalid. How's that for intolerance? You're > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>blaming an > >>> > >>> > >>>>>entire religion > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>for > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>the problems that you have your your church. I'm sure that > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>you don't > >>> > >>> > >>>>>know the people that I go to church with. They are the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>nicest group > >>> > >>> > >>>>>of people that I've ever had the chance to be affliated with. > >>>>> > >>>>>Matthew Small > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:01 PM > >>>>>Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>First off, I am a Christian. Methodist to be precise. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>But I don't often go to Church. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>I find that the Church, and most of those who practice the > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>Christian > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>religions, somewhat hypocritical. (And I do know this is an insult.) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>They preach love and tolerance, but seldom practice it. And don't > >>>>>>really > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>try too hard. Nor feel bad about it when they don't. They tend to be > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>really > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>good haters. And if you don't toe the line exactly as they > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>define it > >>> > >>> > >>>>>(and there are hundreds of lines, all drawn in different > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>places) you > >>> > >>> > >>>>>are a bad, bad person, and deserve all you get. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>As for this guy, I truly don't care one way or another. If his > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>congregation is for him, that's what matters to me. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>Intellectually. It > >>> > >>> > >>>>>doesn't really matter to me at all in the overall sense. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>But I do get > >>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. http://www.cfhosting.com Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
