On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 5:40 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

>  > You are placed in a closed room and anesthesized.  While you are
> unconscious you are moved to an identical room in Moscow.  You wake up.
> There has been an enormous change in your position but you are not aware of
> it.

And in your example there is a zero change in your consciousness,
absolutely ZERO. How can I be so certain of that? You answered that
question yourself,  because "you are not aware of it".

 > > Show me a example of a change being made between 2 conscious beings
> that resulted in a enormous difference between them,
 > They are both anethesitized and ...

Position is irrelevant because there is no unique position to
consciousness, good thing too otherwise we'd loose our identity every time
we moved.

 >> and yet the individual themselves could detect no subjective change and
>> still saw themselves as so similar that even they themselves could not tell
>> themselves apart,  and a third party objective observer could not detect a
>> difference between them either, not even theoretically.
> > The third party could tell the difference between them because as
> classical objects they have definite spacetime histories.

But there is no way you can know the original and his identical copy can
have a unique position ("definite spacetime histories" is too pompous for
my taste) because for all you know, and for all they know, and for all the
universe knows, those 2 identical objects, the copy and the original, could
be exchanging position 10^44 times a second.  And definite spacetime
histories of what? You are always recycling your atoms, do you loose part
of your identity every time you take a piss? Do you need to make a separate
spacetime diagram for every atom that was once part of your body when you
were in the third grade?

> >>     he'd just be in new positions.
> >What do you mean "he'd"??  Since they are no longer each other, they can
> no longer be (in the sense of identity) the Helsinki man.
> Why on Earth not??? You people can't seem to get it through your head that
the Helsinki man HAS BEEN DUPLICATED, as a result the Helsinki man has no
difficulty whatsoever being in 2 places at the same time, that is what
duplicated means for god's sake! And once a identical copy has been made
environmental forces can cause those 2 identical things to differentiate
and evolve differently.

 > I'm not identical with who I was a minute ago.

So is the one minute ago you dead? If so then the Helsinki man is dead in
the same way, in other words not very dead.

> You seem to have trouble noticing that the same English word has
> different meanings.

And you can't grasp that pronouns can be ambiguous.

 John K Clark

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