FWIW, I think a smart guy like you can appreciate that some technical
competence is required to be able to truly criticize a technical idea.
I used to hang out on an artificial intelligence forum that was
plagued by a guy who insisted on critiquing AI every chance he got,
but he had never programmed a computer or had any competence of even
interest in computer science. I'll stop way short of saying technical
competence is required to engage in the dialogue - however, I think
some humility goes a long way if one doesn't have a grasp of the some
of the core ideas.

Best,
Terren

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 1:28 PM, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> anyways... I'm reconciled with you guys.... I'll try not to play nicer yet
> remain a critic.
>
> p.s. I'm no mathematician, computer scientist, or physicist.... I was
> schooled in the humanities and avoided mathematics like the plague....... so
> I will need to ask you guys in the future to translate things into simple
> English.
>
> I hope this is not necessarily like Plato's academy: "Let no one ignorant of
> mathematics enter here"
>
> surely there must be a way to express your ideas in plain English.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:25 AM, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Russell: "Yet the
>> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds "
>>
>> Why do you say such things? How can you know that?
>>
>> IF this is true, then how did you get into the position to know this? How
>> did you derive a true metanarrative from a "confabulation".
>>
>> IF all that we know and perceive is false, how do we assume that idea is
>> then uniquely and exclusively true?
>>
>> I have heard that theory that the brain constructs our perception of
>> reality, but I don't buy it... because I would ask.... how could we know
>> that, it is contradictory.... they derive such a notion from a study of the
>> reality (the brain etc.) that they say the "brain" "constructs".... they are
>> just speculating from what seemingly makes sense to them....
>>
>> "not one scrap of evidence that
>> that reality exists independently of our minds."
>>
>> people die, all the time... they get burried and life on earth
>> continues... the pyramids stay up... species propagate.... babies are
>> born.... mozart is still played... and people still cognize these thoughts.
>>
>>
>> I don't think the choice is between a belief in some socalled physical
>> reductionism or some noetic reductionism....
>>
>> nor between an objectively existing reality or a hallucination or
>> construction of reality via the brain (which itself is a hallucination or
>> construction, no?) this makes no sense.
>>
>> I think we simply don't know. agnosticism is best.
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Constantine, this is a rather trollish comment coming from an ignorant
>>> position.
>>>
>>> Let me put the following gedanken experiment - consider the
>>> possibility that T. Rex might be either green or blue creatures, and
>>> that either possibility is physically consistent with everything we
>>> know about them. In a Multiverse (such as we consider here), we are in
>>> a superposition of histories, which include both green and blue
>>> T. Rexes.
>>>
>>> Then one day, someone discovers an exquisitely fossilised T. Rex
>>> feather, from which it is possible to determine the T. Rex's colour by
>>> means of photonics. Let us say, that the colour was determined to be
>>> green to everybody's satisfaction. But there is an alternate universe,
>>> where the colour was determined to be blue. This universe has now
>>> differentiated from our own, on the single fact of T. Rex colour.
>>>
>>> The question is, when was the colour of the dinosaur established as a
>>> fact? Many of us many worlders would argue it wasn't established
>>> until the photonics measurement was made - there was no 'matter of
>>> fact' about the dinosaur colour prior to that.
>>>
>>> Generalising from this, it is quite plausible that suns and stars did
>>> not exist prior to there being minds to perceive them. It is somewhat
>>> disorienting to realise this possibility, ingrained as we are from
>>> birth to believing in a directly perecived external reality. Yet the
>>> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds - a
>>> confabulation as it were, and there is not one scrap of evidence that
>>> that reality exists independently of our minds.
>>>
>>> BTW Bruno is not assuming that consciousnes preceded matter, he is
>>> instead assuming that consciousness is the result of the running of
>>> some computer program, as I'm sure he would tell you. The consequence
>>> of that latter assumption is that perceived reality is just that - a
>>> perception.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 08:14:23PM -0700, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:
>>> > Bruno assumes that consciousness preceded matter....
>>> >
>>> > then why do we only find consciousness as a terrestrial phenomena
>>> > (suns and stars aren't conscious).. and as a later stage terrestrial
>>> > phenomena for that matter.... i.e. water, plants, minerals etc. are
>>> > not conscious..... and intellect and understanding in any real sense
>>> > are found in even later stage terrestrial forms, and we have physical
>>> > explanations for this.......
>>> >
>>> > Bruno sins against naturalism and all that we know and intuit.
>>> >
>>> > He will do anything to resurrect from the dead some rudimentary and
>>> > vague Mysticism.
>>> >
>>> > --
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>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>>> Principal, High Performance Coders
>>> Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>>> University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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