Carlton,

I read your response, and I think what you said is very important. I would
like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind. I'm not trying to back
you into a corner; I'm trying to understand what you see with your teaching
and getting insight from that.

Do you think it makes sense to have beginners working off non-LTS versions?
Personally, I think the LTS is the version that beginner's should run.
They're "real" projects are likely to take longer, and they aren't going to
want to track the latest and greatest. I also think that any non-LTS
version of the docs should have a similar heading to the dev version to
suggest that beginners likely would benefit from using the latest LTS
version.

How many people coming to your trainings are running a stable/enterprise
Linux distro? It's pretty quick to get the right version for Windows. As
far as Linux, I would expect to see mainly the big couple Linux distros.
The more esoteric rolling releases should obviously be fine due to their
rolling nature. Therefore, I want to just do an analysis. As far as
supported Ubuntu releases go, 18.04LTS and all supported non-LTS are fine.
Ubuntu 16.04 and 14.04 are both LTS version and still supported by
Canonical. I believe Mint still follows Ubuntu. As far as Debian, testing
and unstable have 3.7, but stable has 3.5.3. As far as Fedora, Version 26
and above have python 3.6 or newer. I believe we've discussed RHEL/CentOS,
but it appears that anything before 8 doesn't have Python 3 at all, and the
CentOS7 SCL has Python 3.6 in it. I don't know which other Linux distros
are still generally relevant. I don't know the OSX world, but I assume you
can get a binary installer that's no harder than any other Python version.

On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 3:10 AM Carlton Gibson <carlton.gib...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I worry about us making this kind of decision in the rarified air of the
> developer mailing list. It's a technical question yes, but it affects the
> entire community.
>
> I think, here, we underplay just how hard it is for people out there. IMO
> expecting that people suffering from massive information overload to
> successfully switch docs version is already setting the bar too high.
> People really struggle.
>
> I'll give you one concrete example.
>
> Teaching DjangoGirls in Barcelona, one student—presumably for EXACTLY the
> kind of version mis-match we're talking about here—had her project created
> with a different version of the template than everybody else's. It didn't
> have contrib.staticfiles in INSTALLED_APPS. As such, where everyone else
> was able to deploy, her deployment failed. In the end there were
> instructors from three tables around here laptop trying who-knows-what in
> the shell before it was worked out and resolved. ("Try `collectstatic`
> locally" led to the answer.)
>
> Without those instructors present that student would have been stuck at
> that point, and lost.
>
> I don't have figures, and we never hear from most of these people, but I
> guess this sort of difficulty happens a lot.
> A quick scan of django-users suggests it's all the time.
>
> > ...there's a new test failure after a recent patch due to
> non-deterministic dict ordering in Python 3.5 which demonstrates the sort
> of minor annoyances that take time away from making useful improvements to
> Django.
>
> It's not that I don't hear you hear. I do.
>
> It's just that I think of this as an accessibility issue, and
> accessibility is a feature too.
>
> For me, if the cost of including someone is that we have to use
> OrderedDict for a wee-bit longer, then so be it.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Carlton
>
>
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-- 
Joe Tennies
tenn...@gmail.com

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