Re: Bruno's blasphemy.

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On 21 Jul 2011, at 20:30, meekerdb wrote:```
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```On 7/21/2011 11:03 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
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On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:54 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
```On 7/21/2011 2:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

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Axiomatics are already in Platonia so of course that forces computation to be there.
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The computations are concrete relations.

If the are concrete then we should be able to point to them.

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If your mind is a computer, you don't even need to point to them, everything you see and experience is direct evidence of the existence of the computation implementing your mind.
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Also, I don't think the "point test" works for everything that has a concrete existence. How would a many-worlder point to the other branches of the wave function, or an eternalist point to the past? How would an AI or human in a virtual environment point to the concrete computer that is rendering its environment?
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They don't need axioms to exist. Then the numbers relation can be described by some axiomatic.
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And one can regard the numbers as defined by their relations. So the "fundamental ontology" of numbers is reduced to a description of relations.
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Is a chair the same thing as a description of a chair, or an idea of a chair?
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The is no need to suppose they exist in the sense of tables and chairs.
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Assume both matter and number relations exist. With comp, the existence of number relations explains the existence of matter,
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That's the question. It seems that comp requires more than the existence of number relations, it requires the existence of a UD or equivalent.
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Not at all. The UD is a collection of number relation, and its existence is a theorem in elementary arithmetic.
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```It requires the existence of all computation.
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That is Sigma_1 truth. That is contained in a tiny fragment of provable truth in elementary arithmetic.
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I see no reason to suppose these exist, at least not in any conventional meaning of 'exist'.
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It exists in the sense of "even numbers exist".

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It certainly doesn't follow from my saying "Yes" to the doctor that I believe they exist.
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It does follow.

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It also has the problem that it explains too much - the white rabbit problem.
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But that is *the* interesting things. Matter become a mathematical problem. You can refute comp by showing that there is too much white rabbits. But the logic of self-reference shows that it is not trivial. The logic S4Grz1, X1* and Z1* explains already why the white rabbits might be very rare, perhaps even more rare than with QM.
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but the existence of matter does not explain the existence of number relations.
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It may not explain them, but it exemplifies them. And in fact that's how we learn what numbers are and how to count - long before we learn Peano's axioms and Cantor's diagonalization.
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That is normal. We are embedded in the reality of numbers, and cannot see the numbers before seeing matter. This is explain in the theory.
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It is therefore a simpler theory to suppose the existence of number relations is fundamental and the appearance of matter is a consequence, than to suppose both exist independently of each other.
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Simpler, yes. But then, "God did it" and "Everything exists." are simple too. An explanation with no predictive power isn't much of an explanation.
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It predicts physics and consciousness. Quantitively and qualitatively. OK, it has not YET find a new particle, and that might take time. But the theory explains much more than physics has ever explain, and this with much fewer assumptions.
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Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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