On 3/17/2012 9:45 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 5:40 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

    > You are placed in a closed room and anesthesized.  While you are 
unconscious you
    are moved to an identical room in Moscow.  You wake up.  There has been an 
    change in your position but you are not aware of it.

And in your example there is a zero change in your consciousness, absolutely ZERO. How can I be so certain of that? You answered that question yourself, because "you are not aware of it".

So what? I wrote "There are many possible enormous changes that could happen without you being aware of them." Where did I say there was a change in your consciousness that you were not aware of? Please do not attribute to me things I didn't write.

    > > Show me a example of a change being made between 2 conscious beings that
    resulted in a enormous difference between them,

    > They are both anethesitized and ...

Position is irrelevant because there is no unique position to consciousness, good thing too otherwise we'd loose our identity every time we moved.

Where did I say otherwise?

        >> and yet the individual themselves could detect no subjective change 
and still
        saw themselves as so similar that even they themselves could not tell 
        apart,  and a third party objective observer could not detect a 
between them either, not even theoretically.
    > The third party could tell the difference between them because as 
objects they have definite spacetime histories.

But there is no way you can know the original and his identical copy can have a unique position ("definite spacetime histories" is too pompous for my taste) because for all you know, and for all they know, and for all the universe knows, those 2 identical objects, the copy and the original, could be exchanging position 10^44 times a second.

And how would they do that?  By magic?  Of course if you invoke magic all bets 
are off.

And definite spacetime histories of what? You are always recycling your atoms, do you loose part of your identity every time you take a piss?

Definite in the sense of preserving continuity of structure and memory. Does your brain remain the same no matter what information you receive? Do you differentiate from who you were - as you suppose the man in Moscow does from the man in Washington. Can you manage to reconcile your inconsistent accounts?

Do you need to make a separate spacetime diagram for every atom that was once part of your body when you were in the third grade?

        >>     he'd just be in new positions.

        >What do you mean "he'd"??  Since they are no longer each other, they 
can no
        longer be (in the sense of identity) the Helsinki man.

Why on Earth not??? You people can't seem to get it through your head that the Helsinki man HAS BEEN DUPLICATED, as a result the Helsinki man has no difficulty whatsoever being in 2 places at the same time, that is what duplicated means for god's sake! And once a identical copy has been made environmental forces can cause those 2 identical things to differentiate and evolve differently.

And once they are differentiated they are not equal to each other. Can't you get it through your head that things different from one another cannot be equal to a third thing.


    > I'm not identical with who I was a minute ago.

So is the one minute ago you dead? If so then the Helsinki man is dead in the same way, in other words not very dead.

Being different is not the same as being dead.

    > You seem to have trouble noticing that the same English word has 
different meanings.

And you can't grasp that pronouns can be ambiguous.

You're the one that used "he'd" for two different people.


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