Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think
it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say
I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.

For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances
that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical
dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be
okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a
dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.

There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre ones,
honestly.

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <
[email protected]> wrote:

> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any
> sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>
> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I
> like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens
> solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does
> not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in
> Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples
> include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right
> and left thru.)
>
> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances
> would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are 
> specifically
> accounted for in the flow and timing.
>
> Neal Schlein
> Librarian, MSLIS
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can often
>> replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
>>> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
>>> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>,
>>> in case it's useful to anyone!
>>>
>>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and pass
>>> through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x and
>>> right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and are
>>> often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
>>> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
>>> of it.)
>>> --
>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>> 917.279.8194
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
>>>> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
>>>> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
>>>> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
>>>> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>>>
>>>> —jh—
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>>>>
>>>>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with a
>>>>> CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment
>>>>> style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo.
>>>>> (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand
>>>>> around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in part
>>>>> because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn 
>>>>> figure)
>>>>> followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of
>>>>> the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>>>>>>>    - A swing into a circle right
>>>>>>>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plenty other bad flow examples
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>>>>>>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/[email protected]?anonymous&ep=signature>
>>>>>>>  Book
>>>>>>> time to meet with me
>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/[email protected]/bookings/>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>> [email protected]>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* New Contra Callers List <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a
>>>>>>> phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances
>>>>>>> with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of
>>>>>>> the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do 
>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>> can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
>>>>>>> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not 
>>>>>>> really a
>>>>>>> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing 
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing 
>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
>>>>>>> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that 
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the 
>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same 
>>>>>>> direction
>>>>>>> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last 
>>>>>>> Friday
>>>>>>> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a
>>>>>>> personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition 
>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>> figures.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>>>>>>> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
>>>>>>> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
>>>>>>> Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>> > My list so far:
>>>>>>> > 1. do-si-do across
>>>>>>> > 2. right chain after a swing
>>>>>>> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>>>>>>> > 4. Shadow swings
>>>>>>> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>>>>>>
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