> -----Original Message-----
> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> The "[VOTE] Single Avalon Platform" was started by Aaron. The vote
> passed, although you decided not to participate.
Votes are not infallible. Communities can change directions especially
when they realize a mistake had been made. This is an important lesson
for all ASF communities.
In the case of the "Single Avalon Platform" it was a goal we all shared.
However, we disagreed on the means. Particularly, (speaking of the ASF
not caring about Avalon users), some of us felt that we did not need to
jetison our existing code and users of ECM/Fortress and the Framework to
get there. Others felt the only way to move forward was to bury the past
code and users.
In the end it came down to a mandate that the Avalon PMC and community had
a responsibility to support the existing Framework (4.x) and if we could
not do so, we needed to find others who would. Despite several attempts,
it was apparent that Avalon, in its current condition, could not satisfy
that mandate, so the code was moved to a community which would.
> > proceeded to engineer consensus by attrition,
> I am sick and tired of hearing this about Steve (just because something is
> said enough many times, doesn't make it true), so let's bring out some
The "consensus by attrition" charge is NOT a myth.
The example which you bring up is not the basis for my coining the phrase
"Consensus by Attrition" to describe Stephen's tatics. That philosophy
was developed over years, not one incident. It was bluntly discussed in
many emails, public and private. In fact, Niclas, why don't you open up
all the [EMAIL PROTECTED] archives? I seem to remember quite a few
conversations by the Metro TLP team about wanting to, what was it?, "clean
up the kitchen" or "take out the trash" in reference to cleaning up the
"dead" committers in Avalon. There was an active decision by members of
the Avalon (Merlin) community to _purge_ those who disagreed with the
"Single Avalon Platform", moreover, those who disagreed with a specific
implementation plan. I can assure you that despite what has been
suggested, there was no such conspiracy by the Board, the ASF Members, or
any other group of Avalon committers to do the same.
I'm sorry you've got an ax to grind with Greg. His comment was _not_
about defending Leo Sutic. You took it personally when it was never
intended to be taken personal. Everyone has apologized but you have
refused to move beyond it.
> In the end, there was a lot of "mouth" and very little "action" from one
> camp, and very much "backing your mouth with action" in the other.
Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as poisonous
as Avalon was at the time? The only ones willing to keep committing were
those who were determined to bulldoze there agenda into the repository.
> The proposal of splitting into both Excalibur and Merlin TLPs are a result
> of all these flamewars. To be frank, at that time, Merlin was the
> technically different project. It had expanded the scope of Avalon by a
> magnitude, yet members of the Board encourages us to withdraw the proposal
> and forge ahead within Avalon. The people who didn't like Merlin, started
> Excalibur, i.e. 'old Avalon without Framework'.
I argued for the separate TLPs for a long time. It would have been a
great solution. There was definitely some misunderstanding about why we
(Avalon) felt we needed the new TLPs. Not everyone understood the
development goals of the two communities (Excalibur and Merlin) and how
they were different. Maybe we didn't explain it well enough. We
But it wasn't lack of "differentiation on technology" that scuttled our
plans. It wasn't a lack of technical maturity, it was a lack of community
maturity. Community health is the chief concern of the Board when
approving TLPs, whereas many Merlin TLP proponents didn't even recognize
that this was a valid concern. There wasn't a willingness to work
together. Instead, there was an underlying assumption that Merlin
_deserved_ to be a TLP without question. When questions arose, instead of
working together, the Merlin team went on the defensive and then the
attack. This, above and beyond anything else, ruined Merlin's chances.
> In retrospect, do I regret that we now are active outside ASF? No, not at
Then why in the world are you bringing your grief back here?
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