FWIW, I think a smart guy like you can appreciate that some technical competence is required to be able to truly criticize a technical idea. I used to hang out on an artificial intelligence forum that was plagued by a guy who insisted on critiquing AI every chance he got, but he had never programmed a computer or had any competence of even interest in computer science. I'll stop way short of saying technical competence is required to engage in the dialogue - however, I think some humility goes a long way if one doesn't have a grasp of the some of the core ideas.
Best, Terren On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 1:28 PM, B Soroud <[email protected]> wrote: > anyways... I'm reconciled with you guys.... I'll try not to play nicer yet > remain a critic. > > p.s. I'm no mathematician, computer scientist, or physicist.... I was > schooled in the humanities and avoided mathematics like the plague....... so > I will need to ask you guys in the future to translate things into simple > English. > > I hope this is not necessarily like Plato's academy: "Let no one ignorant of > mathematics enter here" > > surely there must be a way to express your ideas in plain English. > > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:25 AM, B Soroud <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Russell: "Yet the >> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds " >> >> Why do you say such things? How can you know that? >> >> IF this is true, then how did you get into the position to know this? How >> did you derive a true metanarrative from a "confabulation". >> >> IF all that we know and perceive is false, how do we assume that idea is >> then uniquely and exclusively true? >> >> I have heard that theory that the brain constructs our perception of >> reality, but I don't buy it... because I would ask.... how could we know >> that, it is contradictory.... they derive such a notion from a study of the >> reality (the brain etc.) that they say the "brain" "constructs".... they are >> just speculating from what seemingly makes sense to them.... >> >> "not one scrap of evidence that >> that reality exists independently of our minds." >> >> people die, all the time... they get burried and life on earth >> continues... the pyramids stay up... species propagate.... babies are >> born.... mozart is still played... and people still cognize these thoughts. >> >> >> I don't think the choice is between a belief in some socalled physical >> reductionism or some noetic reductionism.... >> >> nor between an objectively existing reality or a hallucination or >> construction of reality via the brain (which itself is a hallucination or >> construction, no?) this makes no sense. >> >> I think we simply don't know. agnosticism is best. >> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Russell Standish <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> Constantine, this is a rather trollish comment coming from an ignorant >>> position. >>> >>> Let me put the following gedanken experiment - consider the >>> possibility that T. Rex might be either green or blue creatures, and >>> that either possibility is physically consistent with everything we >>> know about them. In a Multiverse (such as we consider here), we are in >>> a superposition of histories, which include both green and blue >>> T. Rexes. >>> >>> Then one day, someone discovers an exquisitely fossilised T. Rex >>> feather, from which it is possible to determine the T. Rex's colour by >>> means of photonics. Let us say, that the colour was determined to be >>> green to everybody's satisfaction. But there is an alternate universe, >>> where the colour was determined to be blue. This universe has now >>> differentiated from our own, on the single fact of T. Rex colour. >>> >>> The question is, when was the colour of the dinosaur established as a >>> fact? Many of us many worlders would argue it wasn't established >>> until the photonics measurement was made - there was no 'matter of >>> fact' about the dinosaur colour prior to that. >>> >>> Generalising from this, it is quite plausible that suns and stars did >>> not exist prior to there being minds to perceive them. It is somewhat >>> disorienting to realise this possibility, ingrained as we are from >>> birth to believing in a directly perecived external reality. Yet the >>> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds - a >>> confabulation as it were, and there is not one scrap of evidence that >>> that reality exists independently of our minds. >>> >>> BTW Bruno is not assuming that consciousnes preceded matter, he is >>> instead assuming that consciousness is the result of the running of >>> some computer program, as I'm sure he would tell you. The consequence >>> of that latter assumption is that perceived reality is just that - a >>> perception. >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 08:14:23PM -0700, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote: >>> > Bruno assumes that consciousness preceded matter.... >>> > >>> > then why do we only find consciousness as a terrestrial phenomena >>> > (suns and stars aren't conscious).. and as a later stage terrestrial >>> > phenomena for that matter.... i.e. water, plants, minerals etc. are >>> > not conscious..... and intellect and understanding in any real sense >>> > are found in even later stage terrestrial forms, and we have physical >>> > explanations for this....... >>> > >>> > Bruno sins against naturalism and all that we know and intuit. >>> > >>> > He will do anything to resurrect from the dead some rudimentary and >>> > vague Mysticism. >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups "Everything List" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > [email protected]. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >>> Principal, High Performance Coders >>> Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected] >>> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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