On Friday 08 June 2007 14:49:11 Torgny Tholerus wrote:
>  Bruno Marchal skrev:
> Le 07-juin-07, à 15:47, Torgny Tholerus a écrit :
> When I look at you (in 3rd person view), I see that you are constructed in
> exactly the same way as I am. So I know why you say that you are conscious.
> I know nothing sure about you, but the most probable conclusion is that you
> are equally unconscious as I am.
>  Actually I do think like Quentin. I don't think you can *know* anything if
> you are not conscious. Knowing is a sort of truth awareness, albeit
> incommunicable as such.
>  By "knowing" I mean the same thing as when you say that a computer "knows"
> what are the countries in Europa if you ask the computer: "What are the
> countries in Europa?", and the computer answers: "Sweden, Norway, Denmark,
> Finland, ...".  I mean nothing more with the term "know" than just this,
> you have some data stored, and you can use this data in some way. 
> "Knowing" <===> "Using knowledge".

I see that you like to redifine terms with your on definition.

Taking your definition, a database engine can know... which is totally wrong.

A database engine store information and has methods to retrieve it, but the 
database engine itself doesn't know anything about the information it 
stores... to know it, it must understand it, have awareness of the 
information. Knowing demands a knower, a consciousness.

The definition of "to know" in contemporary dictionnary is: 

#  To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty.
# To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won't fail.
# To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in: 
knows how to cook.
# To have fixed in the mind: knows her Latin verbs.
# To have experience of: "a black stubble that had known no razor" (William 

   1. To perceive as familiar; recognize: I know that face.
   2. To be acquainted with: He doesn't know his neighbors.

# To be able to distinguish; recognize as distinct: knows right from wrong.
# To discern the character or nature of: knew him for a liar.

All these definitions requires a knower, a knower is something which has 
awareness of the information it knows. Your definition does not enter in the 
common definition of "to know something".

Beside, I don't see how denying "consciousness" answer the problem... 
Redefining terms does not make the problem goes away.

Quentin Anciaux

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