On Jul 22, 1:53 am, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 7:43 PM, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > On Jul 21, 11:55 pm, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 4:55 PM, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > Assume both matter and number relations exist. With comp, the > > existence > > > > of > > > > > number relations explains the existence of matter, but the existence > > of > > > > > matter does not explain the existence of number relations. > > > > > Yes it does. Any number relation that has ever been grasped by > > > > anybody exists in their mind, and therefore in their brain. And as > > > > for the ungrasped ones...so what? It can make no difference > > > > if they are there or not. > > > > Perhaps if those "ungrasped ones" did not exist then we might not exist. > > It > > > is premature to say their existence does not make a difference to us. > > > The existence of matter can explain the existence of numbers. > > The reverse might also be the case, but that is not a disproof. > > > > I think may also be incorrect to say we need to grasp numbers or their > > > relations for them to matter. Consider this example: I generate a large > > > random number X, with no obvious factors (I think it is prime), but when > > I > > > compute (y^(X - 1)) and divide by X (where y is not a multiple of X), I > > find > > > the remainder is not 1. This means X is not prime: it has factors other > > > than 1 and X, but I haven't grasped what those factors are. Nor is there > > > any efficient method for finding out what they are. > > > > Now the existence of these ungrasped numbers does make a difference. If > > I > > > attempted to build an RSA key using X and another legitimately prime > > number > > > (instead of two prime numbers), then the encryption won't work properly. > > I > > > won't be able to determine a private key because I don't know all the > > > factors. > > > The contingent fact that is your failure to grasp a mathematical > > truth is makes a difference. > > Just above you said mathematical objects only exist if they exist physically > in some brain. This is a case where the factors are not only unknown by me, > but likely unknown by anyone in the observable universe. > > > Mathematical truths are not contingent, > > so > > what difference can they make? > > If they are not contingent then you accept they exist even without the > existence of the physical universe?

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No. They are epistemically necessary. That says nothing about their existence. The argument is that since they can make no difference, they should be assumed to have no mind independent existence. > If so, then see my post in the other > thread where I explain how mathematical truth can explain the existence of > life and consciousness. > > Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.