anyways... I'm reconciled with you guys.... I'll try not to play nicer yet
remain a critic.

p.s. I'm no mathematician, computer scientist, or physicist.... I was
schooled in the humanities and avoided mathematics like the plague....... so
I will need to ask you guys in the future to translate things into simple
English.

I hope this is not necessarily like Plato's academy: "Let no one ignorant of
mathematics enter here"

surely there must be a way to express your ideas in plain English.


On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:25 AM, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Russell: "Yet the
>
> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds "
>
> Why do you say such things? How can you know that?
>
> IF this is true, then how did you get into the position to know this? How
> did you derive a true metanarrative from a "confabulation".
>
> IF all that we know and perceive is false, how do we assume that idea is
> then uniquely and exclusively true?
>
> I have heard that theory that the brain constructs our perception of
> reality, but I don't buy it... because I would ask.... how could we know
> that, it is contradictory.... they derive such a notion from a study of the
> reality (the brain etc.) that they say the "brain" "constructs".... they are
> just speculating from what seemingly makes sense to them....
>
> "not one scrap of evidence that
> that reality exists independently of our minds."
>
> people die, all the time... they get burried and life on earth continues...
> the pyramids stay up... species propagate.... babies are born.... mozart is
> still played... and people still cognize these thoughts.
>
>
> I don't think the choice is between a belief in some socalled physical
> reductionism or some noetic reductionism....
>
> nor between an objectively existing reality or a hallucination or
> construction of reality via the brain (which itself is a hallucination or
> construction, no?) this makes no sense.
>
> I think we simply don't know. agnosticism is best.
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>wrote:
>
>> Constantine, this is a rather trollish comment coming from an ignorant
>> position.
>>
>> Let me put the following gedanken experiment - consider the
>> possibility that T. Rex might be either green or blue creatures, and
>> that either possibility is physically consistent with everything we
>> know about them. In a Multiverse (such as we consider here), we are in
>> a superposition of histories, which include both green and blue
>> T. Rexes.
>>
>> Then one day, someone discovers an exquisitely fossilised T. Rex
>> feather, from which it is possible to determine the T. Rex's colour by
>> means of photonics. Let us say, that the colour was determined to be
>> green to everybody's satisfaction. But there is an alternate universe,
>> where the colour was determined to be blue. This universe has now
>> differentiated from our own, on the single fact of T. Rex colour.
>>
>> The question is, when was the colour of the dinosaur established as a
>> fact? Many of us many worlders would argue it wasn't established
>> until the photonics measurement was made - there was no 'matter of
>> fact' about the dinosaur colour prior to that.
>>
>> Generalising from this, it is quite plausible that suns and stars did
>> not exist prior to there being minds to perceive them. It is somewhat
>> disorienting to realise this possibility, ingrained as we are from
>> birth to believing in a directly perecived external reality. Yet the
>> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds - a
>> confabulation as it were, and there is not one scrap of evidence that
>> that reality exists independently of our minds.
>>
>> BTW Bruno is not assuming that consciousnes preceded matter, he is
>> instead assuming that consciousness is the result of the running of
>> some computer program, as I'm sure he would tell you. The consequence
>> of that latter assumption is that perceived reality is just that - a
>> perception.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 08:14:23PM -0700, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:
>> > Bruno assumes that consciousness preceded matter....
>> >
>> > then why do we only find consciousness as a terrestrial phenomena
>> > (suns and stars aren't conscious).. and as a later stage terrestrial
>> > phenomena for that matter.... i.e. water, plants, minerals etc. are
>> > not conscious..... and intellect and understanding in any real sense
>> > are found in even later stage terrestrial forms, and we have physical
>> > explanations for this.......
>> >
>> > Bruno sins against naturalism and all that we know and intuit.
>> >
>> > He will do anything to resurrect from the dead some rudimentary and
>> > vague Mysticism.
>> >
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>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>> Principal, High Performance Coders
>> Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>> University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>>
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