On 2/10/2012 8:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 10 Feb 2012, at 13:47, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 2/10/2012 7:25 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2012/2/10 Craig Weinberg <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
On Feb 10, 4:06 am, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> 2012/2/9 Craig Weinberg <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>
> > On Feb 9, 9:49 am, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> > > 2012/2/9 Craig Weinberg <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>
> > > > > > How does a gear or lever have an opinion?
>
> > > > > The problems with gears and levers is dumbness.
>
> > > > Does putting a billion gears and levers together in an
arrangement
> > > > make them less dumb? Does it start having opinions at
some point?
>
> > > Does putting a billions neurons together in an arrangement
make them less
> > > dumb ? Does it start having opinions at some point ?
>
> > No, because neurons are living organisms in the first place, not
> > gears.
>
> At which point does it start having an opinions ?
At every point when it is alive.
That's not true, does a single neuron has an opinion ? two ? a
thousand ?
We may not call them opinions
Don't switch subject.
because
we use that word to refer to an entire human being's experience, but
the point is that being a living cell makes it capable of having
different capacities than it does as a dead cell.
Yes and so what ? a dead cell *does not* behave like a living cell,
that's enough.
When it is dead,
there is no biological sense going on, only chemical detection-
reaction, which is time reversible. Biological sense isn't time
reversible.
> Why simulated neurons
> couldn't have opinions at that same point ? Vitalism ?
No, because there is no such thing as absolute simulation,
There is no need for an "absolute" simulation... what do you mean by
"absolute" ?
there is
only imitation. Simulation is an imitation
no, simulation is not imitation.
designed to invite us to
mistake it for genuine - which is adequate for things we don't care
about much, but awareness cannot be a mistake. It is the absolute
primary orientation, so it cannot ever be substituted. If you make
synthetic neurons which are very close to natural neurons on every
level, then you have a better chance of coming close enough that the
resulting organism is very similar to the original. A simulation
which
is not made of something that forms a cell by itself (an actual
cell,
not a virtual sculpture of a cell) probably has no possibility of
graduating from time reversible detection-reaction to other
categories
of sense, feeling, awareness, perception, and consciousness,
just as a
CGI picture
A CGI picture *is a picture* not a simulation.
of a neuron has no chance of producing milliliters of
actual serotonin, acetylcholine, glutamate,etc.
Is it needed for consciousness ? why ?
Craig
Hi,
How would your reasoning work for a virus? Is it "alive"? I think
that the notion of "being alive" is not a property of the parts but
of the whole.
Which is the very basic idea sustaining comp. But Craig seems to
defend the opposite idea. He believes that life, sense, and
consciousness must be present in the part to sum up in the whole. A
mechanist will insist that it is the property of the whole which is
responsible for the higher order aptitude, like being able to play
chess, or having a private experience.
Hi Bruno,
No. Craig can be considered to be exploring the implications of
Chalmer's claim that consciousness is a fundamental property of the
physical, like mass, spin and charge, i.e. it is not emergent from
matter. His concept of "sense" is not much different from your 1p or the
content of a "simulation".
Yet, the case of "living" and "conscious" are not entirely equivalent,
and should be treated differently. The definition of life seems to me
conventional, but being conscious is everything but conventional.
We agree on that! "Living" does seem to be 3p definable while
"conscious" is only 1p definable.
Onward!
Stephen
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