On 28 Apr 2012, at 16:34, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Apr 28, 4:29 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

Because by construction it eliminates consciousness.

When biologists eliminate the elan vital, by using chemistry instead,
there is a real progress because they eliminate a spurious linguistic
gap-type explanation by an explanation from conceptually more simple

But consciousness has never been proposed as an explanation of
something. On the contrary, it is more the fact that we search an
explanation for.

Biologist have not make life disappearing, they have truly explained
the phenomenon, from other well accepted phenomena.
But saying that AI or brain research can dispose of the notion of
consciousness is just eliminitivism of a fact.
And this non-explanation relies on another sort of spurious "elan
vital"-like notion: primitive matter/physicalism.

Agree with everything you've said here.

Cool. Especially if you really agree with the idea that primitive materialism is of the same type as élan vital.

Now comp explain both facts: the appearance of conscious
(incommunicable but knowable first person) truth and the appearance of
the beliefs in primitive matter, and this without need to postulate
more than what we already believe in (addition and multiplication) of

I almost agree but I think if we look closely at comp we will find
that it relies on even more primitive sense-making intuitions.

This is because you ignore the infinite non boundable power of the primitive sense-making number intuitions.

Addition and multiplication are rooted in the notion of self, other,
and self-similarity.

The contrary is easier to show. The self is rooted in the equation phi_x() = x, which is the most simple and concrete amoeba. The equation can be translated in term of addition and multiplication. The addition and multiplication you are talking about is the human intuition, which needs the concrete abstract amoeba, the "real" terrestrial ancestor amoeba, and many years of evolution. It is obviously more complex and tainted from human selves, and historical contingencies.

They require a sense-motive participation to
maintain a recursive process. Something has to know that something is
being computed, especially if that thing is what is doing the
computation. For this reason, I see that comp is a third elan vital-
like primitive, no more primary than either consciousness or matter.
What all three of these primordial concepts have in common is sense.
The ability to detect something, and detect it as being similar or
different from everything or nothing. Without the capacity to tune
into those kinds of symmetries, there can be no matter, no numbers,
and no consciousness.

Numbers tune quite well enough by themselves (allowing them to be added and multiplied).

The universe has to make sense before we can
make sense of it.

Sure. Like arithmetical truth has to make sense (realism) before numbers can support persons making sense of it.

Numbers are a kind of sense, as is matter, emotion
and mind.

OK. But comp provides a theory (computer science, arithmetic) explaining how numbers make sense. Indeed the theory explains also why they develop different points of view, and have hard time to conciliate them.



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