Russell: "an interpretation of the sensory data stream based on
our already constructed theories and beliefs. "

To me the notion of "sensory data stream" is a interpretation of our bare
and naive "perception"... based on -your- theories and beliefs....

I don't believe in the model that says the world is our brains model of the
world... to me that clearly sounds absurd.

how could we know this?..... our brain is a model of itself?

our understanding of vision is still indefinitive. some people think we know
it, but I don't.

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 10:25:21AM -0700, B Soroud wrote:
> > Russell: "Yet the
> > reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds "
> >
> > Why do you say such things? How can you know that?
>
> Many people working in cognitive science seem to be in agreement on
> this point. For a discussion, I would refer you to the book by Dan
> Dennett ("Consiousness explained"), or the one I'm reading at the
> moment (David Deutsch's "Beginning of Infinity"). I have a copy of
> Steven Pinker's "How the Mind Works" - I can't tell you if it also
> makes the same claim, as  haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I'd
> be surprised if it said something different.
>
> >
> > IF this is true, then how did you get into the position to know this? How
> > did you derive a true metanarrative from a "confabulation".
> >
> > IF all that we know and perceive is false, how do we assume that idea is
> > then uniquely and exclusively true?
> >
>
> Nobody is claiming that all we know and perceive is false. But it is a
> confabulation - an interpretation of the sensory data stream based on
> our already constructed theories and beliefs. The phenomena of false
> memories is merely the starkest manifestations of this (in that case
> the "knowledge" is false - quotes to pacify Bruno :).
>
> ... snip ...
>
> > "not one scrap of evidence that
> > that reality exists independently of our minds."
> >
> > people die, all the time... they get burried and life on earth
> continues...
> > the pyramids stay up... species propagate.... babies are born.... mozart
> is
> > still played... and people still cognize these thoughts.
> >
>
> Have you experienced death? Can you experience these other things you
> talk of without your mind? That they exist independently of our
> perceptions is just a theory. One that happens to be incompatible with
> theory that our minds are computer programs.
>
> >
> > I don't think the choice is between a belief in some socalled physical
> > reductionism or some noetic reductionism....
> >
>
> I wouldn't think so either :).
>
> > nor between an objectively existing reality or a hallucination or
> > construction of reality via the brain (which itself is a hallucination or
> > construction, no?) this makes no sense.
> >
> > I think we simply don't know. agnosticism is best.
>
> That is largely giving up. We can know some things.
>
>
> --
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders
> Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
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