Thanks for your answer, and for Jeanne's response to it. So much to learn, so little time to learn it all. Myra Savant
>From: Janet Dalton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] influential dogs >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:27:33 -0500 > >Myra > >By going to the well too often--I mean the stock has been too heavily >line-bred >or in-bred. Having a particular dog 3 or more times close up in a pedigree >is >too much. I have seen loss of bone in Cavaliers in the same situation. > >Bratt was a Smooth Fox Terrier. I would also like to more clearly state >that I >feel we need more exaggerated dogs used for breeding in Cavaliers--plain to >plain begets plain. Janet Dalton > >Myra Savant wrote: > > > Janet, thanks for your reply on this issue. I found one of your >statements > > very interesting and I need for you to educate me a little bit about it. > (I > > don't want to sound dumb, but if I don't know something, I ask >questions) > > What exactly does it mean where you say..."If you went to the well too > > often, you lost bone". I am asking because I thought my last litter was >a > > little bit too fine boned, but had overall good structure. I thought >maybe > > it was because there were nine pups, but thinking from a genetic point >of > > view, of course I know that isn't the case. If you don't mind taking a > > minute, I would appreciate some information about good bone on these >dogs. > > Myra Savant > > > > >From: Janet Dalton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] influential dogs > > >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:20:38 -0500 > > > > > >I would like to respond regarding my husbands dog--Ch. Ttarb The > > >Bratt--Bratt is the Sire of 137 AKC Champions--he had the most >exquisite > > >head and expression(sorely lacking in the breed at the time) a classic >body > > >and outline-good rear--there was enough of him and he could have had a > > >better shoulder--his influence on the breed is seen in the ring today. > > >Where there problems--of course -if you went to the well too often you >lost > > >bone--there have been no major health issues from his line > > >to date. Bratt was an exaggerated dog however I believe you must have >that > > >in any breed to maintain type( I see that in Cavaliers today). > > > > > >I would also like to mention the Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier Club of > > >America. In the early 80s we instituted a proctocol for our Breeders > > >List--you must have both OFA clearances and Eye clearances(prior to >CERF) > > >to be eligibleto be on the list---HD has been reduced-but not >eliminated > > >and eyes are in very good shape in the breed. That is not to say that > > >there are no other problems in the breed that are now being addressed. > > > > > >Dr. Padgett states in his book that if we did not breed carriers we >would > > >never breed another litter---the trick is to prioritize by how fatal >to > > >the dog the defect may be and linebreed to reduce the incidence. > > > > > >I would not choose-in any breed--to have ugly untypey dogs-I choose > > >beautiful dogs bred from non-affected stock-and discard problems as I >go. > > > > > >Until both Cavalier clubs work together--and all lines are available to >all > > >breeders the goals we seek are not easily attainable. > > > > > >Janet Dalton > > > > > > > > > > > >Cavatibs wrote: > > > > > > > I believe there was a Cocker called My Own Brucie that had a major > > >impact on the breed as he won Westminster, was a beautiful specimen and > > >bitches Coast to Coast were bred to him -- unfortunately, he was also > > >highly aggressive and even today you see his influence as there are >major > > >aggression problems in Cockers. I do not know either of the three dogs >you > > >mention (they were way before my time in dogs here in the USA) but with >the > > >hip problems in German Shepherds and on hearing about > > > > the policy of the Golden Club Magazine editors from Terrie, I am > > >surprised to see that from 1970 to date neither dog is listed on the >OFA > > >website. One wonders what other major impact these dogs made on their > > >respective breeds. Without health in these highly (presumably) bred >dogs, > > >you have nothing. > > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > Peggy Mickelson wrote: > > > > > > > > > Gee, this catching up is making me post a lot.... > > > > > > > > > > When we speak of influential dogs, it is well to keep in mind that > > >some dogs who could have and should have been influential did not >become so > > >because they belonged to people who may have been disliked, or to >people > > >who did not accept all comers for breeding, and therefore did not get >used > > >much. This happens more here in the US (and maybe in Canada) than in >other > > >countries, where it seems breeders have a better sense of what is > > >important. I've known bitches to be sent to dogs when > > > > > their owners just about hated one another...but not in this >country. > > >Here, often it is who the owner is that determines whether a dog is >used > > >often enough to have an effect on the breed...and I'm not just speaking >of > > >Cavaliers here. Also, here in the US, there are always the people who >rush > > >to breed to a dog imported from a famous kennel overseas, sometimes >without > > >even seeing the dog or his pedigree. > > > > > It is easy for a dog to have an influence on a breed when he >is > > >used 30 or 40 times a year, or even just used a dozen times by the same > > >owner who makes sure that the majority of the get are shown to their > > >titles. This ensures that a dog will appear in dozens of pedigrees as >time > > >goes on. One can only hope that the dogs so used will be a good >influence, > > >not just an influence. > > > > > Over the years I've been involved in this sport, three dogs >come > > >to mind as having had a MAJOR impact on their breeds...changing the >look of > > >the breed entirely. They were the German Shepherd, CH Lance of >Fran-Jo, > > >the Golden, CH Cummings Gold-Rush Charlie, and the Smooth Fox Terrier, >CH > > >Ttarb the Brat. Brat was an import from Tasmania (we bow again to our > > >friends down under)...the other dogs were American Bred. I don't >think we > > >will see anything like those dogs in > > > > > Cavaliers...those three STAMPED their offspring unmistakably and > > >literally changed their breeds. That's what I call having an > > >influence........ > > > > > Peggy > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > > > "Magic Commands": > > > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > > > Search the Archives... > > >http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original > > >author. > > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > > "Magic Commands": > > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > > > Search the Archives... >http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original >author. > > > > > >========================================================= > > >"Magic Commands": > > >to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > >to start it up gain click here: > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > >Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > >All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original >author. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > ========================================================= > > "Magic Commands": > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > to start it up gain click here: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. > > Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. > >========================================================= >"Magic Commands": >to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL >to start it up gain click here: >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. >Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > >All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 1999 by its original author. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================= "Magic Commands": to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL to start it up gain click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. 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